Chat log from the meeting on 2017-05-02

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[10:55] Ubit Umarov: i removed some cases that did show UMM.... usernames
[10:55] Ubit Umarov: bc that did made the viewer to cache and never retry
[10:55] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: would it be a good idea to use different numbers for different cases where the fetching of the names fail?
[10:55] Ubit Umarov: a uuid makes viewers retry .. well when they decide 2
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: the UMM do have that
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: but as i said.. viewer sees then as valid names and cache
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: so you get stuck with a UMM* name
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: see ?
[10:56] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: aha, I get it ...
[10:58] Arielle Popstar: need some mesh avi bits Ubit? Your complexity is only 1800
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: ohh so high? i need to get naked :)
[10:58] Arielle Popstar: lol
[10:59] Arielle Popstar: oh yes, with bento you will be able to "flip the bird"
[11:00] Ubit Umarov: last week we did speak about bento suport here
[11:03] Arielle Popstar: thx for resharing my very late announcement
[11:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Hello all I have unknown users in the chat :)
[11:03] James atLLOUD: Hi folks. thanks for the signs to get here :)
[11:03] Arielle Popstar: we are anonymous
[11:03] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: so not sure who is talking lol :)
[11:04] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: I can see everyones name above their head though <giggle>
[11:04] Arielle Popstar: would bubble chat help?
[11:05] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: thats a good idea let me rummage in preferences
[11:05] James atLLOUD: no unknowns for me today. using OSgrid account.
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: hmm selby try a rebake plz
[11:05] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: perfect
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: marcus nice videos
[11:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Thanks Ubit. :)
[11:06] Arielle Popstar: actually Ubit you can force a texture refresh by r-clicking on him and select Tex refresh
[11:07] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002 whispers: If you have unknown users, you may fix it by prefs--general, click user names, then legacy user names, trim resident from...
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: already did .. and did relog with cache clear :p
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: rebake is different..
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: i think his avi is supposed to look like that
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: The unknown user thing pops up now and then
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: tells viewer to get the base textures and bake them again
[11:08] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: thank you Selby that worked :)
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: and upload
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: well here.. not on SL SSA now
[11:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: my avi is in reseach mode and in supposed to look like this for now
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: is that what we are supposed to see?
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: now you tell me selby.Evans  :p
[11:09] Arielle Popstar: it is what i usually see
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: You look like a half invisible man, Selby
[11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes arialle, for now -- check my blog for avatar Psoriasis. I am researching a problem
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: i was calling names to xbakes :p
[11:10] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: dont want to sit on George lap or any others lol
[11:10] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: only appears on HG
[11:11] George Equus: If you want to Isis, please do  :))
[11:11] George Equus pixels are so light weight...
[11:12] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: Pretty in Pink Isis
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: yes very nice outfit
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: and not complex at all
[11:12] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: no feet? oh I knew I had lost something lol
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: i see them now
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: maybe just dragging heels
[11:13] Arielle Popstar: excuse the bad pun :)
[11:13] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: lol
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: so lots of commits this week
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: There has been a bit more activity this past week.
[11:14] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Selby could not meet you today in the webworld, lost time chatting at the Coffee and Chat was fun
[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I understand -- I got info from dieter
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of it is due to perms testing. It turns out the perms testing related to objects was way more complicated than I expected. Melanie said there are about 1800+ cases. After you cut out some of the duplicate paths from the testing of the code it is still a large number of tests to be performed.
[11:15] Arielle Popstar: oh wow
[11:15] Leighton.Marjoram @grid.lighthousepoint.co.uk:8002: yikes
[11:15] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: oh wow
[11:15] James atLLOUD: gulp!
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: she is not counting well there are more cases :p
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: At that point I said I wasn't going to get too involved in that level of testing. I don't have time for that.
[11:16] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: who could have known it is so complicated - I think I heard that before ^^
[11:16] Arielle Popstar: so will Diva's automated thing go through a lot?
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well we can break permissions testing in mb 3 major groups
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: What is happening now is some testing is being done and work is being done to automate the testing.
[11:17] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Trump said that lol
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: first is permissions. operations and changes when things are transfered to other avies
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ie changing perm.. giving or selling.. more changes by new owner.. etc
[11:18] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: when I have bought from the Kitely Marketplace or digiworldz permissions have not changed
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: another big case is inworld and viewer operations control
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ie can't we take copy? copy?
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: modify...
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Isis, it depends on a number of factors. One of which is the grid to which the items were delivered and what version of code is running on that grid.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: do viewers show or hide menus according to rights...
[11:19] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I see. I got it delivered to my standalone
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Isis, perms on an object also depend on the permissions of the objects inside it.
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: ie inworld permssions enforce
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: last case is old things not working anymore
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: a case is the freebies with just anyone copy on main object
[11:20] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: right, lately when picking up free to copy, full perms, but script inside is no modify, then the whole object turned to no modify
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: under new perms that does not work anymore
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: that should not happen isis.Ophelia
[11:21] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: but it happens :)
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Isis, that is one of the issues
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: object contents No MOD should not propagate outwards to main prim
[11:22] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I know Ubit
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: it did on master?
[11:22] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: it happened picked items from the osgrid and also metro
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: AHH master state.. i did flag it in TESTING
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: things do seem safer now.. just don't use on comercial grids and where you don't have easy access to god mode to fix things
[11:23] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: yes
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Ive seen objects with no mod contents winding up as no mod even in SL.
[11:24] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: Andrew also if item inside (script) forgotten to make full perms, the FP objects turns to no copy
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, scripts being no mod is the main cause of the problem
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: odd damm i was going to test.. but this is not on core versions :)
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: Paela own fork
[11:26] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: can we user somehow help testing or so?
[11:26] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have seen restrictions like nomod propagate upward from contents -- I regularly test for that when I want to be sure an object is free to copy
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: in some ways, No Modify should not mean Can't see it
[11:27] Arielle Popstar: seen notecards like that
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: try wear that and see perms isis.Ophelia
[11:27] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: ok
[11:28] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: If people want to help in testing, IMA wants to form a Work Group to manage that effort by the community
[11:28] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Contact me
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: but well, i don't know this region version
[11:28] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: it is fine. Script no mod, object is full perms
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: and we did find several bugs on current osgrid bin
[11:29] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: the question would be, what would have happened if I had taken it to my grid
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: This region says it is running Rev Paela OpenSim 4.0.1 Dev (Unix/Mono)
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: No idea how to relate that to anything in the upstream repo
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: as Andrew said Diva is working on a set of automatic testing of basic permissions things
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: so in future jenkins will keep a watch on changes
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: With the number of object related tests automation is the only real way to handle object perm testing.
[11:30] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: sorry didnt mean to interrupt, just informing about my expriences
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Isis
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: are there any known permission issues created by the viewer side?
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except all viewer have their own twist of the export permissison as far as I can see
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: The problem with perms viewer side is when someone is using a copybot viewer.
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: export is broken
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: i did ignore it mostly
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am talking about well-behaved viewers :-))
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: I've not seen a case where I could change the state of the export bit in a viewer
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: singu does one thing.. fs does other.. no idea about kokua
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we can set the export bit in the database but that's just about it
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: we need to review and redefine that possibly
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: whats confusing is the different area that allow changes to the permissions of an object
[11:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does not do anything sensible in terms of preventing non-exportable
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: edit box, properties, viewer pref's etc
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: original spec as confusing and with avination only in mind
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Proper support for the export bit will lead to a whole other set of perm cases to be tested
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because it is not documented at all and I don't think the community even agrees on how it should behave?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: you can only export freebies for example
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: yeap we need to review that
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: Mel said at one time only full perm items could be exported
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: i did touch the export flags.. but just because they where there :p
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If an object is full perms but the contents are not one needs to decide if the object can be exported or not.
[11:36] Arielle Popstar: Kitely implementation is different though
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If so, can it only export the full perm contents
[11:36] Marcus Llewellyn: Agreed. An export option that doesn't preserve provenance and perms is only useful for a subset of works.
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: kitely export is a different thing.. web site controlled i think
[11:36] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I am not sure, but I think Kitely has a working viewer exportable
[11:37] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it should be possible to export anything, provided that the receiving grid police the original permission settings
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, Kitely export != viewer export perm
[11:37] Kayaker Magic: No, Kitely ignores the viewer export bit
[11:37] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I read one said one has to click that in the viewer or the item wont leave Kitely
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: well i said i did not touch (much) on export bits
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: .. as i said..
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: and not relevant for in grid operations
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: only HG and oars if i remember
[11:38] Arielle Popstar: no, but it will start coming up with work on permissions
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: this changes as usually in opensim did started with a little change...
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: and oops escalated ;)
[11:39] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the export flag in my opinion should only have the purpose of setting if the creator want the stuff to leave a grid or not. If it leaves the grid all other permissions must be preserved thereafter
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Kitely has a separate bit to control whether an item can be exported or not but that is not the same as the object export bit
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, once an item leaves a grid you don't have a lot of control over what may happen to the item.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: and almost everything about permissions did change.. either a bit or a big bit ;)
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Not as it is now, but you can have, if the system supports it.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: we are of course going to need your help
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: specially on "corner cases"
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: in testing...
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: master is already at a point where testing is possible
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: we finally removed bugs we did know about since Jan
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: As a merchant, what I want is two things: A way to prevent an object leaving a grid, and if I allow an object to leave a grid, what the perms will be when they get to another grid.
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: but was not possible to fix till now
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: that was the point of the export flag, or part of it
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what bugs were that Ubit?
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: * no coments *
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: hihihih
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: ( kayaker i did push code about that llListen issue )
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: Yes, I know thing can be changed once it gets out there, but I want to state my intentions in the perm bits.
[11:45] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: you only can keep that kind of control if the exporting grid passes permission settings upon being imported into another HG enabled grid
[11:46] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: so a connection with the exporting grid would then be mandatory
[11:46] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: which is an issue by itself
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: grids like osg and standalones force hg export to allow freebies only
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: but lets see
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: well, you could have to verify the permissions with the originating grid on arrival
[11:47] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: nods, exactly
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for HG that should more or less happen in realtime
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for oar / iar there may be a delay
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: regions i mentioned have open acccess to god mode
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or never
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Objects would need a way to record the originating grid.
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: think they do indirectly
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Asset table has a creator_id filed which contains information such as http://jogrid.net:8002;BlancoNoel Resident
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: today i also changed the configuration of llRequestURL
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: it can now be disabled
[11:50] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: to tackle this and many other issues, you could make "the HG" an independent orgainisation, in some degree with a fee to connect to the hypergrid, which in its turn would fund not only its own functionality and service but also development
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: You don't need to request a URL for outgoing so that limitation is only for incoming URLs?
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: uhm
[11:50] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: an opensimulator hypergrid foundation
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: yes.. incoming
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: Roland that is the oposite of original goal of HG
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: yes
[11:51] Arielle Popstar: very much so
[11:51] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: its not for profit, just to cover connectivity
[11:51] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: you pay for your internet connection too, don't you?
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: diva talked about "federation of regions"
[11:51] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: it's life assurance, not insurance
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: if it went to that then i would say those grids that are distrustful of open to connect to grids and standalone's should band together and stick to themselves
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: Divas favorit setup is standalone with HG
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: those with 100% trust also
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: ( silence.. )
[11:54] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: again, it's merely a service cost, nothing more nothing less and it should be a zero profit thingy, BUT covering the real cost of operation
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: btw as i said on current osg binary you may notice some freebies don't work..
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: of hypergrid?
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: what cost on self hosted region and minigrids>??
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: either you fix the setting anyone copy on ALL parts contents
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well that is needed on new permissions
[11:55] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: *me rests his case*
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: FS5 bulk set of permissions does that nice
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, why would some freebies not work?
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: for old regions i did add a very ugly hack
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Content permission indelibility always comes down to trust. And besides grid/standalone admins, there's also users with access to content. Frankly, this is one of those discussions that ultimately leads down the DRM path, which just isn't practical.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: Andrew you KNOW.. remember :p
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: @Roland are you suggesting a methodology of getting standalones to contribute to dev process?
[11:56] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA will have a Working group for HG -- Roland's idea should be handled there.
[11:56] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: opensource is opensource, meaning that standalones can voluntary donate
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: but i say again.. on new permissions ALL items in ALL parts contents also need to have anyone copy set
[11:57] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I would, I run a standalone. But I see revolution if we had a "paid" HG :)
[11:57] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Donations might make charges unnecessary
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Ubit
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: old opensim only cared about the main object setting
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: see the issue?
[11:57] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: wanting to use the HG connectivity points to a need and a ture motivating factor to wanting to contribute to a service that goes beyond pure opensource, it is a service and everyone would agree that a small fee would cover both the need and the cost
[11:58] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: (sorry for the typonese)
[11:58] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: imho standalones should be entirely free at all times
[11:58] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: how did we come from permissions to HG donations?
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: not sure how it goes beyond opensource and as a service would need to go through some sort of central database
[11:59] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: the mitigation of permissions should however be controlled, HG can provide that control
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: isis andrew is not moderating the talk so.. ;)
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: You're imagining this without also considering supporting infrastructure that would be necessary. That's not a trivial endeavor.
[11:59] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: its not about donations, its about code and a procedure that keeps it reliably secure
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: permissions can still be changed in databases
[11:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: A grid needs internet connection anyways, so I don't see an additional burden using the HG to access a grid - on the contrary: it widens your scope and thus is a benefit to your and every other grid
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Its not the first time we have more than one topic being discussed at the same time. :)
[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: It also doesn't take into account the technical nature of HG, which in itself is a hack (although a hack of epic proportion).
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: the problem is that the drm of S/L is 10 years out of date
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: it never worked properly and patching it over and over is still not going to resolve it
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: there are viewers out there that dont care
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: as well as other methods
[12:01] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DRM never works at the macro level anyway
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: related to permissions is god level access.. ( the change i was doing when stepped into permissions last Dec
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: a new way of controlling content will need to be brought in sooner or later
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: as you know you now have the option to not have some rights until you ask on viewer
[12:02] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: on my agenda permissions is the last thing to worry about anyways, but you guys bring it up - when you do, do it right or leave it
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: btw I did remove things like parcel owner god rights
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: i did rebalance parcel owner rights
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: and estate managers ( those can be gods of course)
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Any way you look at it, object perms is a complicated topic.
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: permissions are fine and likely honored by a significant portion of the community but there seems to be this idea that once something goes outside on the HG it will be ripped
[12:05] Marcus Llewellyn awards Andrew with The Understatement of the Year Award. :D
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:05] Ubit Umarov didn't look to HG .. that is a totally diferent set of books
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: :)
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, it isn't so much that it *will* but that you no longer have any control over what might happen to an item.
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: most ripped content comes right from S/L
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: You hope it only winds up in other places where people respect the permissions on items.
[12:06] Arielle Popstar: the closed garden of closed gardens
[12:07] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: agree Arielle but some go around with copybotter viewers in the existing stores
[12:07] Marcus Llewellyn: We essentially operate under the honor system when it comes to perms.
[12:07] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: kinda of hobby shopping
[12:07] Arielle Popstar: agreed Marcus
[12:08] Arielle Popstar: yes Isis but that should not have anything to do with HG functionality
[12:09] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: it doesnt
[12:09] Arielle Popstar: whether one HG's to a grid to rip content or creates a new account on the grid to do so is not much difference
[12:09] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: agreed
[12:09] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: If HG would faithfully propogate the original permissions + next owner permissions we'd be more than half way there
[12:09] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: The only solution would be letting the servers render your window content - that way no viewer would get access to the raw data files. And even then some data could be stolen
[12:10] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: but then the servers would be rather complex and expensive beasts...
[12:10] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: cheers Gavin
[12:10] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: yes indeed
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: i think it mostly does Gavin and if anything makes perms more restrictive in my experience
[12:10] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: DRM would be a bridge too far imho
[12:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In my experience it works most of the time, but not always
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: Gavin... no.. we are a opensource project ppl can modify regions code
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: and or viewers
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course they can
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: regions side, one a closed grid can provide some contents protection
[12:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: some will steal you blind no matter
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: not a open grid like this
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:12] Arielle Popstar: the only way i see it and which the fathers of opensim said a long time back is that scripting with call home features is really the only way of securing to a degree
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: so on permissions we need to focus on closed grids and how exports from those work
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: only then open grids and standalones where " leaks " will be a lot more
[12:13] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: Ubit, yes, right focus
[12:13] Arielle Popstar: ok i guess what Sheera said
[12:13] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: (afk)
[12:14] Arielle Popstar: the code would be the same for closed or open grids
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: security is never 100%
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'd rather look at how stuff is imported into closed grids, and I don't mean serious playsers like Inworldz
[12:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: small closed grids tend to produce very little original content
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: the required level depends on the value ot the secured thing and its validation time
[12:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but they are candidates for massive import of copybotted items
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: ( well a military message is a example
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: " we will attack tomorrow at 8:00"
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: With the ongoing work to get object related perms working as they should that will be one thing out of the way when it comes time to think about exporting/importing items
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Andrew
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: this is useless after that hour .. needs no security then :)
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: true Andrew
[12:16] Arielle Popstar: unless someone is late getting out of bed
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: silence again ?
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: I take that as an indication that we put a fork in this. ;)
[12:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I always miss the good stuff
[12:18] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: LOL
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: a fork ?
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably about time to do something like that, Marcus. We are now past the hour mark.
[12:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: someone gonna fork opensim?
[12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: Put a fork in it as it is done,
[12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: not fork it as in fork the software ... LOL
[12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: An expression from cooking. When the food is done, you put a fork in it to eat. "Put a fork in this, it's done."
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: You haven't heard the expression about putting a fork in something.
[12:19] Ubit Umarov: ??
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: ?
[12:19] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I am waiting for the sandwiches
[12:19] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: ohh there is food ... Ok glad I made it ..
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: you mean fork as in food tools?
[12:20] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: mostly donuts though ...
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: No sandwiches though
[12:20] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: cant use my fork without sandwiches
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: ahh ok :)
[12:20] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: so basically just a bunch of forking around
[12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: OpenSim needs another fork like a fish needs knees. Heh.
[12:21] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: sooo very true
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: There are a couple of different meanings. One is put a fork in it to see if it is done. The other is about marking a place (ie. bookmarking something so you can come back to it later)
[12:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think the last one is most used
[12:22] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: learned something new again
[12:22] Arielle Popstar: dont need more talent bled from the pool
[12:22] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: welcome to the colloquialisms of Opensim Group dynamics 101
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: the portuguese word for fork does not have many use variations actually
[12:22] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hahaha
[12:22] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: neither in Spanish Ubit
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: hmm used in food... hmm and trees
[12:22] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Portuguese know what to do with a fork^^
[12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: English speakers love to not make sense. ;)
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: we do have more words for the other cases
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: In addition to object perm testing there is still some other testing that should be done. Going through the list of SL perms on their wiki would be a good idea.
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: or use other words
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: Andrew is more than object permissions
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I know
[12:23] Ubit Umarov: right to enter a place also changed :p
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: the object stuff is just the most complicated of all the testing that needs to be done.
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: ( or not in that case. don't remember..)
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Deeded land and objects is another area for testing
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: group share and group owned things changed
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: DO NOT DEED
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: thats half way ot losing things
[12:25] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002 offers to structurally test & report grid permissions of any kind if so desired
[12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Deeding is broken at the moment?
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: by design marcus
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: i lost tons of prims at sl using it
[12:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Many people may depend on that feature for group collaboration.
[12:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Deeding works in SL as far as I have exprienced
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: We need someone who can oversee some of the testing and coordinate the people who are willing to do the tests.
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: well it is there
[12:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: security orbs is the ultimate test
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: i just did had ugly experience with it
[12:27] Ubit Umarov: so plz test
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: security orbs are often a pita to have in a grid.
[12:28] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002 raises finger to Andrew - happy to - I prefer delegating ;)
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: old code did some confusing about group owned and shared.. in fact also SL docs
[12:28] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Andrew: the coordination is something the IMA tries to offer...
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: so you have my interpretation on some cases ;)
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Roland, thanks but I have way too much on my plate as it is.
[12:28] Bill.Blight @grid.opensim.life:8002: I use an orb that uses osGetAgentList, so no sensors involved, works great region wide ..
[12:28] Ubit Umarov: that is not as it was
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: ie
[12:29] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: IMA is a wild bear hunting for salmon
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: Maybe IMA would be the group to sort out that
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: group share is object owner rights share with a few limitations
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: DEED is activates group members rights
[12:29] Arielle Popstar: they just need someone to do delegating maybe Roland? :)
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, Selby mentioned he was a contact for the IMA so if you are interested in testing talk with him.
[12:29] Ubit Umarov: deed and shared is BOTH
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Group related permissions is another area for testing
[12:30] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: we'll have a big job on object testing first
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Are permissions assigned to different roles enforced properly or not? Is that the case for both xmlrpc based groups as well as core groups.
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: ?
[12:31] Ubit Umarov: those things are mainly on a nice thing called permissions module
[12:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: get objects tested and working first, then onto group permissions
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, good
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yes. That is (or certainly should be) the priority
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a littel odditiy in permissions module in opensim.ini
[12:32] Ubit Umarov: ?
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one sec
[12:32] Arielle Popstar: serverside ?
[12:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:33] Arielle Popstar: nod
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have permissionmodules = DefaultPermissionsModule,PrimLimitsModule
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it works
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if you have permissionmodules = DefaultPermissionsModule, PrimLimitsModule
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does not work
[12:33] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: note the space...
[12:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: intuitively people will put the space
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I fixed that ages ago.
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: a parsing issue it seems
[12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is still there
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone must have broken it then.
[12:34] Arielle Popstar: or there again
[12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: on the merge?
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I did find it and fix it some time ago.
[12:34] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: IDK, it was broken in 2014
[12:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so after that I used without the space till I accidentially added it some days ago
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: well then you can fix it again andrew  :)
[12:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and guess what - broken
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I just have to find where I fixed it last time.
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: scene.permissions.cs?
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: hmm or not
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't remember. I just searched the code to find the one containing that setting
[12:38] Ubit Umarov: opensimbase actually
[12:39] Marcus Llewellyn: Yup.
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: m_permsModules = new List<string>(permissionModules.Split(','));
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it is in OpenSim/Region/CoreModules/World/Permissions/PermissionsModule.cs
[12:39] Marcus Llewellyn: The fix could be in either place. It just needs to trim spaces after that split.
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... there should be a .Trim() after that split
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: havig the space fails right?
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Right
[12:40] Marcus Llewellyn: OpenSimBase feels more logical to me, but that's just me :)
[12:40] Ubit Umarov: we need trim somewhere
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, you may be right about Base. In the other files checking that setting the line has -> new List<string>(permissionModules.Split(',').Select(m => m.Trim()));
[12:41] Andrew Hellershanks: In base it doesn't have the part starting with .Select
[12:43] Ubit Umarov: ok pushing the fix
[12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: It is about time to wrap this up. Almost two hours today.
[12:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Have a good week everyone.
[12:44] Ubit Umarov: well c&p of the line above :)
[12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, Is there a mantis for the perms setting issue?
[12:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, ok. Gavin can test it. :)
[12:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: That's a great dev-meeting: you don't often get to see an issue mentioned and fixed en passant during such an event :-)
[12:45] Roland.Francis @grid.vibel.eu:8002: I offered something, if I can help, pls just IM me
[12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7776
[12:46] Marcus Llewellyn: That's the closest mantis I can find.
[12:46] Arielle Popstar: ty Roland
[12:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Next meeting we should get a list of names of people willing to help test and get the list in the hands of someone who can coordinate the work of those people.
[12:46] Arielle Popstar: good idea Andrew
[12:47] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: I am always willig to test, as an user. I am a technical zero, but with the wish to put my bits if they help
[12:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute issues before we go out separate ways for this week?
[12:48] Ubit Umarov: testing is about see if things work, not how they do work :)
[12:48] Andrew Hellershanks: As long as one knows how they are supposed to work. :)
[12:49] Isis.Ophelia @login.digiworldz.com:8002: kk Ubit
[12:50] Arielle Popstar: need some sort of channel that potential testers can gather in with the devs
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: testing is about see if things work, not why they do work :)
[12:50] Ubit Umarov: better ?
[12:52] Arielle Popstar: need an Irc Opensim-tester channel maybe?
[12:52] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, that would be a good idea.

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