Chat log from the meeting on 2017-06-13

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[10:55] Ubit Umarov: hmm im in middle of pushs
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: to break it ALL
[10:57] Bill.Blight So What are we breaking today?
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: chaning UDP packets processing threading
[10:57] Bill.Blight cool
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: i did not like to see 300 threads on a object select
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: each user will get at most one thread
[10:58] Bill.Blight No , and that causes the texture apply issue on a large linkset I think ..
[10:58] Bill.Blight Or makes it worse, I should say
[11:03] Andrew.Hellershanks if we are all here it must be Tuesday. :)
[11:05] George Equus: Still no names in Radar
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks That must be Kayaker coming in
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, is that an AO that plays the sound on a TP?
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: ok.. did push the commit...
[11:06] Bill.Blight Kayaker Magic, Teleport Tones
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: your regions will now CRASH
[11:06] Bill.Blight I own it ... LOL
[11:06] Kayaker.Magic It is a prim I wear that detects the changed(REGION) event.
[11:06] Kayaker.Magic and plays a sound
[11:06] Kayaker.Magic I can also click on it before I leave.
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, ok Cool.
[11:09] Kayaker.Magic Anybody know why FireStorm 32bit has no My Suitcase folder?
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks Ubit has been busy again this past week having pushed a number of changes.
[11:09] Bill.Blight It's broken
[11:09] George Equus: Isn't one on OSGrid
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: hmm broken what ?
[11:09] George Equus: we don't use the Suitecase
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: Osgrid is on HG 1.0
[11:09] Bill.Blight There is something on their jira about it
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, might it be an older version? I only use the 64-bit viewers on my machines.
[11:10] Kayaker.Magic I know OSGrid has no suitcase, but I have all my HG LMs in my suitcase, and have to switch back to 64bit to see them so I can HG to here from other grids.
[11:11] Arielle Popstar: FS 64 bit has a suitcase for you here?
[11:11] Sheera Khan: yes, FS64 has
[11:12] Kayaker.Magic Yes, I can see my suitcase here.
[11:12] Bill.Blight well , it may not work as a suitcase here, but once it is created , you would see it , unless this is your home grid ..
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: suppose it would be as an HG visitors suitcase is dependent on their grid, not Osgrid
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: mb the source grid defines that
[11:14] Kayaker.Magic Well, with 64bit FS I can use my suitcase and the links it has to come here, but once here most of my inventory is unavailable.
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: yes because only what is in the suitcase is forwarded to the destination grid
[11:16] Bill.Blight Unavailable is set by your home grid ... As to if you have access while on the HG ..
[11:16] Sheera Khan: same here - but although the folders are (Unavailable) the content is not ^^
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: so if no suitcase..
[11:16] George Equus: Yes, have that when logged on on another grid, always keep dupes in the Suitcase for all essentials
[11:16] George Equus: but run 64bit..
[11:17] Kayaker.Magic Well the annoying thing is 32bit behaves different than 64bit so I have to switch back and forth. Does FS have office hours like this where I can ask them?
[11:17] Arielle Popstar: the HG setup needs to be changed
[11:18] Sheera Khan: Kay, the FS team has classes in SL where one can ask such things...
[11:18] Leighton.Marjoram Hi James
[11:18] Kayaker.Magic Yeah, I was just thinking they would probably hang out in SL.
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: but it is an opensim specific issue
[11:18] Arielle Popstar: can also go to their irc
[11:19] James.atLLOUD brb - going to relog to see if I get avatar names.
[11:19] Bill.Blight When you say behaves "differently" what do you mean?
[11:19] Arielle Popstar: it'll come James
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: hmmm i can still fly and cross regions with the new commits i did
[11:19] Arielle Popstar: its a slow loading issue
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: not that bad :)
[11:20] Arielle Popstar: was there a chance it wouldnt have Ubit?
[11:20] Kayaker.Magic FS 64bit has a MySuitcase folder and I can take it with me from grid to grid, FS 32bit does not and I cannot use it to carry items from Kitely to Here.
[11:20] Bill.Blight (in this day and age who should be using 32bit anyway .. LOL)
[11:20] Bill.Blight :P
[11:21] Arielle Popstar: it sounds like a viewer issue, noty an opensim one
[11:21] Kayaker.Magic There were some inventory problems reported in FS64bit and a recomendation to use the 32bit until the next release.
[11:21] Bill.Blight Yes it is, pretty sure there is a issue on the firestorm jira about it ..
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks What sort of inventory issues?
[11:21] Sheera Khan: the MySuitcase is Opensim specific though
[11:21] Selby.Evans Kayaker -- in 32bit FS. there is a suitcase, but you have to open it
[11:21] Kayaker.Magic Yeah, but it is a Viewer issue that only applies to hypergridding.
[11:21] Sheera Khan: not that it is a problem caused by Opensim ...
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: well changing threading of udp packets processing can go wrong arielle
[11:21] Selby.Evans I will tel how in a min
[11:22] Bill.Blight I have had no "issues" with FS64 on my grid .. Maybe for non-standard OS code i guess
[11:22] Kayaker.Magic There is an option somewhere to enable the suitcase?
[11:22] Kayaker.Magic In the viewer?
[11:22] Arielle Popstar: Ubit what was the one commit that mentioned issues with 32 bit mono?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: nopes.. ones i just did
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: mono does not run in 32bit on 64b machines
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: so that's a win option only
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: i did update the mantis on that
[11:24] JayR Cela: raise hand / comment please on 32 bit running on 64bit
[11:24] Ubit Umarov:
[11:24] Selby.Evans Kayaker -- open inventory, click gear (bottom right), show flters, show all folders
[11:26] Kayaker.Magic I heard someone
[11:26] Bill.Blight Voice was going funky
[11:27] JayR Cela: 32 bit programs will run on 64bit Ubuntu 16.04 and Debian 8 with the right Lib's installed / however it is a pain in the rear getting things together
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: yes but mono is installed in 64b without 32b run time
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks I have voice chat going funky all the time these days. It is very annoying
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: so it ignores the cpu selection on the exe/dll files and does 64b always
[11:29] Kayaker.Magic Voice chat has been failing for me on OSGrid most of the time, but works on other grids.
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks JayR, yes you can run 32-bit apps under 64. Depending on the app it will need a lot of 32-bit libs to be installed if they aren't already.
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks Kayaker, I have voice failing often for me in another grid.
[11:30] Arielle Popstar: also .9 Andrew?
[11:30] JayR Cela: I have a notecard I made up for Ubuntu 64 bit and the nessicary Lib files located with one of my Avatars / I will find and bring it to the next meeting
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks It can take multiple relogs and/or several changes of which viewer I'm using to get it working but then it can degrade over the course of an hour or two (sometimes)
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, yes
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks I'm not sure if it is partly because I'm in Linux or if it is a Vivox issue.
[11:32] JayR Cela: Vivox will not work in Linux / contrary to what Oz Linden has suggested
[11:32] Andrew.Hellershanks I check Skype first sometimes to make sure that my voice works ok with it to eliminate some issues at my end.
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks JayR, it used to work fine. It has gone down hill lately.
[11:33] JayR Cela: you may as well go pound your head on a wall somewhere
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: is Vivox dependent on mono too?
[11:33] Andrew.Hellershanks JayR, I do enough of that dealing with other computer issues. :)
[11:34] JayR Cela: @Andrew :_)
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks Arielle, I think it does. The viewer and related programs are all Windows based using .NET so they would all need mono
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks I still wonder at times which mono I should be using.
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: nod
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks I am using 3.2.8 on my machine but I have other versions available.
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks hm... that wouldn't apply to the viewer though.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: about that 32bit thing, think mantis says it all
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: i did recover an option lost in 2014
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: bc on win small to med size regions really don't need 64b
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: will use less memory and by consequence will be a bit faster
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: ( no miracles )
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: from what i remeber at the time, opensim.exe was supposed to be able to discern which version the machine is
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: and auto run the appropriate bit version
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: that was why Justin deprecated 32 bit
[11:40] Arielle Popstar: ...if memory serves me correctly
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: he was wrong
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: been a lot of changes since then so hard to say
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: on 64b machines opensim will start as 64 by default
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: well yes
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: as it was suposed to
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: what happens if a medium size region grows to a large region?
[11:45] Kayaker.Magic Ubit, you fixed an llListen issue (Mantis 8135) a bit ago, could that be turned into a patch to fix the same thing in OpenSim 0.8.2?
[11:45] Andrew.Hellershanks If you are using 32 bit versions of the exe you are ok up to 2G memory usage.
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: so if a region grows beyond that?
[11:46] Bill.Blight you switch to the 64bit
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: will there be losses?
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: You need the 64-bit version or bad things will happen
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Mostly it will crash.
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: say during a run it grows from 1.99 GB to 2.3 GB?
[11:46] Bill.Blight it will not, it will be capped
[11:47] Bill.Blight so the region may run slower
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: ok
[11:47] George Equus: I believe the limit is 3GB and some for 32bit
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, are you sure about it just capping memory usage?
[11:47] Bill.Blight It will not let it grow beyond the 32bit limit
[11:48] Bill.Blight which I am not sure what that is on winblows
[11:48] JayR Cela: 3.4x memory is max on 32 bit systems
[11:48] Bill.Blight 32bit processes on Winblows are capped to the 32bit max
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: from Google:
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: 32-bit Windows has an address space of 4GB. Part of that is used by system BIOSes and graphics memory. With a 256MB graphics card about 3.3-3.5GB of RAM can be addressed and used, assuming you have 4GB fitted
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I thought the limit was 2G but 32-bit is a 4G address space.
[11:49] Bill.Blight A 32-bit process is still limited to the same constraints in a 64-bit OS. The issue is that memory pointers are only 32-bits wide, so the program can't assign/resolve any memory address larger than 32 bits. The limit is not 2g or 3gb its 4gb for 32b
[11:49] Bill.Blight ala google
[11:49] JayR Cela: @Andrew / yes but only 3.4 gig is available for use
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Run one region per instance to help keep that problem at bay
[11:50] Bill.Blight I think that 3.4 is for a full 32bit OS , ot a 32 bit app on a 64 bit system
[11:50] JayR Cela: 32 bit is kinda a dead issue
[11:51] JayR Cela: why are we talking about it ?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are running instances under Linux you also have the Linux imposed limits on processes that may default to a lower number.
[11:51] Bill.Blight Well 32bit can keep an app from ballooning and using all the sytem ram
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: you are wrong jayr
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, we got sidetracked from Kayakers talk of a 32-bit versions of FS.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: 32bit is alive and well on windows world
[11:52] Sheera.Khan with ulimit one can impose similar limits on processes in Linux
[11:52] JayR Cela: Windows / bahhh / hogwash
[11:52] Bill.Blight You said that wrong Ubit ... it is WinBlows
[11:52] George Equus: lots of systems not 100% 64 out there still, hardware and software
[11:53] Sheera.Khan I'm not sure if the app will handle that gracefully though...
[11:53] Arielle Popstar: yes well remember that for opensim a lot of work goes into making it work on mono/linux
[11:55] JayR Cela: I don't care for Windows / and have removed it from my machines
[11:55] George Equus: Majority run Windows
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: home users
[11:55] Bill.Blight most Grids do not George
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: there are a lot of linux users in opensim though
[11:55] George Equus: speaking of users here
[11:55] JayR Cela: most grids run Linux
[11:56] Bill.Blight so Let's talk how quick grids would go away if you HAD to pay for Windows Licensing
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: only because linux is free and windows isnt
[11:56] George Equus: as for servers, quite different
[11:56] JayR Cela: servers yes
[11:56] Bill.Blight It would cost me around 100,000 up front to setup my grid on windows
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: if you had to pay the same for linux, it would quickly be dead in the water
[11:57] JayR Cela: unfortunatly most users who buy a computer at the local Big Box Store get stuck with Windows 10 Home
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, you do have to pay the Windows fee. It is just a question of how you pay.
[11:58] Bill.Blight right that is True andrew, but then I could not afford to pay for the servers themselves at this point ...
[11:58] Bill.Blight LOL
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: If you rent servers and want Windows on them the hosting company will charge you a fee so you can use Windows.
[11:58] George Equus: I paid $35 about, 10 is (was) free
[11:59] Bill.Blight yes and it is about double the price for what I pay for servers now
[11:59] JayR Cela: lets face the facts / most people feel intimidated by Linux
[11:59] Bill.Blight not to mention remote management and security then become an issue
[11:59] Bill.Blight WannaCry
[11:59] Bill.Blight LOL
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: well the only prob about linux is GC at the moment
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: its a sadomasochists wet dream imo :)
[11:59] George Equus: lol Arielle
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: 32b.. well regions use more memory and are a bit slower.. no prob
[11:59] Bill.Blight Linux is not magic, it is logical, so it seems confusing to some people ..
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: GC is the thing that does irritate me now on linux
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, it is a bit like GIMP vs. Photoshop. Linux is different from Windows. You need a little time to adjust to the differences.
[12:00] JayR Cela: @Bill / yes it is logical that is why it seems to confuse most people / LOL :_)
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: running with --desktop on sgen does seem to improve a lot
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Linux is a lot easier to use than it used to be for non-techies
[12:00] Bill.Blight Yes I use both daily, and have for years ..
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, :)
[12:01] Bill.Blight but my servers have no GUI .... And I prefer that .. GUI's spoiled people so they don't use their brains ... Click the pretty picture ..
[12:01] Bill.Blight LOL
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: It is getting about that time. Any other OpenSim topics for today?
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: logical is "click here to start server"
[12:02] Bill.Blight no that is lazy
[12:02] JayR Cela: I have one topic I would like to bring up please
[12:02] Bill.Blight because then you have no clue what that click just did
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: not mono openSim.exe -r +t makdir
[12:02] Sheera.Khan it started the service - just as my little script would do ^^
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I prefer to be lazy. I want to get something done quickly and easily so I can deal with the tough issues.
[12:02] JayR Cela: The OpenSim Power Boat Racing Association Group I am founding
[12:03] Bill.Blight Yeah umm, sounds like the Jet Ski racing group I was trying to start
[12:03] Bill.Blight I have boats and skis that will blow your mind on .9x
[12:03] JayR Cela: our headquarters will be on 3rdRock Grid and The Kaz Grid / I will have more in depth information next week
[12:04] JayR Cela: in the mean time you can take a look at my blog if you like
[12:04] JayR Cela:
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, Thank you for that information.
[12:05] JayR Cela: I would appreciate any and all feedback
[12:05] James atLLOUD: nifty
[12:06] Bill.Blight If you want to see good working watercraft on .9x ubODE check out my jetski track
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: do they have realistic flip overs and stuff?
[12:06] Bill.Blight You can flip them , but it is hard
[12:06] Bill.Blight The go right side up pretty quick
[12:07] Bill.Blight Ski Track
[12:07] JayR Cela: one of my friends has suggested a figure eight crash course race event
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: isnt that why we watch races like that? For the flips and crashes and their Ohhh ahhh factor :)
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, perhaps you can say a few words next week about the Jet Ski group you are trying to start.
[12:09] Bill.Blight Thanks Andrew, I had a public race a while back, and it was very fun, and I was working with 3rdlife grid so we alternate his Car Races, with my Jet ski races .. and we wanted to start a "Race Group" that were together but separate, his wheels my water.
[12:09] Bill.Blight So I started on my Grid the OSL Adventurers Group
[12:09] James atLLOUD: Has the HG Safari been there? That could be a fun time.
[12:09] Bill.Blight Yes they have been there
[12:10] JayR Cela: perhaps some crash dummy tester bot's ?
[12:10] Bill.Blight they had a blast there and my soccer stadium
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: yeap fun to see Bill crahing into the margins etc :)
[12:11] Bill.Blight LOL
[12:11] Bill.Blight hehe
[12:11] Arielle Popstar: hehe
[12:11] Bill.Blight they bounce off nicely
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: what would having damage on do?
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well i did climb one and got stuck :)
[12:12] Kayaker.Magic There is a large var on OSGrid called OSGrid International Sailing. I tried to set up sailing races there but did not get a lot of interest.
[12:12] JayR Cela: I have a question / if I may ask please about Physics
[12:12] James atLLOUD: nice - I've missed so many trips this year.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: yes jay physics also likes 32b
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: JayR, you are slipping in all these last minute questions. :) Go ahead.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: :p
[12:13] JayR Cela: what is going to be the preferred engine ubODE or Bullet ?
[12:13] Bill.Blight personal opinion ubODE has much faster and accurate collision response
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: depends on who you ask :)
[12:13] Bill.Blight I use nothing but ubODE
[12:13] JayR Cela: ok
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: ubOde here
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: im biased
[12:13] Sheera.Khan *giggles*
[12:13] Bill.Blight so am I
[12:14] Sheera.Khan and Robert is missing today
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: The default engine is currently BulletSim. I don't know if that will change in future. There are still some differences between the two so it depends on your use case as to which might be the best one to use.
[12:14] Bill.Blight I wrote my vehicles scripts from the ground up specifically for ubODE
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: bullet not very active atm
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: the main prob with bullet is that it needs some work
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and robert does not seem to have the time
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: and i really do not want to look into it :p
[12:14] Bill.Blight I still have to admit I think Bullet is better for ground vehicles , sorry Ubit ..
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I thought ubODE also still needed some minor work. :)
[12:15] Arielle Popstar: he mentioned actually a while ago it sort of needed a rewrite
[12:15] Bill.Blight but for Water and Air, IMHO there is no comparison
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: when i do have ubode issues to fix/improve :)
[12:15] Selby.Evans I hear good reports on obODE -- I will post some videos on the weekend
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: i actualy fixed one yesterday
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: You will get complaints from script writers if a region is changed from BS to ubODE as it affects the behaviour of scripted vehicles and other devices that use physics.
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: some weeks/months ago i did broke some physics shape type changes.. oops :)
[12:16] Bill.Blight Oh btw changing coarseupdates to async made a noticeable smoothing effect .. in my experience
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: yeap bill the where async before
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: jsut morving them around i tmp made them sync
[12:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, where was that setting?
[12:17] Arielle Popstar: yeah the physic collision thing a bit of a pain
[12:17] Bill.Blight Complaints, that IMHO are to be expected .. You don't change the engine in your car to a different type without expecting to make a few changes ..
[12:18] Bill.Blight It was an update that Ubit did making coarseupdates Async again
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, ok. I thought you were referring to a setting in an ini file or in a viewer
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: well cars than work on bullet should work on ubode
[12:18] Bill.Blight no no ..
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: ( not old ode )
[12:18] Bill.Blight They don't Ubit
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: ohh ?
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: why not ?
[12:19] Bill.Blight there has to be some thrust changes and turning changes or they don't move very well
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: hm ok
[12:19] Bill.Blight mostly that is all you have to change
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: It makes you wonder which engine is doing it "the right way".
[12:20] Bill.Blight well, given fall off, and collision accuracy , I think ubODE is more on track to be the "right" way
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Won't stop the script authors from complaining that you broke their vehicles when the physics engine gets changed on them.
[12:22] Bill.Blight One of the main things I do not like about bullet is it's collisions are not consistent,
[12:22] Bill.Blight a square might bounce like a ball in bullet, not like a ball .. so on and so forth ..
[12:22] Bill.Blight cube not square
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Too bad Robert isn't here
[12:23] Bill.Blight and at high speeds in vehicles, you can bury in the terrain or prims, with ubODE you actually bounce off ..
[12:24] Bill.Blight consistently
[12:25] Bill.Blight don't get me wrong I am not an evangelist I just want the best for what I am doing ..
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: If we can get Robert here next(?) week he could address some of the issues.

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