Chat log from the meeting on 2016-10-04

[11:00] George Equus: Wow, a perfect sit tonight!  :)
[11:01] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: mine worked first try also
[11:01] George Equus: Last meet I had to try 5 times..
[11:02] James atLLOUD: I was having trouble getting my appearance yesterday - 9:30 pst on this grid.
[11:03] James atLLOUD: Viewer cache?
[11:03] James atLLOUD: Got it today tho.
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry, I couldn't be here last week. I had a business meeting downtown schedule for the time of this gathering.
[11:06] James atLLOUD: Know how that is, Andrew. Priorities.
[11:06] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i used to play Real Life, but i try not too anymore
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: yup. I was meeting with a potential new client.
[11:06] Sheera Khan: I hope everything went well :-)
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Sometimes it can't be avoided, Don.
[11:07] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: new client for your real life business/work, or something to do with virtual reality?
[11:07] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: no worries, its all good =)
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, It was ok. Don't know yet if I will be doing work for them or not.
[11:08] Sheera Khan: at the last meeting the question emerged wether you found any showstoppers with the 0.9 you rolled out within a grid
[11:09] Sheera Khan: The list at http://opensimulator.org/index.php?title=0.9_Bug_List&action=history isn't getting much love :-(
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: show stoppers? Hm... Nothing comes immediately to mind. I was having some issues.
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: yeap it was said you where having a big "drama"
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I have an issue with how landing points are being handled in regions. I'm not sure I think the behaviour is right. It isn't quite what I would expect.
[11:10] Sheera Khan: so that's great news... small issues are always to be found and to be expected in a release candidate
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought I had a problem with fallback regions not working but it turns out the the regions that had been set as fallback no longer existed in the grid. :)
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: There are still some issues with vars.
[11:12] Robert Adams: which issues are those, Andrew?
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: err what small issues with vars?
[11:13] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Where might you guys think Open Simulator will be in say 3 months? 6 months? and 1 year? as compared to what out now? < in general, is there a new roadmap of progression? >
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: a never ending thing is improving what we have of course
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: still lots of work on that
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to get a list of the issues from the person who has been saying there are issues.
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: include putting some client specific code in its place, so other clients ( ie viewers) can be suported easier
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Don, there isn't a formal roadmap. I'm not sure where we will be in 3 months, 6 months or a year from now.
[11:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I guess what i am asking, how is open simulator going to compare with other grid systems in development in the near future, like halycon and hi fidelity, and who knows what other things might be working on we dont know atm, vs how it is now
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I would hope that some of the higher memory usage and/or higher CPU loads that have been reported are dealt with to bring things back to the pre-0.9 levels.
[11:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: forgive my poor typonese
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: since opensim is by design suposed to work with diferent type of viewers
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: just since till now we only have one main type... some "pollution" happened
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: physics is still a issue...
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks flüstert: yea, that was the other thing I was going to comment on.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: our two main engines are still a bit diferent in some details.. we will try to reduce those
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope that the physics/vehicle support will be complete within the year.
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: so only the ones from the external code stay ( reason to have 2 )
[11:21] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: What do you dev's think is needed to develop a "action plan" that can be implemented and followed to progress open simulator forward? is it a funding issue?
[11:22] Sheera Khan: Is the fragmentation or alternatives in having several physics engines and maybe script engines too helpful?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: another diff mb that we will not follow ll anymore
[11:22] Sheera Khan: Or does it lead to incompatible scripts running on one region but not on the next one?
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: depending on the aspects.. LSL script functions and inworld contents we will try to follow more
[11:22] Sheera Khan: That would be a big discouragement for users ...
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: not on viewer region aspects
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: new LL based viewers will not work on opensim
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well depending on what ll does :)
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: reason is tech
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: LL is changeing the viewers making them more "glued" to their enviroment and infrasture
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: opensim needs to work also on small home standalones
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: see ?
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Don, we can sit down and write up a few notes of some of the important (however that is to be defined) issues that need to be addressed.
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: After that, it comes down to who can do the work and who has the time to do the work.
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Money doesn't help if there is no one you can pay who has the knowledge and time to do the work needed.
[11:26] Robert Adams: OpenSim has never been organized around a roadmap and the developers have not worked for any particular agenda... this has both its good and bad aspects
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: That is typical of a lot of Open Source projects.
[11:28] Robert Adams: that doesn't mean that someone defining a direction wouldn't work in the future
[11:28] Robert Adams: but it has been anarchy in the past (in the 'good' sense in that there has independent developers)
[11:28] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev f3e7603: 2016-10-02 11:54:07 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Melanie might be pursuaded to work on certain features if you were to offer her some money.
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: For the most part, those who can do the bug and feature fixing for OpenSim are already working on the code.
[11:29] Robert Adams: that might not be what it needs in the future, though... I do see a need to generate some momentum
[11:29] James atLLOUD: Andrew and all - on Sunday Maria Korolov said something like Melanie has stepped forward as a representative of the core devs.
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: opensim did had moments with a defined set of goals to achive ( or roadmap) and will have again
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: A release candidate for 0.9 has been issued so we do need a short term roadmap of things that still need to be done before we can do a formal release of 0.9
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: of course it will never be like a coorporation doing only what the marketing department defines :P
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: true
[11:32] James atLLOUD: a dev 'spokeperson' - does that makes sense?
[11:32] Robert Adams: the media likes a 'spokesperson' to deal with
[11:32] James atLLOUD: Sense to the norms in the dev community.
[11:33] Robert Adams: it doesn't help/change the development any
[11:33] Ubit Umarov: well some called that to melanie already :)
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: That doesn't surprise me, James.
[11:34] Robert Adams: should start small.... add to the wiki a small 'roadmap' or 'next steps' and see about getting developers to attack the points
[11:34] Ubit Umarov: for example on very bad article about 0.9 and meshs issues..
[11:34] Robert Adams: don't need to have a 'take over the world' agenda right away
[11:34] James atLLOUD: yeah, that worries me @take over
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: We should also review the current list of outstanding reports in the mantis and prioritizing some of them.
[11:35] James atLLOUD: @ubit - mesh issues are incorrect?
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: on that article yeap
[11:35] James atLLOUD: wow -ty
[11:35] Ubit Umarov: i added a bit more info on the release notes
[11:36] George Equus: What Korolov say need to be checked "from the horses mouth", she tend to publish things out of context....
[11:36] Robert Adams: the 'mesh issue' is one of the physics engine differences ubit mentioned earlier
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: I just got a partial response to my question about issues with 0.9
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: There are some permissions related issues. Another is an ongoing problem with llCastRay being very slow. There seems to be some pausing, about once a second, in scripted movement.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ( http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.9.0.0_Release we are still writing it )
[11:37] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I would like to say this......."I , for one, Very Much appreciate ALL the work you guys have done to support and develop open simulator for everyones use, if i were rich i would probably hire a team to come in and work with you all to really get things advancing, but i am not rich, i am a poorman sadly, But i said that to make sure you know I do appreciate all thats been done and that you do now!" < as i am sure some of my questions might make you feel otherwise since you all dont know me well to know otherwise >
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I still have my partial summary of the avination code merge that I need to complete.
[11:38] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I hope that made sense
[11:38] George Equus: Second that
[11:39] Ubit Umarov: hire a team ? you mean we are bad and need to be replaced by a hired team?
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Don. It is nice to hear positive comments now and then.
[11:40] Sheera Khan: I think that's not what Don wanted to say ...
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: :P
[11:40] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am not saying you are bad
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: yeah imagine maria reading that and posting it
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, I was responding to the first part of his comment.
[11:40] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am saying and asking questions to see if there is a way i can help make things better
[11:40] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:41] James atLLOUD: :P :P
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: You can always help by filing reports for issues you discover that aren't already reported.
[11:42] Jim Jackson: that they don't do things the way you want them to so you or your group will step in and tell them how to do things?
[11:42] Sheera Khan: or adding notes to existing issues
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: If you can reproduce an issue where there is no listed means of reproducing the issue in the report that can be added to a mantis.
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: we did had somthing like a team showing up telling we are the best, we are going o fix all opensim.. hmm2 yrs ago?
[11:43] Ubit Umarov: well whatever
[11:43] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I understand that, I am looking at the bigger picture, where is OS now, where is it headed and whats next in the virtual world industry as a whole, There is reason to be concerned that the market will fund other systems and make OS obsolete to the point it is not used by enough to support its continued growth or even maintain it.
[11:43] George Equus: As a simple user benefiting from all your work, all I can say is that I am pretty happy with how things work and problems handled. Things have improved immensely since I came on board this ship some 5 years ago
[11:43] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: this could sadly happen in less then 3 yrs
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Another thing that would help is if some of the people who fork OpenSim and fix issues would pass the fixes back to OS.
[11:45] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: no doubt there i am sure
[11:45] Robert Adams: that's not what he said, UBit
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: People who fork the code often wind up each fixing the same issues independant of each other. If some of the fixes got pushed back to the core repo of OS it would save others work and help advance the OpenSim project.
[11:46] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: greed is why that doesnt happen
[11:46] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: those same people have there own agenda's to sell grids ect....
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: well, some changes are kept private if it gives a grid a competetive advantage over other grids.
[11:47] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: whats in open simulator for you guys? why do you do what you do with OS?
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... the Release notes say llCastRay has improved performance with ubODE but it needs to be improved in BulletSim.
[11:48] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: how do you profit from the work s you guys do for OS? personal satisfaction? monetary gains somewhere somehow? < like you own grids or something > or what
[11:50] Ubit Umarov: guess each one will give you a diferent answer
[11:50] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i ask for a reason, that reason is simple, what motivates you guys to do this work? what can be done to improve that overall? How can others contribute and get the desired results? is this making sense?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of the work I do for OS just gives me personal satisfaction. Some is done because the changes may be needed for a grid I help support. Other ways to get money from OS is if/when I can sell some items in one of the virtual worlds I am in.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't get that many sales. I also don't have a lot of time to build items in-world.
[11:51] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: and the concerns are , where is OS headed in the near future so it is not replaced by a "corporation funded system"
[11:52] James atLLOUD: I'm wondering if these office hours are the right place for the 'future of OS' discussion.
[11:52] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I ask big questions and i know some have no answers atm,
[11:52] Kayaker Magic: I'm thinking about Don's earlier statement and how he could have said it better, like "If I were rich I would hire all you devs full time and hire you a bunch of minions to help you out"
[11:53] James atLLOUD: nicely said Kayaker
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I understood what he meant.
[11:53] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty kayaker
[11:53] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe, yeah. That's what we need. Our own army of minions. :)
[11:54] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:54] James atLLOUD: <imagines appropriate ASCII art)
[11:54] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: well i am having a "rough day " with my health issues and i know my intent might not convey properly, so clarifying them helps actually, ty!
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: hmm better take a sit then Don
[11:55] James atLLOUD: I think this relates to Ubit's comment about hearing from the horses' mouth.
[11:55] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: there is ZERO intent to insult anyone here or the works thay have done
[11:55] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: taking a sit wont help any of us Ubits
[11:55] Ubit Umarov: well wold help this region physics at least :)
[11:56] James atLLOUD: As a user, I'm not adept at IRC - so what's a good way to hear from the horse? lol
[11:56] George Equus: Was me with the horse lol just saying Korolow can't be seen as the full story on an article.. she ships some facts at times, making the info given wrong
[11:57] James atLLOUD: (though freenode is behaving nice today)
[11:57] James atLLOUD: And that's journalism George.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: James, I didn't know we had a talking horse. ;)
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: In particular, that is journalism on the Internet.
[11:57] James atLLOUD: lol
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: freenode had the big luck of been chosen as helpdesk for many productis
[11:57] George Equus: Very true
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: helpdesk foruns etc of many products
[11:58] Ubit Umarov: well like opensim :)
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: This hour went by fast. Before we start heading out separate ways is there any other topic any of you wanted to discuss that we haven't gotten to yet?
[12:00] George Equus: Any info on the short outage? What it was about
[12:00] George Equus: Assets...
[12:01] George Equus: Glad was sorted quickly though
[12:02] Ubit Umarov: you mean assets at osgrid?
[12:02] George Equus: yes, latest tweet say very little
[12:02] James atLLOUD: George, what time yesterday?
[12:02] George Equus: yes
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: well thats something where osgrid is not using opensim code
[12:03] George Equus: grid went offline briefly
[12:03] James atLLOUD: I had problems getting my appearance around 9:30am slt
[12:03] James atLLOUD: ok - it was up then.
[12:03] George Equus: I had to choose that precice moment to upload an OAR...
[12:04] James atLLOUD: ah - ow.
[12:04] George Equus: server spewing "returning missing bla bla bla until dawned on me something was up with the grid
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: btw osgrid also doesnt use opensim code on profiles and search
[12:04] George Equus: thing is, my ISP also had issues about that time...
[12:04] Ubit Umarov: reasons are historic opensim did not had those
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: changing now is a migration nightmare
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, no it doesn't. It is using the addon OpenSimSearch and OpenSimProfile modules I maintain.
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:06] George Equus: Anyway, everything is back to normal, no remaining problems for me at least
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I still use them in my standalone. I haven't looked at what it would take to migrate to core search and profile.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: databases i guess
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: err we do have search? lol
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: of course. I don't know how similar, or different, are the tables between the addon modules and core.