Chat log from the meeting on 2017-01-10

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[10:48] Sheera Khan: I see, there's a RC2 out? Cool :-)
[10:49] Ubit Umarov: yes.. finaly
[10:49] Sheera Khan: I already thought the increased merging would be a sign for that ^^
[10:49] Ubit Umarov: what increased merging?
[10:50] Sheera Khan: the message: Merge branch 'master' of opensimulator.org:/var/git/opensim in Git
[10:50] Sheera Khan: happened rather often last week
[10:51] Ubit Umarov: that was bc 0.9 from rc1 was badly outdated already
[10:51] Sheera Khan: so I hoped it would be a sign of getting the last fixes in ^^
[10:52] Ubit Umarov: yeap it was
[10:52] Sheera Khan: :-)
[10:52] Ubit Umarov: it is as 0.91 or almost now
[10:52] Sheera Khan: :-)
[10:53] Sheera Khan: time to stir up our users a bit ^^
[10:53] Ubit Umarov: now lets see how many months before a proper release or still a rc3
[10:54] Sheera Khan: our 0.8.3 ran rather stable :-)
[10:54] Sheera Khan: finally we can shake the grid up again a bit ^^
[10:54] Sheera Khan: let's see what lint flakes are showing up^^
[10:55] Sheera Khan: last time we had some seriously outdated 0.7.Xers complaining about malfunctions ^^
[10:55] Sheera Khan: *giggles*
[10:56] Sheera Khan: those are the perks of running an open grid where anybody can connect about everything^^
[10:56] Ubit Umarov: we never released 0.8.3 :)
[10:57] Ubit Umarov: that was the "bed" for the avn merge
[10:57] Sheera Khan: I know... but there was a week or two where there existed an 0.8.3...
[10:58] Sheera Khan: and our "MetroEdition" was pulled from that one
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: think some of it did got avn code
[10:58] Ubit Umarov: but not sure
[10:59] Ubit Umarov: it was going to be the one with avn merge
[10:59] Sheera Khan: but we have a good mixture of ancient to really brand new simulators in the grid
[10:59] Ubit Umarov: but then ppl noticed tat the merge was a major change so.. moved to 0.9 number
[11:00] Sheera Khan: O.o, no luck with the seat today?
[11:02] George Equus: Wow.. random selection, didn't make this choice myself.
[11:02] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: strange -- I have no problem sitting -- though I could not sit this way in RL
[11:03] Sheera Khan: this problem is sporadic...
[11:03] Sheera Khan: I have it less often then George, but I certainly have it too at times
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: we should change this meetings location
[11:04] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ah, my PDA wound up off by a day so that is why it didn't beep to remind me of the meeting.
[11:04] Ubit Umarov: don't see why we keep having them on a region with 31761 prims
[11:05] Sheera Khan: as a load test Ubit ;-)
[11:05] George Equus: meeting place is OK I think, seats are a different matter...
[11:05] Ubit Umarov: we either do load test or talk
[11:06] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I see 11 fps, low for me.
[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: We have done load tests and talk. We talk here and we used to go over to the OSCC regions after the meeting for the load tests.
[11:06] George Equus: 40 here
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: and we bother ppl looking for freebies :p
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: sorry.. either load testing or proper talk conditions
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: my viewer is down to 8fps
[11:07] Sheera Khan: the framerate depends on the direction I'm looking
[11:08] Sheera Khan: between 20 and 10 for me ...
[11:08] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: 32 fps
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: yes it is direction depedent
[11:08] Sheera Khan: this is a notebook with Intel onboard graphics ^^
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Wow. I'm seeing around 42 on average. I haven't seen it that high in a while.
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: im facing the larger cluster of prims
[11:09] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev 90dee2f: 2017-01-08 12:30:50 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Not since I had an GeForce 8600 card.
[11:09] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: 5  !pages! of items in the git shortlog!
[11:09] Sheera Khan: yayyyyyyy :-)
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: fine at 32 with 32m view range
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Where is that you are looking James?
[11:09] George Equus: zooming out all the way I get 12 fps..
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: but this place is WRONG for meetings
[11:09] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim&h=HEAD&pg=5
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I zoom way out and I get 60fps
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: they used to be at bade
[11:10] George Equus: Andrews trousers in focus give 56 fps.. :)
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: James, be glad its only 5 pages.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Ubit, where do you suggest we meet?
[11:11] Sheera Khan: and there is a rc2 out now :-)
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: well no prob.. i may just stop coming here .. no big deal
[11:11] Sheera Khan: we're getting nearer^^
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, hey. I was going to get to that. :)
[11:11] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: :) I'm glad for even one item
[11:11] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I got no problem with here.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: James, if you click "more" you will find there are more than 5 pages
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: yes.. rc1 was months outdated
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: so now take 2
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The last three or so days have been interesting.
[11:12] Sheera Khan: I'm fine with any place for a meeting - as long as the meeting brings up important topics :-)
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: As Sheera mentioned the second release candidate in the 0.9 series of code has been released.
[11:13] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: in the shortlog I go back to the date of our last meeting - 03jan
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: fine sheera.Khan you can come here.. i just may stop coming :p
[11:13] Sheera Khan: so sorry to spoil your announcement Andrew ...
[11:13] Sheera Khan: *sob*
[11:13] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: This includes a number of changes that fix a number of permissions issues in the code
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The permissions changes were applied to the code a day or so before the rc2 release.
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, np. :)
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The rc2 release also has some changes related to god mode, and how/when god mode is, or can be, accessed and used.
[11:18] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I haven't quite gotten my head around those changes enough to go in to any detail here about the changes. Check the change log history of the code or the wiki for the details (if someone has put the information up on the OS wiki).
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There are two ini settings that were added relating to god mode. They are automatic_gods and implicit_gods. The comments in the ini files explain their use.
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That's it for the major announcements this week.
[11:22] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Pretty major!
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: oh. The other thing to mention, in case you haven't noticed, osgrid has been updated to the rc2 code.
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well about the Gods work ( i do really considerer removing the word God from code .. but that is another issue )
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: 3 options where added...
[11:24] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: can anyone make a grid shout its version?
[11:24] Sheera Khan: the word Admin would describe the role sufficiently, wouldn't it?
[11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Sure. It's just a script function.
[11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Your shouter downstairs will prolly let you take a copy.
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: ( yes or should have been admin all the time )
[11:24] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ok. ty ML
[11:25] Marcus Llewellyn: finger out of alignment. :P
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: osGetSimulatorVersion
[11:25] Sheera Khan: you can wear a HUD or an attachment which tells you which Software version and physics engine is used
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Now that I've finished dealing with some grid updates in the last few days I'll be getting back to a couple of my other ToDo list items.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: well do you want a clarification on the new "god" options or not?
[11:26] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: 'k, was wondering if there was an escape code in chat (*^*)
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Go ahead, Ubit.
[11:26] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: What can you tell us Ubit?
[11:27] Sheera Khan: sure Ubit :-)
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: One of my ToDo list items is to update the OSSL information in the wiki to show the default permissions on the os functions.
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ok option "force_grid_gods_only" is just to make someone happy.. it only disables region_owners gods and estate managers
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: James, you can use the Help -> About menu entry in the viewer to check a grids version of code.
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: so it is actually redundant
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: "implicit_gods" is the good one.. it should be named LegacySomething
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: and its the one that controls the new code changes versus 0.8 code
[11:29] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ty
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: idea is to make god powers be by request on viewer
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: and not always on as most are now
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: only powers needed to enter regions in trouble will stay always on
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: but this were initial steps only.. as i type, gods are almost as before
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: as adding the needed control code only
[11:32] Ubit Umarov: the hard part is still to come
[11:32] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ?
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: changing the fixed god powers to selectable ones case by case
[11:33] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ah
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: the option automatic_gods will turn them all on at login
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: you can then turn them off on viewer
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: the code got a bit twisted only because of keeping 0.8 style
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: possible a waste of time.. bc that style was basically a big bug but whatever
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: The gods changes, will they be implemented after the upcoming release?
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: at least current state
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn nods.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: we did improve viewer notification of god level a bit also
[11:38] Marcus Llewellyn: That is what I was hoping to hear. It's good to have that visual reminder.
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: and o.8 does have a few powers only active if viewer asks for them
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: viewer protocol did implied we could not update it region side
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: but we actually can
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm looking forward to having implicit_gods = false and not have to worry about accidentally taking a chair when I meant to sit on it.
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: yeap that is the goal
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: +1 Andrew
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: but those permission is all broken
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: see... someone in past considered that a parcel owner has total rights to edit prims on its parcel
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: that including other ppl attachments
[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: It's a legacy thing, reallly, I'm sure. Back in the day most regions were glorified sandboxes.
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: same for estate managers and region owners
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: that is totally worng
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: those are "god" powers only
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: so those permissions do need a lot of work
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well also some code architecture decisions on it are pretty bad
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: for example the use of .net "events" on it
[11:44] Marcus Llewellyn: Like many things, it was prolly "good enough" for the time, and has just been waiting for someone to come back to it and make it what it should be.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: yeap but that will delay proper gods control
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: bc how to prevent gods from breaking ppl attachments my mistake when a parcel owner can do it ?
[11:46] Marcus Llewellyn: No argument here. It's a long overdue overhaul.
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: ( currently they can't actually but just bc on another code path viewers do not see that right =
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: don't see.. but do have the right :)
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: well typical openim.. we start doing something that should be simple
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and endup finding that after all other areas of code are... well... not nice :p
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:49] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Oh well, a really well designed OpenSim 2.0 would be great^^
[11:49] James atLLOUD: yeah I experience that a lot as an admin too
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn: We could move to Halcyon. >:)
[11:49] Marcus Llewellyn braces for the uproar.
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: Marcus really
[11:50] James atLLOUD: lol
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: you want to move back to opensim 0.7 ?
[11:50] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: 0.6 even ^^
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: They actually branched back more like 0.6.7.. pre ROBUST anyway. But I was JOKING. heh
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: most this things at halycon are 0.7 or 0,6
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: they did nice things sure...
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: but code base is 0.6 or something
[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: Honestly, all I heard come out of them were new physics and script engines, and some custom backend grid services/db support.
[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: None of which makes simulator code prettier.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: yes those where their main change
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: possible also patchs here and there
[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Took them a long while just to support V2+ features.
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: well thats a problem with forks
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: we lack manpower
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: but it is what it is :)
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: btw what i may say about opensim code, has no relation to the coders than did it
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: they all did a good job, of course :)
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: .NET itself has changed a LOT since OpenSim started as well.\
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, thanks for the information and details about the god mode changes.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: .net did changed
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: and not necessary in a way to make opensim better
[11:56] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: they did the best they could do with the means and knowledge accessible by that time
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: quite the opposite
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: opensim is not a type of application for .net
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: MS has changed its focus for .NET quite a few times over the years. These days it seems to be all about ASP.NET.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: most of their optimizations and changes make opensim worse
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: GC is a case
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: If it didn't use .net we might be able to have code that can run more natively on different platforms and not need mono
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: .net is just for normal desktop applications
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: not for a thing running 100 threads fighting each other
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: and allocation MB objects just for a few ms
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: .net expects a MB size object to be used for a longer time
[12:00] Ubit Umarov: .net also consideres memory cheap
[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: I think we've all gotten used to the memory overhead, especially with Mono.
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: indeed. Some versions of mono make the memory overhead worse.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: so fast on new allocations
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: sloowwwww on releases
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: well memory is cheaper then in was 5yrs ago
[12:02] Marcus Llewellyn: Has there been any investigation on OpenSim freezing on shutdown on the newest versions of mono?
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: so .net ppl are right.. just for "normal" applications
[12:02] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: well, but it is what it is and that's quite a bit for us mere users - short of a complete redesign I don't see a way out of those restrictions. And that is gonna cost us a lot of work just to get to a point where the new software would be as useful as OpenSim is now
[12:05] George Equus: On the subject Location for this meeting place - move this build, some 400 prims total, to a platform above LBSA or one of the sandbox plazas eg.? Set up more stores on this lot.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I thought that that problem went away. It was an issue with some versions of mono. I might be wrong on that as I found it safer to stick with 3.2.8
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not using mono 4.x to run OpenSim instances other than for the standalone I run on my own machine.
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: This hour went by really fast today. Are there any other topics for today?
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: The problem I had with downgrading is that it seems older versions od Mono (pre 4) won't compile on newer Linux distros anymore, possibly due to the newer versions of GCC.
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: My first move was to try going down to 3.2.8
[12:09] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: thanks for the info -- must go --bye all
[12:09] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev 90dee2f: 2017-01-08 12:30:50 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, To compile old versions of mono you need to compile mono 2.10 first then you can build 3.2.8
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, I have built mono on a machine running CentOS 7.
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: almost no software suports downgrades :)
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: It fails before it every gets to the MCS stage, though.
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: It is a current version of Linux.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, it will fail on some mcs stage and tell you you need some older version of mono in order to compile the version you are trying to compile.
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: I can try compiling 2.10, though. Can't hurt.
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: No. I fail *before* it gets to MCS compilation.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Build and install 2.10 first and you will find you can use it to compile 3.x
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I've not seen that.
[12:11] James atLLOUD: Oddball question - does the decision to release OS v.9.1 happen in IRC?
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think I had to go back to a 2.x before 2.10 in order to build 3.2.8
[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: It happens in the secret developer chambers. ;)
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: James, that would be a discussion held in IRC.
[12:12] James atLLOUD: Ok, I wondered if maybe it was in the git. Thanks
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm surprised that the rc2 was still labelled as 0.9.0 since the code has been calling itself 0.9.1 for a while now
[12:12] James atLLOUD: Marcus, do you have secret developer chambers? :)
[12:13] Marcus Llewellyn: Nope. They think I smell funny.
[12:13] James atLLOUD: lol
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: we never released 0.9
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps he is a hogwarts student with access to a chamber of secrets. ;)
[12:13] James atLLOUD: I know, right? lol
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: so next release will be 0.9
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: 0.9.1 is work going on...
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: can will be included into 0.9 until there is a release
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: see ?
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, but someone bumped the code version in master to 0.9.1 ages ago. I think the rc2 might still have that version number in it.
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: yes.. that is ok
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I try to stay out of the release process and numbering/naming for OpenSim. It hurts my brain. :)
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: well me 2
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: That's Diva's domain. Blame Diva. :D
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: just don't mind been like this
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: 0.9.1 is current work
[12:16] James atLLOUD: Blame Diva - sounds like a good song or band name.
[12:17] Marcus Llewellyn: hehe
[[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it is about time to wrap up this meeting for today.
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: The code should have been branched and marked back at 0.9.0 for the rc2 but that is something to talk with Diva about.
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Seems like it has beena while since we last saw you here, Marcus.
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: andrew it was merged into 0.9
[12:20] Ubit Umarov: so current 0.9 == 0.91 what is the problem ?
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, is that what was done. I thought rc2 came from master
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: this way 0.9 can also have selected commits on 0.9.1
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: and not all like this just happen now
[12:21] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: And I would like to conclude the meeting with a heartfelt "Thank you for all your work" to the devs contributing to the advancement of OS
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Sheera

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