Chat log from the meeting on 2018-03-06

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- Discussion about a reverted patch to correctly display the number of faces of a tortured prim
- Missing Pics after migrating to another profile module
- Contents in databases doesn't get deleted even if the user deletes it from his inventory or region
- Asset- and script-caches can be shared among regions and OpenSim instances
- Andrew plans on taking a look at the destinations code next
- The birds module
- Issues with HG

[11:09] Arielle.Popstar looks to see whats new and exciting here:
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks I was looking at the changes to the httptests branch. I see the fix that Ubit added to correct a face counting issue has been reverted by someone whose name I don't recognize.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks That will reintroduce the texturing problem we were talking about a couple of weeks ago.
[11:12] George Equus: tortured prims not taking on some sides?
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar the note says: Remove the work around for sphere number of faces since as of commit 846f35 it initially has the correct number of faces and the workaround returns 2 more than the correct number of faces.
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks Ah, yes. It did say sphere.
[11:16] James.atLLOUD Is it unusual to have contributions by an unfamiliar author?
[11:17] TG.Lucan added to master by Melanie
[11:17] Bill.Blight yes she just tagged the other as the author of the patch
[11:18] Bill.Blight or the commit I should say
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks James, There have been very few people working on the OS code base so it was a surprise to see a contribution with a name I don't recognize.
[11:19] Bill.Blight Author mewtwo0641 <mewtwo0641 at gmail dot com>
Author date 2018-03-04 04:35:27
Author local date 2018-03-03 22:35:27 -0600
Committer Melanie Thielker <melanie at t-data dot com>
[11:19] James.atLLOUD OH ok, thanks. And I certainly wouldn't much of any perspective on contributers.
[11:19] Bill.Blight Melanie actually committed the change
[11:19] James.atLLOUD Great group tag @Matlilda
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar Hi Matilda
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill: ok. You are looking deeper in to the change than I am. I just ran "git log" to have a quick look for the changes taking place in the past week or so.
[11:20] Matilda Charron: thanks James
[11:20] Bill.Blight not too deep that was just by clicking on the commit
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar i dont see the Next button to view older gits on the opensim page
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks I don't have anything to click on when getting the log from the command line.
[11:21] Bill.Blight
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks Welcome to all of you that are here for the first time.
[11:21] Bill.Blight there is a more button right at the bottom
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar usually is but not seeing it for some reason Bill
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, I could find out more details. I just wasn't going to bother at this time.
[11:22] James.atLLOUD It would be sad to see a fix unfixed :)
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar oh there it behind hangouts icon
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks James, it happens sometimes if a fix causes other problems.
[11:23] Bill.Blight fix one break 15
[11:23] James.atLLOUD true, thanks Andrew.
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar features
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks I added a feature to Kicad that had some side effects. I need to more follow up on them before the next release comes out.
[11:24] TG.Lucan improve the number of sides code on SceneObjectPart by Ubit rendered the fix unnecessary, in fact returned an incorrect value
[11:24] Bill.Blight
[11:24] Bill.Blight was just lookign for that TG
[11:25] Matilda Charron: thank you Andrew
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks There hasn't been that many changes to the code this past week. Are there any other issues you want to talk about today?
[11:27] Matilda Charron: Just to mention that my picks have disappeared
[11:28] George Equus: Friend of mine is in process of buying a new computer system that can run anything not just Win 10. turns out can be problematic... hardware blocking everything else but 10..
[11:28] Matilda Charron: I do not look at my profile very often and I am not sure with the migration if they got lost
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks Matilda: If they don't reappar after a relog and/or clearing viewer cache you should report that to the people that run this grid.
[11:28] Matilda Charron: ok
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar yes they did Matilda. Look on the web section
[11:29] Matilda Charron: ok
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar which isnt working now :)
[11:29] James.atLLOUD UEFI ? @george?
[11:29] Matilda Charron: lol ok
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar Guess paela working on it
[11:30] George Equus: that is another problem James. No, is code from INTEL blocking installations
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar the flotsam cache commit say: do not timeout floatsam assets caching thread
[11:30] TG.Lucan would anyone know when an item is deleted from an inventory, is it removed from the database or just marked deleted?
[11:30] Bill.Blight just marked deleted
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar does that mean it will continue growing again?
[11:30] TG.Lucan thanks Bill
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks Ah, the grid has moved to the core profile module. Some profile data will disappear if they haven't migrated all the old profile data over from the PHP based version to core.
[11:31] Bill.Blight the reason being is assets are linked, so when there are multiple copies the assets really need to stay in the db in some fashion
[11:31] James.atLLOUD my limited db experience told me never delete :)
[11:31] Matilda Charron: ok
[11:31] TG.Lucan noted Bill, should have realized that :)
[11:32] Bill.Blight and if using FSassets, the assets are really immutable and only new copies with changes created
[11:32] TG.Lucan the thread time out is when the thread is idle for a period of time, which can happen on a quite region
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks TG.Lucan, when an item is deleted from your inventory it first moves to the trash can folder. When you empty your trash can the entry for the item is removed from your inventory. The asset record for the item still exists in the asset table.
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar oh ok so its not to do with how large the cache will get
[11:33] TG.Lucan kk Andrew
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, it doesn't have anything to do with caches.
[11:34] Bill.Blight Cache is just that , cache, it only caches assets you see or HAVE, not things that used to be in your inventory
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks One of the reasons for the use of caches is to cut down on the amount of time spent having to query the databases.
[11:35] James.atLLOUD Arielle, which grid were you discussing?
[11:35] TG.Lucan There is a watchdog that monitors threads which may have become orphaned
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar James i was discussing the commit that has this note: do not timeout floatsam assets caching thread
[11:35] Bill.Blight yes but the watchdog does nothing but tell you about them , it does not actually kill them
[11:36] TG.Lucan yes
[11:36] James.atLLOUD OH ok, I thought there was a grid that did some migrations with lost info.
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar i been seeing some very large region cache's so had to put a change to stop that
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, was there a lot of prims rezzed in the region?
[11:37] Bill.Blight (I have neutered the watchdog in my builds, as it was actually taking more CPU ticks telling me aobut the delayed threads than the delayed threads were actually taking)
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, :)
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar over time yes Andrew
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar but the asset cache just kept growing
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar where it used to be set to 48 hours
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, It is supposed to expire items from the cache over time.
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks bbiab
[11:38] Bill.Blight the asset cache also caches user inventory so the more people that land the more it will grow, seemingly to infinity, if it does not time out, personally never seen the time out fail to expire
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm back
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, are you using memory cache or disk cache? What time values did you set?
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar i didnt, i left it at default initially
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar it was set to never expire
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar flotsam.ini/
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks If it is caching assets from visitors to the region that would make it tend to grow over time if it isn't set to expire old entries.
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks I also just noticed there is the setting -> UpdateFileTimeOnCacheHit = false
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar back on .8.2 FileCacheTimeout=48
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks If that is set to True it could prevent items from expiring.
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar anyway thinking it is a different thing
[11:43] Bill.Blight yep andrew that is exactly it, if that is set, keeps disk activity lower
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar that commit was for a thread, not the cache itself
[11:44] Bill.Blight the other thing that could be happening, is if this is on windows, you could be running into windows file locking and the cache is not actually being deleted
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, what value did you set for FileCleanupTimer?
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar initially left on default but then when i seen the cache take up all the drive space, i started to set it to 48 hours
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar thats on .9
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, I've seen Windows say that a file is locked. That can be a pain to get sorted.
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks The cleanup time defaults to 0 which would mean it won't clear items from the cache.
[11:45] Bill.Blight yes I have seen it require starting in safe mode to clear files
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, I would set a clean up timer that is less than the expiry time. Have you set Flotsam to cache data on a per region basis or is it a cache shared by multiple regions?
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar per region
[11:47] Andrew.Hellershanks ok
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar didnt know it could be shared
[11:48] Bill.Blight assetcache, scriptengines can be shared
[11:48] Andrew.Hellershanks It could be shared if you used the same directory name for the asset cache location setting.
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar in the same instance?
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar or multiple too?
[11:48] Bill.Blight or in multiple instances
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar oh right on the top of the flotsam.ini :)
[11:49] Andrew.Hellershanks Right.
[11:49] Bill.Blight sharing scriptengine cache is nice, if you start clean, I would not reccommend it for "converting"
[11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks By default the path to the cache is relative. If you use an absolute path, or one that points to some other shared directory then the cache can be shared by multiple regions.
[11:50] Andrew.Hellershanks It can be a way to save some disk space if your space is limited but it may complicate expiring entries from the cache.
[11:50] Bill.Blight for instance instead of ./assetcache, /home/opensim/sharedassetcache
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: what about on a windows machine? c:\
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: As Bill pointed out, you can do a similar thing with the setting for the scriptengines directory.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, right.
[11:51] Bill.Blight on windows would be like c:\sharedassetcache
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: ok
[11:52] Bill.Blight but personally, get a second HD
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: cool ty
[11:52] Bill.Blight don't run opensim on your system drive if you can help it
[11:52] Bill.Blight for a couple of reasons
[11:52] Bill.Blight if your system crashes, you don't loose all your opensim stuff
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: The leading \ should be enough to point to the root directory of the drive from which the region instance is running (in case it isn't the C: drive).
[11:53] Bill.Blight the other is your system drive is your busiest drive on your PC , and can slow opensim down
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, that is why you keep backups. :)
[11:53] Matilda Charron: lol
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: even if a dedicated server machine ?
[11:53] Bill.Blight does not matter windows is windows
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:54] Bill.Blight swap space is on the system drive normally which makes it very busy
[11:54] Matilda Charron: Bill, when you say start clean for the sharing scriptengine... what do you mean by starting clean?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: It can if your machine is needing to use swap space.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: If it is using swap you may need to add more memory (if the motherboard permits).
[11:55] Bill.Blight I mean you can combine your asset caches, but would not combine your scriptengine cache ...
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: A machine using swap is going to be running slower.
[11:55] Bill.Blight I guess I left that out when I said that
[11:55] Bill.Blight by default windows uses a pagefile
[11:55] Bill.Blight which is swap space
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: You can combine the scriptengines folder in to one place but it isn't shared the way it is done with the assets cache.
[11:56] Bill.Blight default windows config includes pagefile.sys and generally a hibernation file
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: The scriptengines directory has sub-directories that are the UUID of a region.
[11:57] Matilda Charron: I think I will leave the scriptengine as it is then
[11:57] George Equus: Hibernation file would not exist on a server running 24/7
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: you running .9.* Bill?
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I've managed to avoid dealing with that level of Windows stuff for quite a while as I only have Windows on a laptop which I don't use often.
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: good point George
[11:58] George Equus: :)
[11:58] Bill.Blight I have been running nothing but .9x since it has existed
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been asked about the birds module for OpenSim. I haven't looked at it in a while.
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: Has Diva been around?
[11:59] Bill.Blight the birds module is neat, but I think it might have a memory leak
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I also plan to have a look at the Destinations code that is sitting on my hard drive. Someone else wrote the code. I wanted to review it and check it for any possibility of SQL injection before I will use it on a live grid.
[12:01] Matilda Charron: what s the birds module about?
[12:02] James atLLOUD: What is the birds module?
[12:02] James atLLOUD: :)
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: It is the top of the hour. Any other last items before we start losing a number of other people?
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: has diva been around? Curious if she will be looking at any hypergrid stuff soon
[12:02] Bill.Blight The birds module is a module by jakdaniels that adds flocks of birds as a region module, does not require in world scripts
[12:03] Matilda Charron: wow
[12:03] Bill.Blight but can be controlled in world by scripts
[12:03] James atLLOUD: Ah, just as it sounds.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: The birds module allows you to a number of prims movomg around in the air like birds. You set the number of them and it has a flocking behaviour so the "birds" move around each other and generally follow each other like birds do.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: It could be used for other things such as a school of fish (in theory).
[12:03] James atLLOUD: I see that a lot on the start region at Kitely I think.
[12:04] Matilda Charron: where do you get the module?
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: You could use it to have a flock of planes, or have a couple of dragons flying around a region with an old mediaeval castle in it.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: It is in git hub, iirc. Let me check...
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: The Birds module is here ->
[12:06] Matilda Charron: thank you
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a couple of lines module related lines missing at the start. It may cause a region to crash due to an out of bounds error on an array,.
[12:07] Matilda Charron: so best not to use it then
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: [12:02] Arielle Popstar: has diva been around? Curious if she will be looking at any hypergrid stuff soon
[12:13] Bill.Blight What hypergrid stuff?
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: hg is getting flakier lately
[12:13] Bill.Blight not noticed
[12:13] Bill.Blight but one of the reasons there are issues to some places is a disparity in versions
[12:13] Sheera.Khan Chat log of meeting is posted already ;-)
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, I haven't seen diva in a long time.
[12:14] Bill.Blight people are not upgrading and staying on old versions
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: hasnt been much of an issue that way
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: the compatibility was pretty good
[12:14] Bill.Blight I have no issues HG between .9x grids
[12:14] Bill.Blight only when going to some of the older grids
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: but recently it is getting unpredictable
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, ty. You got that done quickly.
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: finding, jumping, and loading
[12:15] Sheera.Khan :-)
[12:15] Bill.Blight the gap in versions of opensim and the versions of mono PLUS the versions of operating systems is getting wider
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: well could be which just emphasizes my point about it needing work
[12:16] Bill.Blight Well yes it needs work but not as much as people need to stop being stuck in the past
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: well that debate unfortunately has no resolution atm
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: if core would sort out some of the issues with .9 then the ones on .8.2 would be more likely to update
[12:17] Bill.Blight so instead of fixing the people just put the weight on the devs?
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: well they are in cotrol arent they
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: of the code
[12:18] Bill.Blight I'm being very cynical today
[12:18] Arielle Popstar: i see :)
[12:18] Bill.Blight yes but they are not in control of the people those people insist on being stuck in the past
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, If there are specific problems with 0.9 that people are having they need to make sure they report them, or keep bugging the devs about them, or else they may never get fixed.
[12:19] Bill.Blight if it is a problem between .9x and .8x it is not going to get fixed, because .8x has been declared dead code
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: .9 hasnt been declared
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: and as you point out, there is more then just the opensim versioning
[12:20] Bill.Blight yes but why would you fix .9x just to correct a problem with it taking to .8x which is dead
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: personally the probs i see are between .9X grids
[12:20] Bill.Blight you may be in the minority , but what kinds of "problems" specifically
[12:21] Arielle Popstar: finding, jumping, loading, groups, IM's, online presence
[12:21] Bill.Blight that is all server misconfiguration
[12:21] Bill.Blight groups are not meant to work over the HG never were
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: or code misconfiguration if previous masters worked fine on the same configs
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: sure they were
[12:22] Bill.Blight umm no they were not
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: There can also be the difference between some of the addon modules and the core ones between grids.
[12:22] Bill.Blight it was a fluke that they worked
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: uhm yes they were Bill. Diva worked on that in .8.2 and .9 is supposed tyo be compatible that way
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: I never looked at adding any HG support to the PHP based search and profile modules.
[12:23] Bill.Blight not what I was told by diva a while back
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: she did it in her Diva distro back then too
[12:23] Bill.Blight yes in diva , but first off not all grids use v2 groups
[12:23] Arielle Popstar: but also put it in core
[12:23] Bill.Blight so there is the other issue
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, if you can check if the problems are already filed in a mantis and if not, file them, that would be great.
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: \]V2 is default now i believe
[12:24] Bill.Blight so
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Core groups, search, and profile are the defaults.
[12:24] Bill.Blight just because it is the default does not make it best or what everyone users
[12:24] Bill.Blight V2 groups does not handle large amounts of groups or group notices
[12:24] Arielle Popstar: is diva back in irc recently?
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: This grid was using the PHP based search and profile modules until recently.
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Core (V2) groups doesn't support sending offline IMs to users via email.
[12:25] Bill.Blight nope
[12:25] Bill.Blight I use PHP groups , offline IM , and profiles
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: i know someone who switched from PHP groups to v2 and now wants me to switch the grid back to the PHP groups module for that very reason.
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: so if no diva, then no work on HG forthcoming
[12:26] Arielle Popstar: at least from core
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Not unless someone else steps up to do some HG specific work.

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