Chat log from the meeting on 2017-11-28

From OpenSimulator

Jump to: navigation, search

[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks We might as well start. With this size crowd I think we already have most of the people here that are going to drop by.
[11:12] JayR.Cela :_)
[11:12] steve Franklin: Sounds good!
[11:13] JayR.Cela I see that this sim has switched to OpenSim Dev d35ab8c (Unix/Mono) / thats good :_)
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks I haven't made time to do more on the 0.9 release. I want to spend some time on the release notes to have them in reasonable shape in time for the OSCC.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well and about opensim.. any new issues?
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: sorry i did not advanced mutes that much last week :(
[11:14] Sheera Khan: slow and steady goes the winner ;-)
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: With Turkey Day in the US and other obligations, I did not have time to break anything in OpenSim in the last week!
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: im going to have a fight with jenkins... a lot of files grrr
[11:15] steve Franklin: Is there any plans to update the OSCC grid before the OSCC? Might be way too late now anyway
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks I mostly completed my work on a PHP based mutelist module. I got it working and am just doing final prep before pushing the code to github.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: somthing like 10 files to add mutes .. yeackkk
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: The time to change version s at OSCC is AFTER the conference.
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, I have a lot less than that. One SQL file, one prebuild file, and one .cs file.
[11:16] steve Franklin: yes for next year!
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks oh, and the PHP file, of course.
[11:16] steve Franklin: or in the summer so it is pretty current
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: im not doing a php one :p
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar is it still on .8.2?
[11:16] Bill.Blight 0.8.2 post fixes, yes
[11:17] steve Franklin: yes
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar so should have been updated after last years conference
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: think they are running a mod version by justin
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks There has been talk of updating the code running the OSCC regions but it hasn't been done yet
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks That's got to be a rather old version by now
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar but is there a team for fine tuning it like they have in past years
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks dang it. I just triggered some magic keyboard sequence and changed the viewers screen resolution.
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks I couldn't do that if I wanted to. :P
[11:19] steve Franklin: lol
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks For the PHP mute list module I'm working on making sure I don't have any "using" or "Reference" lines that were copied from other modules and aren't needed.
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks I tried putting them in a partial alphabetic order but I've discovered the order makes a difference. It isn't as easy as in C to know what the order should be.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: well it is like C , just easier in some cases
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: ::p
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit, only easy if you know the code enough to know the hierarchy of the modules used.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: c compilers where not forgiving
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks No, which is nice. A lot easier to know when you messed up order.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: but.. well code did run :p
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: did ?? does.. i still use plain C
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks I'll get it sorted eventually and then push the code so others can try it out.
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks The OSCC is just under two weeks away. If you plan to attend, don't forget to register. There is no cost to do so.
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks The OSCC website has the list of this years panels available.
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks Any one else have any issues to talk about?
[11:28] James.atLLOUD I'm not clear on how Ubit's mute work differs from what Andrew is doing.
[11:28] James.atLLOUD Does it?
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks yes, they are different.
[11:29] Bill.Blight Just centralized estate management Banlist is broken
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks My version is an addon module that uses PHP for some of the work involving maintaining mutelist information in a database. The version Ubit is working on won't need any exernal PHP source and that code will become part of the core code.
[11:30] James.atLLOUD Ah, ok. that helps, thank you.
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks yw
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks Having gotten this PHP based module working I could update XMute but I don't see the point in doing that as it would duplicate some of what Ubit is working on.
[11:31] James.atLLOUD ah.
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: xmute will be removed
[11:32] Bill.Blight I'm in favor of the PHP module
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks The XMute module helped me complete my version. I no longer need it.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: was a nice quick start
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks The main thing I took from XMute is the code to do the CRC calculation.
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: well i "only" need to do and test the robust side :)
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: it was on libomv already
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks :)
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: but i made it core
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: no need to duplicate the code.. it is there on the framework
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: err or wil be :)
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks My version is all handled from an instance. I am interested to see how Ubit tied Robust in to the mix for his version.
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: libomv as a less generic implementation
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks ok. That could have eliminted the extra class in both XMute and my module.
[11:36] James.atLLOUD It still amazes me how many components make this virtual world work.
[11:36] steve Franklin: A Pile of them!
[11:36] Bill.Blight too many
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: A very large pile.
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: yeap it is there i did commit it
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: Crc32.cs on framework
[11:37] steve Franklin: ta-da!
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: ah. There is that file in libomv. I just found it.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: grrr
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems to be tied in with OpenMetaverseTypes.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: that is CRC32 i added Crc32
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: see my last commit
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Like that isn't going to confuse anyone. :)
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: mel's one is a bit more generic implementation
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: People will soon have a choice of mutelist implementations from which to choose.
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: I heard people were talking about the conference grid, so I popped in. If anyone has questions about the conference, I can try and answer them. :)
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, anything you want to say about this years conference?
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Only that you should all attend, present, or volunteer. ;) There's some nifty presentations this year.
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I did notice I'm not on the panel list for either keynote with the core team this year. As the 9th is a family birthday I'm not sure if I would be able to attend if I had been on the list.
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: You are *totally* welcome to be on that panel, Andrew.
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I had almost nothing to say last year.
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: Markus: When is the conference center going to get an upgrade to 0.9???
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: i already told you a few times.. change the birthday date :p
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: We were going to upgrade this year. We were quite excited about it. But Nebadon has been up to his eyebrows in his other work.
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I know. I don't think that is going to happen. Another family member will be coming over on that day.
[11:44] steve Franklin: I am available if anyone wants me on a panel
[11:44] James atLLOUD: I've been using the OSCC grid for the conference prep (and other things) and it's been rock solid for me.
[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Complicating matters, we depend a lot on Crista's proprietary Wifi module, and we can't upgrade until we know that that is ready for 0.9
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: think she did update it
[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: I think she did too, but there's also a question of whether she's done custom work just for OSCC. She may have, but we just don't know.
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I have installed the WiFi modules on a grid but I don't remember if I've tried it with 0.9
[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: The general Wifi modules I know are around for 0.9. But the conference grid needs the WifiGridServices module, which is a paid part of the Wifi module set.
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps by next year the oscc will be running 0.9
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: nahh 0.99999925
[11:46] steve Franklin: lol
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: surprising the OSCC is using proprietary software
[11:47] steve Franklin: Will OS ever hit 1.0? lol
[11:47] Marcus Llewellyn: I think it' is safe to say that we will be upgraded next year. This year our grid admin was just too busy. They've had him running all over the planet, literally.
[11:47] Leighton.Marjoram lol @ Steve
[11:47] James atLLOUD: <grins> has Google come out of beta?
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: yeap.. when we get 2 tired of adding '9's
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: well 1.0 doesn't mean that much
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah. I do have a test grid running 0.9 that uses the WiFi modules but just the free ones.
[11:48] Arielle Popstar crosses fingers we hit a release for .9.1
[11:48] Bill.Blight 1.0 alpha is really no different from .999999999999999999 alpha
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: many programs where 1.0 as soon someone did run them
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: we may be on one of those curves that approaches 1.0 but never reaches it. ;)
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: and many are 10.0 and not that much better than beta :)
[11:49] steve Franklin: That is true Ubit
[11:50] Sheera.Khan How about the coding mantra of releasing early and releasing often?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: The version number isn't that important other than to differentiate one bit of code from another. Firefox is up to v52 now and still going.
[11:50] Sheera.Khan we might reach 1.0 in our lifetime then ^^
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: often? yea, that's not been happening.
[11:50] Sheera.Khan 57 I think?
[11:50] Bill.Blight LOL, release slowly one group complains, release too often too fast the other side complains ... it is a no win scenario
[11:50] Sheera.Khan *giggles*
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, right
[11:51] steve Franklin: To me a 1.0 naturally is far from perfect. It will have it's flaws. Anything that is on V10 should at least be stable and pretty usable, not neccessarily have a good UI
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: need some more active devs in core
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: lets just say 0.9 release was a bit 2 slow
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Some distros try to release every 6 months. That still has its set of issues.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: and by its definition opensim is always alpha/beta thing
[11:52] Bill.Blight .9 is a good example , people scream that it should have been tested more, people scream it was ready for release, and sadly around half of each of those groups overlap ..
[11:52] steve Franklin: yes I think FF is doing the quick release thing a bit too quick
[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: Releasing often is one thing if it's just a thing where you click update (or auto-updates) and that's that. It's another thing when you have something a little less simple to upgrade like OS, to say nothing of upgrading an entire grid.
[11:52] steve Franklin: yes very true
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: steve, I'm just sort of pointing out that just because they got to 1.0 doesn't meant that its "done".
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: well 0.9 had some 2 yrs for ppl to test... so not enough testing ?? lol
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: no. They were all waiting for someone else to do the testing.
[11:53] steve Franklin: OS needs a relatively slow release schedule for big releases that will change a bunch of things.
[11:53] Bill.Blight Right Ubit, the people NOT testing it were the ones screaming it needed more testing, when they had every chance
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: core never had the man power to do testing
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: we do depend on ppl for that
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: there was some big changes to it from .8.2
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: indeed
[11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: How many are screaming because it genuinely has bugs and such and how many are just grumpy because their ancient stuff doesn't work any more and nobody bothered to update it?
[11:54] steve Franklin: that is something that we should work on more- testing and reporting
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and now a but less man power
[11:54] Bill.Blight Big changes, yet everyone expects this new fancy smancy thing to behave like their old jalopy ...
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Having osgrid running the (almost) latest code certainly helps a lot towards catching issues.
[11:54] Bill.Blight but they never tested it
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: noone really bothering to reports bugs
[11:55] Bill.Blight No one wants to report bugs, just complain about them
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: but then lot of bugs are now features :)
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:55] JayR.Cela :_)
[11:55] Bill.Blight Let's just say, bugs are not bugs, they are , "Support challenged features"
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: like -24 scripts on a region Grrrrr
[11:55] steve Franklin: lol
[11:56] steve Franklin: Ubit- what is that about?
[11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: The negative makes it run faster.
[11:56] Bill.Blight LOL
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think I've seen a negative number
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: i did a fix .. but seems it still happens grrr
[11:56] steve Franklin: hmmmm how many scripts were actually there?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and -45 active objects also :)
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: this region is showing positive
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... could it be not counting scripts in attachments when people enter but counting them whey they leave?
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: must be running backwards
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Other than this meeting, which has at most 2 core devs, the only opportunity for engagement for users and core devs is on IRC. I haven't gotten an opensim-dev mailing-list email in eons. This is perhaps something to ponder.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: i already told ppl opensim does not have fingers.. so how can it count right ?? grrr
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: to ponder is how to get more active devs
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, are you not subscribed? Perhaps the mail is going to your spam folder.
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: More devs *and* more testers. OSgrid used to be a hotbed of testing. We used to see more core devs here as well.
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: Long, long ago.
[11:59] Bill.Blight in a galaxy far far away
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well osgrid is now also a full grid
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: arent devs considered inactive if they havent contributed in 6 months?
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: I should be subscribed, unless the list got changed over or something.
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: no longer the old test platform
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I know I mainly come in to this grid for this meeting. I'm rarely in here at other times.
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: whats it going to take to let some fresh blood in?
[12:00] Bill.Blight It comes down to the fact that "people" treat this like it is a "commercial" product, and they don't see it as a project , and end users just expect it to work, and not be something they have to work on .
[12:01] Bill.Blight so people just don't get involved
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: I think most people will be like that, agreed. But there are those on the bleeding edge who love to break crap. They just need engagement.
[12:02] Leighton.Marjoram nods @ Marcus
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: For me, the main code base is too big and mostly undocumented. Too big for me to want to spend the time getting to know it so I could do more work on the coding.
[12:02] Bill.Blight well yeah, but those are not what I would consider "end users" more "power users" and that group tends to beg for dev interaction, but that group is very small, at least the vocal ones
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Becoming a core dev isn't a light thing either. Even if someone might be interested, there's a long path to 'getting in' and then you need the time and energy to work on things.
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Its a pretty serious commitment.
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I tried to see when the last message went out to opensim-dev but I can't find one still in my email program. Probably need to check the archives.
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: doesnt seem like considering the amount of inactive core dev's sitting in core
[12:03] Bill.Blight There should not be such a hard path, I fear making it as hard as it is, may have run off some real talent .... (not saying everyone should get in) ... Just sayin'
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Otaku, It took me quite a while to get somewhat comfortable being able to do what little work I've done on the core code.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Just learning to navigate the code base to find things takes time.
[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: There have been 9 list msgs this month. Yeah, I maybe need to resubscrbe or something.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Use of monodevelop helped.
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: i know 2 devs working on changes to code that we test regularly. They dont get much in response from core except No, no, or no
[12:05] Bill.Blight I can tell you this, I know a LOT of people who are good at this type of thing and will not even consider talking to core, because of a perceived "attitude" from the "elite"
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: yes@ Bill
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, some ISP's have strict anti-spam that block legit mail. The domain needed DKIM and/or SPF records or else some sites block the mail.
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: The bald truth is that core needs a "people person". One who's quite active and in the know. We used to have core devs like that... they've burned out or moved on over time.
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, yea. we might chain to a wall and never let them go. ;)
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: can always check here too
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: Misterblue! What is going on with mantis #8010 (some collisions do not generate collision events)?
[12:07] Bill.Blight Part of the issue, is not everyone who is considered "CORE" needs to be a coder , you need designers, PR people, and spokes people .. Let's face it coders are not always the best face for the world ..
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm more of a people person. I'm sort of in the know. I know about the "attitude" that one might get when passing along items from the non-core. :)
[12:07] Misterblue Waves: Kayaker: I'm thinking it is fixed. Is it still a problem for some?
[12:08] Kayaker Magic: I didn't know it was fixed! I'll go test it and remove the mantis.
[12:08] Kayaker Magic: I mean, mark it as closed.
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if Misterblue hasn't changed their clocks yet. :)
[12:09] steve Franklin: I agree with Bill
[12:11] steve Franklin: OS Dev does need a couple of "front people" to interface with the community
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: misterblue, any information you want to pass along?
[12:11] Bill.Blight People need to be able to suggest ideas, without fear of getting "yelled" at ... Does not mean every idea has to be taken, but sometimes you find a diamond in the rough ..
[12:11] steve Franklin: that way the devs can do their work and not have to deal with craziness
[12:12] Misterblue Waves: and need more active devs.... people have ideas but code needs to be written
[12:12] Bill.Blight Agreed Misterblue
[12:12] Bill.Blight but lack of devs, should not stop the flow of ideas either
[12:12] Misterblue Waves: some of the defensiveness is about people telling the devs what to do... it doesn't feel good being ordered around
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Misterblue, yes but that gets back to a couple of points made earlier.
[12:13] steve Franklin: true Bill
[12:13] Misterblue Waves: it's not like the devs are getting paid or are part of a company with a roadmap
[12:13] Leighton.Marjoram nods @ Bill
[12:13] Bill.Blight I agree that "end users" need to stop telling devs how to do what they do .. yet at the same time, nice does not seam to work either
[12:13] Misterblue Waves: so there is some diplomacy about suggesting ideas... not that they are bad
[12:14] Bill.Blight If an idea is disliked by ONE dev, the screaming starts
[12:14] Misterblue Waves: IMA is trying to create a place for ideas to be suggested and developed
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: There is Patreon (and similar things) if someone wants to try and get a form of sponsorship to help them and encourage them to keep working on a project.
[12:14] Misterblue Waves: IMA doesn't have any developers... it is trying to just be an organizational place
[12:14] Leighton.Marjoram being open rather than defensive to the idea is a good place to start
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: The line "can't we all just get along" popped in to my head. I think that is a movie reference but I don't know which movie.
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: prob i see with IMA is there are no logs of their meetings so difficult for new people to come up to speed on whats happening
[12:15] Bill.Blight I can tell you this, people are less likely to donate to a place they have been screamed at than a place that has been nice to them
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: True.
[12:16] steve Franklin: very true
[12:16] Misterblue Waves: I'll suggest that to IMA.... it is true it is hard to 'get into' the flow there
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Are the IMA meetings done in text chat or voice?
[12:16] Selby.Evans Rodney Glen King (April 2, 1965 – June 17, 2012) was an African-American resident of Los Angeles who was violently arrested by officers of the L.A. Police Department. The event was videotaped by a bystander, and the incident raised a public outcry among those who believed it was a racially motivated and gratuitous attack. The acquittal in a state court of the four defendants, charged with using excessive force, provided the spark that led to the 1992 Los Angeles riots.
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: nods. Voice is wonderful but not very searchable
[12:17] Misterblue Waves: they have been doing voice lately
[12:17] Selby.Evans People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along? Can we stop making it, making it horrible for the older people and the kids? … It’s just not right. It’s not right. It’s not, it’s not going to change anything. We’ll, we’ll get our justice … Please, we can get along here. We all can get along. I mean, we’re all stuck here for a while. Let’s try to work it out. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to beat it. Let’s try to work it out.
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I can skim a transcript. I am less likely to sit through a long voice recording.
[12:18] steve Franklin: yes a good point Andrew
[12:18] steve Franklin: words in print are much easier to go thru
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I rarely llisten to podcasts
[12:18] Bill.Blight a point that has been made repeatedly
[12:18] steve Franklin: having this in chat has always been a good idea
[12:18] steve Franklin: Old tech!
[12:18] Selby.Evans Recordings are not useful, but IMA could post summaries
[12:19] steve Franklin: yes true
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Minutes of a meeting would help.
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: summaries are limited
[12:19] Kayaker Magic: I'll test those bulletsim mantises by then!
[12:19] Arielle Popstar: its good to know who is supporting what and detailed
[12:19] Bill.Blight Meeting minutes should be taken any way , Robert's Rules and all that
[12:20] James atLLOUD: Chat from this meeting is so useful (TY Sheera).
[12:20] steve Franklin: true if it is an official meeting where decisions are made with an agends
[12:20] Bill.Blight Hard to call anything, "official" if there is no record of it
[12:20] steve Franklin: true
[12:20] steve Franklin: the record actualy makes it official
[12:20] Arielle Popstar: yes it is nice out
[12:20] James atLLOUD: I keep in mind that this, and other OSource systems, are fairly new in civilization. Still social works in progress.
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: It is as official as it can be, assuming no one is massively editing the text before it gets posted. :)
[12:24] Sheera.Khan I'm redacting the chat log a bit though to make it better readable

Personal tools
About This Wiki