Chat log from the meeting on 2018-02-20

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[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks Hello, everyone
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks Anyone working on Open Sim things this past week or have you all been watching the Olympics? :)
[11:10] LaNani Sundara: i was showing Bill and Ubit a texture issue
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks LaNani, what texture issue?
[11:11] James.atLLOUD btw - this laptop has been blue-screening lately so I may just disappear.
[11:11] LaNani Sundara: in some cases not all faces will be retextured, like on this torus
[11:11] LaNani Sundara: in front of me
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks LaNani, Yes, I see that some faces aren't textured.
[11:13] LaNani Sundara: they just were for 5 seconds when i put this new texture on
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: odd
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks Hm... those are faces 3 and 4 that aren't getting tetxured.
[11:13] LaNani Sundara: and then went back
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: i would expect issues on meshes not torus
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks I was wondering for a moment if there was an off by one error in the texturing for a torus.
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks Nice textures, btw
[11:14] LaNani Sundara: it takes some cutting and twisting to get it to misbehave this way
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well it has one now :p
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks LaNani, what viewer are you using?
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: err not anymore lol
[11:14] LaNani Sundara: FS 5.07
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks Ok. I was about to say I didn't know of a viewer with the initials FD. I'm on FS 5.0.11
[11:15] LaNani Sundara: typing is not one of my skills
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks Do you have the same problem when using other viewers?
[11:16] LaNani Sundara: i will try Sing as well and let Ubit know
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks It is not that likely that the issue is viewer specific considering that most viewers are based on a common code base.
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar nods
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar persistence issue
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: damm i was making a copy of it on my test region
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:17] LaNani Sundara: i gave you a copy right Ubit?
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks I clicked the link in the dialog box that appeared after you passed me the item and it crashed my Firestorm.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: you did ?
[11:18] LaNani Sundara: o?
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks I've switched to Sing if you want to rez that item again.
[11:18] LaNani Sundara: ok
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks I see it. Change the texture.
[11:19] LaNani Sundara: ok
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks I see the change but those two faces still aren't textured.
[11:19] LaNani Sundara: and hop gone
[11:19] LaNani Sundara: i saw them textured for 5 sec
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks I see the texture change but those two faces never change for me. Not even briefly.
[11:20] Hyacinth.Jewell Yeah it's not getting persisted. You are seeing it in the viewer on your end.
[11:20] LaNani Sundara: let me give it to you again....
[11:21] LaNani Sundara: if you havent crashed...
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks I still have it in my inventory from the first time you sent it.
[11:21] LaNani Sundara: try wearing it, its attached to avi center
[11:21] LaNani Sundara: you can try texturing it yourself
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks It wasn't the giving that crashed the viewer. It was clicking a link in the dialog box that showed up in the viewer when the item was received.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: odd tex don't stick really
[11:22] Hyacinth.Jewell As far as I know, that was working a year ago when I was using it. I had it textured.
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks It never textures faces 3 and 4.
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar other stuff been having texture persistence problems
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar recently
[11:23] Hyacinth.Jewell I also noticed when playing with it recently.. The new FS will mark it as a bad object / material and derender it. Not consistently though
[11:23] Hyacinth.Jewell But it will throw the same error the bad mesh were
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar on both physics engines?
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: singu also fails to apply to all
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: damm
[11:24] Hyacinth.Jewell And while I am here.. whoever fixed the mesh issue with FS in the new physics engines.. thank you thank you thank you! Well done!
[11:24] Bill.Blight Ok in my sigularity I see the thing all textured but when I look at it from this view I don't see it all textured
[11:24] Bill.Blight the OSG bill is on singu
[11:24] LaNani Sundara: we tested on OSgrid's sandboxes, ubODE and BulletSim
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: textures have nothing to do with physics..
[11:25] LaNani Sundara: i know but .. just to make sure
[11:25] Hyacinth.Jewell I know, it is seprate. But I wanted to express my gratitude.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: hmm singu does not apply to all, but setting the face does work
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well i'll try to debug this later
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar but may fail on a viewer restart
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, any chance it could be as simple as a loop not going over all the faces for the object?
[11:26] LaNani Sundara: ty Bill :) it does look ok on that screenshot
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: sounds like a number of faces counting issue
[11:26] Hyacinth.Jewell I am think perhaps, that the weird prims, like the torus or whatever just do not have the strange, inside faces defined.. so it is not persisting them?
[11:27] LaNani Sundara: *nods i was thinking the same Andrew
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks If it is as simple as it not dealing with the correct number of faces it might be a simple thing to get fixed.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, what viewer are you using?
[11:28] Hyacinth.Jewell Arielle. Which faces were you seeing the textures not persisting?
[11:28] Bill.Blight well remember last week , the thing we discovered that FS actually let you try to apply invalid prim params to prims, like when Tampa was trying to apply revolutions to a square prim, FS let's you attempt it, other viewers disable the option on prims it should not be on .. maybe this is along the same lines
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar i forget atm Hy
[11:28] Hyacinth.Jewell I have been seeing it at odd times, even on things as simple as a cube.
[11:29] Hyacinth.Jewell I remember it happening ocassionally in the past, but it seems more frequent now. It happened when Lanani and I were testing in the OSG sandbox.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: but singu did seem to work dif from fs
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: as i said i could change the individual faces with it.. not fs
[11:31] LaNani Sundara: i can texture individual faces with FS
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: i did but reverts
[11:32] Hyacinth.Jewell I do too, all the time. The issues I have seen have just been flaky and not reproducable. Except on that simulator version prim we just saw.
[11:32] Bill.Blight when I tested it with Singu, I saw the change in sigu, but in the FS window it reverted from that point of view
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: the faces that fail here will revert yes
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: they do stay on singu
[11:32] Hyacinth.Jewell aha!
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: did relog with clean cache and they where set
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: well and now are set for FS also lol
[11:33] Hyacinth.Jewell I see all the faces set as well. Latest FS here.
[11:33] Bill.Blight Just what I thought, it is the same bug in FS as the last Texture change that everyone was freaking about, FS just bounces back in the viewport but the server actually saves the texture change
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: but this does sound like a number of faces issue
[11:33] Hyacinth.Jewell Before you brought it back, the faces in question were gray
[11:33] Hyacinth.Jewell oh wait
[11:33] Hyacinth.Jewell now one is gray.
[11:34] Hyacinth.Jewell it changed just now
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks I am able to texture faces 3 and 4 one at a time. That indicates it isn't a viewer specific issue.
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: 4 faces ?
[11:34] Bill.Blight How so Andrew?
[11:35] Bill.Blight I was able to texture the whole thing and it stick in Singu but not in FS
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: set all does not set 3 and 4
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, if it was a viewer issue I would expect that I wouldn't be able to see the other faces textured at all.
[11:35] LaNani Sundara: it sound like a loop or counting issue.. doesn't it?
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks It does.
[11:36] LaNani Sundara: maybe FS sends 1 request for all.. and Sing sends a request per face?
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks I would have a quick look now but I'd probably get lost in the code trying to find where the texture information is being readied for sending to the viewer.
[11:36] LaNani Sundara: anyway :) that was the issue i wanted to bring to the meeting
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks Thank you for that, LaNani.
[11:37] LaNani Sundara: thanks guys for listening
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks One more item for Ubits to do list. :)
[11:37] Bill.Blight I'd test with several different viewers before pronouncing a server issue, although it may be able to be mitigated server side ..
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, I have 6 viewers installed so I can test it with them.
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar maybe its a flaky permission issue
[11:38] Bill.Blight ohhh one less than me Andrew, catch up man
[11:38] Bill.Blight :P
[11:38] LaNani Sundara: is it possible FS does a different kind of request than Sing?
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, I wasn't counting the SL specific viewer.
[11:38] Bill.Blight Neither was I
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, oh. :P
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks Bill, some of the viewers aren't available for Linux.
[11:39] James.atLLOUD lol such competition :)
[11:39] Bill.Blight I'm a test monkey, I like to have my ducks in a row before I scream at the sky ... HAHAHA
[11:39] Hyacinth.Jewell May I ask. What did you guys do in master that fixed the FS mesh issue? The most recent version I picked up seems to fix the materials error that was casing mesh to disappear. Perhaps it is related?
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well seems some part of code thinks this torus only has 2 faces
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, sounds like you are on to something there.
[11:40] Hyacinth.Jewell Because that twisted prim we just had out.. It was causing the same issue, and de-rendering when I played with it.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: later will try to see if it is our issue or viewer issue
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks Sounds good, Ubit.
[11:41] Bill.Blight When you test Singu, you will see that some prims it does not allow you to set certain parameters on it, that FS does, because you are not supposed to be able to
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well assuming my brain decides do work :p
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, did you notice Hyacinths question about a fix in master re: mesh?
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: been a bit ill since sunday
[11:41] LaNani Sundara: thank you guys
[11:41] LaNani Sundara: get well Ubit
[11:41] Gary Monsterous: yes, get well please Ubit
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks Sorry to hear that Ubit. Hope you feel more like your old self soon.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: i don't think we did any thing recently to meshes
[11:42] Hyacinth.Jewell hope you feel better Ubit
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: possible you did changed that FS debug option?
[11:42] Bill.Blight I was just looking back through the commits, I see nothing that is mesh specific
[11:42] Andrew.Hellershanks Probably not. Most of your changes have been done in httptests and not master.
[11:42] Hyacinth.Jewell oh.. so maybe that came in with the linden code? I was wondering
[11:42] Bill.Blight recently anyway
[11:42] Hyacinth.Jewell But whatever it was, all my trees and buildings came back the second I updated to newer code.
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: FS ( from ll) does have a option to turn off the new mesh checks
[11:43] LaNani Sundara: woot
[11:43] Andrew.Hellershanks Hyacinth, Have you updated your viewer recently?
[11:43] Bill.Blight well, you got a newer physics engine, so newer mesh physics, this could be it
[11:43] Hyacinth.Jewell Yes I know, but this fixes it without a need for the workaround. It is awesome.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: what new physics engine?
[11:43] Hyacinth.Jewell Both ubODE and Bullet
[11:43] LaNani Sundara: (*coughs* you sure it wasnt my code that fixed it ;p :D
[11:44] Bill.Blight If updated from release to dev, didn't bullet get some updates since then
[11:44] Hyacinth.Jewell I merged in the physics code with my stuff and it fixed it instantly
[11:44] LaNani Sundara: yes BulletSim did get some updates i saw
[11:44] Hyacinth.Jewell so maybe it's in the openmetaverse stuff.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: you are messing things .. physics have no relation to visible meshing
[11:44] Hyacinth.Jewell if you're not aware of doing anything deliberately.. anyway.. it's fixed. happy happy :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: and they do not change the mesh asset viewers see
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:45] Bill.Blight I've been using ubODE since it has been out, I have not had this mesh issue with FS
[11:45] Hyacinth.Jewell Whatever it is, it fixes the material problem that FS was complaining about and de-rendering
[11:45] LaNani Sundara: great that its fixed for you :)
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: there where some changes on number of meshes faces some time ago ( not torus that is older code )
[11:46] Hyacinth.Jewell Well all the 0.9.0 grids still seem screwed. Like with the Ruth avatar.. the hands and feet disappear as soon as you TP in, because of that issue.
[11:46] Bill.Blight Even with my blown up asset server when I managed to restore, the only mesh I had any issues with was the really freaking old stuff
[11:46] LaNani Sundara: Hyacinth managed to reproduce the texture issue on a prim cube as well
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: viewers do need some encoding about meshes number of faces before actually loading them
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: and we did not had that
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: ( and i made a few mistakes along the way :p )
[11:47] Bill.Blight NOOOO UBIT!! Say it isn't so ... HAHAHA
[11:47] Hyacinth.Jewell Well if it helps anyone. A lot of people are mad about it, and it seems to be resolved on OSG, and on my grid.
[11:48] LaNani Sundara: if you would be so kind and revisit that old code Ubit and look for possible issues :) thank you
[11:48] Hyacinth.Jewell so it might point people in the right direction anyway, in resolving it.
[11:48] Bill.Blight Well flakey mesh has been talked about for almost 2 years now
[11:48] Bill.Blight was plenty of time to fix it
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: but don't mix issues
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: one class of issues are physics part only
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: others are visible part.. not the same thing
[11:49] LaNani Sundara: well there is only one Ubit ;) seems he has to do most of the work :)
[11:49] Hyacinth.Jewell yup. With the Ruth stuff, I was able to clean it up in Blender and get it to work.. But half of my trees and such had disappeaerd, and it looked like I'd have to write those off as gone.
[11:49] Hyacinth.Jewell When I updated and recompiled.. all that stuff came back.
[11:49] Hyacinth.Jewell So very very happy.
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: guess missing meshs is the new FS error detection code
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: has ruth been tested with a full LOD upload instead of the normal 0 setting on low and lower ?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of the mesh issues were code but others were based on how the mesh had been uploaded.
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: we have no word on that
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: the meshs are as viewers did upload them
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: 0.9 will try to refuse upload of some trivial broken assets viewers don't detect
[11:51] LaNani Sundara: i had to learn about LOD to be able to upload mesh that didnt just fall apart at a distance
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ( code that some 'clever' ppl said on g++ to remove.. bahh )
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: moi?
[11:51] Hyacinth.Jewell If I upload the same mesh, with no modifications with blender.. on a sim running the latest Bullet or ubODE. It works fine, and the issue is corrected, even if I rez it on a region using older code. So that is really nice.
[11:52] Hyacinth.Jewell SO something is fixing it on the fly.
[11:52] Bill.Blight Exactly that is what I meant by this issue has been around for a while, the reasons are different , but fixing it for one, seems to fix it for both ..
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: One thing that took a while to get documented was the proper way to upload mesh so you didn't mess up objects from the get go.
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: any changes to the meshmerizer?
[11:52] LaNani Sundara: like the chair Andrew is sitting on... LOD issue at a distance
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: meshmerizers are PHYSICS
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: looks ok to me
[11:53] Gary Monsterous: it is not for me at a distance
[11:53] LaNani Sundara: so me they turn into boxes at a distance
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: oh ok now i see
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, Yes, these chairs degrade very quickly.
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: FS now makes builders life easier
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: allowing the display of LODs
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: without having to fly around
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and also physics shapes
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. I have one question for everyone. Has any of you done any testing on the new scripting engine?
[11:54] Bill.Blight Regardless of the underlying reasons, which don't matter to the end user anyway, had people started fixing their mesh for .9x a year ago, this would not be an issue now, because it seems to inherently fix this issue ..
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: bf we had to see the all region physics shapes
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: now can be per prim.. a lot lighter
[11:54] Hyacinth.Jewell I agree.
[11:55] LaNani Sundara: there is a lot of old content i bet that will simply never get "fixed"
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: the ruth avatar shouldnt be affected by the physics\
[11:55] Hyacinth.Jewell That's just kind of cold comfort though when people's whole region disappears, and they don't really have the skills or means to fix it.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yeap a bit more care on meshes uploads fixes a lot of issues
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: so no specific 'fixes'
[11:55] Bill.Blight People spent too much time screaming at the sky that .9x broke their mesh, instead of actually doing something about it ..
[11:55] Hyacinth.Jewell Oh yes, Ruth is definitely affected
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: well it is why more then half of opensim is still on .8.2 Bill
[11:56] Bill.Blight lazyness
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: not always. Just not always able to fix
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: because of perms etc
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: or knowledge
[11:57] Bill.Blight then replace it with something new, why are you so attached to pixels that are 4 years old
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: and ppl forgot to tell that the issues where only relevant if using ubOde, not bullet
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: build me something then
[11:57] LaNani Sundara: i think content creators and owners of mesh can not be expected to replace all they have, i can understand a certain resistance to having to redo or rebuy all your stuff
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: but well ppl said things just because they did not want any upgrades. from core
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: its not a problem really. There is a workaround to make Ubode accept it
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: a totally diferent issue...
[11:58] Bill.Blight Does your 1999 cell phone still work? Nope, had to upgrade it
[11:58] Bill.Blight same principle
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: see.. many do not want a working core version...
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: mesh. The feature that keeps on giving (problems) ;)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: but well details from the darker side of life :p
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: my 4 year old cell still is compatible
[11:58] Hyacinth.Jewell I think it is fair to say that is not diplomatic. ;)
[11:58] LaNani Sundara: hey :) i know just am empathetic :)
[11:59] Bill.Blight I really loved my StarTac flip phone, but had to update
[12:00] Bill.Blight Not a good analogy because I hate them, but a good example is Apple, Usb to Lightning connector
[12:00] James atLLOUD: Had a palm OS flip phone - made the Star Trek communicator noise when opened.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: and music changed to "dark Matters" lol
[12:00] Bill.Blight I had a StarTac, Loved that phone
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: James, I had a friend of mine who had a ST tricorder simulation program on their (almost) original Palm based PDA. It made all the standard sounds one would expect of a tricorder.
[12:01] James atLLOUD: (^_^) nirvana
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Sometimes progress isn't.
[12:02] LaNani Sundara: the average user will not care if they are on .8 or .9 or even understand the difference, right? of course its not possible to stay backwards compatible for ever and you can not make any progress that way :) but people are, if not lazy then maybe not seeing the need, yet
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Any last thoughts or issues before we start losing people?
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: its the grid owners admins who are refusing to upgrade though Nani
[12:03] Hyacinth.Jewell Just sincere thanks, on the mesh issue. Even if you didn't do it. it works now. Very happy. :)
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: you may had just changed the FS option Hyacinth.Jewell
[12:03] LaNani Sundara: and thank you guys for taking the texture issue seriously :)
[12:04] Hyacinth.Jewell No. It is def open sim
[12:04] Bill.Blight And that is the problem Arielle .. the Grid Owners who refuse to update, yet everyone screams at the devs for moving forward when others will not ..
[12:04] Hyacinth.Jewell I change the FS option back and forth and can see the results
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: well maybe core could try working with the admins to fix up other issues
[12:04] Hyacinth.Jewell before everything would wink in and out. With the newer opensim code, everything stays put.
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well as i said related to that i just did improve the mesh number of faces viewers did want bf actually getting the mesh
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: when all of opensim is back on the same page, things should move along faster
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: basicly they wnat the prim that contains the mesh to have the same number of faces
[12:05] Bill.Blight Maybe the admins should try not being stuck in the past
[12:06] Bill.Blight Opensim will never be on the cutting edge, unless people actually want to be there, rather than just complaining that it isn't
[12:06] LaNani Sundara: ... could that be similar to the prim faces issue Ubit?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: so they can compute LOD before even trying to fetch it
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: maybe core needs to be more sensitive to the lack of backward compatibility
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: can be a prob with this torus
[12:06] Bill.Blight no they don't , IMHO
[12:06] LaNani Sundara: Hyacinth had it on a cube as well
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: but torus code is older. i did not changed it
[12:06] Hyacinth.Jewell Not consistently.
[12:07] LaNani Sundara: *nods
[12:07] Bill.Blight Sometimes you have to burn bridges to keep the enemy from following you, and in this case the enemy is flaws in the code
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: but need to put debugger on top of it and see what is going on
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: there were others ways of doing it
[12:07] Bill.Blight Then write your own? Everyone seems to KNOW HOW CORE SHOULD DO IT ...
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: are you core?
[12:08] Bill.Blight Nope
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Developers can never please everyone.
[12:08] Bill.Blight but I write my own
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: ok then why dont you forge ahead and leave the rest of us behind
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: you mean you crash yr regions your own way :p
[12:08] Bill.Blight already did
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: then why worry about the compatibilities between Master and .8.2?
[12:08] James atLLOUD: hmm - classic conversation
[12:09] Bill.Blight Because unlike some I want to see opensim move forward not stay stuck in the past because of people who refuse to move
[12:10] Bill.Blight doesn't matter, those that insist on being stuck in the past always will be ..
[12:10] James atLLOUD: If Firestorm becomes SL only, I'll be stuck in the past too.
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: opensim isnt up to using all of the features we already have in FS so no need to worry\
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: so far it is being working.. several issues, but same are also issues at SL
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: that fs devs don't even notice

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