Chat log from the meeting on 2017-03-21

[11:04] Sheera Khan: Do you have any news regarding the development? Last commit was on 2nd of Feb ...
[11:05] Sheera Khan: and considering the tragic fate of Avination I can understand Melanie to be a bit less motivated ....
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: AFAIK, development in the master branch are on hold pending testing of the changes to the perms related code.
[11:06] Sheera Khan: but the project isn't abandoned yet, right?
[11:06] Sheera Khan: *giggles*
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yes, I read about that this past week.
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Its not dead. It is just pining for the fjords. ;)
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: sorry, couldn't resist.
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Um... no, it isn't dead.
[11:07] Marcus Llewellyn: Which project is that?
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: People are concerned about the state of the OpenSimulator project as there has been no changes made to the master branch since Feb 2.
[11:09] Marcus Llewellyn: I know the permission changes need testing desperately. If someone who's familiar with the changes could outline tests users or grid owners could try, that would probably help a whole lot.
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Melanie has some work she wanted to do, or that just needs pushing to master but the changes to perms related code needs to be tested first.
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I just haven't had time to do it. I have a couple other projects I need to finish first.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: In the last week I've been also dealing with family issues. My dad has been needing more help.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Today has been particularly bad.
[11:10] Marcus Llewellyn: Didn't say it had to be you. :) But core as a group needs to realize that "we need testing" isn't enough when people don't understand what to test.
[11:11] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev 056ccae: 2017-01-27 21:43:25 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I have to look at the logs and the code changes that touched on perms to get an idea of some of the tests that are needed.
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Melanie mentioned testing perms in OS and comparing results against SL.
[11:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Melanie is the one who'd know, for sure.
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Some things I can test can be compared against SL but when it comes to perms where land ownership would be required, I can't do that as I don't have land in SL.
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The easiest perms stuff to test involves objects and inventory.
[11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Perhaps, a starting point might be the testing scripts LL has on it's wiki.
[11:14] Marcus Llewellyn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Test_Scripts
[11:15] Marcus Llewellyn: There are procedure there for testing next owner perms, group perms, item perms, scripted perms, etc.
[11:15] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Andrew -- I can give you rez rights in SL on my place
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The tests are easy to do but could be time consuming. I think the type of tests to be performed really does need to be written down to split up the testing load.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Selby, it isn't just a case of rez rights for the land tests.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Some tests need to be done re: group owned land.
[11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: The beta grid should serve fine. But some tests require multiple participants, for example.
[11:17] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org nods
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I do have an alt in SL
[11:19] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I may have group-owned land that I can give you rights to
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I could come up with a list of things to test regarding object testing. Some of that is just making sure perms on objects stick once set when rezzed, sold, or otherwise passed to others.
[11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Category:Test_Scripts has a lot of those tests already outlined.
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok. I didn't know that existed. If the information located there is still valid it will help.
[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: I'm pretty sure that's where the lab has it's testers go for instruction.
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: One test that is needed is to test how folded perms are working. That is about checking how the perms on an object are affected by the permissions of the items in the objects inventory.
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Marcus, ah, ok.
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I hope the shutdown of Avination won't affect future development too much once we get over the perms testing hurdle.
[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: Well, the profit motive may be suspended for some, but hopefully they'll find other channels for that, or someone else will come to the fore.
[11:31] Marcus Llewellyn: Additionally, if the IMA (Infinite Metaverse Alliance) actually gains some legs, that could be an opportunity to build new bridges to past devs.
[11:32] James atLLOUD: hi folks, I'm tracking but also busy at my desk. Agree very much @Marcus
[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Infinite Metaverse Alliance: http://infinitemetaverse.com/en/
[11:33] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Agree, Marcus..
[11:33] James atLLOUD: looking at Marcus' SL link - this items looks useful. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Scripted_Permissions_Test
[11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah, there's at least four or five in there that addresses permissions scenarios.
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: If IMA's goal is to help push development forward having them do at least some of the testing would be a big help.
[11:36] Marcus Llewellyn: They intend to run a small vanilla opensim grid for testing, is my understanding. It can't hurt to ask them about that.
[11:38] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: IMA are still working on the the new server, but hope to have it ready in a few weeks.
[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: Steve LaVigne is prolly the best guy to ask about that, I think.
[11:39] James atLLOUD: Yes, agree about Steve. They are building a structure of working groups. Would permissions fall under a general 'security' category?
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it would.
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: I still don't know how much traction the IMa will actually get, but the people who've started it aren't exactly naive idealists. They've been around a while.
[11:40] James atLLOUD: There is a proposed working group title 'grid security'. I'll keep an eye on that to see if there's any communication.
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty
[11:41] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I think P emissions would fall under security.
[11:44] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: They are looking for people to be in working groups
[11:45] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: They are especially looking for people to manage working groups
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: That will the next challenge for them.
[11:46] James atLLOUD: So true.
[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah. A lot of people knowledgeable enough to handle that sort of thing usually have day jobs... finding people withe the time and/or commitment is they trick.
[11:48] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: yes -- finding people to work on those things is the big job.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: If anyone decides to use that SL list of tests they should document which tests they performed against the git master version of OpenSim, whether the tests were successful as documented or if there were any differences in expected behaviour or results.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I will see what I can do about getting someone, not necessarily me to put a list together of tests to be run. I may not make the list myself.
[11:57] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I would certainly help if I knew what tests need to be done and where I could submit test results
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: One option would be to submit them to the OpenSim developer mailing list but it isn't a good idea if some perms tests fail and might allow someone to do something they shouldn't be allowed to do.
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: You could file a mantis with information about your search and make sure to mark it private.
[11:59] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: without documentation of tests already carried out there will be lots of duplicate work and presumably lots of gaps too ...
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Another option is to just keep notes and pass the information along in an NC. I'll pass the info on to the other core members. This would be the simplest solution.
[12:00] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I think we would need a place where we can sign off which tests are already done ...
[12:01] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: otherwise there will be lots of repetitions
[12:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Maybe a test reporting site is a service IMA could provide
[12:02] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and since there aren't really heaps of people willing to take on the tasks, the amount of repetitions should be kept small enough so the gaps can be covered too
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: A wiki or test reporting site are options. The other option is handing out tests to individuals but people may have ones they may prefer to do rather than being told which ones to do.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Anything else to talk about today? I see we are missing a few of the regulars here due to the recent time change in North America.
[12:04] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I will ask IMA about a test management place on their website
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, ok ty.
[12:05] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: it would really help if the tests could be divided into small chunks. somebody could accept one as a task and deliver results within a specified amount of time. if the result comes late someone else could claim the chunk for him-/herself ..
[12:10] James atLLOUD: Thanks for the discussion today folks - I need to dash back to work.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: You have your hair and skirt now, Arielle. That's progress.
[12:10] Arielle Popstar: so dev meetings restarting tuesdays at 2 est?
[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: DST is in effect in the US now.
[12:11] James atLLOUD: ty Andrew - you are our anchor for these discussions.
[12:11] George Equus: Late I suppose... wrapping up?
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: yw, James.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, we are wrapping it up.
[12:11] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev 056ccae: 2017-01-27 21:43:25 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I've always gone on the basis that meetings are held at at 11am osgrid time.
[12:11] George Equus: sigh... just remembered... an hour too late
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: np, George. These time changes always mess things up for a couple of weeks. I think we get back on track as of next meeting.
[12:12] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Andrew
[12:12] George Equus: Made a massive Windows Update on server
[12:13] George Equus: Next week all will be on same page again I hope, yes  :)
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Selby, Let me know what you find out from the IMA. I'll see what information I can get together about testing. I just hope I have time.
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: These days with the family issues I don't often get much chance to do anything in the mornings.
[12:14] George Equus: Will keep eye out for todays chat posting
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: If you have information for me, send me an IM. I hope this grid grid forwards offline IMs to emails.