Chat log from the meeting on 2016-10-25

[11:06] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Good afternoon, everyone
[11:08] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: So what does it mean on the Git 'flip master'?
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: flip master? Where does it say that?
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org looks
[11:09] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: the shortlog - entry from Diva Canto
[11:09] Kayaker Magic: I see gray people. Oh, you are supposed to be gray James!
[11:09] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: oh. It refers to updating the version noted in the code.
[11:09] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: I am so gray.
[11:10] Kayaker Magic: Not to be confused with gay.
[11:10] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: It should really use the word "change" or "update" instead of flip.
[11:10] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Not geeky enough Andrew
[11:10] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: OK thanks.
[11:11] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'm not sure why Diva marked it as 0.9.1 since we haven't had a release of 0.9 yet.
[11:11] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: gay gray - is it meme time?
[11:11] Kayaker Magic: Anybody know if Nebanon is coming? I'm curious about the state of OSCC
[11:11] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i think because 9.0 is on a branch and master is now the next one
[11:12] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, I was at the last meeting and proposal acceptance letters should be going out soon.
[11:12] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: I'll keep an eye out for him. I haven't seen him on the IRC today.
[11:13] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Last OSCC organizing meeting also accomplished a decent draft of a schedule.
[11:13] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Oooo I am voice enabled tonight! Comes and goes randomly on log in...
[11:14] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: The version change was made in master.
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: Robert, how goes the battle with mantis 8010?
[11:19] Robert Adams: I played with it and decided the problem was deep inside Bullet... somehow the collision is being sensed by the collision manifolds weren't showing the events
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: wow!
[11:20] Robert Adams: I'm not sure if updating Bullet engine or moving to Bullet3 would be better
[11:20] Robert Adams: sadly, I don't have a short term fix for it yet
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: (8010 is a bug where objects collide but do not report collision events to scripts waiting for them)
[11:21] Robert Adams: Bullet has some oddities to it (when applied to OpenSimulator).... like surface collied on both sides which doesn't happen in SL physics... so there is some code to overcome that
[11:21] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: ah the old bullet collision misses, thats been around for awhile
[11:22] Robert Adams: I could be computnig the collision normal wrong.... but, again, it is kinda low level
[11:22] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: thank you for the explanation
[11:23] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Robert mentioned Bullet3. Has there been some more work on that physics engine?
[11:24] Robert Adams: I can duplicate it... that's a good thing... I have a gun that shoots cubes at a wall... and they sometimes bounce without a collision event... that should not happen
[11:24] Robert Adams: the work on Bullet3 seems to be really slow.... I originally (years ago) went with Bullet because it was supposed to have hardware acceleration
[11:25] Robert Adams: now, years later, it still doesn't
[11:25] Robert Adams: and now there is Bullet3... when the Bullet author was hired by Google, I thought we'd get lots more progress... but it still seems to be a hobby
[11:26] Robert Adams: Bullet3 has hardware acceleration but there are library problems (the OpenCL/CV/... interfaces keep changing) and Bullet3 doesn't have all the constraint implementations and optimizations that Bullet2 has
[11:27] Robert Adams: so, I'm kinda left wondering where to go with physics
[11:27] Robert Adams: I'd like to make a physics engine that is just a region module
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: I heard HiFi is using BulletSim, do you know which one?
[11:28] Robert Adams: that would allow remoting physics (running on another machine) and otherwise eliminating all the specialized code that's embedded in the simulator.... that's a bigger project
[11:28] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Robert, does the current structure of OpenSim make it possible to run a physics engine as a region module?
[11:29] Robert Adams: HiFi is using the Bullet physics engine... they are using 2.82
[11:29] Robert Adams: "BulletSim" is the adaption of the Bullet physics engine for OpenSimulator (to keep the terminology correct)
[11:30] Robert Adams: Andrew: I think so since we were able to the Distribute Scene Graph (DSG) version of OpenSImulator...
[11:30] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: ok
[11:31] Robert Adams: there are some hooks for LSL functions (especially vehicles) that would need to be added... so, I think there will need to be some more events and some API additions but it should be 95% there
[11:31] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: At some point you will need to decide which way to go on the physics engine so you can concentrate on just one.
[11:33] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: fascinating discussion
[11:35] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Good discussion of bullet physics
[11:35] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: cool
[11:35] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Why do we need several physics? Thought ubODE was to become the standard...
[11:35] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org ruft: me too George
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: hehe... Don dodged a bullet.
[11:36] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org grins
[11:36] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: =)
[11:36] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Kayaker, which engine seems best for vehicles/boats?
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Still no sign of nebadon on IRC. I don't think he will be here today, or he will be rather late.
[11:37] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: Has anyone seen a summery of pros and cons of the different physics engines?
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: I do a lot of non-physical boats, so I often don't care which engine is used
[11:38] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: Will repeat question now that Robert is back - Why do we need several physics? Thought ubODE was to become the standard...
[11:38] Robert Adams: that "standard" physics engine should be the one that works for the content creators.... if UBit keeps working on ubODE, it could easily displace BulletSim
[11:38] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i prefer quantum physics, the learning curve is steep but its randomness makes more sense in the end......< hehe >
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: I care when llCastRay works well, and some physics engines do that for you.
[11:39] Robert Adams: BulletSim because the 'standard' because it was better than the old ODE...
[11:39] Robert Adams: may be best physics engine win :)
[11:39] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: So, wait and see then...
[11:39] Andrew.Hellershanks @hg.osgrid.org: :)
[11:40] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: I use ubODE, and can drive, sail and fly fine
[11:40] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: never worked well on Bullet
[11:40] George.Equus @hg.osgrid.org: for me at least
[11:40] Robert Adams: and all the code is available... someone could sit down and add llCastRay for BulletSim.... the underlying Bullet physics engine has the code... there is just a lot of plumbing and such to add
[11:43] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: For gaming, is ODE enough for... bullets?
[11:43] Kayaker Magic: Perhaps ODE is good enough for bullets, the default llCastRay is not.
[11:45] Robert Adams: there is a "does the physics engine support raycast" check.... ODE and ubODE say "yes' so the physics engine function is used
[11:45] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev 586e4cf: 2016-10-17 19:16:07 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried to get a hot air balloon working in latest OpenSim with BulletSim but it still doesn't work properly. I can't even get it off the ground.
[11:46] Robert Adams: BulletSim currently says 'no' so a software only test is done.... that test only uses the object bounding boxes so it was inaccurate as well as being slower
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: One of the other llCastRays sees phantom objects when you tell it not to (I forget, if that is V3 or upODE).
[11:46] Robert Adams: the buoyancy vehicle functions aren't working in BulletSim?
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: It doesn't appear to be working. I'll have to look more closely at the scripts to see which functions it is using to make the balloon move.
[11:55] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: testing testing...../taps on the mic......is anyone there? < no chat for 8 min, whats up? >
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:56] Kayaker Magic: I ran out of questions for today
[11:56] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: .../dies of shock
[11:56] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ROFL
[11:56] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ..../waits for kayakers lol
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: If this meeting has gotten this quiet we should just wrap things up for today.
[11:57] Kayaker Magic: Justa about lunch time here.
[11:57] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i could do a few minutes of comedy, but we'd probably all dobetter if we wrap it up instead, rofl
[11:58] James atLLOUD: I have an oddball question. Is simhost still hosting the wiki?
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: which wiki?
[12:00] James atLLOUD: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Main_Page
[12:00] James atLLOUD: just curious to whom to be thankful
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: No idea. I just see opensimulator.org as the host. No idea what machine(s) are running it.
[12:02] James atLLOUD: ok, like I said, just curious.