Chat log from the meeting on 2016-12-20

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[11:00] Ubit Umarov: what hell now i see a avatar that has neither a correct name nor an error name
[11:00] Ubit Umarov: ahhh worked now
[11:00] Sheera Khan: and project Bento ist live on the other grid ^^
[11:00] Ubit Umarov: guess it would had been a fail before my last changes on getnames
[11:02] Ubit Umarov: ohh well this crap is so damm broken possible unrepairable now
[11:03] Sheera Khan: especially the permissions?
[11:03] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Why do Germans like the Open Suse version of Linux so much?
[11:04] Sheera Khan: OpenSuSE was a company from Nuremberg in germany
[11:04] Sheera Khan: so it was the distro adapted the best to german technology like ISDN and so on
[11:05] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: makes sense
[11:05] Basil Sosides: Linux is a kind of Unix, isnt it ?
[11:05] Sheera Khan: german ISDN had some technical differences to other countries
[11:05] George Equus: Yes
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Basil, yes
[11:05] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Basil, you might hear people say it is unix, not Unix. :)
[11:05] Basil Sosides: yes
[11:06] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Does anybody still use Unix?
[11:06] Basil Sosides: not me
[11:06] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002 flüstert: well, that is conclusive!
[11:06] Ubit Umarov: you mean Unix or linux?
[11:07] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I wouldn't be surprised. After all, some people still use COBOL.
[11:07] George Equus Sheras tail caught on fire... hmmm
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: well comparing Unix to cobol is a big mistake
[11:07] Basil Sosides: Unix is used on big Computers only i think
[11:07] George Equus: My cousin live and breath unix, hate Windows
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: true unix versions are a lot more modern than linux
[11:08] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Have I told the joke: "I tried to run some new software on my old computer. It said "This software requires Windows 7 or better". So I installed Linix".
[11:08] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Do Sun or another company have ownership of Unix?
[11:08] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, heard it before
[11:09] Sheera Khan: Sun was bought by Oracle
[11:09] Sheera Khan: :-((
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: from operating systems theory point of view linux was some 10years step back
[11:09] George Equus: Someone up to re write Opensim in assembler?
[11:09] Basil Sosides: Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ haha - LOL Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
[11:09] Basil Sosides: Assambler, lot of work
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: George, The one that asks is often the one who gets to do it. :)
[11:09] Sheera Khan: well, at least Linux runs stable ^^
[11:09] George Equus: Would be a TINY installer..
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: linux stable? yeap.. not linux applications
[11:10] George Equus: Hrmmm was retorical Andrew, just saying
[11:11] Sheera Khan: @ James: UNIX® is a registered trademark of The Open Group.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yea, it has changed hands a few times
[11:11] Sheera Khan: I run Linux at about 99% of my time
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sheera, same here.
[11:11] Sheera Khan: no real issues here
[11:11] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Thanks Sheera - was just reading a Reddit thread that says the same.
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: unix is no longer at&t ?
[11:12] Sheera Khan: Ohhh, that info is ancient ^^
[11:12] George Equus: Seeing my cousin at work on the keyboard deterred me from using linux...
[11:12] Sheera Khan: Novell had the TM at some point
[11:12] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: probably :)
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: ooh yes is see open group now
[11:13] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Unix (/ˈjuː.nɪks/; trademarked as UNIX) is a family of multitasking, multiuser computer operating systems that derive from the original AT&T Unix, developed in the 1970s at the Bell Labs research center by Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, and others.[3]

Initially intended for use inside the Bell System, AT&T licensed Unix to outside parties from the late 1970s, leading to a variety of both academic and commercial variants of Unix from vendors such as the University of California, Berkeley (BSD), Microsoft (Xenix), IBM (AIX) and Sun Microsystems (Solaris). AT&T finally sold its rights in Unix to Novell in the early 1990s, which then sold its Unix business to the Santa Cruz Operation (SCO) in 1995,[4] but the UNIX trademark passed to the industry standards consortium The Open Group, which allows the use of the mark for certified operating systems compliant with the Single UNIX Specification (SUS). Among these is Apple's macOS,[5] which is the Unix version with the largest installed base as
[11:13] Sheera Khan: SCO was claiming the ownership - and failed spectacularly ^^
[11:13] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Modern linix systems have a nice graphical user interface, you don't have to use the keyboard all the time.
[11:14] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Jurassic Park ... "i know unix..."
[11:14] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: lol
[11:14] George Equus: And what distro to use... over 400 of them around
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Interesting that MacOS is considered "Unix". AFAIK, it is based on BSD Linux.
[11:15] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Sort of the same thing.
[11:15] Sheera Khan: BSD is a unix variant
[11:15] George Equus: Happy with my tame win 8 for now at least
[11:15] Sheera Khan: Linux is a different beast
[11:15] George Equus: Or maybe should call it Windows G  :) hacked and tweaked
[11:16] Sheera Khan: Linux is completely different in terms of the codebase
[11:16] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: The Ubuntu distro is one of the easiest to install.
[11:16] Sheera Khan: it just emulates the same behaviour
[11:16] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yea, I didn't meant to add Linux after BSD.
[11:17] Sheera Khan: technically BSD and Linux differ quite a bit
[11:17] Sheera Khan: but to the user not so much
[11:17] Sheera Khan: it is the GUI you use which determines the user experience...
[11:18] Sheera Khan: and the KDE is what I'm most comfortable with
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: yeap typical modern days... how you look matters, not what you are :p
[11:18] Sheera Khan: but there are different GUIs for different approaches - the open choice for the user is what I admire most
[11:18] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Linix has several different GUI front ends, you can find one you like!
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I still use Gnome, or more specifically, Mint.
[11:19] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: yes. There are a lot of desktop environments and windowing systems available.
[11:19] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, Gnome is a GUI that is kind of half way between Windows XP and MacOS
[11:20] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: s/Mint/MATE/
[11:21] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: git log looks like a frustrating week for Ubit - no?
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: To bring the discussions back to an OpenSim related item for a moment...
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: lets not go there James ;)
[11:21] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: This past week I had someone who was trying to register a new account so they could use the mantis system. While helping them I became aware that there is a problem with outgoing mail from opensimulator.org
[11:21] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: OK - understand :)
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Mail going to a hotmail.com address will just disappear in to a black hole.
[11:22] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: I would like to get up to speed on downloading and building OpenSim.exe. Andrew, we are already connected on Skype, can I bug you after this meeting to walk me through the steps of doing that?
[11:22] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: A TXT record needs to be added to the opensimulator.org domain so that a number of mail providers will know that mail from opensimulator.org is legitimate and allow the mail to be delivered.
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm still trying to determine who can add the TXT record. Anyone using a hotmail address to register for a wiki or mantis account won't get the confirmation emails until the TXT record is added.
[11:24] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.1.0 Dev eabd8cb: 2016-12-18 07:11:20 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: andrew yr outdated
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org flüstert: Am I?
[11:24] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Wouldn't be the first time. :)
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: [13:17] <Melanie_T> I added that SPF record
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ( that is 6 hours ago :p )
[11:25] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It would be nice if someone told me in the IRC channel.
[11:25] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: Well, being 6 hours out of date is not bad!
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: mb domain ttl is 8 hours so some sites will not see it
[11:26] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I mentioned the problem about two hours ago and no one commented it had been done.
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: [13:17] <Melanie_T> I added that SPF record
[16:26] * Joins: Plugh (~kcozens@CPE68b6fc4e50b3-CM68b6fc4e50b0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com)
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: lol
[11:27] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll test that to see if mail is getting through to hotmail.
[11:27] George Equus: Stopped using hotmail ages ago, became more or less unusable with constant nagging with demands of "confirmation of the account"
[11:27] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: it's all in the timing :0
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ohh Plugh is expert on timing at irc :p
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe
[11:29] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: That is an example of a race condition. ;)
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: ( like above example shows :p )
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: George, there are a lot of people who still use it. There are a lot of people trying to use it as their mail provider who have set up accounts in mantis.
[11:34] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: There is either a long delay in getting mail to hotmail or the TXT record that was added is incorrect. I'm still not seeing mail I send myself from the os.org machine.
[11:35] Sheera Khan: I guess - atm all hands available are working on a realease of OpenSimulator 0.9 - would there be some interest in implementing Bento in the next cycle?
[11:35] Sheera Khan: Bento is officially released on the other grid by now
[11:35] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Support for Bento can be done in a branch instead of waiting for a release of 0.9
[11:36] Sheera Khan: I just don't know if there is capacity dev-side just now ...
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: im with a bento viewer now
[11:37] Sheera Khan: I see quite some work being done on fixing all kind of stuff - and thankfully doing so ...
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: this is tail.. i see it as a tail
[11:37] Sheera Khan: me too :-)
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: now a right wing
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: and a left one
[11:38] Ubit Umarov: if you don't have fs 5.0 guess you are seeing pretty odd attachments
[11:38] Kayaker.Magic @grid.kitely.com:8002: boxes at angles
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: and it is a lot worse on meshs done for bento on older viewers
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: since older viewers are still the ones that do work better on opensim
[11:39] Basil Sosides: i see 3 Prims
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, it does look odd. I would have to switch to a FS 5.0 to see the attachments properly.
[11:40] James atLLOUD: ah, FS 4.7 - ever notice 'about fs' takes a long time to load/run?
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: fear we will not see much bento on opensim
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: bento compatibility with old viewers seems just not to crash them
[11:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's a good start ^^
[11:41] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: I see prims -- I am on FS 5.0.1
[11:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: yes Selby, but Ubit used the new attachmentpoints
[11:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: they are unknown to older viewers
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: im 2 lazy to try to upload a bento mesh avatar :p
[11:43] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Glad to see it works here, I just thought there would be some serverside work needed to keep the attachments at their place after a relog
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: but bento is mainly a viewer side thing
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: so it should work, eventually with minor fixes
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: assuming bento viewers do work on other things
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: so far this fs 5 does seem +-
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: pretty lazy to rez avatar textures
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: we need to zoom all in and touch the avatar sometimes
[11:44] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: right...
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: and do have a few pretty odd tp fails
[11:45] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: but I had the same issue with any viewer
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: it would be nice to have Bento support but we should wait until LL has finalized it.
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: and display names... yeack
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: guess SL will soon ban all viewers that do not suport bento
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: since we will keep having the old ones... guess no one will bother with bento
[11:46] Ubit Umarov: a bento mesh is pretty scary on older viewers
[11:47] Ubit Umarov: but regions will suport it.. unless there is a surprise i didn't noticed so far
[11:48] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: you non tail wearing beings don't need Bento that much ^^
[11:48] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: *giggles*
[11:48] James atLLOUD: indeed
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: and dam the tail in on the wrong side for males
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Would the changes needed to support Bento be minimal?
[11:48] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Would it be little more than making sure the attachment point number is valid under Bento?
[11:49] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: at least there are example avatars for Bento at: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Bento_Testing
[11:49] Ubit Umarov: Plugh stop thinking about food when you are here :p
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: i just showed 3 of those attachment points in work :p
[11:51] George Equus: I decided to stick with FS 4.7.9, later versions seem to adapt more and more to SL, going further away from Opensim
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: mb you can test then sheera.Khan
[11:51] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I couldn't use 4.7.9 as it had some broken dialog boxes. I had to stick with 4.7.7
[11:51] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'll have a try - you can rest assured
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, I'm not thinking of food. I've already had my lunch.
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: Plugh bento is fs +5.0
[11:52] George Equus: Only thing I really miss in FS is the mesh upload capability
[11:52] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I regularly upload meshes in FS
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: hmm it does mesh upload
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: does fail.. but well
[11:53] Bwild Parx: (...calculates safe distance...)
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: huh? I don't recall FS *not* having mesh upload ability. They may have just moved it to a different menu than in some other viewers
[11:53] George Equus: 4.7.7 is fine, anything above 4.7.9 probably break stuff or miss capabilities here but not in SL
[11:53] Ubit Umarov: this is a reupload with fx 5.0
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: George, check out 5.0
[11:53] George Equus: XML files can't be upladed with FS
[11:54] George Equus: If I recall correctly...
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: nice jet.
[11:54] Bwild Parx: oops
[11:54] George Equus: don't do it that often myself
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd like to know how to do texturing on mesh.
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: it is my old test on meshs
[11:55] Bwild Parx: bugggy seat :P
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, to get back to something you asked earlier, you can ask me later about compiling OpenSim. It isn't that hard to do.
[11:55] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that can be the tricky part @Andrew...
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: on the uploads noticed another thing
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: Thanks, I want to test some recent changes by Ubit
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: if you do not provide high res collider the generated convex hull is also pretty bad
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, yes. I can create the 3D models using a modelling program I have. Texturing is an issue for me. I have a model I want to upload once I can get textures applied.
[11:56] Bwild Parx: (George, i fixed my xml saves using updated Singularity)
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: oops wrong mesh lol
[11:57] George Equus: Yes, use Singu for the rare occasion  :)
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: dahh this is carp bullet
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: If you are doing XML uploads makes sure the XML file was created in the same program you are using to upload it.
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: type NONE == full collisions
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: bahhh
[11:58] George Equus: Andrew, tried FS 5, but went back to 4.. can't recall now why but something didn't work to my liking
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: so damm broken bullet on shape types.. well whatever.. old news
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: sorry i can't show how broken is the convex hull.. bullet doesn't use it
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: George, ok. The one issue I've had with FS 5.0 on a couple of times I tried it is I lost the ability to talk in voice soon after I had logged in to the grid. I could still hear but not talk even though I was able to talk when I first logged in.
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't used FS 5 enough to know if it is an FS issue or something with the voice system.
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivox has been known to hiccup now and then
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow. That hour flew by.
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: ( guess when no high res collider is set viewer uses the worse visible LOD to make the convex hull, and that does pretty bad collider )
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: btw you can see it with FS
[12:02] George Equus: Think is more of an issue with Vivox ports actually... I never get Voice enabled on my own regions, but here it is always loaded fine
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: For mesh I've just used LOD from above (the highest one) and then physics shape from file using the same file i'm uploading
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: on developer-> render metadata -> phsyics shaped
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: do it on a empty region.. viewer fps drops down a lot
[12:02] Bwild Parx: yep
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I haven't used mesh enough to know if that is "the right thing" to do or not. It seems to work.
[12:03] Bwild Parx: imo s/l prims are superior in shape, e.g, the perfect sphere, rather than imported obj or dae spheres
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: yeah select the highest lod will not cost much..on the asset it is just a pointer
[12:04] Bwild Parx: oh? to get a sphere imported w/o triangles?
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: sure if it is a large mesh phycics engine may go out on holidays if you set it as PRIM
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I saw that the other day but that was because I had another copy of a viewer running. :)
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: what you mea Bwild ?
[12:06] Bwild Parx: i did a reddit snoo and only looks good with native prims here
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: this is a primitive for physics
[12:06] Bwild Parx: the collada and obj builds of it look terible due to the triangles showing on the spheres
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: not a mesh
[12:06] Bwild Parx: try a collada sphere :P
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: delete it and replace it by
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: this
[12:07] George Equus: Andrew, not too bothered, assume can be fixed with proper settings in Opensim.ini or some such?... as some regions is OK others get the error on first log on.
[12:07] Ubit Umarov: x = y = Z == physics primitive.. not a mesh
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Bwild: the stock prims have more triangles than a model file you can import as mesh
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I didn't see that message when I logged in. I have the voice chat dot over my head.
[12:08] Bwild Parx: idk, all i knows is Snoo only looks good with s/l prims
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: for physics colliders this are yr best friends
[12:08] George Equus: Andrew I am enabled now, after direct log on here.
[12:09] Bwild Parx: (im sure i am missing the point of mesh distinctions)
[12:09] George Equus: Strange, change took place 6 months ago about I think. not a viewer thing then
[12:09] George Equus: same viever for ages
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: The SL prims have extra vertexes to facilitate torturing them. You can build mesh versions that have far fewer vertexes and that is good.
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today or do we wrap this up?
[12:12] George Equus leave carefully avoiding lethal weaponry...
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week.
[12:13] Kayaker Magic: This truck is slowly turning into SL prims....
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: the prims are the physics colliders
[12:14] Ubit Umarov: for phsyics this is 4 spheres and 6 or so boxes
[12:14] Bwild Parx: too bad ode or bullet doesnt have deformations
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: deformations are viewer side things
[12:15] Bwild Parx: a military hummer w/o road rage damage via ied's is a nonstarter :P
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: even on games
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: simulation of a deformable body is just 2 heavy

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