Chat log from the meeting on 2016-02-02

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[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: I am on the phone 1 moment
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: sorry im on phone doing tech support co-worker has malware or something
[11:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Hows tricks?
[11:11] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Shoot, I don't know any tricks. lol.
[11:11] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I bet :)
[11:11] Sheera Khan: Trees don't really need no tricks ..
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: how is everyone doing?
[11:12] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Wish there was an easier way to include new grid logins to a viewer, some people I have from SL just don't get it
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: I am bouncing between here and phone
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: ooh... nice avatar, Serene
[11:13] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Poor Nebadon.  Looks so dejected when he slumps over like that.
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: dealing with tech support for someone who may have malware, the pose seems appropriate. :)
[11:13] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Awww. Thanks. The tree avatar is one of the free ones at the Francogrid Avatar region. They make cool stuff.
[11:13] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: That unknown user think is kind of spooky, only effect some people and not always the same user
[11:14] Sheera Khan: that's right...
[11:14] Sheera Khan: I'm  a bit used to see it sometimes
[11:14] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yeah, I usually have a big problem with the unknown user thing, but today I can see everyone's names.  Go figure.
[11:14] Sheera Khan: mostly in OSGrid...
[11:14] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I normally return to base, clear cache then things seem ok, but then another user arrives and they are unknown
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: only suggest to tyake some distance from capfires
[11:14] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: So is this region running 0.9?
[11:15] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yes
[11:15] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: here is running dev master
[11:15] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Is Unknown User bug due to server or viewer or both?
[11:16] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: no idea, seems like a timing thing.. no consistant
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought the Unknown User thing had been fixed.
[11:16] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: all names here appear ok for me .. today
[11:17] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: seems to have returned under certain circumstances
[11:17] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Sheera, you were having the Unknown User? Which viewer are you using?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ok back
[11:17] Sheera Khan: I'm using FS 4.7.5
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: scan will take 20 minutes they will call me later
[11:17] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: FS for me
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya that unknown user thing is a hypergrid problem
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: this viewer was not designed for hypergrid
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: so far no one has been able to fix it
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: cache clear would fix it
[11:18] Sheera Khan: and yes, our OpenSim Developer is still an Andrew Hellershanks for me
[11:18] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: good to know lol
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I see andrew
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: anyone seeing unknown will have to clear cache and relog
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: that would fix it
[11:18] Sheera Khan: Ah Andrew :-)
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: one of those annoying bugs no one has figured out yet
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: we spent a lot of time trying to fix it
[11:19] Kayaker Magic kommt in Chat-Reichweite (7.05 m).
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: there are many ways it can happen unfortunately
[11:19] Sheera Khan: I'll do that later - it would take quite a while to log in back here ...
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: mostly because of how the viewer cache works
[11:19] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Could it have something to do with the region you are hypergridding from? Sheera is the only one I see here from hypergrid.org for example.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: do you have an example of one way that can cause the problem?
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: it just happens it can happen anywhere at any time really
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hypergrid by nature is a bit hackish
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we are making the viewer do things it was never designed to do
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully as we see new viewers and protocols emerge
[11:21] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: hmm
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that can be resolved better
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its unlikely we can ever really truly fix that bug with the LL protocols
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: maybe but it probably will require viewer fixes too
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: which is quite difficult to achieve anymore
[11:22] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: New viewers? Are you giving up on Firestorm?
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: I have never used firestorm really
[11:22] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Firestorm has evolved with OS pretty darn well it seems to me.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i use occaisonally to record video
[11:22] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Most people I run into in opensim are using Firestorm.
[11:22] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: What are you using, Nebadon?
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: I suppose but there is a big disconnect between all the viewer developers and opensim
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i use Replex
[11:22] Sheera Khan: I use FS all the time and mostly I'm quite content with it
[11:22] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: FS better for newer users, less buttons
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: yea they work good most of the time
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: sorry, been distracted by some RL issues at my end. Reading scrollback now...
[11:23] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: If there is a disconnect, let's connect it up!
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: but that one particular bug is quite hard to pin down and fix
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: I wish I knew how to
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: Singularity have the annoying problem that the GUI is still V1
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: that is intentional Richardus heh
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: and windlight not work the same
[11:23] Sheera Khan: and unfortunatly the FS team doesn't have a member which is really active in OS
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: But. i use singulairty because FS is in use for sl
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yea, the problem is none of the firestorm devs really use opensim
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: they are all hardcore second life people
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: singularity is a dead project from what I can tell
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua is stil going it seems
[11:24] Sheera Khan: well, that's where most of there users live ...
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Replex is of course dead too
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the LL viewer is just way to complex
[11:25] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Another thing.. this cannot find profile data, seems when a visitor from a grid running profile v2 arrives at a grid running profile v1.. on the osg party I get spammed to hell with the messages
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: no one seems to understand it
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: even the TPV teams
[11:25] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: If the devs don't use Firestorm, what do they use?
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: thye do GUI mods
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but no one really knows the internals of the viewer
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: even the Firstorm folks
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: really the TPV projects are all just GUI modders
[11:26] Sheera Khan: nawww, there are some differences between different viewers though
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: and none of the opensim devs really want to look at the LL viewer code
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its a horrible mess
[11:26] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: So what is the developer plan for a new viewer then?
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: we really need something new and better
[11:26] Sheera Khan: hihihi
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: Avination is working on something, but I don't know when that will happen
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: viewer will take a long time
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: doing it for free, I don't know if it will even happen
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its really hard to say
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: depoends on what the future have for suprise
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: yea the Avination viewer right now is the best and likely only hope
[11:28] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: one way to find out would be to use radegast, see if it happens then
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: radegast is stil LL protocols 100%
[11:28] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: ONly hope???!!
[11:28] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: that is a completely different code base
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: its still the same protocols
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: designed for a walled garden of SL
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: not for hypergrid
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: and from my experience Radegast will crash for 100 other reasons
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:29] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: seems ok when I use but then
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: it probably wouldnt happen with Radegast anyway, radegast doesnt cache things the same
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: it might not cache at all I dont know
[11:30] Sheera Khan: I think a sane definition of the protocol would have to be done prior to developing some new viewer (and server)
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: If opensim can convert a region complete to mesh. there mabey betteroptions in some year(s)
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: well for opensimulator its just a matter of new modules
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: that speak to viewers differently
[11:30] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: If the users knew what the devs needed, perhaps we could help.  For example your statement that we need a new viewer but it's not likely to happen for free tells me that there is money needed.  Money can be raised if we know what the heck is needed.
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: its already designed to do that easily
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure we could raise the kind of money needed
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: 150-250k
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: possibly more
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: LL spent millions
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: 10's of millions
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: granted we get a head start with things like Unity3D or Unreal
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so it wont take that kind of money
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but its still a huge chunk of change to do it right
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: modern video games spend huge amounts of money on their render engines
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: just a weird question. it far far far away from what opensim people want. but if you could use the high fidelity viewer. and let that .. hmm. no that is not working without replacing the server side to i think.
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the high fidelity viewer is terrible
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: you dont want that
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: It's not terrible neb. and it can be customized and expanded. it's QML
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: for the windows. still agree partly with neb.
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: I didnt like it at all
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: I have more hope in sansar. :O
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: heh I don't
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think Sansar will be all that great either but its hard to say
[11:34] Sheera Khan: Select an Option: Mac OSX or Windows... I'm sooooo out ^^
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: Well, SL is to expensive. and nobody is going to opensim i know. hehe oww. yeah. poor apple users. why buy people apple
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: or worse, linux that not run much
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: it mabey takes a few years
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: doing cross platform is quite difficult
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: with any kind of high quality anyway it is
[11:35] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: sounds like we are doooomed :)
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: no I dont think we are doomed
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but it will take time
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: especially if its done strictly on a volunteer basis
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: Noo. SL is faster doomed then opensim
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: personally I dont know anyone who is willing
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: to do it for free
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: but, opensim really need own viewer
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea I think at some point it wil happen, probably sooner than later
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: There was a viewer related panel at the OSCC where someone had talked about a viewer they were working on that would be modular. It may be a long time before it would be usable to the extent of Sing or FS but seemed to be the best bet for a new viewer for OS.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully Avination viewer is good
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: if I can help finance it I will
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but I cant finance the whole thing that is for sure
[11:37] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm just putting this in the chat so that devs and future readers can see it. Opensim is being used by tens of thousands of people. More than 30,000 in public regions, more than 70,000 behind closed doors. Many of those people are using it for serious education uses. Others for nonprofit organizing and for business.  If opensim doesn't have a path forward, are we supposed to go to High Fidelity where they will at least talk to us?  If funds need to be raised to accomplish something to stabalize and grow opensim, let me know serenejewell@gmail.com.  If there is something else that needs to be done, let us know.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think we can fundraise enough
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: even if we could we dont really have any infrastructure or people I would trust to handle that kind of money
[11:38] Sheera Khan: in a small scale it was already done with some success by Thalia Adams
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ok back on phone, but here still
[11:38] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: These are all things that are created every day, Nebadon. It's not rocket science.  It can be done.
[11:39] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Well as already said, in other quarters, a roadmap. You cannot expect other developers to spend months doing stuff for it be rejected as not part of some master plan
[11:39] Sheera Khan: Talla Adam - sorry
[11:40] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yes, that was a nice project.  Thoughtfully managed from start to finish.
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: yes it can be done
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but its a huge undertaking
[11:40] Sheera Khan: unfortunatly it didn't get repeated ...
[11:41] Sheera Khan: by the way... that mumble / murmur project could use a little kick too ^^
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:42] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Nebadon, you sound kind of down about the prospects of a happy healthy opensim future. I just want to hug you and give you a cup of tea and a million dollars.  I have tea, but I don't actually have a million dollars. :-)  I do think there is a way forward, including fundraising.  These are things that CAN be done. i just can't tell if what the devs want.
[11:42] Kayaker Magic: LOL
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: put's acup of coffee next to the tea. in case
[11:44] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: :-)
[11:44] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        367b7d7: 2016-01-31 03:08:24 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: well I am just trying to be realistic about it
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: we can definitely do it
[11:44] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I'm all for that.
[11:45] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: There is also what appears to be a new compiler project. Seems to have stalled
[11:45] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: https://github.com/EriHoss/LibLSLCC
[11:46] Kayaker Magic: That doesn't look like a new engine, which would also be nice....
[11:47] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: no but it does make creating scripts easier
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: oh you tak about new script engine
[11:47] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: no compiler
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: LSL is terrible for years in opensim. i would say useless compared to SL
[11:48] Kayaker Magic: InWorldz released a bunch of their sources, did that include their LSL engine?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: InWorlds stuff is not compatible with opensim at all
[11:48] Sheera Khan: I think yes, Phlox got released too
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea we cant use any of that stuff
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: without major refactor to opensim
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: I dissagree Richardus, I can do almost anything in OpenSim LSL that I can do in SL
[11:49] Sheera Khan: I thought OS would be highly modular
[11:49] Kayaker Magic: But starting from Phlox would be a big step up from starting from scratch....
[11:49] Sheera Khan: so it should be doable to put Phlox in a module to load
[11:50] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Eric Blundell goes to show that there are talented developers out there
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Putting money towards a problem is of no use if you don't have people who are able to do the required work.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: InWorlds broke away from opensim around 0.5.x
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: SOrry kaya, but with my train it worked. next version it not worked and since var region i stopped without becasue the results are so unreliable and LSL is so slow in opensim.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and things changed drastically
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: either opensim would have to change considerably
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: or all of their modules would have to be rewritten
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its a lot of work for very little reward
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Rewriting modules might be possible depending on just how much rewriting is required.
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: from what I saw other devs say it would require a lot of work
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: they fundamentally changed
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: also I think they run on Windows platform
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i cant remember
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That puts things back at starting from scratch.
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: II beleive InWorlds is a singluar platform
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: its not cross platform in anyway
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: yeah, windows. thats good.
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: if it only works on windows it will never go into core
[11:53] Sheera Khan: and it would still need a little dash of Hypergrid ^^
[11:53] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: thing to ask InWorldz, if they could do it over again what mistakes would the avoid.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: maybe, thats more philisophical question really
[11:54] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: ?
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I havent really seen much about inworlds that seemed better than opensim really
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, one problem I ran in to at InWorldz is they don't preserve prim link order the way OS does.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: It meant that one object I want to take there would require a major overhaul to make it work.
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: Their border crossing works, most of the time.
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't be bothered to do that.
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: I just stopped counting on prim order years ago.
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't to have to deal with manually numbering 254 prims in an object to make it work, plus do a major rewrite of the script to deal with random prim numbering.
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: and, yes, I do have one object with that many prims.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: ok off phone again sorry
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: still dealing with malware
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: reading back
[11:58] Sheera Khan: Outchies
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: yea we have border crossing working now too
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: with ubODE atleast
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: I know how yopu feel andrew. i did that problem with sensor stuuff etc. because speed is so unreliable and things a bit unpredictable you where rewriting. until i gave up
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: not sure about the bulletsim status of that
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: ive been so distracted lately with work
[11:59] Kayaker Magic: What? You should stop playing RL
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: made as example a working version in SL:. works pretty good. moved it top opensim. it worked, that's all
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: the border crossing has nothing to do with physics engine though
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: so really i doubt they are doing anything special there
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope there is cross-pollination between ubODE and BulletSim (where possible) so that things getting fixed in one might get fixed in the other.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with border crossing is sending the physics data, accelration angle etc..
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: as a prim property
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: it becomes part of the prim
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: so while its technically a physics issue
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its not totally tied to any particular physics engine the issue
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: I think at this point its just a matter of getting bulletsim to honor those prim properties
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and store them correctly
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: pretty sure its on Roberts to do list
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and realistically PhysX is not any better than bulletsim
[12:01] Kayaker Magic: Heck, what do we pay him for!
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks grins
[12:01] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: :-)
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: I am hopeful about improvments though
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: even though i may sound negative about it
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: Just need to realize this stuff is going to take time
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and probably money
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: maybe some kind of crowd funding can help
[12:03] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Great. Let's do it!
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I think Melanie may have some plans to initially subsidze things via Steam platform
[12:03] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: IM me sometime, Nebadon.
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but dont quote me on that
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: its way to early to say anything for sure
[12:03] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Just one last word from me.  I'll put it in irc too.
[12:03] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Dear devs, What you have created with opensim is a marvel. Your efforts are applauded every day in opensim. You have enabled people to create extraordinary virtual worlds, express themselves creatively, and for some people, opensim provides their only hope of a social life because they are not mobile. What would be most helpful right now?  Additional programmers? Money to fund you? Money spent on a viewer dev? The community to go away and leave you alone? Tea?
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: It's just sad possible becaue lack of assets security that people keep to muhc bound to SL. mabey it change in a few years. but framerate need to improve to
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: In the UK, all problems can be solved with the judicious application of tea. ;)
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: well lets not jump the gun on the money thing
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i want to see something that sort of works
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: before we commit to money
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise it could all be for nothing
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: money alone isnt enough
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: money is what will get us over the finish line
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right now money complicates it
[12:05] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: What else is needed?  Programmers? Drugs? Tea?
[12:05] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: lol
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: programmers mostly
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Melanie will open source her code eventually
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: Coffee and programmers for sure
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: The other two items might be needed to keep the programmers on track.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: but I know she needs to monetize her work in some way
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we talked about Steam
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: as a possibility
[12:06] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Would somthing temporary help?  Like a Google Summer of Code person?  What KIND of programmer is needed?
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: maybe like a small purchase to help fund the work
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: getting into steam isnt easy
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: you need a viable product before you can even be considered
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: then of course valve wants a cut
[12:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Serene, one that knows much about graphics and howto probram it
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i dont just want to throw money out there though
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: and hope for the best
[12:07] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Well Steam is certainly a new wrinkle.
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: References to Steam confuse me. It is both a game platform, a website that has he games, and an operating system(?)
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: well like i said dont quote me on that
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: these talks we have had are all just brainstorming
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: we are not even close to that stage yet
[12:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: For physics mabey robort can help
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: its all 3 of those things Andrew
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:07] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: We have people on Steam, its a way to market products
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: Steam is a delivery platform
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: for software/games/info
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: its also a social network of sorts
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: SoC can help for some things but it can take a while for someone to get in to the code base enough for them to be able to do something useful.
[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i hate steam, could download a free game with my card. never done it because the ask tpo create account. and mabey you need to install crap software./ so no steam is bad
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus name one system where you spend money
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: that is safe that you dont do that
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: answer = none
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: if we are going to fund this project
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: at some point you are going to be making an account on something you probably dont want too
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: but we will see nothings for sure
[12:09] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: But what are the implications for opensource on Steam?
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: If I can fund this project soley through companies
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: I will
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: that is what i would prefer honestly
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: crowd funding is a sliper slopye
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: if things fall through we loose our community
[12:10] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: companies suggest ownership?
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: if companies loose their investment, thats just part of business
[12:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: steam is the safest option if there's nothing else good
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: no
[12:10] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Explain companies?
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: anything we do will result in opensource
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i would have it no other way
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: and I am pretty sure that is waht melanie would want too
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: she just wants to break even
[12:11] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: sorry nebadon, you seem to refer to some sort of secret society.. who is  we?
[12:11] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: How would companies fund the project?
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Right. If Steam is all three, what is being reference in terms of OS on Steam??
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: anyone who would be involved is really what i mean
[12:11] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Just trying to understand.
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: all of this is theoretical
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: but my company Encitra
[12:12] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: that will put off developers, a lack of transparency
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: we want to fund as much as we can
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: we cant pay the whole bill though
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: lack of transparency?
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: i just told you this is theoretical none of this is actually happening
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: yet
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: im just saying what I would like to see
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: I can say I will not be the one involved in any level of crowd funding it myself
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: if that happens someone else will have to make it happen
[12:13] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Nebadon are you familiar with how Blender funds it's opensource project?  Maybe a nonprofit or foundation?
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: my goal is to get companies to pay for it
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: no I am not familiar with their structure
[12:13] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Sorry, how will companies pay for it?
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: companies who are using OpenSim that is
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: like Encitra
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: others
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: maybe grants
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: I don't know im just saying how I would like to see it happen
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab (again)
[12:14] Andrew Hellershanks sighs
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: the problem with crowd funding is that if we dont deliver
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: the entire community is destroyed
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: no second chance at that point
[12:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Indi vs Pro license idea?
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it would be the end of opensimulator project
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: 100%
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: I dont want that
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: no one does
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think the community can raise enough
[12:15] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I think the current core developers need to lay out their expections for the project so potential contributors can see if they fit in
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: is my point
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: id be surprised if the community could raise more than 4-5000$ tops
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: that would be a huge waste of time
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: you would get nothing for your money
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: maybe that can be a part of it but its going to need more than that
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the mesh deformer project already costed 5000 sofar i know. and not used
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: yes and what did you get for your 5000$?
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: zippo
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: money in the fire
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: the code was never used
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: a pile of characters neb :)
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: i dont want to repeat that
[12:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup
[12:16] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: The loss of hypergrid would be the end of the opensim project for me, so if money won't help, and the devs won't communicate I don't know what to say.  I think opensim has huge potential to be the opensource web of free, interconnected virtual worlds. An alternative to Facebook world.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: I am here communicating now :)
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: the devs are busy people
[12:17] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: We need some specifics Nebadon.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: well I just dont have them yet
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: we arent that far along
[12:17] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hypergrid need to get much love. because without that not sure.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: but i promise when we have something you will probably be the first to know
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: this software drives my business, its my life
[12:18] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Well the viewer question is a hot topic.  If we don't hear something specific, we could lose Firestorm and that would be a huge loss for the regular users who aren't super programmers.
[12:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: But to get HG good. you need a good viewer
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: yea I don't know what to say
[12:19] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I don't get that rich
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: none of the opensim devlopers are real keen about working on the LL viewer projects
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: we certainly will work with them
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: but Firestorm seems wholy dedicated to SL
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: by their own statement
[12:19] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: That is just NOT TRUE.
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: they dont use our software
[12:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Billy, HG need some changes in the viewer. and in the Linden Lab voiewer that is a problem
[12:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: well, to fix HG problems
[12:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: witouth hacking around like crazy
[12:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yes, firestorm is cool
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: some of the HG problems are unfixable with the LL code
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: that is the bigger issue
[12:20] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: what changes rich, please be specific
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: it would mean major viewer refactor
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: and total break from SL 100%
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think Firestorm is up for that
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think any of the TPV teams are
[12:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not at this point neb.
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: if they were we would already be on the way there
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think they ever were
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is even our devs their devs don't understand alot of the LL code
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: which is totally undocumented
[12:21] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: problem with viewer development as I understand is the SL terms, cannot do as you like.. as I understand
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: when you get into the deep dark parts of the viewer code
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: no you cant
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: the TPV teams if they want to keep their status
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer has to remain relatively unchanged
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: it means having 2 totally sperate projects like Firestorm
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: which really thins your development abilities
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: you have to break in 2 or abandon SL or OpenSim
[12:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Worse neb, LL itself not understand all viewer code. i think ebbe told that
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: yes no one does
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: there are parts of the viewer that literally no one understands
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: not even LL
[12:23] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I wonder if we could have a little viewer summit to iron out exactly what is needed in an opensim viewer, let the Firestorm team decided if they are interested, and move forward with a plan. Which we can then help support.
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: yea I am all for that
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: there really needs to be some kind of non developer commitee
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: who drives these things
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: the devs are willing to work
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but not to coordinate all of this
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: we just dont have the time to do all of this stuff
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and still get anything done
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: we need to be removed from the politics
[12:24] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Isn't there an opensim nonprofit?  And Avacon? Sounds like a great job for a nonprofit
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes Avacon is possibility
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: that is partially me
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: we need help
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: Chris Collins has left
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: Fleep she is no longer involved in anything opensimulator
[12:24] Kayaker Magic: There is something for you to do Serene: organize a dev summit, get some viewer devs to come and some OS devs.
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: at this point its just a couple of us left at Avacon too
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: the infrastructure is there though
[12:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Then serene need to know first what is needed .. new protocols ? or or
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: but its horribly understaffed
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: you could speak with Joyce though
[12:25] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: OK Neb.  I know Joyce well.  Let's talk amongst the three of us.
[12:26] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: why not invite her here?
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.avacon.org/blog/about/
[12:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well. its 25 minutes over. so going to run
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: Joyce is not into developer stuff
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: this is Dev Office Hours
[12:26] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: but she seems well versed with the business side
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:26] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Maybe we need community office hours. :-)
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: I am an Avacon Employee but I just dont have the time
[12:26] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: good idea serene
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: i can try to facilitate a meeting though
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: Avacon needs volunteers
[12:27] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I think people will manage :)
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: yes I am all for community
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: the community needs to help lift some of this heavy weight
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: the developers are already short on time
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: you are more than welcome to use this area
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: or the OSCC grid
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: to hold these meetings
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: you just need to let me know
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: I can facilitate the location for sure though
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: avacon grid too
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: we have plenty of space :)
[12:28] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: if your busy nebadon, then maybe somewhere else would be more convenient
[12:29] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Something we are all lucky to have in opensim.  Lots of space.  :-)
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: the hardware is always running
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC has 24 core CPU and 64 gb ram
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: lets use it
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: or we can use this region
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: i really dont care if someone else wants to host it, great
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: im all for it
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: but you guys need to organize that
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: and I will do my best to be there
[12:30] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: well for community, need somewhere less developer oriented
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: and try to drag along some developers on occasion
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC is quite neutral
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: avacon is neutral
[12:30] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I like the idea of here.  Community and dev are two sides of the same coin.
[12:30] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: someone push a proposal out on the google + thing then?
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC is hosted at University of California Irvine Data Center
[12:31] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Will do.
[12:31] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I like the idea of here because we can test the test server.  :-)
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: that is really true of any location though
[12:31] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have pretty big systems, but it need to be somewhere everyone is familiar
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: this region is a bit heavy
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:32] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Perfect.  Real life usage.
[12:32] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: especially HG visitor
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya http://cc.opensimulator.org:8002
[12:32] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and there is this "unable to fetch profile" issue ...
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Back (again). I know I won't touch viewer code as long as it is in C++.
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: or http://grid.avacon.org:8002
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to visit and explore
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: via HG
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: i wont be authorizing local accounts on OSCC right now
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: Avacon we will if you are interested in being a part of the community there
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: we wont just authorize anyone though
[12:33] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: It has to be hypergriddable to be community.
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: both are
[12:33] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: best if it requires no admin involvement
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: you can HG in via those addresses above
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: will put you at the landing zone
[12:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that profile message i have seen once. i think when i did open prefs
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: that is a different problem
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: that is because not all grids run teh same profile software
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid runs osprofile still
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: while most grids probably run core profile now
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: they are not quite compatible
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: that is why you see that message
[12:34] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: anyway,m bye all
[12:34] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: that is a pain on friday party.. the spam is awful
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: kk Richardus
[12:34] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's why I would prefer a place running v2 profiles ...
[12:34] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: yeh
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: I cant remember what OSCC is running
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: i could switch it easily though
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: unlike here
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: not so easy
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: ok well let me know
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: i would suggest someone contact Joyce anyway
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: get her involved
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: If OS profile module needs some extra code to support fetching profiles from HG regions that can be done. Right now, I don't personally have a lot of interest in dealing with HG stuff. I have no development set up to do HG related testing.
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: VWBPE is coming up
[12:36] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: Yeah, I'll contact Joyce today.
[12:36] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: just need someone to manage the chair
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: VWBPE?
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: http://vwbpe.org/
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: it will be partially hosted on Avacon Grid
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: rest is in SL
[12:36] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Virtual Worlds Best Practises in Education
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: but maybe a good time to drum up some support
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: for community
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: and if I can help i sure will
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: i just cant be leading the charge
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: it needs to be a non dev
[12:37] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: there are some very good organizers on Opensim
[12:37] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have no problem leading a charge. Just like to know where I'm going.  :-)
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: yea absolutely
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: Joyce is one of them
[12:38] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: I have about 20 SL vacation users, something like this would interest them
[12:39] Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: coffee upgrade time... see ya
[12:39] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: bye Billy.
[12:40] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: On a side note ... Andrews name apeears in the chat window now for me
[12:40] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: but is name tag ist stinn Unknown User
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: yay. I'm no longer the avatar to be named later. :)
[12:40] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: :-)
[12:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and Nebadons name didn't appear in local chat for the first hour (for me) but at some point of time it apeared out of the blue
[12:41] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I did add/replace them for the log though ...
[12:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I should get going. I have a couple of things to do.
[12:42] Serene.Jewell @grid.kitely.com:8002: I have to go. Glad we got to a place of potential progress.   Will be in touch Nebadon.
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