Chat log from the meeting on 2016-09-27

[11:06] Kayaker Magic: Andrew is having lots of problems on a grid where they switched to 0.9, he may have had time get away from him
[11:11] Basil Sosides: can Opensim-Software adapted to IPv6, or is that impossible ?
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: but what "lots of problems" are pll having with 0.9 ?
[11:11] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: and there is no money here for them to take and use elsewhere, so we are pretty much on our own for the next 4 yrs
[11:12] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: .../ponders building a virtual trump towers and selling it to trump............ lol
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: about Ipv6
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: adapting OpenSim wouldnt be that hard
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: however
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: making the viewer do it will proove very difficult
[11:13] Basil Sosides: can Opensim-Software adapted to IPv6, or is that impossible ?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure how hard the viewer will be, since most of the OpenSim devs are not very much into the viewer its really hard to say
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: chances are if LL doesnt do it, it probably just wont get done
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: ( we where forbidden to look to viewers code not that long ago )
[11:14] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ?
[11:14] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: any thoughts on the moses project web viewer for halycon being adapted for open sim use?
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ipv6 is the least of the viewer problems
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: very little actually directly supports ipv6 at this point
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt any game platform does
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: at this point
[11:15] Basil Sosides: ah, it depends on Viewer too
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: BTW we released the OpenSim version of Kokua today
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:15] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i saw an article on that a few minutes ago
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: http://blog.kokuaviewer.org/2016/09/26/kokua-opensim-viewer-released/
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: static ipv4 ips sell well :p
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: thanks Gavin
[11:15] stiofain mactomais: im on it Gavin good so far but purple is hurting my eyes
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: while that is a good business... no ipv6
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: most ISPs wont even ever force their customers to use IPv6
[11:15] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hehe
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we will change the color scheme for it
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: they will use IPv6 on the back end up to the ATMs outside of neighborhoods
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it was not the first prio
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: then use IPv4 at the modem level
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: even though they will support ipv6 to customers
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: they wont force it on anyone probably ever
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: they will use vlans
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: to get around it
[11:17] Basil Sosides: i got one of the last avalible static Ipv4 from Vodafone/germany
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: so there is very little pressure on software developers to actually ever support ipv6
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea getting static IPv4 will become more difficult
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: but then again most of the ipv4 addresses are not actually being used
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I think its going to be a while before we are worrying to much about ipv6
[11:18] Basil Sosides: true
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: ok but what problems are grids having migrating to 0.9 ??
[11:19] Basil Sosides: the latest Version 09 takes more CPU-Power at startup-Sequence
[11:19] Basil Sosides: on Win.net
[11:19] Sheera Khan: too bad Andrew isn't here today, he might have a tale to tell about it...
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: yea he said he had another meeting he had to attend today
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: will be back next week
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: he is usually at irc.
[11:20] Ubit Umarov: don't remember him reporting a "drama" so far :)
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: yea me either
[11:22] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Is Avatar Fest on a v9 grid? Is that the drama?
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: He is helping Virtual Highway upgrade to v9
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: think avatarfest is on 0.8.3.1
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: or the region i seen yesterday was
[11:23] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ok
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: they had a lot of trouble with their management system, avatars not going to teleport hubs, some scripts not working
[11:23] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: neat place, i built a ulta modern art galleria for it and giving it away full perm for the event
[11:24] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Yes - i saw posts on the Google+ page: https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/100335141401305291462
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: yeap he did report a few minor issues.. fixed now i hope
[11:24] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ok
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: some issues wheren't even 0,9 ones :)
[11:25] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: thanks everyone, and I'll see you in a few!
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: but we can expect problems.. 0.9 has a lot of different code
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: and its been a while since last release.. so thinks accumulate..
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ( and viewers also changed.. not necessary better )
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: ( ok they are worse :p )
[11:28] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Firestorm in particular? Ubit?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: all that merged in ll code
[11:29] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: ok
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: an example.. if you move the mouse over land
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: they ask for parcel data several time per second
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: on a large region thats MB/s of useless data
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: so i don't just mean bad for opensim... for sl also
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: just sl regions are tiny... and have fast net and machines :)
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: Robert, have you seen OpenSim Mantises number 8010 and 8011 yet?
[11:35] Kayaker Magic: I'm not getting some collision events
[11:35] Robert Adams: let me look
[11:38] Kayaker Magic: Don, what is the organization called that Selby is starting?
[11:39] Robert Adams: there does seem to be a general problem with collision events... I've suspected that BulletSim is doing something a little different
[11:39] Robert Adams: I'll need to do some testing... although it's hard to set a breakpoint on something that doesn't happen ::)
[11:40] Kayaker Magic: But the bullets that bounce off are obviously detecting collisions,
[11:40] Kayaker Magic: put a breakpoint there and see why they aren't sending the events
[11:42] Robert Adams: I do suspect the problem is in the passing of the collision from the physics engine to the script engine... that is a long and difficult path
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: yea xengine needs lovin :)
[11:43] James.atLLOUD @hg.osgrid.org: Ironic - bullets in bulletSim
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: bullets do have tunnelling effect
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I'm over worrying about tunneling
[11:44] Robert Adams: somepeople make bullets several meters long so they don't tunnel... it is a problem with physics simulation
[11:44] Ubit Umarov: not from quantic mechanics but similar :)
[11:44] stiofain mactomais: is this the thing you mean kayaker article by steve levigne? http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/2016-oshg-opensim-what-it-will-take-to.html
[11:45] Kayaker Magic: I call those long "bullets" caveman spears in a 21st century simulation
[11:45] stiofain mactomais: is real hard to find anything in selbys blog but that article should get a bigger audience
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: Yeah, Selby invited me to join early on and recently sent me an IM about it again, but I don't know where to go to "join". I thought Don would know
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: And I'm glad to hear I am not the only one who can never find anything in Selby's blog....
[11:47] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: atm, joining up is via myself, or posting at selbys blog, we will have a web site available later this week
[11:48] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: and its as simple as a verbal agreement saying you are wanted to help be part of the project, its intent is to find the best ways to use resources to make open sim better for all
[11:48] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: we have initial funding
[11:49] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2016/09/2016-hg-oshg-development-oshg-committee.html
[11:49] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: is the initial comity listing,
[11:50] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: a who's who of folks involved will be posted via the new web site by next week
[11:50] Robert Adams: is Moses looking to that group as the possible 'owner' of Moses?
[11:51] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: we will be meeting with moses very soon
[11:51] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: if we get counted off for my bad typing, we are doomed, rofl
[11:52] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: everyone fluent in typonese yes?
[11:52] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:53] James atLLOUD: keyboarding is what my kids were taught
[11:53] James atLLOUD: no typewriters no mo
[11:53] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: What i am doing, is volunterring my time and effort to find the right folks to be involved and getting everyone together, then the comities will determine how is best to use our funding to get things done
[11:54] Kayaker Magic: Someone mentioned earlier that the LSL engine needed love, one way to do that would be to take the sources InWorldz recently published and see if they can be adapted back into OpenSim. They completely re-wrote the LSL interpereter and it works very good.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: We have done that
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: its very different, we need to be careful when talking about Halcyon and OpenSim
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: you cant just take stuff from Halcyon and drop it into opensim
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you are talking about major breakage to do stuff like that
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: Yes, but converting their LSL engine to OpenSim might be a lot less work than starting over
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: there is very little crossover anymore between these platforms
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: we have looked at it
[11:55] stiofain mactomais: where did funding come from?
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its still not something that can be done lightly
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: you are going to need some major support from multiple core developers to get something like that done
[11:56] Robert Adams: we could use lots of script engines... the code is there to allow different scripting languages
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: yea, we are definitely open to the idea for sure
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: I just want to stress that its not something we can just drop in
[11:57] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: Selby evans has given $20,000 for intial funding himself via his non profit, new media arts, to be matched on a 2 to 1 basis , via donations or fund raising. 100 donated = 300 to use
[11:57] Robert Adams: even LSL-ish versions could co-exist
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: you guys need to be super clear about this
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: there is also the aurora/whitecore engine
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: what I dont want to happen is people get paid for work
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: then core team rejects the work
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: but none that easy to "integrate"
[11:57] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: i understand what you mean
[11:57] Robert Adams: that just means there will be a fork
[11:57] James atLLOUD: Good point Nebadon
[11:58] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: getting involved would be a great way to express your concerns to the comities
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: yea, my suggestion would be to try to partner up with a core developer
[11:58] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am not paid, and i do not decide where or how any funding will be spent
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: if someone is going to take on pay work, make sure they have a line to core
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: as early as possible
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: be in IRC, make us aware of everything that is going on
[11:59] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev 6779f41: 2016-09-24 22:21:51 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: dont submit mega patches
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: dont work on something for months then drop an uber patch on us
[11:59] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: being transparent about all of this 100% , and so will the project stay open for all
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: it very likely will get rejected
[11:59] Kayaker Magic: ?Don't sumit mega patches? Like 0.9?
[11:59] Ubit Umarov: ( i did submit initial ubOde as a single patch ages ago :) )
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: well a core developer took that on
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: what I am saying is unknown new developers
[12:00] Robert Adams: and you see how much of a problem that has been.... it won't happen again, I'm sure
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: doing for pay work for first time, and then just out of the blue dropping a huge patch on us
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: that will definitely lessen the chances of anyone wanting to look at it
[12:00] ************** SUPPORT (francais) **************: Der Support-Knopf (deutsch) auf *Metropolis* wurde von frederic365 resident gedrückt! Zeit : 21:0:40 Datum: 2016-09-27
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: so just make sure we know what is going on early
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: keep a presence in IRC if possible
[12:00] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: what i am saying, is these concerns have already been discussed and addressed in our formation of this project, no worries gentlemen, your concerns were thought of in advance.
[12:00] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I'm not so sure a fragmentation into a lot of subtly different scripting engines is going to help
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: 0.9 is not a patch  :p
[12:01] James atLLOUD: The 'core developers' are a mystical group to many users. Hard to understand.
[12:01] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: if a script works on one region but not on the next the scripts are going to be useless
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: there are 3 of them here today :)
[12:01] Robert Adams: ya Sheera... there we'd probably end up with multiple engines that needed love :)
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and hey if someone does good work
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we are certainly open to bringing them into the core team
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and expanding that
[12:01] Ubit Umarov: we already have complains bc we have several physics engines :)
[12:02] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: currently, open sim development lacks in a structure to follow and a system of self support for future development
[12:02] dan banner: choices are good ☻
[12:03] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and I vaguely remember a grid having collected some dollars already to port Phlox over to OpenSim (but never heard about it again...)
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: not really dan choices or options are good for tech ppl.. not to main users
[12:03] dan banner: ubit: thats why theres defaults
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: main users need things easier to use
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I think one of the big factors of Phlox
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: is it has very little linux testing
[12:03] Ubit Umarov: yeap remember my fight helping that guy putting up a standalone? :p
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i even recall the inworldz website having a "well it should work" disclaimer
[12:04] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: to my knowledge the whole Halcyon server is supposed to run on windows
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: it was designed to run on Windows
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: there has been very little linux testing from what I know
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: which makes it not so great a candidate for core
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: would need more testing
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: for sure
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: cause if it doesnt work well in linux under mono
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: there is no point in porting it
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: xengine actually only has one basic problem
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: so it would be good for those who are interested in finding this out
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: a damm important one :(
[12:06] James atLLOUD: I'm really curious to know of the core devs here - is a support organizaton good/wanted?
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: I just dont have the time to test Halcyon myself
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: sure James
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we need more people involved
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but we need to make sure we stay coordinated
[12:07] Robert Adams: there used to be a support organization... having a forum and people helping is good
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: and we need to remember OpenSimulator is 100% volunteer effort
[12:07] Kayaker Magic: Justin once said that fixing some things, like llSleep hogging the threads, would require a major re-write to the LSL scripting engine. IW did that re-write, it should be considered as a fix to some of our long standing problems.
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: we cant force people to work on something
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: like a corporation would
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: or the Army
[12:07] stiofain mactomais: sir yes sir
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: people have to want to do these things
[12:07] James atLLOUD: Yes. totally agree. Open Source is still a relatively new human creation but we can learn from the past.
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: just making a list of things and having money is not going to be enough
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: there has to be a real interest from people who are qualified
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: to do that kind of work
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: james.. everything started as opensource
[12:08] Robert Adams: there is also the LSL compiler from Aurora... that's probably been moved into WhiteCore
[12:08] James atLLOUD: lol true @ubit
[12:09] Kayaker Magic: haaving some money might motivate some more people to join in
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: yeap that aurora engine possible could be a better option
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: but a hard one also
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes but there is no gaurantee the people taking the money will provide good code either though
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: just look at the Fitted Mesh work that was done for the LL viewer
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: community raised 5000$
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: paid a dev, he did the work
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: and LL said no thanks
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: and everyone got screwed
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: so we need to make sure that doesnt happen
[12:10] Ubit Umarov: ( it does solve the stop of thread jobs )
[12:10] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: we arent answering to LL
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: Well we can hope that we will have better management.
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: thats why the core team needs to be involved
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: because unless you guys are talking about yet another fork which doesnt benefit the community
[12:10] Kayaker Magic: For example, starting on smaller projects would be good, go through a bunch of mantises
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: we all need to move forward together
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes money causes tension
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: forks end up killing all
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: and can fragment a community further than it already is
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: 2 many i mean
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: money is not always the answer
[12:11] James atLLOUD: I would not want to support another fork.
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: infact from my experience money just complicates things more
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: in a volunteer community
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: it causes rifts, people get I dont want to say Jealous
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: but they can feel slighted
[12:12] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: What i am saying..... is there is no need to panic, and you can easily be involved as little or as much as you desire to be in this project which will use funds to make open sim better for us all
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: because someone gets paid and they might not
[12:12] James atLLOUD: It does complicate things Neb. I NEVER lend money to people I care about. I give it.
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: but I think if we work together it can be way more effective
[12:12] stiofain mactomais: hope u care about me james
[12:12] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: agreed
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: and that is all I am trying to say
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: just make sure the core team stays aprised
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: early and often
[12:12] James atLLOUD: ha ha :)
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: make sure everyone stays aprised for that matter
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: lack of communication is the big thing that causes tension
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: when money is involved
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: look at all these failed kickstarter projects
[12:13] James atLLOUD: I do care stiofain - that's why I'm here when I should be workin' - lol
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: like 90% of kickstarter projects fail
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: even when they are 500% over their needs
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: money is not the magic pill
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but if its handled correctly it certainly can help
[12:15] James atLLOUD: Great point Neb. money can show support, but support is also commitment?
[12:15] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: one of the consistent things folks in this project bring up that needs to be addressed is, a structure system for open sim development now and sustainable structure for the future development
[12:15] Jim Jackson: what if certain groups or individuals are only pushing for the interests of specific commercial grids or ventures at the expense of everyone else? how do you safeguard against that? money has a way of doing that too
[12:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I welcome everyone here to become involved with this and help make this better sooner then later
[12:16] James atLLOUD: I'd also heard that facilitating communication between viewer teams and server teams should be examined.. re: 'forbidden to look at viewer code' comment earlier.
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think any grids are really doing that at this point though
[12:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: transparency ....... 100%
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: I think people may have perceived that to be a problem
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: but I personally dont think its every really been true
[12:16] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: so everyone, 100% of the time can see its not biased
[12:17] Ubit Umarov: james we can now look to viewer code, but we are not viewer devs
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: I am all for being as transparent as possible
[12:17] James atLLOUD: Ok ty Ubit
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: but you cant confuse lack of time for developers as not being transparent
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: most of the developers are insanely busy
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: communication between viewer teams is another issue
[12:18] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: no one has said that to me Neb
[12:18] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: the 'forbidden to look at viewer code' rule is lifted though - since quite a bit of time
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: and most of us are not only not getting paid, but are insanely in debt because of opensim
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:18] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I can imagine
[12:18] Ubit Umarov: i gave up tring to talk with viewer teams now
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: I do think a good goal of this commitee
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: would be to focus on a new viewer
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: and less on the core OpenSim code
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: atleast initially
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: to sort of break the ice
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: and get us moving forward
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: wether its the Halcyon viewer
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: which i personally think will not get us very far
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: i predict it will not live up to the hype
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: even slightly
[12:19] stiofain mactomais: the viewer part of that article was what interested me http://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.co.uk/2016/09/2016-oshg-opensim-what-it-will-take-to.html
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: but we definitely need a viewer
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: more than anything at this point
[12:20] James atLLOUD: in a sense a core viewer?
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: I think its good to see how far we can get with WebGL, but personally I just think its not good enough
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: we need something better
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: not to say we should never have a webGL viewer I just think there needs to be better expectations
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: i hear MOSES people saying "It will replace the SL Viewer 100%"
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: one should keep in mind that ll viewer is a lot better than ppl now say
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats just crazy talk right now
[12:21] Ubit Umarov: i mean the deeper engine..
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: I have been testing many platforms
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: not the last "cosmetic" changes
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: and still not found anything that can do what we do in the SL viewer
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: keep in mind it deals with dynamic contents
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: Unity can do some good stuff
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: if you're a professional video game designer
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:22] Ubit Umarov: all game engines work on static pre cooked contente
[12:22] James atLLOUD: so true
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: if you were to apply those same principles to the SL/OpenSim viewers, you would likely get just as far
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: maybe further
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: I think what most people dont realize is how heavy some of the OpenSim and SL builds are
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of textures and geometry loads
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: most engines like Unity and Unreal
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: couldnt even handle many of the models we do
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: not without major optimization
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: to the models
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: they don't work with dinamic content
[12:24] Ubit Umarov: have minor suport for it and... thats SLOWWWW
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya and WebGL forget it
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i am guessing that like 90% of opensim builds
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: are 100% unsuitable for any webgl viewer we could develop
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: someone would need to write some kind of conversion tool that strips out a ton of stuff
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: and does major optimizations
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: cant just throw a opensim region in webgl and call it a day
[12:25] Ubit Umarov: basicly following what ll did
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: you need to create very specific very optimized content
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: and count every triangle and pixel
[12:25] James atLLOUD: Again to the core devs here, how significant is the hypergrid to opensim?
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: thats not even talking about avatars
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: ( did at least up to a point.. )
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: getting all of our current avatars into WebGL
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: im not even sure that could ever happen
[12:26] Ubit Umarov: hypergrid is a major feature of opensim
[12:26] James atLLOUD: to me, the hypergrid is essential to opensim, but that may not be shared.
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: yea, but its good to talk about this stuff
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: we need to be realistic about goals
[12:27] Kayaker Magic: hypergrid is an important social connection we need to support
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: I think you guys should defiinitely present at OSCC if you can
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: just need to realize its going to take time and patience
[12:27] stiofain mactomais: HG is massively important to all users i know
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:28] George Equus: HG is essential I think
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: we cant just flip the table and expect everything to work perfectly
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: we are going on 10 years of development
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: it might take another 10
[12:29] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: one of the 1st objectives is to get a presentation for OSCC
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya great
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: I think thats Vital Don
[12:29] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: agreed
[12:29] James atLLOUD: wow - that's awesome when ya think of it. 10 years
[12:29] George Equus: Opensim ers are very patient
[12:30] George Equus: I don't mind waiting for a result as long as it delivers, ratger later than sooner...
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: I definitely am interested in seeing how things unfold Don, I am not trying to discourage anyone
[12:30] James atLLOUD: heh - hg safarians are very teleport patient.
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: my goal is just to keep everyone grounded at this point
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: I may come off as negative at times
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: but dont let that scare you off :)
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: I like the excitement though
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: its important we are all excited about this
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise whats the point
[12:31] James atLLOUD: agreed. I hesitated to type this, but I think it needs time, patience and love.
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: well I hate to chat and run, but I am really supposed to be working at the moment
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:32] James atLLOUD: me too - uff da.
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: but lets definitely keep this ball rolling
[12:32] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: ty all
[12:32] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: its just getting started =)
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: and if you can get into the #opensim-dev IRC channel
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: on Freenode
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: this is the best way to stay in touch with the core developers
[12:33] Kayaker Magic: Bye all, RL is calling...
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: just dont expect instantly response all the time
[12:33] George Equus: Thanks for all efforts made!
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: be sure to hang out always if you can
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: i alwyas have IRC open
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: so if you say my name "nebadon" in the chat there it will alert me
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: eventually I will see it
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: and try to get back to you
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: same for Ubit and misterblue (Robert Adams)
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: danbanner is always there too mostly
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: when he isnt working in RL
[12:34] James atLLOUD: Thanks for a great meeting. We didn't even mention all the commits from Ubit since the 20th.
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: yea Ubit is a patch tornado
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: careful you might get sucked in
[12:34] James atLLOUD: W00t!
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:34] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I am happy to chat with any of you anytime!
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: thanks Don
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: and Don something to think about
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: for people who are not so technically inclined to write code
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: but are familiar with the softweare
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: we need people to start stepping up on the Wiki
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: documenting
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: making sure the wiki is not too outdated
[12:35] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: documentation is also a top concern for many i have seen
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: so something perhaps you guys can get people into
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: its hard for us devs to keep people coordinated on that kind of things
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: we really need the community to step up more there
[12:36] James atLLOUD: I have offered to help on the wiki and will put energy there.
[12:36] James atLLOUD: If I can just stay connected to freenode! zrg
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:36] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: I truely believe a solid roadmap, structure, can be created by the combination of great minds working together on this project, with benefits for everyone
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: sure, I think its good you guys are stepping up, or that someone is anyway
[12:37] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: absolutely
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: the hard core developers are just too busy writing code
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: or chasing bugs
[12:38] James atLLOUD: I hypergrid several times a week and it's very easy to think everything is taken care of, opensim-wise.
[12:39] James atLLOUD: The current state is a pretty darn good experience.
[12:39] James atLLOUD: For the price!  :)
[12:39] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:39] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: lol
[12:40] Don.Smith @grid.kitely.com:8002: well said