Chat log from the meeting on 2017-10-10

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[11:12] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: I saw and spoke with Ubit this morning for a bit
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: then he was off to real but didnt mention how long
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: He is working on Ode apparently
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: was getting him to look at some code changes by non core dev that helped with laggy mesh rezzing
[11:15] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: mesh stuff rezzes faster so it makes quite a difference when there is a room full of mesh avatars
[11:17] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I'd try pinging an OSgrid admin, but don't see any online at the moment.
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: a few weeks back i mentioned one method whereby the unknown creator/hypergrid creator names were replaced with region owner names
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: that worked to get rid of lag but now zeroing in more where the prob is with caching
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: so trying one method involving commenting out a line in UserManagementModule.cs
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: scene.EventManager.OnPrimsLoaded += new EventManager.PrimsLoaded(EventManager_OnPrimsLoaded);
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: that helps avatars to rezz faster
[11:22] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Arielle, is the issue only hypergrid users?
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: no, general
[11:23] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ok thanks.
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: go to lbsa for example and people coming in with mesh can take a bit to rezz
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: people already there will take quite a while 5+ minutes for all to show
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: if like 5-10 peoople there
[11:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: A lot of those types of issues can be fixed with faster servers, and the improved HTTP server that Ubit is working on. I don't ever seem to have an issue seeing mesh most places. Some texture lag but not mesh ..
[11:24] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is slow it normally takes about 1 1/2 minutes for me on Safari to see everyone
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: how much mesh Leighton?
[11:25] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: people often pare down if going out on the HG
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: A fair amount I would assume both avatars and environment rez in a about 2 minutes. Textures are the worst for me.
[11:26] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: textures seem to be the last thing for me too.
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i dont have an issue with the region stuff but do see a lot of slowness for any avatar stuff
[11:26] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: if their avatar complexity is near 400000 then that is a problem
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: especially for products picked up on the HG
[11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: times that by 10 people thats a huge problem right there
[11:27] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: As an example, went to a event on SL he other day EVERYONE, had mesh avatars, complexity over 200k for each one some over 300k, LAG LAG LAG, with 12 avatars , region on OS with 30 avatars and almost the same amount of lag .. I think you will find that a LOT of mesh lag is viewer side, not server side ..
[11:27] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: nods @ Bill
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: well viewer or server it is still lag
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: and with commenting out that line avi's rezzed a lot faster
[11:28] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: there are distinctions between the two one the user can do something about the other only a server admin can manage
[11:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: If turning complexity down on your viewer stops the lag, then there is NOTHING that the server can do to change that, it is already on your system
[11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: (of course I mean for a region that is fully loaded, not loading)
[11:30] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: would it be possible for a viewer to have a performance tool that identifies server v. client? Does that already exist?
[11:31] Sheera Khan: If the HTTP-server component of .net resp. mono is such an issue why not use nginx or apache? Since the region cache is acting as a proxy we could use squid as a substitute too I guess
[11:31] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: advanced > performance tools
[11:31] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Firestorm has lag meter, but not sure what it means.
[11:31] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: All is normal at the moment.
[11:31] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: :P
[11:32] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Sheera: OSgrid uses nginx for load balancing. I don't remember if it caches or not.
[11:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: One thing is the OS server renders NO graphics, it does not render anything graphically, everything you se is rendered locally , Physics are calculated on the server and then sent, but displayed locally ... 85% of what you see in OS or in SL for that matter is all done on your local PC
[11:34] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Arielle, did your earlier comment about unknown user have something to do with the lag?
[11:34] Sheera Khan: @Marcus: I guess that's why they use a filesystem based asset server
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: yes apparently to do with trying to retrieve creator names from grids that are down or otherwise inaccessable
[11:35] Sheera Khan: but mostly the viewer gets the assets from the region cache... and there is no nginx buffering it
[11:35] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Ok, ty.
[11:35] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: @Sheera: in part. That's also just much more scalable than MySQL is, and easier for things like deduplication.
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I also use filebased assets, much easier to manage , overall
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: i can put on some hairs and you can see how long it takes for you to see the hair complete on my head
[11:37] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: OK / any thoughts on the Kokua viewer ?
[11:37] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Kokua needs more devs.
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: only thing i dont know if the code here is different from master in that regard
[11:38] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: How long it takes me to see it here, and how long it might take me to see it someplace else is relative to the speed of the servers,
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: not just the speed of the servers
[11:39] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: the last time I used Kokua it seemed to be noticeably faster at rezzing things / sad to see it go
[11:39] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: the speed of the asset server and internet connection is going to make the biggest difference
[11:39] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: are there still plans to develop Kokua as an Opensim specific viewer?
[11:39] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Kokua used to be my favorite viewer. Sadlty, it has a terrible framerate these days, and the OpenSim version lags behind LL code.
[11:40] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I was, however, able to HG here from Kitely.
[11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that is because the OS version is not trying to keep up with the LL code
[11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it can't
[11:40] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: over the next couple of versions of the LL code, the LL code will no longer be compatible with OS
[11:41] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: yeah / so whats that mean for FireStorm ?
[11:41] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they have already said they will focus on SL first
[11:42] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I have talked with Jessica and there is little support planed for OpenSim
[11:42] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: oh no not my Firestorm ...
[11:42] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: at the current speed of Opensim development it will be a while before the current viewers are outdated for opensim
[11:42] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Yes , moving forward OS support from FS will only be as an afterthought
[11:42] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I know, right? @leighton
[11:42] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: /a tear rolls down my cheek
[11:42] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm addicted to the script pre-processor in FireStorm, can't live without it!
[11:43] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: Alchemy is pretty nice
[11:43] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: isnt that based on the Firestorm code base?
[11:43] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: it runs well on my Linux box's
[11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Cinder kind of does her own thing, so no telling what there is in Alchmey, LOL .. but it works good
[11:44] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I use it as my backup viewer? It reminds me of the SL viewer.
[11:44] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: I had thought Alchemy was based on Singularity code / I was wrong / it is based on SL code
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar @hg.osgrid.org: what is s/l doing to make it incompatible?
[11:44] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Has Alchemey started to support 1024 draw distance yet? , need that 1024
[11:44] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: I could be wrong JayC
[11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: SL is totally changing their comms protocols
[11:45] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: physics too?
[11:45] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: physcis has nothing to do with the viewer
[11:45] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: Bill is that something that Opensim will have to do in the future?
[11:46] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: ohh? they are dumping Havok as the physics engine ?
[11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: At some point maybe, or maybe OS will take a left turn and go a new direction all together
[11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: No they are keeping Havok
[11:46] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: ah I see so there are different ways of updating the comms protocols.
[11:46] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: what I am saying is the physics engine you are using has nothing really to do with how the viewer talks to the servers
[11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: OpenSim has depended on libOMV for the LL protocol stack. Since Latif passed away, I don't know how well that has been maintained. And I'd dare to say that nobody knew the protocol as well as he did.
[11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: EXACTLY @Marcus
[11:47] James.Atlloud @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: isn't Cinder maintaining them now?
[11:47] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But that libOMV is not going to matter anymore, once LL takes their turn, and they don't plan on at this point opensourcing it like they did before
[11:47] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: I know Cinder decided to maintain Radegast, but I don't know about libOMV.
[11:48] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: libOMV was created before the viewer was open sourced. ;) The protocol was not derived from viewer code, it was reverse engineeered. But that's not a trivial undertaking.
[11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: right I meant they don't plan on opensourcing the viewer this time, for reverse engineering
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: https://bitbucket.org/cinderblocks/libremetaverse
[11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think FS said they had to sign some new agreement or something
[11:49] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: to use the LL code
[11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Viewer isn't needed. All you need is a proxy. LibOMV comes with one.
[11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: That's interesting.
[11:50] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Once LL changes the comms protocols libOMV becomes useless for talking to SL
[11:51] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: As long as they aren't encrypting the protocol, using a proxy to see the data isn't hard. The hard part if making sense of it.
[11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: they are eliminating UDP all together, going totally HTTP, and from what I read some propritary thing they wrote
[11:51] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: similar to what they are using for sansar
[11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: Yeah, that's been in the cards for quite some time.
[11:52] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: LLUDP is an antiquited monster.
[11:53] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: UDP is as old as dirt / stupid idea in todays times
[11:53] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yeah don't get me started on LLUDP, it is like the bastard child of 14 other bastard children
[11:53] JayR.Cela @grid.3rdrockgrid.com:8002: made sense back in 1960
[11:55] Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.avacon.org:8002: To be honest, this could be the kick in the pants OpenSim has needed for a long time. We've been to reliant on LL protocols and clients for far too long.
[11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I agree with you Marcus
[11:55] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: We need a wakeup call , a real one, not just breakfixes
[11:56] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: but considering how many people don't like .9x , imagine what is going to happen when things REALLY CHANGE
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: whats not to like about .9?

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