Chat log from the meeting on 2016-04-12

[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll be back in a few minutes
[11:05] George Equus: 10 sec chat lag....
[11:05] George Equus: sometimes lol
[11:06] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: am i lagging the sim?
[11:06] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: no Jeff, like that when I arrived
[11:07] George Equus: Region is bit slow tonight
[11:07] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: .
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: This viewer is bad here
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lag
[11:08] George Equus: What viewer do you use? FS is fine
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes i know, this viewer i replace for FS
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ALchemy
[11:08] George Equus: Ahh.. don't know that one, stick to FS
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: never been here. and i get Unknown UserUMMAU42:
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: not seen it much with singularity
[11:09] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: so much stuff on this region, probably not surprising something goes wonky
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Im in the progress to change some workflows. not done with viewer shuffle
[11:09] George Equus: Very rarely see Unknown
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it's the first time in at least 1 year now
[11:10] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: probably should move the meeting location off the commercial area
[11:10] George Equus: Think something on osg have changed, my console stopped spewing Timeout in bunches past 24 h
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: This where done to get a better stress test
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[11:10] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: i'm stressed
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I wish viewers didn't keep messing with menus. I couldn't find the entry to set away status. :P
[11:11] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: viewers love to shuffle menus
[11:11] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a project to simplify Kokua
[11:11] George Equus: Not FS though, pretty stable on that
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I'm on Kokua now. Where did the Set Away menu get hidden?
[11:12] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Spill the beans Gavin
[11:12] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: a reason why i not like singularity anymore. it's so different
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: View -> Status -> Away
[11:13] George Equus: FS added stuff in latest version but no shuffling of the menu items that I could see
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, finally found it. View -> Status -> Away. :P
[11:13] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not very logical I admit
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: most V3 viewers are pretty the same with the menu's. preference is other thing btw
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, it is a logic known only to the programmer who placed it there.
[11:14] George Equus: Problem with FS is all config options..
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh, under alchemy it's under 'me'
[11:14] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: query?? Re FSAssets.. someone said they are using FSAssets with 0.8.2 if I recall FSAssets was not included in core until 0.8.3 / 0.9.0 especially some updates.
[11:14] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It should be under me
[11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Lift unknown and looks. nope not see it :)
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: What's new and exciting this week?
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have upgraded XMIR to run the latest dev 0.9 code with Postgres and region crossings works after a patch was taken to change the generictablehandler
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Yesterday evening I was going through the wiki pages and updating and reformatting the database documentation.
[11:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: In the progress to start 0.9 grid and build
[11:17] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that patch is in Mantis, but is not commited to master
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, There are a few PostgreSQL patches of yours that need to be applied. I've been dealing with some other projects so I haven't finished dealing with those reports.
[11:19] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: exactly :-)
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there has also been some back and forth on a commit Diva pushed that changed some MySQL tables
[11:20] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am not sure exactly if that will be reversed or not
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, there were four reports. Have you filed any other reports with patches that need to be looked at?
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the problem is that MySQL is not case sensitive, while it is on Linux / OS X
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is one not made by me
[11:21] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: let me find the number for you
[11:21] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Tested Standalone with core Profiles, after the first login the sim become unstable with file lock issues. I have fixed the problem but then that exposed other issues which are currently being investigated
[11:22] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7805
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: There was some commits related to the names of a few tables. The changes were to correct bugs in the DB migration when old migrations were dropped and a new starting point was set.
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: 7805? Hm... ok. I have earlier and later ones listed. I'll add that to the others.
[11:23] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but the problem was they introduce case sensitivity in the tables between operating systems, so all table and column names should be lowercase
[11:23] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I am testing SQLite config to be complete
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, that's not going to happen. It will break a lot of existing installations.
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: or require a lot of DB migrations.
[11:24] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but it needs to be fixed over time
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Lower case names would have to be used if you want to be consistent. Trying to rename the asset table to have an uppercase letter in the name would cause issues for people with lots of data in that table.
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think that is what I said, use lowercase all over
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup
[11:26] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and it can be folded to lowercase in the table handlers to isolate the issue from the rest of the code
[11:27] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Large grids are an Achilles heel towards database management on opensim
[11:27] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: open connect grids are a nightmare
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cause you have no idea what people connect with
[11:28] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: grids like Kitely can be managed relativelly easilly
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: What is it about Kitely grid that makes it any easier to manage it vs. other grids?
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they have like SL rolling updates
[11:29] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all servers go to same version
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for open connect grids they can attach anything, so changes on the core servers may impact many
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: That's not a feature unique to Kitely.
[11:31] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the distinction is open connect, vs managed grids
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: By managed grids you means ones that are not HG enabled?
[11:32] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, I mean where someone manage all the servers on the grid (including the simulators) and upgrade them
[11:32] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, grids that own all servers by themself
[11:33] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: What are the obstacles to encrypting inter-grid comms, cost of public/private key acquisition?
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.I get what you are saying.
[11:33] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev ed9d4fe: 2016-04-05 22:53:27 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, there can be a real world dollar cost to obtaining keys or certificates in order to have secure comms.
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi billy
[11:35] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Moses announced availability of the PhysX engine for 0.8.2
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, It is possible to generate ones own keys and/or create self-signed certificiates. You always have to consider whether you can trust the signing authority that was used.
[11:37] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Yes Andrew, but is it prohibitive.. would never be considered
[11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dont think physx is usefull on server in datacenter
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yes, that was mentioned on the mailing list. They haven't provided a link to the actual code yet but it should be made available soon.
[11:37] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Verisign is something like $250 per annun, but guessing there
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Friday I think they said
[11:38] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will be interesting to see what it does
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes i have seen the post too
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, yes it will be interesting to see what they have done and how feature complete it is.
[11:39] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Info: For our SL region LL have offered for a one off $600 payment to reduced annual renewal by $1k
[11:40] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Sorry $1k2
[11:40] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Have anyone else observed higher CPU use with 0.9 and Bulletsim? I see consistently 10-15% higher for idle sims
[11:40] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhuh. still to expensive compared to opensim where you can have a server for >10$ and up
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not again the complains about more cpu use ?
[11:41] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Gavin, is that with prims set physics active?
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: we did hear that with bulletsim before too
[11:41] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a good mix
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, yes. That was to get a grandfathered reduction in tier. That's a lot to fork over at one time to get the reduction. You would have to be pretty sure about your long term use of SL to want to pay that.
[11:42] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you only get profit after 6 months
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It was not a complaint, but an observation :-))
[11:43] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: We only renew annually, so it is win win for us
[11:43] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My take on the LL price thingy is: 6 months from now, isn't that just about when Ebbe has said the Sansar beta will be announced? – Which is about the time the SL land business will collapse IMHO.
[11:43] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: dunno
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I dont think sansar is so a big wow in few months.
[11:44] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no, but it will make everyone sit on the fence once it is in beta
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes, shaking the can with SL residents a few time. i know
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I've never owned land in SL. It was just too expensive. I was lucky to know some people with land who let me use some of their space.
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i just crawl away from the fence. first build in opensim. but in a way that what i make can be reused in the new things
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Really, i do not expect much before next sumemr or later that get interesting. anyway, they not talked about costs
[11:46] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: first public beta should be in about 6 months, invite beta before that
[11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup, anyway. mac users are already upset and say i dont go.. well the can't !
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: meh
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:47] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can always run Windows in a virtual machine
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: then apple still have poor hardware. that can be a problem mabye
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think we will see the first announcement from Apple on VR at the WWDC this summer
[11:48] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but it won't be like Occulus
[11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But, do you want to be in LL hands and USA country and have no control ?
[11:49] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Sansar without mobile support will be DOA
[11:49] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Info: Windows 10 has included Ubuntu with the latest build, I can compile on VS and run in linux. Have to use SQLite at present as there are some issues with MYSql
[11:50] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think you need to read the ARStechnica report on that
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Billy, I keep wondering if it means that Ubuntu will be subject to all the security issues of the underlying Windows system.
[11:51] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I don't need to I am running it now
[11:51] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the yes, but it cannot communicate with any Windows processes?
[11:51] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: It is intended as a development environment, not production
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, you would not be able to use pipes but you could connect over a network connection.
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, well
[11:52] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:53] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Also, RedHat collaberation to include .NET into their distribution should appear in the next few months
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm puzzled as to why MS have made changes that let (parts of?) Ubuntu run natively in Windows.
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TBH it is a desperate move to try and pull android developers in
[11:54] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: No need to speculate.. https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2016/03/30/run-bash-on-ubuntu-on-windows/
[11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Because developers now can run windows and still work on software for there server park that is mostly linux
[11:54] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they tried something similar with Objective-C for iOS developers
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I have been able to use BASH under Windows for a long time.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I was using it under Windows XP via MinGW/MSYS
[11:55] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Not the same Andrew
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: That link says "run bash on ubuntu on windows".
[11:57] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Bash as a console interface, this is a linux sub system
[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Anyway, heading home
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: If it is about making *nix programs more portable to Windows without use of cygwin or MinGW that could be useful.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... about that time again. The hour is about up.
[11:57] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: bye everyone and thanks!
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Anyone want to talk about anything else regarding OpenSim before we wrap things up for today?
[11:58] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: btw, the meeting was @ 1800 UTC, not 1900 UTC as mentioned on the wiki
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Jeff, which meeting?
[12:00] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: this one
[12:00] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: or i am wrong ?
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: This one is at same time its always been. Has your local clocks changed recently?
[12:00] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: hmmm no, it's 1900UTC now
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: For me, the clocks advanced an hour a few weeks back. This meeting started at 1800UTC. It is now 1900.
[12:01] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: agree
[12:01] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: UTC has no timezone
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: correct.
[12:02] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: i know, that's unsolvable ;)
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: That's a good thing that it has no timezone.
[12:03] Jeff.Kelley @88.161.20.136:9000: ok, gotta go; have a nice day
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: um... not timezone but no time saving thing.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: That wraps things up for another week. Take care everyone.