Chat log from the meeting on 2017-12-12

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[11:01] Ubit Umarov: 8 files changed on a minor thing.. still some 4 to go.. uff
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: err 10.. 2 i did commit on previus commit lol
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Are you talking about your mutelist related changes?
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:02] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. It appears a lot more complicated than what I needed to do.
[11:03] Misterblue Waves: some of the other platforms are pretty impressive.... OS is a little behind the times
[11:03] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: do the other platforms have inworld building?
[11:04] Misterblue Waves: mostly "will have someday"
[11:04] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: a bird in hand is worth more then 2 in bushes :)
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: Adam did mention they had improve it a bit
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: unity does have some suport for runtime loading of assets
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: but don't think they do want it
[11:05] Misterblue Waves: it is something they plan to have
[11:06] Misterblue Waves: it is hard :)
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: any user created content is something they do not want
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I can't see some of the other platforms that are purely mesh based having much in the way of inworld building other than basic use of objects created outside the viewer and imported.
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: at least until automatic optimization tools don't get a lot better
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I can't see them making a viewer that includes a mesh editor.
[11:07] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: to me OS and sl niche is that ability to build inworld
[11:07] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: that should be the focus
[11:07] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: make better better inworld building tools
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: In SL there is a product called Cerilium(sp?) where you stick objects together and a server optimizes the intersections for you and makes you a mesh.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: ( building tools are viewer things, ask tgilon.. so he may learn why viewers do hold us back )
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Hm... we are a slightly smaller group this week. I was waiting for a few other regulars to appear.
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: There is an OSCC tour event going on right now.
[11:09] LaNani Sundara: hello :) Ubit invited me
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Is there? hmm...
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Oh. The Virtual Harmony Tour.
[11:09] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: video at 7
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I was interested in taking that tour. Too bad they didn't pick a better time for it.
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: whats on the agenda today?
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: How many of you were at the OSCC? I know I saw several people I recognized from here.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, what's an agenda?  ;)
[11:11] Misterblue Waves: doesn't look like much is going to happen here... you should catch the tour, Andrew
[11:11] LaNani Sundara: i was there a bit on both days
[11:12] George Equus: One huge limitation is the land resolution in opensim- 1 pixel = 1 meter Not much anyone can do about that unfortunately. The other biggie used to be the one sided avatars, Bento fixed that I guess
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Misterblue, I could be in both places at once.
[11:12] George Equus: I went to majority of the talks on oscc
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: multi task?
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I caught most of the ones I wanted to see. A couple I couldn't attend due to RL events.
[11:13] George Equus: missed some though, hope they publish video soon
[11:14] George Equus: Checked on AvaCon pages, seem very outdated...
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: Resolution of land is a big problem. A mesh this big is a lot of vertexes, and a texture map to cover it with reasonable detail is huge.
[11:14] George Equus: Yes...
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I hear it will take a week to get the videos from OSCC ready to publish.
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: They may start appearing one at a time...
[11:15] Misterblue Waves: resolution as in textures or in height variability?
[11:15] George Equus: tried making some on computer and import but is still crude
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: i dont see how 1m = 1 pixel ??
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: George, what do you mean by 1 pixel?
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: in what textures?
[11:15] LaNani Sundara: i did not get that remark either, 1 meter = 1 pixel?
[11:16] George Equus: Some do know how to get really nice detailed land though, it can be done but I have no clue how they do it  :(
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: Height is floating point, but the terrain grid has only one point per meter.
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Are you referring to how the land is encoded? 1 bit rather than 1 pixel?
[11:16] LaNani Sundara: is this about terrain texturing?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: one point is not 1 pixel...
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: How to cover terrain with textures with high enough resolution is hard, a shader script is the best solution I can imagine so far.
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: there is interpolation
[11:17] George Equus: 256x256 standard region same texture resolution must be used so 1 m = 1 pixel
[11:17] Misterblue Waves: the textures for land are generated by the viewer
[11:17] LaNani Sundara: if you use a 256x256 texture...
[11:17] George Equus: you have to
[11:18] LaNani Sundara: hmm ok
[11:18] Misterblue Waves: using the heights, the four textures and blended
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: think texture is per patch.. but dont remember
[11:18] George Equus: inworld teraforming is pretty much out of the question anyway, if you want smooth even results
[11:18] LaNani Sundara: so a 1024x1024 var region can use a 1024x1024 texture?
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Shaders would be nice. The textures generated by the viewer are such that different people see slighly different look of the land.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: ( per patch then extended and baked/blended
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: shaders have a few issues..
[11:19] Misterblue Waves: the four textures are mapped to heights and weighted by the elevation for the blending
[11:19] George Equus: a VAR would still use 256 I believe only multiple
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: first.. GPU unprotected code created by users ??? yeack
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: someone has to write the shaders for one.
[11:19] Sheera Khan dreams of the blender cycles engine integrated into OpenSim
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, shaders can overheat your GPU if you get carried away with them....
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: second some gpus stop rendering to make them
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, isn't that an interesting idea. :)
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: I can write the shaders for you Andrew!
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ( as you see changing some viewer settings )
[11:20] LaNani Sundara: is the texture size limit a viewer issue or a server issue?
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: viewers do terrain baking
[11:20] LaNani Sundara: *nods
[11:21] LaNani Sundara: so can we blame SL? ;)
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: are voxels of any relevance to the discussion?
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: as i said at oscc viewers do define most we have, very contrary to what xmir/tgilon said on marias.. actually a comment i don't understand that well comming from a viewer dev
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: if they could be implemented?
[11:22] George Equus: I have my house at an angle to region and tried for ages to make a hole for basement fitting the house foundation, can't be done if want straight even edges
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: dahlia and siana discussion on g+ was alot more reasonable and correct
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: Actually, I think LL did a good job with the terrain baking design: It uses very little bandwidth to cover a lot f terrain.
[11:23] LaNani Sundara: use a parcel the size of the foundation, use a 2nd avi with only rights on the parcel
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: LL viewers are not that bad
[11:23] George Equus: shhh not so loud...
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: it is true that tries do use other engines as viewers did not performed that well
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: bc they do not suport dynamic cooking as sl viewer does
[11:24] George Equus: I'd personally don't care what software I use, as long as it do what's needed
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:25] Misterblue Waves: the content (prims) are a nice format for editting but not a nice format for displaying.... many optimizations are needed
[11:25] Misterblue Waves: the optimizations are what make the LL viewer work so well
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: prims are a nice bandwith thing
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: and also a nice building tool for normal users
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: ( like minecraft )
[11:26] George Equus: in particular a bunch of 20 000 of them  :)
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: meshs are not for normal mortals :p
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: doesnt minecraft use voxels?
[11:26] Misterblue Waves: Minecraft is large blocks... which can be considered voxels
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: compare for example the bandwith need to send a torus as a mesh versus its prim
[11:27] Misterblue Waves: but most real voxel systems have much smaller blocks so they don't look blocky
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I can handle creation of mesh objects but I haven't done much with trying to texture them.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: even a simple box
[11:27] LaNani Sundara: its an art on its own
[11:27] LaNani Sundara: :D
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: and primmeshing is only a issue on webgl and its js i think
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The simple prims aren't as simple as you would expect in part because of the ways in which you can torture them.
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: i can tell that was not a issue on unreal :p
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: there was a dev who made a fork of opensim back in 2010 that allowed the use of voxels
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ariellle voxel is a fancy name only
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: they are all over
[11:29] Misterblue Waves: a prim has faces and each face has a material attributes... so each prim turns into 8+ independent meshes
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Arielle, what difference did it make to performance or appearance of a region?
[11:29] Misterblue Waves: webgl doesn't handle that well... it will get better with webgl2 and using some of the wasm renderers... but that's in our future
[11:29] LaNani Sundara: "A voxel represents a value on a regular grid in three-dimensional space. As with pixels in a bitmap, voxels themselves do not typically have their position explicitly encoded along with their values. Instead, rendering systems infer the position of a voxel based upon its position relative to other voxels."
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: more terrain options
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: allowed caves, underground tunnels etc
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: strict voxels or not.. minor implementation details..
[11:30] Misterblue Waves: 3d terrain would be great
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: pros and cons
[11:30] George Equus: dream is to be able to dig a tunnel...
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I know Nebadon was using an array of sculpties to have more detailed terrain that could include caves.
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: stop dreaming heighmaps are good base for terrain :p
[11:31] LaNani Sundara: can always make mesh terrain :D
[11:31] Misterblue Waves: there have been many voxel world implementations... some used in games so explosions could dig out craters
[11:31] George Equus: got many mesh objects to form tunnel/rock systems
[11:32] George Equus: is OK I guess
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: heigh map can be and should be complemented with meshs
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: the main issue on this it the terrain textures bake
[11:32] LaNani Sundara: on my old game, kaneva, we only could make hills and caves with mesh, we had no terraforming
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: I have a terrain tool that blasts craters in OpenSim terrain! No tunnels of course....
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: nice as we said.. but hard to blend some meshs on it
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: mesh is more for professional creators
[11:33] LaNani Sundara: well... just use water terrain and drop a whole mesh landscape on it :D
[11:34] George Equus: sure, but need to create that mesh
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: mixed solution is the best
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: i am looking from a regular user perspective
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There are tools available that are designed just for creation of terrain
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: I've tried to build mesh terrain, it is difficult to optimize, to get detailed texture on it....
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There is even a plugin for Blender.
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: and meshs stress phycis and viewers a lot more
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: ( yes i know you don't use physics :p )
[11:35] George Equus: Seen terrific examples of near RL naturalism in ground/rocks but probably pro job
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: some engines do allow holes on the hightmap
[11:35] George Equus: someone working at Pixar can do it  :)
[11:36] George Equus: as Ubit say, not for mere mortals
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: well i see unity ( not space) examples using heighmaps + meshs very reallistic
[11:36] Kayaker Magic: Pixar does not have to render at 30 fps.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ( and oceans with waves buaahhhhhh > shaders )
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Terrain Sculptor is one program I looked at a while back.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: movies are other story
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: they don't use even gpus
[11:37] George Equus: no but the employee have the knowledge to make a perfect customization for opensim
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: they do raytracing and other techs
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: a full day to render a frame :p
[11:38] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's partly due to all the objects and the shaders they have to run to texture and light a scene.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: lord of the rings, battle of the elm took 1 week to render on 1000 linux boxes
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: I am learning how to make mesh with armatures to do waves. Some places allow mesh to have armatures and animations....
[11:38] George Equus: I dream of the day you show a picture to the computer and it builds a model for you, will happen, eventually
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: virtual 3d printing
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: there are some 2d to 3d tools
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: they guess 3d from shades etc
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: George, that is already available. It is called photogrammetry. You just provide multiple views of the same object to a computer program and it will build you a mesh object.
[11:40] George Equus: Yes, something on all our office desk  :))
[11:40] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It can be if you want it.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: ( i meant with only one pic.. multiple pics is "trivial"
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: motion capture all over games now
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I can't ever see going from a single 2D image to 3D. You just don't have enough information in a single picture.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: and also used on LoR a lot
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: it uses shades .. of course does fail
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: but you look to a paint and you do see 3d
[11:41] George Equus: 3d rendering isn't new, at least 25 years old saw demo once, took a week to produce
[11:41] George Equus: was amazing
[11:41] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: You can't see the backside. :)
[11:42] George Equus: made a wireframe only
[11:42] George Equus: but at the time...
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: backside of chinese toys is empty also :p
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: isometric view
[11:43] LaNani Sundara: hmm there is a place on OSgrid where someone offers 3d topographical terrain mesh based on aerial photos
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well from rl lots of 3d scaning tecks now
[11:43] LaNani Sundara: like of mountain ranges
[11:43] George Equus: AI will probably help out making what we want done, smart programs writing ather smart applications...
[11:43] George Equus: Lidar comes to mind
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: and multi beam sonar etc
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: LaNani, you can also make terrain using real geographic data.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: ( under water )
[11:44] LaNani Sundara: cool :)
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: There are ways to convert USGS public data into terrain maps that work here.
[11:44] George Equus: seen japan on SL like that
[11:44] LaNani Sundara: let me see... i do have a LM somewhere
[11:44] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yes, I was thinking of what Kayaker said. I think I have some of the tools to do that.
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: yes there are tools for that
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I've seen Hawaii turned in to mesh.
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: Then there are ways to convert terrain maps into mesh in Blender, where you can carve caves into them!
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: yrs ago we did had a part of portugal done like that at SL
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: this is a link to that voxelsim on github in case anyone wants to look further https://github.com/N3X15/VoxelSim
[11:46] George Equus: I tried Terragen a couple of times
[11:46] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: oh, right. That's another of the terrain generator program I've looked at.
[11:48] George Equus: http://planetside.co.uk/terragen-overview/
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and sl terrain transmission is also nicely optimized
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: using a compression that is a kind of simplified jpeg
[11:48] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hm... I can't find the name of the blender addon that generates terrain. I may not have it loaded in my current Blender install.
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: The optimization of terrain is done with lossy compression that makes sharp cliffs jaggy!
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: ( terrain is something we do have in detail region side unlike other "assets" )
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: we need 2 bc of that compressor at least
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: as i said a simplified DCT based compressor
[11:50] George Equus hmm 5Y since I last used terragen it seem..... maybe time to try again
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: basicly only does not have huffman or arith encoder stage.. just a simpler thing
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: and 16 size.. when all typical optimized algos are 8x8 :p
[11:51] LaNani Sundara: those tools like Terragen look interesting but would it be able to get any of the generated terrain into an opensim region? as mesh or whatever?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: ( but i did found a 16x16 now in use )
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: as raw terrain lanani
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: ppl doing it a lot
[11:52] LaNani Sundara: cool :)
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: using geografic databases
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: google about it
[11:52] LaNani Sundara: interesting
[11:52] LaNani Sundara: i will
[11:53] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The hour is winding down. Does anyone else have an OpenSim topic they wish to discuss other than terrain?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: as i said years ago we did had part of a portuguese region done like that at SL
[11:53] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I do have a quick question
[11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I went to the conference over the weekend and made some friends
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: nice.. i made enemies
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: whilst on the conference grid when I went home and logged out and logged back in again none of those friends showed on my list anymore
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: kidding :p ( well... )
[11:54] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: My question is, is that my grid or the conference grid?
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: HG friends.. temperamental things :(
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: specially with diferent regions versions etc
[11:55] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: should have received a confirmation dialogue box
[11:55] LaNani Sundara: and the conference grid was running on 0.8?
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: yes 0.8.2
[11:55] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Nothing when I got back (that is what I was waiting for)
[11:55] George Equus: Making friends out on HG can be finicky
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: it does normally work but had someone else mention they didnt get it while running late version of .9 osgrid
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Leighton, did you HG TP in to the grid and if so, did you come in from the same grid both times?
[11:56] George Equus: sometimes do work, sometimes not
[11:56] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is the weird thing george I made a friend on osgrid and the normal thing happened and they are still in my list
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: i do have a few from kitley etc and working
[11:56] George Equus: It is rather unreliable still, in my experience
[11:57] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Andrew yes same grid all weekend
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I seldom do anything involving HG so I don't know the typical behaviour.
[11:57] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: My instinct is the conference grid but wanted to ask just in case it was my grid being wobbly
[11:57] George Equus: Andrew, you need to get out more  :)
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I have a presence in 11 grids. I think that's enough. :)
[11:58] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: conference grid been well tested and debugged
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Even those I don't visit that often.
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: one also on arriba regions :)
[11:58] Ubit Umarov flüstert: ( well arriba coder actually :) )
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: but yeap i do remember making a friend at oscc and also do not have it
[11:58] George Equus: Ahh, ok  :) I made it simpler, HG ing over
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon could provide more information on using USGS data to make mesh terrain
[11:59] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I was surprised to see the grid running 0.8.2 dont think it was playing well with my 0.9 release
[11:59] George Equus: got for or five other accounts but seldom log on
[11:59] George Equus: Considered to risky changing to 9 this close to conference, will be latest next year I think
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Leighton, IIRC, it was too close to the conference this year to update it. I think the same thing happened last year.
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: well as i said do have friends from kitely etc also 0.8x
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: George, only if someone gets around to it.
[12:00] George Equus: Work with known stable version
[12:00] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: if you do a search for USGS data on opensim virtual G+ group, there was a bit of a tutorial on it a while back
[12:00] George Equus: Ist that Arielle, but been a lot of talk this year...
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: well mb just my impression but oscc wasnt that much about opensim
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah. The terraingen program can import data from the USGS.
[12:01] George Equus: AvaCon itself seem old too
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: at least on tech side
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: I have an NC somewhere on how to make terrain from USGS data, if I can find it, who wants a copy?
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a number of .dem files on my system.
[12:01] George Equus: 3 year old stuff
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: how go move into... and how much better it is was more a topic then opensim
[12:01] George Equus: Please Kayaker, can't hurt to at least inform onself..
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Woah. The dem files I have are from 2009. I guess it has been a while since I last looked at using USGS data for terrain.
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: last 3 years been a lot about catching back up to where we were on .8.3 to a degree
[12:03] LaNani Sundara: :D
[12:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: thanks for answering my question I feel a little more confident that its not my grid. :)
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and since many are telling opensim will not last 1 year more.. well.. i don't need to think if i will go oscc18
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002 ducks to avoid things being thrown at her
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, you can send me a copy of the tutorial if you find it.
[12:04] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: Well Ubit, whats the plan for the next release?
[12:04] George Equus: opensim will last 10 more years...
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Only 1 year left? Do we need to start a going out of business sale?  ;)
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: next should be the fixes already done
[12:04] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think Avacon needs some new blood as the old guard seem tired and moving on to other things
[12:05] LaNani Sundara: thats ok in 10 years lag should no longer be an issue
[12:05] LaNani Sundara: ;D
[12:05] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: heh
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: and bullet raycasts.. possible mutes ( if i finish them )
[12:05] George Equus: if we are here still...
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: basicly current master
[12:05] George Equus: might have dried off or drowned
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: My mute module can be used until you get yours working, Ubit.
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: yes andrew
[12:05] LaNani Sundara: you know i have been performing surgery on the current master ;)
[12:06] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: Sheera, has metro moved any further on updating to .9?
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: and now busy trying to save the pacient Lanani :p
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, simulation of surgery or you have been making changes to the code?
[12:06] LaNani Sundara: :P
[12:06] George Equus: I muted on Francogrid, it still is after several days  :)
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Ubit
[12:06] LaNani Sundara: my 20 regiosn run just fine on my code
[12:06] LaNani Sundara: changes Andrew
[12:06] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Zak is planning for a release in the quieter days around Christmas
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: ahh neat
[12:07] George Equus: was pain in the behind  :) having to block every time you went there
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: viwer cached mutes work already if.. if.. wel what i said on mantis :p
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Any upgrade of the OSCC grid may need to a wait a little while for the grid activity to drop now that the conference is over.
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: what did you say onm mantis?
[12:07] George Equus: Seem so Ubit  :)
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: go see i don't remember :p
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: couldnt been too important then :p
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Do you remember the mantis number?
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: modules are just region side storage to they survive cache clear or viewer change
[12:08] LaNani Sundara: i took out the throttle code from the GetMeshModule and the GetTextureModule... that one thing i did
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: err NO HG
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: and it works nice
[12:08] LaNani Sundara: changed locking mechanism of the AvatarFactoryModule
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: you can mute something on a HG visit but wil only be viewer cache
[12:09] LaNani Sundara: removed the ugly timer in there
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ( and lost on next login )
[12:09] George Equus: Never worked before Ubit, do now
[12:09] George Equus: not lost on next login
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: wel neither my module or andrews do HG
[12:09] LaNani Sundara: removed a pointless creator data check on an inventory lookup that only asked for the itemid
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: well not well at least
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: ( guess doinf that is 10 more files Yeackkk )
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, taking out throttle code should be done with care. It was there for a reason but you would need to talk with one of the main coders of OS to know why and what impacti removign it may have.
[12:10] LaNani Sundara: *shuts uo before Ubit grrs
[12:10] George Equus: Will confirm by Unblocking... maybe that pesky Friends request have actually been removed...
[12:10] LaNani Sundara: the throttles as implemented were no real throittles
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: andrew she is fixing her patient on that already :p
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: grrr
[12:11] LaNani Sundara: grr
[12:11] Ubit Umarov pushs lanani nose..
[12:11] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002 mutes ubit
[12:11] LaNani Sundara: yout throttle sjust made bigger files wait
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: they are real throttles
[12:11] LaNani Sundara: but did no chunking or anything
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: jsut large grain ones
[12:11] LaNani Sundara: you just send the whole big files in one go anayway
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, if you feel your changes will be useful to other users of OS, create reports in mantis for each issue and provide the code patches so they can be looked at.
[12:11] LaNani Sundara: just make them sit there
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but make you wait for next.. so on average normal bandwith
[12:12] LaNani Sundara: :) sorry Andrew thats the issue, i already have a job
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile UDP can flow
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: and other ppl meshs
[12:12] LaNani Sundara: Ubit an average with long pauses and then big data bursts i sno throttle
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: or assets
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: grrr
[12:12] LaNani Sundara: is no*
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: it is throttle
[12:13] LaNani Sundara: no its a stutter
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: no
[12:13] LaNani Sundara: a throttle would slow down the speed
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: there is no such thing
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: speed is NIC and media thing
[12:13] LaNani Sundara: if it were chunked then it coudl be throttled
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: It does slow down the average speed of transmission.
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: average! exactly
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: so long pauses and then big files in ONE send
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: I said average long ago
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: yes it brings down the average
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: girl.. grrr
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: but thats pointless
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Whether you do it by a burst of data then a pause, or breaking the data up in to chunks with time between it is still mostly the same thing in the end.
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: its a few seconds or less burts
[12:14] LaNani Sundara: a mesh is still send in one burst
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: not optimal but better than nothing
[12:15] LaNani Sundara: a big mesh or texture will still be send as one thing
[12:15] LaNani Sundara: not chunked
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: yes.. but then there is time for UDP and other ppl meshs assets etc
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: unlike 0.8 and your change
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: Grrr
[12:15] LaNani Sundara: there is that time already its done with a queue remember?
[12:15] LaNani Sundara: everyone does get its thing send
[12:15] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: her changes have worked very nicely at a couple different places for events
[12:16] LaNani Sundara: you just pause pointlessly
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: no it they don't
[12:16] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: mesh rezzes very very quickly
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Do we need to put LaNani and Ubit in a boxing ring together then take side bets as to who will come out the victor?  ;)
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: uff give up explaining  :p
[12:17] LaNani Sundara: cos it doesnt artificially sits and waits for no readon
[12:17] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: whereas at plaxza's it takes 5 minutes or more
[12:17] LaNani Sundara: reason*
[12:17] LaNani Sundara: you already use a queue Ubit
[12:17] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: its the difference between theory and reality
[12:18] LaNani Sundara: why make things wait based on their byte size?
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: in our regions http bandwith must be limited in relation to viewer UDP bandwith settings
[12:18] LaNani Sundara: ok so next mesh is big lets wait n x10000 bytes
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: and i will not repeat this anymore :p
[12:18] LaNani Sundara: you do not limit the bandwidth that way
[12:19] LaNani Sundara: you send the mesh in one go after the artificial wait anyway
[12:19] LaNani Sundara: k grr ;p
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: grr all throttles work by bursts
[12:19] LaNani Sundara: yes but that makes them pointless in this case
[12:20] LaNani Sundara: why must i wait for the next texture or mesh? and wait a relative time based on its size
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: fine do as you want on yr regions
[12:20] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: :eyerolls"
[12:20] LaNani Sundara: you know i will ;p
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I think the only way anyone will win this argument is for the code to be seen to make sure both sides know what part of the code is being discussed for possible changes.
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: i said long ago i do not like the grain side.. rest of discution is beeing waste of time now :p
[12:21] LaNani Sundara: :p
[12:21] LaNani Sundara: and anyone can have to code who wants it ;p
[12:22] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: its what i use for mine
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[12:22] LaNani Sundara: 0.8 had no " throttles" like that
[12:22] LaNani Sundara: right?
[12:22] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: why dont you try testing it on some loaded regions Ubit
[12:22] George Equus: Ring is ready,,, just in case
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: even singu did add http high grain throttles.. but you know better.. fine
[12:23] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: never mind all the theory....test
[12:23] LaNani Sundara: i know nothing ;p
[12:23] LaNani Sundara: i just do :D
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: You would need to do testing with lots of other activity happening at the same time, like voice chat with multiple users in a region.
[12:24] George Equus: I once had teacher saying " I don't care how you do to get to the finish line, just get there"
[12:24] LaNani Sundara: maybe i can convince you to do some changes to the avatarfactory at least :D
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: this was active at avn for some 2 years or so
[12:24] LaNani Sundara: so?
[12:24] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: where is avination?
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: ( and not my original code.. but teravus
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: ohh now you are beeing silly no ?
[12:25] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: megaregions were teravus code too , where is that now?
[12:25] LaNani Sundara: 2 years maybe time to have a look at it again
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: " where is avination" is that a question on this issue ?
[12:25] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: no Ubit. Point is now we have lots of mesh
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: and mesh is slow rezzing
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: and we had them already and textures
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: her code speeds it up significantly
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, again I suggest that if you think your changes really help improve OpenSim you need to file a mantis and show the code. I don't think you will get anywhere otherwise.
[12:26] LaNani Sundara: the queues polling timer in the AvatarFactory and the scene wide singe lock object beg for changes
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: Ubit has made up his mind. His way or no way
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[12:27] LaNani Sundara: i understand Andrew but i also have limited time :) so i usually try convince my buddy Ubit :)
[12:27] LaNani Sundara: we do not have to always agree
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: why did i wasted time trying to explain WHY to have to ready this anyway ??
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: LaNani, right but you would also be making him have to duplicate the work you have already done.
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar @bound2.no-ip.org:8002: your why's were not convincing in the face of multiple tests already done
[12:28] LaNani Sundara: i can give him the code but then he'd have to look for the differences, i know i am sorry
[12:28] LaNani Sundara: i am just not into doing all the paperwork needed, i just like to code

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