Chat log from the meeting on 2017-06-27

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[10:54] Ubit Umarov: Selby that textures issue u had..
[10:54] Ubit Umarov: i also seen you like that here
[10:54] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Saw my article?
[10:54] Ubit Umarov: so guess it was a baking issue
[10:55] Ubit Umarov: yeap seen it
[10:55] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: thanks for fixing it
[10:55] Ubit Umarov: guess for some reason yr viewer was making bad baked issues
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: ohh i mean your avatar problem.. i did nothing on it :)
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: yr avatar disease
[10:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Oh yes -- np on that --
[10:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/06/2017-ima-wg-31-tmffail-succeeds.html
[10:57] Sheera Khan: Hi Bill :-)
[10:57] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Howdy all
[10:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi bill
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: ok
[10:59] Sheera Khan: I can read the grid-tag so I assume your username is "Unknown UserUPUUI"
[11:01] Kayaker Magic: I'm waiting for chairs to rez....
[11:01] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: TMFFail succeeds. The benefits of problem analysis https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2017/06/2017-ima-wg-31-tmffail-succeeds.html
[11:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: congrats Selby
[11:04] Kayaker Magic: Don was bothered by that bug, will he be here today?
[11:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: There was a benefit in making the point that we have to have a replicable test to get something fixer
[11:05] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: glad that it got fixed so quickly
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I have a difficult to reproduce problem now:
[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: checking on Don -- he is not on line
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I started having trouble on region crossings in vehicles.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: I went back and tried it between two empty regions: no problem!
[11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kayaker -- lets talk later about how to make that problem reproduceable
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: When I tried it from an empty region into a busy one, the crossing often failed.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: Busy meaning lots of scripts running there.
[11:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: why not here Selby there might be someone here who could help
[11:08] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: You are right Kayaker
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: i had the idea this was the place to discuss opensim issues with opensim devs
[11:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: there are many things you can do to make region crossings easier .. .Trusting binaries in the ini to true helps, sharing the scriptenginecache between regions helps, as well as sharing the assetcache between regions .. Don't reccommend that for every region but for vehicle regions it helps ... or just use a big Var, and don't worry about it .. LOL :P
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: im i wrong now? :)
[11:09] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.opensim.life:8002: that was my thoughts too Ubit
[11:09] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ditto
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: well crossings are very dependent on comunications "weather" and regions load of course
[11:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ^^
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: "Communication weather", I like that phrase!
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: they can only work if both regions have fast comms btw them and grid services
[11:11] Sheera Khan: I think, Selby's intention was not to stiffle the discussion about a problem but how to provide an environment to reproduce the effect
[11:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I think region crossings are a well known issue, and easily reproducible ... Not sure there needs to be a test case for region crossings .... Not every issue needs an independent test case ..
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: well this is the place to discuss opensim issues with opensim devs..
[11:14] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Wow, looks like 45 items in the Git shortlog since last Tuesday. Woo.
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: plus mantis.. mail lists etc
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: any other forums are.. well other forums
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: What are the security issues with "trust binaries" "share script cache" and "share asset cashe" in the ini file?
[11:14] Kayaker Magic: I recall they are surrounded with warnings.....
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: NEVER trust binaries
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: unless you do run ALL regions
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: and not HG
[11:15] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: On a private server, there are few issues, on a publically connected grid .. what ubit said
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: hmm did i made it simple ? :)
[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Sheera stated my objective -- Kayaker said it was not reproducible. I was suggesting we try to figure out how to reproduce it. If it happens on crossing into a busy region, say one out of 4 times, it is reproduceable.
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: I'll have to find an easy way to make a region "busy", like give Ubit a scripted object and tell him to put 20 copies of it in a region.
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: then a scripted vehicle that drives back and forth across the border until it fails....
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: that lsl list script does load regions kayaker
[11:17] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Region crossings are trouble ... the fact that crossing to a busy region makes it slower/rougher is just a fact of computing power/connection, just like your PC slows down when you have a bunch of stuff running ... So it is a logical conclusion, that unless a new way to handle BUSY is achieved.
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: you see crossings on a closed well controlled grid also be bad ocasional ( yes i mean that grid )
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I don't mind slow, but what I have seen is complete failure, loss of control of avatar, unable to stand up off vehicle, need to relog.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: The Lindens had a lengthy discussion what happens in their simulators when crossing into them when they are busy or near full
[11:18] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Kayaker, you have have plenty of scripted aninmals to make a region busy.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: major slowdowns happens
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: llListens stop working in the viewer script.... lots of things happen.
[11:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is unavoidable
[11:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I can make a single script that will make your region way more busy than you ever want it ... (yeah found that with a screw up) LOL
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: llListens stop hm that should not happen
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: Again, I would put up with a slowdown, but needing to relog my viewer is much more annoying.
[11:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Again .. I just use Vars, eliminates the problem ... Don't use a screwdriver as a hammer .... LOL (yes I am just being cheeky)
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: var regions exist for that
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: for naval and aircraft simulations
[11:20] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: In SL, trains used to stop and wait at region crossings.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: Selby things used to blowup at sl crossings :)
[11:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: of course you could always tp the vehicle to the nearby region at the crossing ...
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: The vehicle I was using had a HUD, the listens between the hud and the vehicle stopped working after a crossing, and so did the control event, so I just traveled in a straight line.
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: they do have them a lot better now..
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: and so do we..
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: still far from perfect.. but well its opensim ;)
[11:21] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, Ubit -- that is why they did the stop and wait.
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: yeah possible there is a issue with that hud case.. can't tell now
[11:23] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: With stop and wait, the SL trains usually got through
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: Var regions are a good place to have a race or some other social vehicle event, but being able to cross borders in vehicles creates a larger sense of community in a grid.
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: yeap stoping while crossing is done is a way..
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: just breaks immersion totaly
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Stop, get out of your train, fill out a visa, walk across the border, get into another train there. I had to do that between Hong Kong and China a few years ago.
[11:24] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ubit's osTeleportObject, IMHO, actually works better than border crossings .. I think because the sim does not have to decide where you are, it just puts you there ... but that is just my subjective thoughts ..
[11:24] George Equus: suspended animation
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: btw kayaker understand that trust binaries is a NO NO ?
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: Yes, I understand.
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ok
[11:25] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: YES , you don't want to pass into public or untrusted sims with trust binaries on
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: it can help crossings a bit
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: but main issue is comms
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well "still"
[11:26] Kayaker Magic: So is it a code problem or a security problem?
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: u said there is a issue also with KFM ?
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: is a big security issue
[11:27] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: can regions anticipate a grid crossing - a likelihood of crossing based on distance from the border?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: code is only fact that regions can be running diferent versions of the script engine and so fail
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: security is the BIG problem
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: I thought the reason I was seeing border crossing issues and you were not was because my vehicle used KFM and yours were using ubODE to cross. But in testing I found it was the "busy" issue, not the KFM issue.
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: KFM does not use physics engines
[11:28] Kayaker Magic: I know! That is why I love it!
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: well i still don't like it
[11:29] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But bouncing off of terrain and jumping over physical objects, just does not work in KFM, even though it has it's uses
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: during merge i made the mistake of mergion opensim code on it.. i should had replaced it fully by avn code
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: I sell KFM based vehicles on Kitely and say "This vehicle works DESPITE ODE, ubODE, Havok, PhysX or Bullet!"
[11:30] Kayaker Magic: In other words one KFM script can work in many grids with different physics engines.
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: assuming the script engines are updated :p
[11:31] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes Kayaker, and I love your stuff for that reason ...
[11:32] Kayaker Magic: I'm trying to bring something over from Kitely....
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well at irc channel there was a discussion bc of osGetAgentIP() that i did remove last night
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: any foughts on that ?
[11:33] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I think it is the right decision
[11:33] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: you know my thoughts, I want it back, or at least for Grid Owner only
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I support that Ubit
[11:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: used it to easily get griefer IP's to ban on FW, now back to searching the logs ... but such is life
[11:34] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: especially when I remember the RedZone desaster in another grid
[11:34] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But that disaster could have been avoided by a person who understood networking , and actually paid attention.
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: well i may be "talked into" putting it back only for gods..
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: but i would prefer not to
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Make it a console command
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: that would be enough to make me happy
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: isn't one there already ?
[11:35] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not to just get ip , never seen it .. is it undocumented?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: no idea
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: i get lost reading that help :)
[11:36] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no kidding
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: but yes console is a proper place to have that info
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: imo
[11:37] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: no the show users full does not show IP
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: gavin about viewers
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: nicky told u my talk about local textures ?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: viewers fail on that.. making dyn textures fail :(
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when seen across region borders?
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: looked to singu code.. there is host provision
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: but only used for baked avatar textures..
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at the outset the viewers don't know much about dynamic textures
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: if even on that
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: yeap they assume all textures are global
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: so doesn't matter where to ask for them
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they know about animated but not dynamic unless they are media on a prim
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that is a completely different route
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: they ask about moap to the obejct region ?
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: well they get it on object update
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: no need to ask
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the viewer must be notified by the server there are dynamic textures
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: well that is minor issue ..
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and then know how to and when to update them
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: identical and worse is avatar names
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: viewers ask those to the wrong regions all the time
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: ( on other grids even )
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: shall we pull an update for the texture every frame for instance?
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: that breaks HG and NPCs
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: no no.. textures are heavy
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: and dyn textures on regions shoulf also have low update rates
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: they are also heavy region side to draw
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since the texture is not generated by the viewer, they have to be pulled from the server
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: every update
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: as i said.. they are not GIMP replacement
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Get lost on your way here Andrew?
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: but usefull if used right
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: some core devs want them removed...
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: i did veto that, so would plugh and all others :)
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would be better to treat the dynamic texture as a moap face
[11:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I wouldn't be happy either
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: they are a nice ( hard to use) feature to have and use right
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the content is usually routed from someplace entorely different directly to the viewer
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: GIMP replacement?
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and rendered by the SL plugin and placed in a buffer that is rendered by OpenGL
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: yes Andrew dyn textures are not GIMP replacement...
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: No, but they are useful things for quick temporary signs.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: yes thats my point also
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it is generated by the OS server, it has to be pulled from the server for every update to every connected viewer in the scene
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: hm and yes gavin... something to see
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if the texture gets updated every blue moon it is not an issue
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but if you make like a news ticker...
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: You don't want someone using it as a way to do some kind of animation. :)
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: viewers are told about the update etc no prob
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: on a standalone only all works fine
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: prob is on a nearby region
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: bc viewer consideres textures global assets
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: so it asks for it to the avatar main region.. that does not have it
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: boingnn white .. and broken for ever on viewer cache
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it can't ask for it at the main region
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that would not work at all
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: it does
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: ( well now at sl asks to cdn whatever )
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: IN SL that will of course work
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: viewers are sl viewers on that
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because everything points back to one asset server
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in Hypergrid it does not
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: never notices issues on hg really
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that is of course only valid for static textures
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: possible they are there we just didn't notice
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the dynmic one are possibly not stored on the asset server in a rendered state?
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: dyns are local
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: not sent to asset server
[11:53] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the usual retrieval mechanisms for textures are broken
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: only work if you are on the same region
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: well only way i see is flag somewhere on the object that it has local assets
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: and viewer needs to ask to object region for them
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to ping the request via the asset server that queries the region that generates the texture to forward it to the viewer when off local
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: we can't allow dyn to be grid assets
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I did not say store
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: for that, we would need throotle and payed upload option
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: It could just be cached in the regions local cache of assets.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the asset server is going to know about the dynamic texture anyway
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: If it generates an asset the asset should be marked temporary.
[11:55] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: give it a special asset type
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: nopes asset server does not know about dyns
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when the viewer asks for a texture of that type, redirect the request to the generator
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: there are no flags for that now
[11:56] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: make one
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: yeap lets see
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we can't rewrite the viewer logic to send queries all over the place for assets that may or may not update
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: but really the names is a worse issue
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: sorry i spoke about the textures
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what's with names?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: similar issue
[11:58] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: the OS server knows about the dynamic feature so the server coud send the dyn texture as a special asset type and thus the asset server would know to delete it after some time, right?
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: viewers ask to wrong region
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meaning?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: asset server is a ugly beast :)
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: gavin if i tp to kitely now.. some kitely names are asked to this region
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: ( in fact if i log out now and log into SL fs may ask this region about sl names )
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: FS may
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but all viewers are not FS
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have never seen that at all
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: been at SL with ... UMMA.43 over my head :)
[12:00] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: it almost seems to me that there needs to be a seperate field in the name cache for home grid url
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: problem is FS preserves too much of the cach
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rather than discard it
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: well oh HG happens with all viewers
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: and NPCs
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: it is a timming thing also
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Viewers don't one cache per grid. That causes issues.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: so viewers eventually do change region..
[12:01] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: right ..
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: but do it at wrong time
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: There were some changes in the cache code that LL made in 2015 where there is a separate cache section per grid
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Kokua has it, I don't know if FS does
[12:02] Kayaker Magic: Viewers cache textures across grids even if you log out of one and onto the other.
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: as i said that breaks HG and NPCs
[12:02] Kayaker Magic: But then they drop sculptie textures from the cache as soon as you look away from them....
[12:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if you cached the home grid url with username, then IF the viewer was aware of the home grid, it could query that grid .. but that would require viewer changes
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: give me a reliable test case
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: it is the main cause for the UMM4X names
[12:02] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and I'll see if I can repro it because I have never seen it
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: u never seen umm4x names ?
[12:02] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I mean cached it in a separate field, not the name field
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not the last year or so
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: well some i did remove.. just let the uuid show up
[12:03] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I rarely see it .. almost never on Kokua
[12:03] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I saw one the other day
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and to refuse answers to names request if the avatar is in transit
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: but not good enought
[12:04] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but I think I screwed up something in the Kokua code that got reverted
[12:04] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: if I was happy with the radar and suitcase, I'd use kokua all the time, problem solved ... LOL
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: viewers need to ask to the correct region
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: well minimap .. fs seems to crash again bc of it with var regions of mixed size
[12:04] Kayaker Magic: Is there any way to detect the viewer asking the wrong region and redirect the request?
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right now I have on such user here
[12:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Unknown.UserUPUUI @thekaz.ddns.net:8002
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: no we can't do that redir region side
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: no info etc etc
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: nah that is not a error name
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: well not one i remember
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: yeap UserUPUUI not on our sources :)
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: Here is a full-perm script I wrote that exposed a lListen bug (already fixed!) I left it in a little plywood ball on the table. Wear it, go into mouse-look mode, left mouse and turn to pain temp prims in the air.
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: again that is not a SL issue avatar are global there
[12:07] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they are
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: the little ball ?
[12:08] Kayaker Magic: If you run that on an older OpenSim, it will eventually cause llListens to fail.
[12:08] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: as I see it, the viewer does not distinguish between local and remote users, it just slaps them in the cache, if it could store the home grid/server in a field separate from the username/display name , then maybe it could be made to query the correct server for the name .. I am just spitballing here
[12:08] Kayaker Magic: Yes, is it permed right? The little ball on the table.
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: so its master code issue?
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Looks fine, Kayaker
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the cache is sectioned per grid
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: ( sorry is a bug i need to fix or not ? )
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least our is
[12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: right per grid, but still not foreign user aware, not really, as far as names go
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: The llListen bug I am talking about is already fixed!
[12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: treats all users equally as far as names go
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: ok
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is very foreign user aware
[12:10] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I mean specifically as names go ..
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002 flüstert: how would you otherwise retrieve the status and profile of users on other grids?
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when they are not local?
[12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: or I should say display names (names to display, not display names in the sense of SL - the ed.)
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: profiles are a diff thing
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is no proper support for display names in OS
[12:11] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: yes, when they are not local, as ubit said, it just tries to query the local or wrong sim rather than just looking to see where the user is actually from ..
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: but display names is called and answered
[12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I did not mean display names as the function , I just meant the names we see
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: needs to
[12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and sometimes we see wrong names
[12:12] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it gets te account name
[12:12] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I'm just throwing stuff out .. so ignore me if I am way off base
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which for a foreign user has a name structure like mine Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:800
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: wel i did found part of the issue on singu source. but forgot where :p
[12:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it may very well be that OSgrid does not behave that way with the non standard profiles
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: forget profiles
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: is getUUID or similar and display names
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: they are sent to the wrong region on tps
[12:14] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: right but it is all stored in the same field as a local user ... but if you stored the name and the home grid separately, and then check that name/uuid against the home grid , instead of the local grid, MAYBE we could have a way to pull correct names 100% of the time
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: bc viewer seens new names it needs
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and sends the requests to a queue
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and that queue asks to the region where it is set to ask to
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: and that region is changed later on the tp
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there are edge cases right now where many usernames are not stored with the grid name in them
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and then it does of course not work
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: so some requested end up on the start region about avatars on the destiny region
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: see ?
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: its before cache
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: forget cache
[12:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have to go to a different machine to check what is actually in the db
[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is the table grid user
[12:18] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if I recall right it stores a pair of info that is used for the lookup
[12:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll see if I can make sense of it
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: The @ in an avatar name tells you the avatar is not local.
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Once you see that you know you need to query a foreign server for information relating to the avatar.
[12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I just don't think the viewer pays attention to the @ when displaying , looking up, the name ... But evidently the viewers are not connecting to the home grid for that info, they try to get it locally first
[12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: and we end up with unknowns
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: If that is the case the viewer devs need to apply a fix.
[12:24] Kayaker Magic: Yeah right.
[12:24] Kayaker Magic: I'll hold my breath until they do that.
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the viewers are architectured around a single authoritative source
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: The only other option would be for OS to forward requests for info to foreign places when asked for info about someone with an @ in their avatar name.
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you handle the reuest like a DNS query it would work
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but that requires server side logic
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be rather messy I suspect.
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is DNS messy?
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: DNS is designed to forward requests. I wouldn't expect OS is designed to operate the way DNS does.
[12:30] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: But if you can query foreign servers for profile, why not for names?
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: UPUII? That's new one.
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway, we're not going to solve this today :-)
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have started to add LL's code for animated meshes to the viewer
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will be their NPCs
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: animated meshes?
[12:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: rigged completely independent meshes
[12:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: under server control
[12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds interesting. Have they been deployed grid wide in SL or is it coming soon?
[12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there isn't even a public beta of it
[12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have added it to my private build
[12:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you rezz a rigged mesh it has a profile and can be IMed like an avatar
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Be careful about trying to implement that now until SL has released it to the public or you will potentially have the mess that happened with too early an adoption of mesh uploads.
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: A rigged mesh is being treated like an NPC?
[12:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there isn't anything special about he rigged mesh itself
[12:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: what if you just wanted a rigged mesh without it being an NPC like entity?
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is the control code in the viewer and server side that is different
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can mark it
[12:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so that is possibly a new DB flag
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: That is (or will be) a new setting in the viewer when you upload a mesh?
[12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they only added the commit for that today
[12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so have not checked it out yet
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably inventory
[12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of object profile flag
[12:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or*
[12:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it looks very cool

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