Chat log from the meeting on 2016-07-05

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[10:58] Sheera Khan: May I ask if there are special considerations for running a 0.9 grid in regard to mono, kernel or settings?
[10:59] dan banner: sheera: i believe the requirements are the same
[11:00] Sheera Khan: Thank you Dan :-)
[11:05] Sheera Khan: Some Linux distributions still have Mono 4.2.1 in their repos. Is that reasonable or should I go for a homebrewn 4.4?
[11:05] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 4.4 will possibly give you much higher CPU use
[11:06] dan banner: sheera there's a mantis about mono that's newer than 4.0 that might affect things
[11:06] Jak Daniels: 4.4 is available from mono site I believe, already packaged
[11:06] Sheera Khan: I tried the repo by Mono-Project, but all I got was a 4.2.1 for CentOS
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: My apologies for not being here last week. A family member was out for the day so it resulted in my being away from the computer most of the day.
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm also dealing with some computer issues this past week. One of the two drives in the RAID array of my main computer died.
[11:08] Sheera Khan: O.o - not fun :-/
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, yea but since it is a RAID the other drive still has the data. I haven't lost anything.
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Its just costing time and the cost to replace the failed HD
[11:09] Sheera Khan: I'm glad for that but I'm nervous when that happens at the same time...
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: yea. I didn't know if it was just one drive that went bad or both
[11:09] Sheera Khan: one doesn't know how long the other disk will spin ^^
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: Well you should always have a good backup even if you have RAID
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I have an external plug-in drive for backups but there may be a file on it that I'd like to recover (if possible) before I update the backup so the backup isn't as current as usual.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: raid isn't necessarily the most reliable way to backup data, it's not really a backup at all
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: No, but in this case it really helped. One drive goes down and the other still has everything on it.
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:11] George Equus: Make an image, can be up and running in 15 min on a entirely new setup  :)
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm currently copying the main drive to the new one so I'm on my laptop using Radegast.
[11:11] Sheera Khan: RAID is not a backup - sure
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: images are good but also can be a pain
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if you need to restore just a single file
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ive been using OwnCloud to backup all my important files
[11:11] Kubwa.Hyper @hyperfur.net:3000: macrium reflect can restore a single file from an image
[11:12] Kubwa.Hyper @hyperfur.net:3000: you can mount that image as regular drive
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and every few weeks i rsync my files to a external drive as well
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: You can't copy that much data in 15 minutes. Even rsync of my main drive takes longer.
[11:12] George Equus: Easy done Neb, an image is essentially just a huge zip file
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea I suppose it depends on how you're imaging
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its good to have various methods of backups though
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: yup.
[11:13] George Equus: I Use a bit archaic? maybe software, called Image for DOS, never failed me
[11:13] dan banner: i'm still using floppys ;p
[11:13] Kubwa.Hyper @hyperfur.net:3000: i am normally blocking write processes to my mysql database and then using xcopy to copy the complete opensim/database partition
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: George, I'm not running Windows.
[11:13] Kubwa.Hyper @hyperfur.net:3000: it works well
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to backup to 4mm DAT tapes ages ago but I had problem where the tape drives would die.
[11:14] George Equus: does not matter Andrew you can run whatever you like
[11:14] Kubwa.Hyper @hyperfur.net:3000: opensim has no problem with locked tables, thanks for that :)
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Never had a problem with the tapes.
[11:14] Jak Daniels: rdiff-backup is good on linux for making full then incremental backups fast
[11:14] George Equus: If DOS lives in the RAM while working
[11:14] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev 259824f: 2016-07-04 09:13:20 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:14] Jak Daniels: uses rsync algorithms
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i even use rsync on windows
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: to backup
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: with msys
[11:15] Jak Daniels: yeah rsync is my goto tool of choice for most types of file copy and archive tasks
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I may look at incremental backups. I've lost an 8 page document. Now idea how/when it went missing. I've an inode on my backup drive that has the name of the file in it but that's as far as I've gotten trying to get it back.
[11:16] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'm backing up to ibackup.com + server backups are running every hour
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: No idea if the inode has the info to get the file back or if that is the only sign the file ever existed.
[11:17] Sheera Khan: funny - as the inode usually doesn't contain the filename ...
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't like the idea of using backups to places on the Internet when you have files that may contain passwords. Sites on the internet get broken in to now. That type of offsite backup isn't something one could consider that secure.
[11:18] vegaslon plutonian just use synctoy accross 3 computers and current projects go onto google drive
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: It would be nice having something like the old Norton Utilities but for Linux. :)
[11:18] Jak Daniels: there's no way I could back up to the internet from here, not with my internet connection!
[11:18] Sheera Khan: debugfs ^^
[11:19] dan banner: ya the original norton was handy
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ibackup. com provieds fully encrypted backups. You do of course have to have local copies too
[11:19] George Equus: I have nothing outside of my own hardware. Would never even consider making a backup to "the cloud" myself
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, not sure if its an inode or what but something was found that mentioned the name of the file.
[11:19] dan banner: i haven't used norton for 20+ years now since they ruined it
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: there is a super handy boot disc you can get
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: Hirens Boot CD
[11:19] dan banner: ya hirens is cool
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, yup. Got it on a USB stick.
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.hirensbootcd.org/download/
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: yea its easy to make a boot USB for it as well
[11:20] George Equus: sound bit like Image for DOS, You boot with that and remove the stick, then start the backup process
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: I tried all the tools they provided and some others and nothing helped. I may have done other backups to the external drive since the file got deleted. I can recreate the file. It's just I had gotten the info in to a really good shape.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: Hirens is like 5000 tools
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:20] George Equus: On windows, Mac, Linux Unix whatever
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: It was just a file that told me everything I need to do on my machine when I do a fresh install of Linux in a nice orderly fashion.
[11:21] dan banner: ahh setup documentation
[11:22] dan banner: nice to have
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: All the files to copy from the previous root partition, all the drivers that need to be installed, and all the programs I normally use that need to be reinstalled. Lets me get back up and running fully again in hours instead of days.
[11:22] George Equus: Hiren look like a nice toolbox
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: it's a must have
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Due to my computer issues I haven't been following OS development this past week.
[11:23] Jak Daniels: store it in github if you get it back.... then you have version control as well as your install changes ;)
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Well last night I upgraded OSgrid back end Robust servers to the latest code
[11:23] dan banner: hirens is one of those things you hope you never need but nice to have when you do
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: there was a pretty major refactor of Inventory stuff done by Melanie
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Jak, I still had the version I created when I installed Mint 17. The lost doc was when I updated to 17.2
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and some HTTP server fixes in there as well
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie, Diva and Ubit have been busy
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have that running too without any big issues
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to create the new one for 17.3. The doc for 17 I have printed just in case something should happen to that file. :)
[11:24] Jak Daniels: everything loaded super quick for me on Wright plaza today and using Replex still
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: yes, there has been a lot of activity in the last couple of weeks.
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes if your running latest Sim code now Inventory downloads a lot faster
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it went from like 5-6 minutes for me for 50k items
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: to like 40 seconds or so
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: even here on this region
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: A list of issues to be worked on before an 0.9 release was created, added to, and many of the items have already been crossed off as having been fixed.
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:25] George Equus: I have a hard time managing 10K items lol...
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:26] Jak Daniels: My inv is too big to 'manage' now lol
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: well its 3279 days of accumulation here for me :P
[11:26] dan banner: i found that setting ImagePipelineUseHTTP to false has actually helped my inv load quicker too maybe it's because there is less overhead for http
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: George: Three words: folders, sub-folders, and sub-sub-folders  :)
[11:26] dan banner: i'm still using http for inv
[11:26] Jak Daniels: didn't Ubit request that to be off in Firestorm for Opensim anyway?
[11:26] George Equus: Yes indeed Andrew
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: I have noticed that region textures seem to download a lot faster with Firestorm than Singularity
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: though i only really notice it here where there is 1000s of textures
[11:26] dan banner: yes jak
[11:27] George Equus: And sensible naming on stuff
[11:27] dan banner: region textures seem to download fine in sing 1.8.6
[11:27] Robert Adams: there have been problems with scheduling multiple, parallel HTTP requests on both sides of the connection
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: yea they download fine in 1.8.7 too
[11:28] Jak Daniels: is that setting in Prefs or in Debug for Replex.... anyone know?
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: There is one issue on the 0.9 to do list that I'd like to see addressed as I think it could impact a number of people but its marked as low priority. No idea how easy it would be to fix it.
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: its just FS is much faster
[11:28] Robert Adams: which one is that, Andrew?
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: yea Ubit mentioned last night
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: that Singulairty default is 3 parallel
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: and FS is 8
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: so that is probably why
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: one of the reasons why it seems faster anyway
[11:29] dan banner: can that be adjusted neb?
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: I think so its a debug setting
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i dont know which though
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: The one with lots of prim content. When you get in to prims with close to 100 (or more) items in prim inventory it can be very slow to work with the prim contents.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: if you search for parallel might come up
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: As I make and use texture viewers where I could have hundreds of textures in a prim it directly impacts me.
[11:30] dan banner: andrew: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7904
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no it doesnt, ya would have to ask Ubit
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: he probably can tell you
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, That looks like the issue.
[11:31] Jak Daniels: does setting ImagePipelineUseHTTP to false switch texture loading back to UDP?
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Issue #7872 (CHANGED_OWNER not triggering on a change of ownership) is another issue of interest to me as a seller of items.
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does
[11:33] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it is set to true it will use http texture fetch, otherwise UDP
[11:34] Jak Daniels: I would have thought http would have been better.... oh well
[11:34] Sheera Khan: but there was a reason to switch over from UDP to HTTP/TCP though
[11:34] Sheera Khan: I guess it depends on your router ...
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: when you go around grids, not all have textures served over http
[11:35] Sheera Khan: some didn't handle UDP traffic well
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: opensims http server is not the greatest
[11:35] Jak Daniels: but anyway... that setting is for textures not inventory
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it also depends if the texture is already cached in the region server
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if they are, fetching via UDP can be very fast
[11:36] Jak Daniels: i guess inv might load more slowly if textures are also creating many http connections at the same time
[11:36] Sheera Khan: couldn't one use a nginx or squid reverse proxy?
[11:36] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can
[11:38] dan banner: jak: that's what i noticed
[11:38] dan banner: my inv loads faster when i set textures to load over udp
[11:38] Jak Daniels: I guess when logging in there is much inv and textures to load... all from the http server....
[11:38] Jak Daniels: so moving textures to udp will lighten the load on http I guess
[11:39] dan banner: that's what i'm thinking
[11:39] dan banner: theres no other connection between the two that i see
[11:39] Jak Daniels: both are served by the same opensim http process?
[11:39] Sheera Khan: but what type of internet connection is supposed to saturate a HTTP-server?
[11:39] Jak Daniels: (or multiple threads of)...?
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: http textures are served via a separate robust
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not from the region server
[11:40] Robert Adams: could be the simulator's HTTP server is not good at multiple connections
[11:40] Robert Adams: the UDP path has probably seen more performance tuning
[11:41] Jak Daniels: http is one of those protocols that some ISPs mess with too.... limiting this and that...
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless you have content delivery network (CDN), it is probably better so serve textures from the region server
[11:41] Sheera Khan: just a moment - what does the region cache exist for? I thought it would also deliver the textures...
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It does if your viewer does not ask for thextures via http
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such as the one SecondLife use
[11:42] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in a CDN the server that is closest to you usually deliver the content
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: closest geograpically and ping time
[11:43] Robert Adams: if you have some extra money, you could use Akami or S3 :)
[11:43] Jak Daniels: that means giving the viewer a different URL to the textures rather than to the region server?
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is served via caps configured in robust
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to the viewer
[11:44] Jak Daniels: ok yes
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: standalones don't have the option of serving any content via http
[11:45] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: as far as I know
[11:46] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: and SL is moving away from UDP and hence the viewer too I suppose ...
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: SL will turn off UDP later this summer
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Is the content served by http handled by region instances or Robust?
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Robust
[11:46] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: so we better get our HTTP in shape then ^^
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That's why you can't have that work in Standalones.
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we are making an OS version of Kokua that still has UDP support
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: otherwise it would not work on standalones and many small grids
[11:48] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: that's very nice - but wouldn't it be better in the long term to get HTTP to run better?
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, Could you also check and make sure the viewer won't lock up if you were playing a stream and the stream stops suddenly or changed in About Land? :)
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: replacing the HTTP is a major overhaul
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: http on mono is very slow
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it would have to be based on Apache to get a boost in performance
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is a major job
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: remember SL does not run on mono
[11:49] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: ok, now I understand the problem a bit better, ty :-)
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I dont necessarily think C# is the problem there
[11:49] Jak Daniels: I always thought textures came through the region server which requests them from a grid's robust and then cached them there.... but my understanding of that side of things is limited and probably wrong
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I'll have to test that Andrew
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i just think the HTTP server we use is not so great
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: im not even sure its in C# anyway
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It does when they are served UDP
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not if served http
[11:50] Jak Daniels: ah ok, that makes sense. ty
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, thanks. When I get back up and running so I can run viewers again I can test and see if it happens in Kokua. It is a problem in Sing. It will lock up the viewer.
[11:51] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: but a separate HTTP proxy should remedy that http over mono problem, right?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't the HTTP server from libOMV?
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think we have fixed a lot of code to handle audio streams lately
[11:51] dan banner: my singularity rarely locks up on stream change
[11:51] Jak Daniels: it's recently been updated hasn't it?
[11:51] Jak Daniels: http server I mean
[11:51] dan banner: yes jak
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, The Linux version often does with the 1.8.6 release of Sing
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=tree&p=opensim-libs&h=ca27379f5128aec5e67b816e2f3a00de7d3aed12&hb=ffcd3c62d9d169e0c2fe4e20c35d0433a2b4effb&f=HttpServer
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: I can have someone help me test that situation with Kokua and I can file a bug report if I can reproduce the issue in Kokua.
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, opensim-libs. Ok.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea the http server we had is no longer a maintained project
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: and replacing it is not a simple task at all
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, Anything new and exciting (or even not so exciting) in the world of physics or in the issues you wanted to look at in OpenSIM?
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: there are a lot of hacks and tweaks in opensim to make due of the deficiencies in this package
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: just dropping in something new would not go smoothly
[11:55] Robert Adams: nothing exciting... I'm finally able to get around to looking into the CPU usage... hope to have that figured out in a few days
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: that would be awesome
[11:56] Jak Daniels: yea I can understand that :) Potential for much stuff breaking
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, it would simplify things a bit if OS could use one of the standard, light, web servers.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: those changes will be applied to bulletXNA to you think Robert?
[11:56] dan banner: just for bulletsim or for opensim in general?
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, great. Several people here will be glad to see that issue addressed.
[11:57] Bill Windwalker: Is any one working on standards for import of ojects using Z up and down and Y front to back and X right to left for HIFI has mess it up by basing it on maya ? And it be great is a viewer has a way of picking import setting. or am I crazy ?
[11:58] Robert Adams: I don't know why it would be using more CPU since the base binary (the BulletSim DLL/SO) is the same... there must be something muddled up in the merged code....
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, Orientation of X/Y/Z between OS and modelling programs is an issue. I ran in to it when moving models between Rhino and Blender.
[11:58] Jak Daniels: Make sure to export with Z_UP
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you have to rotate the model for now :-)
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: That's what I do when I get the model in to Blender.
[11:58] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and apply the transform before export of DAE
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, or rotate it before the import.
[11:59] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: unless you are going ot set sit targets or use it a light source, it hardly matters
[11:59] vegaslon plutonian: or have particles come out of it
[12:00] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: particles too
[12:00] Bill Windwalker: Yes I was looking at blender and sketchup is the two programs that work better with opensim
[12:00] Bill Windwalker: may be water physics will be next ?
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: Water physics would require major viewer changes
[12:01] Bill Windwalker: I see some layer code in opensim and the viewers that may do it
[12:02] Bill Windwalker: its just not link in to the water layer
[12:02] vegaslon plutonian: the server actually should not need to do anything with water physics only needs a viewer to do it
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... splashable water that doesn't need scripts and animated textures would be nice.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: well that depends vegaslon
[12:02] Bill Windwalker: yep
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: if you wanted vehicles to interact properly with the viewer physics
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it would need to be done server side
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: for everyone to see the same thing
[12:03] Bill Windwalker: that's why I did say server and viewer ;)
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: We don't even have everyone seeing the same version of region terrain. :)
[12:03] Jak Daniels: surely it could be done server side only...
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: well you can do terrain in mesh though
[12:04] Jak Daniels: if avatar>ground height and avatar<water height at current position, use different gravity constant ;)
[12:04] Bill Windwalker: terrain can be fix on viewer side with a simple call for terrain data
[12:05] vegaslon plutonian: ah there is some floating code already that works off water it just does not do waves or anything
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, yes, but I can't think of anyone else besides you who has been doing that.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I'm talking about the texture seen on the region terrain.
[12:05] Bill Windwalker: I was messing with terrain size and fog and lighting to see what I can do befor I crashed it all
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: I thought that was fixed
[12:06] Jak Daniels: It would be nice to be able to tell the physics engine a list of prims/mesh that are ground so that llGround et all work properly
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: the random terrain texture thing
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Was it?
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: I could have sworn it was
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but maybe its not all viewers are fixed either
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to check that using an alt some time.
[12:06] Bill Windwalker: only problem I seen with texture was firestorm making errors
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. It needed changes in the viewer to support it?
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: it was a problem in SL too
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but i swore they addressed it
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, ok. That would be an issue.
[12:07] Robert Adams: that would be cool, Jak... I always wanted to implement mesh terrain also
[12:07] Jak Daniels: I've been meaning to mention it to you for ages :)
[12:07] Bill Windwalker: yes do not get me started on how poor SL is when it comes to viewer coding and server dirty data
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Blender has a terrain generator feature in it. You could use it to generate a terrain and export that as DAE
[12:08] Jak Daniels: I use a lot of L3DT terrains...
[12:08] vegaslon plutonian: ideally if the terrain is not too crazy just send a height map of it and have a really high height in it mean the terrain has a hole there
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Jak, right. That's a good program for generating terrains.
[12:08] Bill Windwalker: you can use blender to gen. a hight map too
[12:09] Jak Daniels: I always have to make the real ground hug the mesh just underneath it for stuff like that to work properly
[12:09] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: One last question if I may - is there a digested (shortened) version of the changelog for the current status of 0.9 available?
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, not yet.
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: That's someting I need to get back to working on.
[12:11] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: I could use it right now ;-)
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, I only have 2,000 lines or so left to go through. After that, I have to look at the change log entries since the code merge.
[12:11] dan banner: thats been growing everyday now too
[12:12] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: and the recent activity is adding to it too ^^
[12:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, IM an email address or other means to contact you, or IM me in IRC. I could post a version of what I've done so far in a wiki I have.
[12:12] Bill Windwalker: Just what ever you do please do not copy the way SL is going
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: Sheera I know its not perfect but you can look through viewgit
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: it makes looking at git logs easier
[12:13] Andrew Hellershanks: The problem with summarizing the changes is that the changelog entries don't really tell you the impact of some of the changes.
[12:13] Bill Windwalker: git logs ?
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: there are probably at least a 1000+ changes though
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[12:13] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: it doesn't have to be purrfect - just better then a printout of all those git-lines ^^
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya its going to be tough for 0.9
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: This commit makes a change to blah but then you don't know from the log entry why it was done or what impact it has on some part of the code from a user or grid owner point of view
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: because of the gigantic Avination merge
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it's probably one of the most drastic changes between versions we have ever experienced
[12:14] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev 259824f: 2016-07-04 09:13:20 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[12:14] Bill Windwalker: be glad its not Gcode on a slicer system
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Sheera, I've separated out the changes in to at least a dozen categories.
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it's literally years of work
[12:14] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: and some git comments aren't that helpful at all ^^
[12:14] Jak Daniels: and the results of cumulative changes to the same bit of code over the development period....
[12:15] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: but it is a work appreciated by me ...
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, and several hours just to go through it all and try to summarize the changes.
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: here you go
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.9.0.0_Release
[12:16] Bill Windwalker: automation may be of code error checking ?
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: this is a start Sheera
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: its likely incomplete though
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: yea very incomplete
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: but that is where it will be eventually
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: you can follow it
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: get updates
[12:17] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: incomplete is better than a raw printout of git comments ^^
[12:17] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: ty Nebadon :-)
[12:17] Jak Daniels: hehe... need to add a mention of the changes to 'load oar' in the Archives section...
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea if there is anything obvious you guys are aware of
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: and have some extra time, please start updating this document
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: help is super appreciated
[12:18] Bill Windwalker: I will say one thing OSGrid opensim system works way better then HIFI world will ever work
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: Bill it really comes down to your level of expertise and how you are hosting it
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: i host many Wifi grids, IE: OSCC Grid, Avacon Grid, Encitra grid
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid runs well because its hosted on super fast servers and super fast network
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: running from home is not always ideal conditions
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: companies like Comcast and Verizon are not optimized for running servers
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: unless you go up to their Business Class
[12:20] dan banner: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.9_Bug_List
[12:20] Bill Windwalker: HIFI has a nice base to start on but when it comes to how the VR code works with servers to home PC's its a horror show
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: even then its nothing compared to a professional Data center like Limestone or University of Californias data center
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: well even running a basic Apache webserver is not ideal from a home connection
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: and in some cases is actually against your ISP's TOS
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: and while they rarely enforce it
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: they definitely are not optimized to do it
[12:21] Bill Windwalker: HIFI with home sandbox has a large problem with network timing
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, yeah. Some ISPs say you aren't allowed to run your own servers on their network connections
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: and most residential off the shelf routers suck at it too
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: especially the one your ISP provides you
[12:22] dan banner: i think they all say that somewhere in the fine print
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: They do unless you arrange for a business class connection which allows them to charge you more.
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: ideally it would be nice for novices to be able to run their own high end 3D world from their home machine
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but unfortunately that will always require a bit of expertise to do it right
[12:23] dan banner: heh ya i looked at comcast business and the upload speed is the same as residential
[12:23] Bill Windwalker: I run a biz server line but east coast is so Tech poor its still 2003 to the west coast 2017
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: I can't complain about my Comcast line here in New Jersey
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i get about 180mbps down stream and about 15mbps upstream
[12:24] dan banner: ya works good for me too in texas
[12:24] dan banner: about the same
[12:24] Jak Daniels: 10x faster than my poor DSL lol
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: i've had 20 people or so connected to regions hosted here at my house
[12:24] Bill Windwalker: yes I have comcast biz line in CT but I have to pipe it in from boston
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: if you have ever visited Cuteulala Park here on OSGrid
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: that is hosted on an old OSgrid server in my basement
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: the old Asset server
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: That's the region with the awesome roller coaster.
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I so want to have a copy of that coaster or at least figure out more how it was done.
[12:26] Bill Windwalker: you do know part of second life assets system is open to public without password
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: Cuteulala has most of it shared
[12:26] dan banner: andrew the scripts it uses are on the osgrid forums
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: I think the only thing she didnt share was the waypoint generator
[12:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, Oh. I haven't seen where and she hasn't told me when I tried to contact her about it.
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: http://forums.osgrid.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5372
[12:27] Bill Windwalker: waypoint generator is not hard to get I have seen it on the sl servers
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if this is the latest
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, dan: ok, ty. I'll have a look some time once I've gotten my machine back up in good shape again.
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: im sure if you ask her directly she will tell you
[12:27] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: http://forums.osgrid.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5372&hilit=roller+coaster
[12:27] dan banner: andrew: http://forums.osgrid.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5372
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, thanks everyone. :)
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt she will definitely be around a lot at the OSG9B parties and stuff
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I usually miss the OSGB's.
[12:28] Bill Windwalker: I'm glad I was not too late this time
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: just a few weeks away
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: we will try to remind everyone as it gets closer
[12:28] dan banner: ya tons of participants this year
[12:28] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, and next I know it will have been a week or two back. :)
[12:29] Sheera.Khan @metrotest.hypergrid.org:8002: we can do a field trip during our weekly meeting and take you with us ^^
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:29] Bill Windwalker: I am working on my part :) about real life importing data to osgrid and then back to gcode to 3d printer
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Since we are talking about it do you dan, or nebadon, want to say anything about it for those here and for those reading the meeting notes?
[12:30] Bill Windwalker: just call me crazy
[12:30] dan banner: ya don't forget to come, there are 4 var regions full of exhibits and there is two days of entertainment scheduled for july 30 & 31 at event plaza
[12:31] Bill Windwalker: oh very nice
[12:31] Jak Daniels: is there a page or two on the osgrid website about it?
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya there must be at least 100+ people involved this year
[12:31] dan banner: the number of exhibits this year has exceeded any previous OSG9B
[12:31] Bill Windwalker: Nebadon will you have a plot ?
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: I do not have a plot this year, i have been way to busy with work
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: but there are tons of great exhibits this year
[12:32] dan banner: you could spend hours walking around
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: I havent done much new stuff in the last year so i figured better to let someone else show their new stuff
[12:32] Bill Windwalker: I hope no one will get bored from what I am doing
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: instead of me just showing the same things over and over again :)
[12:33] dan banner: OSG9BN OSG9BS OSG9BW and OSG9BE
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, four regions isn't too bad. SL just had their birthday celebrations which usually means about 21 regions to explore
[12:33] Bill Windwalker: i'm on one of them places
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: ours are Var regions
[12:34] dan banner: ya but these are vars
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: so I think technically the area is similar
[12:34] dan banner: so like 16 region equivelents
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: yea and thats not including the Stage Var
[12:34] dan banner: 25 if you count event plaza lol
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:35] dan banner: and way less lag at OSGB
[12:35] Bill Windwalker: the only part of SL I do miss is some of my friends that are tiny's in raglan shire and my tiny avatars I paid for
[12:36] dan banner: 16+9
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Bill, I have some friends that are only in SL so that is one of the few reasons I still drop in there on occasion.
[12:36] Bill Windwalker: the rest of SL was a pain in the ass with greedy shitty thinking people
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: well I need to run guys, technically I should actually be working on a model
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: i have 3 big projects im wrapping up over the next 4-6 weeks
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: It is well past the hour so about time to wrap up this weeks meeting.
[12:37] Bill Windwalker: I have stopped going to SL after another friend has passed away
[12:38] Bill Windwalker: im working on OBJ to Gcode converter
[12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: If there aren't any other last minute comments I'll be heading out too.

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