Chat log from the meeting on 2016-01-05

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[11:01] Boba Solo: 8.3.3 dev will to the point
[11:01] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:01] Sheera Khan: well, I'll be back then when it's running again ...
[11:01] Serene Jewell: Oh dear.
[11:01] Boba Solo: lordy mercy
[11:01] Sheera Khan: Ciaoooo
[11:01] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: ciao Sheera
[11:02] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Looks like the region is running 0.9 commit from Dec 27
[11:02] Serene Jewell: I am hearing that very same thing from a lot of hypergridders. No scripted attachments = sadness. What should they do?
[11:02] Boba Solo: find the 8.3 dev version
[11:03] Boba Solo: and adjust the default opensim ini
[11:03] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: oh my shoes are scripted
[11:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: why are shoes scipted ?
[11:03] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: I can take off if someone complaints
[11:03] Boba Solo: to click walking
[11:03] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: On Refuge I've stayed with an Oct 21 build of 0.8.3 as the best working.  I only run 0.9 in two sandboxes for testing
[11:03] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Richardus because I want them to be scripted :)
[11:03] Boba Solo: exatly Seth
[11:03] Boba Solo: we also
[11:03] Boba Solo: well mostly we
[11:04] Boba Solo: I did a 9.0 it borked my grid to ashes
[11:04] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: mymini-grid is on 0.8.3
[11:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: well, i stay at 0.8.2.1
[11:04] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Probably best to keep it that way for a while Isis
[11:04] Boba Solo: 8.2 isnt great either
[11:04] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: yes, definetly Seth
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not have problems sofar
[11:05] Serene Jewell: Is the scripted attchement thing going to be fixed?
[11:06] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Ubit made some improvements to the handling of mesh physics and avatar interactions, but I think there is going to be a lot of bad content when people start using 0.9 much
[11:06] Tamy Luv: vo tp voce pra minha casa
[11:06] Tamy Luv (pt>en): Vo tp you home
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: One way to scare people to newer things at soem point
[11:06] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I haven't seen any details on what the plans are.  IMHO it is very important to mention issues you have.
[11:07] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: My understanding of the script issue is a side effect of the changes region permissions and groups
[11:07] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: hello Bob
[11:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hellos isis
[11:07] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Seth what is exactly the problem?
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi bob
[11:08] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: with scripts and attachments I mean
[11:08] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I think that should be changed further so scripted attachments work if the avi is allowed in the region
[11:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hellos Richard
[11:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: an all
[11:08] Serene Jewell: That makes sense, Seth.
[11:08] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: hiya everyone
[11:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hello xani
[11:08] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Right now it appears a region has to be public or scripts in attachments need to be modified to belong to the group the region is set to
[11:08] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: hiya Zani
[11:09] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        7831d21: 2015-12-27 15:05:17 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm not sure where nebadon is today.
[11:09] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: So that makes travelling with scripted attachments almost impossible
[11:09] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: dang
[11:09] Serene Jewell: That seems like a step backward.
[11:09] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: uh thats odd, thanks for explaining Seth
[11:09] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That will be a very big problem
[11:10] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I havent seen any decently done work sence 7.6 cept the ossl
[11:10] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we need that but the low frame rates are killing us me everyone
[11:10] Serene Jewell: Is there a way to solve whatever the problem was AND let people travel with scripted attachments?
[11:10] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: and now 0.9 breaks ossl functions too no?
[11:11] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: There was some good inventory loading fixes done in 0.8.2 in May, and some other fixes around a regression that affected HG asset transfer as well
[11:11] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: 0.9 however needs a lot more work to get inline IMHO
[11:11] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: yes, the oddy problem between linux and windows
[11:12] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I run exclusively under Linux so can't compare to Windows very well
[11:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: gotya
[11:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ive heard it's farly the same in function
[11:12] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Ubit I believe does his development however entirely in Windows iirc
[11:12] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: I was so happy that we got finally a nice working danceball from Aine and now it will stop working
[11:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: as far as the scripts and frame rate etc
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: good version seems 0.8.2.1
[11:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: no Rich
[11:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: not for ossl
[11:13] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: that runs fine for me
[11:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: it's terrible
[11:13] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: 8.2
[11:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:13] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: frame rate is more a reporting issue than anything else.  They added a setting to use true (11FPS) or inflated (55FPS) for frame rate
[11:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: 8.3 is way better
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: no 0.8.2.1
[11:13] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: the sim however runs the same regardless
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: there's no 0.8.3
[11:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: exatly
[11:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and once you get 500 prim it goes to 9 fps
[11:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: there was a 8.3
[11:14] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I run 0.8.3 master dev, from just before they added the avination merge and moved to 0.9
[11:14] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: 0.8.2its the latest no?
[11:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: posted on the git hub
[11:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: for a day
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: 500 prims of what ? i have 20000+ prims and see no problem
[11:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I have the zip file yet today
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Isis, the latest release is 0.8.2.1
[11:15] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: ah the fixed one, ok
[11:15] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: for opensim yes
[11:15] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I am running many regions with no issues keeping 11FPS, even for parties with 25 avis or so present
[11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi andrew\
[11:15] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hmm
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Richardus
[11:15] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: 0.8.2.1 is the last stable release, yes
[11:15] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we have 1500 prim and it takes it down
[11:15] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: offical
[11:16] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: hello Lucy :)
[11:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: 8.3 was a rc1 I believe
[11:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: for a day
[11:16] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Something must be wrong there Bob.  I can give you have troubleshooting that if you want
[11:16] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: Hi isis
[11:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I grabbed one from git
[11:16] Serene Jewell: Hiya Lucy
[11:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: wonderful Zeth thank you
[11:16] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: Hi all
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Prims by themselves should not have much impact on FPS. If they do, check if some are physical that may be causing an issue. Perhaps some of them have scripts in them which are causing an issue.
[11:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: out trouble seems to be the assets cache in the bin
[11:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: our
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: In the past physical prims partly sitting in the terrain cause problems.
[11:17] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Pooly behaved scripts are the biggest impact on the sim
[11:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: it grows huge in 24 hrs to like 30+ G
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Seth, always have been
[11:17] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That sounds like a script issue
[11:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: needs only 2 gigs
[11:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: could be
[11:18] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: weve been beating our heads for three weeks
[11:18] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and I mean that to be true
[11:18] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I am running 2x2 vars with 10K prims and 1K scritps in approx 1GB that run for weeks without a restart
[11:18] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: sea sickness common
[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: llSLeep can be killer if used to much
[11:18] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: is that your assets cache in the simulator side
[11:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: size
[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: llSLeep could be problem
[11:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I wondered if that could be an issue
[11:19] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I run Flotsam cache, disk only for the sim cache
[11:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ahh possibly thx Rich
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: llSleep used in a timer can be a big problem.
[11:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we do also
[11:19] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I have seen some scripts that can cause a sim to eat memory though
[11:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: but in the bin there is an assets cache file
[11:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hiya CUte
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Scripts that do texture changing in a timer can also cause issues if too many scripts that do that are used in a region.
[11:20] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: llSleep needs to be used carefully, XEngine is not threaded so each time it is used it impacts everything else
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Cuteulala
[11:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ahh
[11:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: okies
[11:20] Cuteulala Artis: hi
[11:20] Cuteulala Artis: whats with the radiation sound
[11:21] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: im frying in the fire place
[11:21] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and it's BBQ Bob
[11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi cute. the only one that got the bones right. if i try mesh avatar things deform
[11:21] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, although changing to the fast versions of the function helps a lot if they are not already using them when they do the texture changes
[11:21] Cuteulala Artis: hi all
[11:21] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I ran it both ways
[11:21] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Cute and anyone that came in recently
[11:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: then figured if we tweek the client side
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, you've check the top scripts numbers for the region?
[11:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: did see any
[11:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: or collisions
[11:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: very few prim
[11:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and scripts
[11:23] Serene Jewell: So what is the NPC issue in 0.9 ?
[11:23] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: just testing scripted attachment
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, You may need to do what I had to do once to track down a problem.
[11:23] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[11:23] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: There are NPC issues that result from group permissions in 0.9
[11:24] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: Also a problem with sit Targets
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, save an oar of the region then start deleting groups of prims a few at a time until the problem goes away. When it has gone away, the problem is in the last few prims you removed from the region. That will let you narrow down the source of the problem.
[11:24] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Aine detailed her findings on her blog; http://ainetutorials.blogspot.ca/2016/01/paramour-product-support-for-opensim-09.html
[11:24] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ahh good idea
[11:24] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: small avatars are horrendously jerky now too, which didnt happen before
[11:24] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: exatly
[11:24] Serene Jewell: So is the "fix" that NPCs only work if you are in their group?
[11:25] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and the root of it is the frame rate
[11:25] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: or the heart beat
[11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hmm, small avatars have spom eproblems for longer on terrain
[11:25] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: were ok in 7.6 even teeny weeny ones
[11:25] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:25] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: 7.6 was bullet proof
[11:25] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: cept for no ossl
[11:26] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I tried yesterday to frankenstine one
[11:26] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: terraforming was good then too
[11:26] Cuteulala Artis: Ohhhh! boy
[11:26] Cuteulala Artis: package arived
[11:26] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: use the ossl and dll files in a 7.6
[11:26] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: awesome
[11:26] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: from the 8.3 to the 7.6
[11:26] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: it worked ?
[11:26] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: not yet
[11:27] Cuteulala Artis: whats that anoying beeping
[11:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: C+ screammed bloody murder
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if Cuteulala is hearing things
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks grins
[11:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ღ¸.•* LoL *•.¸ღ
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: C+ ? opensim is C#
[11:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Cute
[11:27] Cuteulala Artis: i got expensive good speakers with awsome tweeters
[11:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: opps dang gestures
[11:27] Cuteulala Artis: turn ur vol up and u hear it
[11:27] Cuteulala Artis: o.o
[11:27] Serene Jewell: Cuteula, that is the sound of my head getting ready to explode because I am trying to understand this NPC thing and I am a mere tree.
[11:28] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: super duper Cute
[11:28] Cuteulala Artis: lololol
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: I just hear running water from a nearby fountain.
[11:28] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: poor thing
[11:28] Cuteulala Artis: Shield tablet!
[11:28] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: perhaps it is a branch issue Serene ;)
[11:28] Serene Jewell: lol
[11:28] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: hehe
[11:28] Serene Jewell: Maybe I am ready to be committed.
[11:28] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I feel that way also
[11:29] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Serene we all are in your same boat
[11:29] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and prying for rain
[11:29] Serene Jewell: So is this the thing that is breaking NPCs? #ee15c51 NPC Group Permissions?
[11:29] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: but reality is for some odd reason the opensim has been changed so much in so little time
[11:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Group permissions and how parcels are handled is what we think is one of the causes
[11:30] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I agree
[11:30] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: as all the work is being done on ubode what support is now bing put towards bullet  ? Just wondering as that was the latest greatest thing till recently
[11:30] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: try and set estate managers etc
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: The default permissions for a number of scripting functions has changed. You can always change them to what you need.
[11:31] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Estate managers did not have any effect on the issues we found
[11:31] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: true
[11:31] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: zani what were the perrmission issues
[11:31] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: setting items perms are just a nightmare
[11:32] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: just being in World in a Nightmare
[11:32] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: put them down, pick them up beat them with a stick, good luck in setting them
[11:32] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: but often who scripts things, and who uses them are 2 different persons. Meaning not all know how to change or adjust scripts
[11:32] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I get sea sicness
[11:32] Serene Jewell: Quite a few people have invested a lot of time getting NPCs working. Including educators. Will they be stuck forever at 8.2?
[11:32] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: so the users are going to be stucked and the creator will get tons of more work
[11:33] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: wondering how long it would take until they throw the whole thing away and do nothing
[11:33] Cuteulala Artis: tablt sounds great
[11:33] Cuteulala Artis: Ohhhh Woooow!
[11:33] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Serene I can send a zip of 8.3 dev to you
[11:33] Cuteulala Artis: im so offtopic cause package fun :P
[11:33] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That is certainly a concern and some may just walk away if things are too much of a problem
[11:33] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: it will work  for your needs
[11:33] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hehehe
[11:34] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I know I have been in opensim for many years and never been sea sick
[11:34] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and now cant be inworld very long before im sickly
[11:34] Serene Jewell: I'm totally committed to moving forward with opensim. The future is bright. We just need to be aware of how many people are being affected by the big changes.
[11:34] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and litterly sick
[11:35] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Bob it works now with 0.8.3 but as I understand Serene it would mean, creators are dman for ever to use 0.8.3
[11:35] Serene Jewell: Like broken sits and NPCS
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: For me it just got better. mabye pc get old bob and graphics card
[11:35] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: same for me sea sickness and i got a new card
[11:36] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: true Serene, its amazing how many are making stuff for the pleasure of the opensim community
[11:36] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: so yes, would be a pitty if they would give up frustrated
[11:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I know worries me also
[11:36] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: IMHO some of the changes in 0.9 really need to be looked at very carefully and re-coded to restore, or be backwards compatible, with behaviours up to now in previous versions.  Especially things that have a big impact on so many users
[11:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: exatly
[11:36] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: applauds that comment
[11:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Seth that is so true
[11:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think the sea sicknes sproblem is just a whole opensim / sl and viewer problem. it's still based on old ductape
[11:37] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Rich never had the sea sicness before
[11:37] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: if thats so Ricardus, its been newly brought in since the 8s
[11:37] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: opensim was fabulous till recentoly
[11:38] Serene Jewell: Yes, what Seth said.
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes, opensim anyway need a higher framerate. that's to slow from day 1
[11:38] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: The newer changes "feel" to less of a collective work and deviate a lot from any path OpenSIm was sort of following, thus things are changes in ways that I don't think are necessarily the best
[11:38] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ossl is fab
[11:38] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: and regards scripts AWV has has over 9000 scripts on a region and still no sickness
[11:38] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: and a region with the most appalling mesh you dare imagine
[11:38] Serene Jewell: Opensim is the only viable open source metaverse. There are 34,000 known active users and many many more behind education walls. Opensim is not a toy.
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what is the simfps ? it seems that there's a discussion around it and mabye create problems
[11:38] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: exatly
[11:39] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I so agree
[11:39] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: the actual frame rate is 11 fps
[11:39] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I can change it to 30
[11:39] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: but it has side affects
[11:39] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: then have to increase the physics frame reate to match
[11:39] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: The SimFPS is what gets reported for the frame time the sim is using.   It was always reported as 55fps to look more like SL, but was in fact 11 behind the scenees.
[11:39] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: then all hell breaks loose
[11:40] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes seth. but the story is going round that the viewer now is doing wrong calcualtiuons bcause the wrong framerate
[11:40] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: The MOSES group did a set of patches that provided "correct" reported values.  However that has once again be chnages to allow the faked 55FPS to be shown
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, If you are using BulletSim physics do you have it running in its own thread?
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: would explain why my train did go start doinbg wrong long time ago. i stopped anyway with that. opensim to bad withs cripting
[11:41] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes Andrew
[11:41] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: The viewer does not caclulate the Sim FPS, it is reported from the sim
[11:41] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we do infack yes
[11:41] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: fact
[11:41] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: infact
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, but it seems the viewere is calcualtion interpolations etc.
[11:42] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: something like that
[11:42] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: all threads running asinc and bullet has its own thread
[11:42] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: The viewer has a scene FPS, which is its display update, that is  very different from the SimFPS.
[11:42] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bob, did you gave bullet it's own thread ? i have that confiigured
[11:42] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok. oops
[11:42] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and running concurrently instead of consecutively
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I already asked that. :)
[11:43] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: oh
[11:44] Serene Jewell: Do you think the devs read these meeting logs?
[11:44] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hope so
[11:44] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hello Ubit
[11:44] Serene Jewell: Hi Ubit!
[11:44] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hiyas Meloneee
[11:44] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: waves
[11:44] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hy Neb
[11:44] Serene Jewell: We need to fix NPCs and sits.
[11:44] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Dan
[11:45] Serene Jewell: Hi all you devs. Thanks for working on opensim. It's a great thing and brings many people happiness.
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit is often at these meetings.
[11:45] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: wish He were today
[11:45] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and Nebadon also
[11:45] Serene Jewell: Moving forward is great. What would be awesome is if we can move forward AND not break NPCs. :-)
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I don't know where nebadon is hiding out today. Probably busy somewhere.
[11:46] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: applauds serene
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll let the devs know they should ready todays meeting log.
[11:46] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Yes, it is too bad they are not here for their own scheduled meeting
[11:46] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I have loved opensim for 7 or 8 years so much it's all we do and now it is like we been hyjacked by the demon bug
[11:46] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002 shouts: I ask what can I do to help
[11:47] Serene Jewell: Progress is good! Progress with compassion for the users is even better. :-)
[11:47] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: all this time I never learned c+
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Filing mantis reports is one way to help.
[11:47] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: c#
[11:47] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: true
[11:47] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: im guilty
[11:47] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Yes, Mantis reports and comments are very important
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: The developers can't fix problems they don't know about.
[11:47] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: exatly
[11:48] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: i think the users and user experience is paramount
[11:48] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: without the users, what is there ?
[11:48] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and if they would test there branchs before planting the tree in our bathroom it would help also
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: why c+ ? opensim is c#
[11:48] Serene Jewell: If they are marked "works as designed" it kind of discourages people. Maybe more of a dialogue to get to a win win.
[11:48] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: kindly said
[11:49] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:49] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I agree
[11:49] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I thought to attend at least the meetings to start
[11:49] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: then see about a testing group or the like
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, the code does get tested. Still, testing can't catch everything. OS grid runs code from master so it is pretty up to date with changes which makes this grid a big test bed for OpenSim.
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi is online.
[11:50] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: well I see it like this Andrew
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon is coming in now.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone, sorry i just got back in
[11:50] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:50] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Neb
[11:50] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: osgrid was at one time the offical test bed but now?
[11:50] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hiya Nebadon
[11:50] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: hello Nebadon
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, it still is, afaik.
[11:50] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi neb. wrong timezone ?
[11:50] Bob.Wellman @www.pmgrid.org:8002 is online.
[11:50] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: the problem arises, when the statement is " well its beta, what do you expect " use something else, if you dont like beta
[11:50] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: were all here with our pitch porks SIR
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: haha no i was out running some errands
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and took much longer than i expected it would have
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: I am leaving for sweden on Monday
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: so running around a lot
[11:51] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: oh nice
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Zani, IIRC, OS is still flagged as Alpha.
[11:51] Serene Jewell: Hi Neb. Happy travels.
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: thanks :)
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: what I miss?
[11:51] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: dont let the door hit ya where the good lord spit ya
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Alpha or Beta it doesn't really matter. It can still have bugs.
[11:51] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: were all plating our discontent Neb
[11:52] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: the facts form testing
[11:52] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: our sea sickness
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:52] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: the NPC's
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, compaints about several issues with some recent changes in OpenSim for one.
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ah
[11:52] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: our soon to be broken NPCs
[11:52] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: well scripted attachments
[11:52] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: frame shutter
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ok well some of this is very unintentional of course
[11:53] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: changes in 0.9 are having a much bigger impact on things that they should, or need to, I think.  permission changes affecting NPC and scripted attachments are going to have a major negative impact on experience
[11:53] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: off sets in NPC's
[11:53] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: feeling the  community isnt considered before major changes are made
 [11:53] Nebadon Izumi: development branch cant really be considered stable
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: so lets be clear
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: if your running -dev code
[11:53] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[11:53] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: expect it to be broken
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: dont get mad about that
[11:53] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: ainetutorials.blogspot.com
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: file bug reports
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, I recently mentioned filing reports
[11:54] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: but now were comming here crying like your childern because we love opensim
[11:54] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That is fully understood, however testing is also paramount and that means actually using it like you normally would
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: some of this breakage is not intentional or expected
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: some may be
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but still that doesnt mean its set in stone
[11:54] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: true
[11:55] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: abetter link
[11:55] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Neb means the devs are do listening to what 0.9 is breaking?
[11:55] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: http://ainetutorials.blogspot.com/2016/01/paramour-product-support-for-opensim-09.html
[11:55] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I for one will try to log our tests
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: I will be traveling for a couple weeks and wont have a ton of time for coordinating
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: so be patient in the meantime file reports
[11:55] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: let Ubit or Andrew Know
[11:55] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[11:55] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: and will they then take those creativity-blocking changes into account when they fix them?
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: of course
[11:55] Serene Jewell: Ubit commited #ee15c51 "npc create option OS_NPC_OBJECT_GROUP which caused quite a bit of worry.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i cant promise fast fixes
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: but we will take any kind of thing that causes pain as a consideration
[11:56] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: thank you
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: please dont assume we do it to upset you
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes we dont even realize
[11:56] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: hehe
[11:56] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: oh no not at all
[11:56] Serene Jewell: People, especially educators are using NPCs A LOT. If things start to break for them, that is bad for everyone.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yes, those people should not be runnning dev code
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: is my answer
[11:56] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: There is a general feeling, at least from people I speak with and myself, that the devs are somewhat disconnected from what everyone uses OpenSim for and the features they rely on.  0.9 appears to deviate greatly in some regards to how things are handled and Ubit is not always receptive of feedback
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: well Ubit is busy of course
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: dont take non response as not caring
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: The avination code merge has also shaken things up a bit as it introduced so many code changes.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: these things will take time
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: we were very forth coming that big change was occuring
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and expect breakage
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: we cant fix it all simulatnously
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but we are very interested in making it the best experience we can of course
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes we have to comprimise comfort for safety
[11:58] Serene Jewell: To repeat the statistic, there are 34,000 known active users of opensim and many more behind education walls. Decisions about something as big as NPCs and sits need to be taken carefully.
[11:58] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: And while that is understood, it also has to be tempered with some form of consensus to ensure the greater community is kept in the loop
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: if the community isnot in the loop
[11:58] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: Neb, will there be a " list " of the great things this merge will eventually provide ? over and above what we all had before that worked apart from region crossings ( or is there a list i havent seen )
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: its not our fault
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: we are very open in our IRC channels
[11:58] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Neb a question, how is that the reason for some code its " griefers"
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: its impossible to predict breakage
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: with such a huge merge
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: the merge isnt complete
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: keep that in mind
[11:59] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: IRC is used by probably less than 1% of the users, that is a crappy solution for the average user
[11:59] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: did we need that merge for real?
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:59] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: I have no idea how to use IRC, never used it
[12:00] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: it works well for devs, but is not a suitable mechaism to keep ongoing information flow to the community in general
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: well I dont know how we can inform you about things we ourselves are not always aware of
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Isis, Its not all different from doing text chat in a grid.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: you guys are asking the impossible
[12:00] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: sorry
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: you need to let us know
[12:00] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and then be patient
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: there is only a hand ful of us doing code
[12:00] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: we need more developers
[12:00] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: yes true
[12:01] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: how has opensim project acquired them in the past?
[12:01] Serene Jewell: What kind of developers would be of most use?
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: opensim has a long way to go and there will be a lot of growing pains
[12:01] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: There needs to be more a feeling of cooperation before there are going to be more developers from everything I have seen/heard over the past couple of years
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: for a while
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Zani, there will be a list of changes arising from the avination merge eventually. It will take time. I've done an initial cull of the change log and have it down to a bit over 2000 changes to be summarized.
[12:01] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: can we members help somehow with that?
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: also need to remember
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: opensim is not trying to be second life
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: it has a much broader scope
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Zani, I haven't had time to work on it further due to other projects.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: but I hear what you guys are saying
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and beleive me
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and beleive me
[12:02] Serene Jewell: Wow, 2000 changes!
[12:02] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: And I don't think the community wants it to be SL either
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i am as vocal about breaks as you guys are
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: you can ask Andrew
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: im very loud
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: about that kind of thing
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: im with you 100%
[12:02] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: with the avination merge though we get the impression the devs do want to be more SL like?
[12:02] Serene Jewell: NObody wants another SL.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: well a lot of it has to do with being compliant
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: LSL here should work the same way as SL
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: that has been a steadfast rule since day 1
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: OSSL on the other heand
[12:03] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: I spent 2 years in avination and Melanie priorety #1 was to be like SL
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we can do whatever we want
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Serene, the original changelog dump I got a hold of had over 3,000 entries in it. I've cut out some of the entries that won't appear in a summary.
[12:03] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: Im unclear of how avination is better ( apart from cars crossing borders )
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we have never had 100% LSL compatibility this merge gets us closer
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately many people came to rely on bugs and non standard LSL
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Serene, if you not want SL. what you do in opensim ? :O :)
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately we can not accomidate that
[12:03] Serene Jewell: I take back the "Nobody wants to be SL." I mean there is ALREADY a SL. We want to be better. :-)
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: we can however recreate those things with OSSL
[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Thats better :)
[12:04] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I am guiltymy biggest complaint is frame rate in core
[12:04] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: does opensim need that urgently to be LSL similar to SL then?
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I just checked. My avinationmerge.txt file has 2,376 entries to be summarized.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: no but if people submit code that fixes LSL
[12:05] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: If you look at Aine;s testing around her own items and 0.9, nothing is related to LSL being like SL;  http://ainetutorials.blogspot.ca/2016/01/paramour-product-support-for-opensim-09.html
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: to make it compliant
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be accepted
[12:05] Serene Jewell: OSSL is where the magic is for NPCs
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yes, if OSSL has changed drastically
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: its likely we can address that
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: and find out why and make it right
[12:05] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: and for multi-system without poseballs
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: but if LSL has changed and its now correct vs old broken way
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: there is no going back
[12:05] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: and dance system opensim waited since so long to have
[12:05] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: regions and group permissions seem to currently be a big issue that perhaps impacts things it should not
[12:05] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yes this stuff is in flux at the moment Seth
[12:06] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I tuned up the simulator to run 30 fps both simulator and physics and it opend a can of worms
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: dev code will always be rocky rode
[12:06] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: rocky road*
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: this is not new stuff
[12:06] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: love rocky roads but frame shutter is realy hurting
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: dont run dev code then
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: run the release code
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: thats only advice I can give
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ღ¸.•* LoL *•.¸ღ
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: it's worce
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: if you want stable
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: opps
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: Bob this is first im hearing about that
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: so I dont know
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: you mean the 11fps?
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: dang really
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: omg
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Its always been said that the dev codes should not be used in a production grid.
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:07] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: that
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya thats been undone
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: but really has zero impact
[12:07] Serene Jewell: I live on a grid that runs only release. But I travel to those that run dev. So it appears that Opensim is broken when I arrive there. It's a perception thing.
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: thats 100% mental
[12:08] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Them that also means don't go visit anyone running something different - a large portion of OSgrid for example runs 0.9 dev code
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: there is literally no change in performacne
[12:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: no it isnt Neb
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: its just reporting stats correctly
[12:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: its for real
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: no
[12:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: opensim has always ran at 11fps
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: since 2007
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: we fake the stats
[12:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we have three folks that all report the same
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: and multiply it
[12:08] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: really
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes i would not lie about this
[12:09] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        7831d21: 2015-12-27 15:05:17 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[12:09] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: dang how come all the sudden it jitters
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: likely something else
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i do beleive that part to be true
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: but its not the 11fps
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i can gaurantee you that
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: opensim has always ran at 11fps
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: the simulator heartbeat
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Bob, There was some battles...err...lively discussions about the stats reporting amongst the developers.
[12:09] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Bob looks at your scripts
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: the max you can run script loops is 0.083
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: or 11fps
[12:09] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I will send in a report on results and issues at least try my best to
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes please do
[12:09] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:10] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: we will certainly take a look and help you figure it out
[12:10] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I know and thank you
[12:10] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: many years ago you came and sorted me out
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: the only reason we fake out stats
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: to 55fps
[12:10] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and it really educated me
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: is to make the viewer happy
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: with that stupid lag meter
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: the lag meter goes nuts a 11fps
[12:11] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: but we had like 30.000 flex prims and few thousand scripts
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: its all phsycological
[12:11] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: people think they are getting bad performance when indeed they were not
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: makes for bad experience
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: we had a huge argument about this
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I didn't even know what the lag meter until the whole stats reporting issue came up.
[12:11] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Neb listen I am getting sick for real being inworld
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[12:11] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: all over grids
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: At least one viewer has gotten rid of their lag meter.
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: that doesnt sound correct
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: this is first im hearing of that kind of thing
[12:11] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I have tuned everything I can
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: it's full blowen sea sickness
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya get in a bug report, be as complete with info as you can
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: what viewer, architecture
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: okies
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: your hardware specds
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: drivers etc..
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: okie
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: and when I can, cant promise it will be in the next 3 weeks myself
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: but if i can i will try
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Great thank you
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: you can always email me too
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: nebadon2025@gmail.com
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: very much
[12:12] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: super thx
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: keep me updated
[12:13] Serene Jewell: Bob, get a free account on Kitely and see if it happens. Then you will know if it is the grid or not, yes?
[12:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: yea if you can tell me what version you dont experience it on too
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: that would be great
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: try to find the absolute latest code
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: where it doesnt happen
[12:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes Serene
[12:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: okie
[12:13] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I can set you up in Refuge Grid for comparison also if you want Bob
[12:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: that kind of stuff is very helpful
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: saves me days of work
[12:13] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: kool will do
[12:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we have tons of info
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: great
[12:14] Serene Jewell: Am I right that OSGrid is the only "official" test grid for dev code? (using "official" very loosely?)
[12:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: weeks of 10hr days
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: no i would not say that
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid is the most prominent
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: but its not official
[12:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: just the oldest
[12:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: the grandday
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: most of the core devvs have a hand in OSgrid
[12:14] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Granddaddy
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: in some way
[12:14] Serene Jewell: Maybe we need to keep a list of which grids are running dev code so when we hear complaints we can tell them to talk to their grid owner.
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: without Melanie
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: there would be no OSgrid
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: bottom line
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: or not as good a one anyway
[12:15] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: OH
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: she has saved this grid more times than i can tell
[12:15] Serene Jewell: Thank you, Melanie if you are reading this!
[12:15] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: When I setup Refuge Grid, one of its intended purposes was to test dev code.  We currently run strictly stock code with no changes other than fine tuned configs and setup
[12:15] hippie.balbozar @avirtualworld.org:8002: hello everyone
[12:15] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: hello Hipp
[12:15] Serene Jewell: Hi Hippie
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: yes everyone running dev code is part of the official test grid
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi hip
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: grids without borders :)
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:16] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: the official test hypergrid ;)
[12:16] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: the avination code being merged is the exact code run on avination ?
[12:16] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: hi Hippie
[12:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes I wondered if the githud is purposely not posting revisions
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: I do have some suggestions
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: for the community at large
[12:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:16] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: kool
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: if you are not happy with our level of communication
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: the community should form some kind of committee
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Zani, no. They still have some things that are unique to Avination.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: whos job it is to find out the latest skinny
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: and inform the world
[12:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: good idea
[12:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: like a test team reporter
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I could do that
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: hypergridbusiness.com is a good outlet
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: maybe work with them
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: or some other portal
[12:17] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Community Liaison
[12:17] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: I just dont have the time
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: and most of the core devs do not either
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: its not that we dont want to inform the wrold
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: we are just very overwhelmed with this project and life in general
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Usually too many items on the todo list. :)
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: but if the community can get something together
[12:19] Serene Jewell: Who currently writes or blogs about opensim dev details? Aine, Hypergrid Business, who else?
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: i will work to acommidate that group however i can
[12:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: kool
[12:19] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I know it is a massive undertaking, a project like this is not an easy thing
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: I want the community to be as involved as they want the devs to be more involved in communications
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: it cant be a one way road
[12:19] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: true
[12:20] Serene Jewell: Well, there are more than 30,000 active users of opensim not counting the ones behind a firewall, so there will likely be multiple representatives. :-)
[12:20] Serene Jewell: It's more communities than community.
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: absolutely
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: the community is there
[12:20] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I do think that with as many users as there actually is, a greater community involvement is necessary and important
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: we just need some dedicated people to step up
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: and make it happen
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: in a consistent way
[12:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: I could stepup to the plate
[12:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: im retired
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: great, get the ball rolling
[12:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: if there is something the developer group or avacon can do to help
[12:20] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: Zeth need your e-mail
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: please do
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: you guys should contact Joyce
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: at Avacon
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: http://avacon.org
[12:21] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:21] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: I would but technically I am like the plate Bob mentioned lol
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: I am heavily involved in Avacon was well
[12:21] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: flat and empty hehe
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: the avacon grid is dedicated to the promotion of Opensimulator
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: ie: OSCC
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: and mroe
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: more*
[12:21] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: nice
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: http://conference.opensimulator.org
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: btw we are in progress website redesign
[12:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: we could really benefit in the realtion
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: i know everyone is griping about the locked down wiki
[12:22] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: relation
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: its unfortunate I had to do that
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: but the spam bots were winning the war
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: but a complete website redesign for opensimulator.org will happen at sometime in the hopefully near future
[12:22] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: we do appreciate all you do Neb, and how much work goes into all this
[12:22] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Just when you think you win that race, they get faster and smarter bots it seems
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: but i have no firm time frames at this point
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and not enough to show you guys yet
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but what we have is a nice start
[12:23] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: grand
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and will be based on typo3
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: I know a lot of the time things feel dead
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: but i can assure you things are far from dead
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: if the community can bridge the communication gap
[12:24] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... funny name for a web based project. I wonder how many typos are in typo3.  ;)
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: I think we will be in a much nicer place in a year from now
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya its not my favorite package on earth typo3
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: but its very secure
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: and allows us to do some cool things
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: we can also thank Melanie once again for most of this hard work
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: she is spearheading this as well
[12:25] Linda Lightfoot: hey Rocky!
[12:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I only do some simple web stuff for myself and occasionally for a grid. I don't know much about a lot of the "new fangled" web dev tools.
[12:25] Rocky Road: hey Linda
[12:26] Rocky Road: hor are you today
[12:26] Rocky Road: how
[12:26] Linda Lightfoot: I am fine and you?
[12:26] Rocky Road: good ty
[12:26] Linda Lightfoot: I have been exploring things, but I better should go to work
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: so ya thanks a lot Bob and anyone else who will try to get something going
[12:27] Rocky Road: lol
[12:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: your welcome Neb
[12:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: thanks for the communications
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: no problem sorry I got here so late
[12:27] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: to be part of the solution is most important
[12:27] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I'll discuss with Bob and see what we can put together to get things off the ground from our ends
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: glad I was able to have some time to talk about this
[12:27] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: thankyou Neb, we do appreciate it
[12:28] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes indeed so Zani
[12:28] Serene Jewell: I will bring the communications idea up in Opensim Virtual. It's the largest and most active opensim discussion I'm aware of. It's a good idea - more communication.
[12:28] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: we all apreciate the hard work the devs do, and I know very well how hard it is doing development work
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya there is no reason this cant be a multi prong approach
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: it almost has to be
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: since i think most of this problem is there isnt really a single place we can inform everyone
[12:29] Serene Jewell: Opensim Virtual is 1,653 members. https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/116284417302234467612
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: many opensim users are so far removed from opensimulator
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: may not even realize they are using opensimulator
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: they are using 3rd Rock Grid or Kitely
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: as an example
[12:29] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: That g+ is probably the most active from what I've seen so far
[12:29] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: maybe a g+ dedicated and advertised
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: I think maybe we need representatives
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: who pass this info along
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: to various outlets
[12:30] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: just having 1 place is no better than the current setup
[12:30] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: to you hypergrid etc
[12:30] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: yes
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: the info needs to spread
[12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, first hand information is always the best
[12:30] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and it will attract many
[12:30] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: could do with a forum maybe too that is kept up to date
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: needs some kind of coalition
[12:30] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: assumptions are always a bad thing
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: opensimworld
[12:31] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: exatly Seth
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: could be helpful place
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.opensimworld.com
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: if you are not familar you should be
[12:31] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: ok
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: get your regions listed
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Personally, I don't like forums.
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: go get a kiosk and hud
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: opensimworld is a hypergrid search portal
[12:31] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: I got my regions in opensimworld.com listed
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: where you can also list events and info
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: its awesome
[12:32] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: forums have their uses for infos but can be a pain yes
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: they could be a good partner
[12:32] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: great
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: hypergridbussiness
[12:32] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: yes
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: also a good partner
[12:32] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: and my events in hypevents. in http://hypevents.net/
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: Avacon
[12:32] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: got that one also,, ok
[12:33] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I need to head out, but was a good meeting today I think
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: ok yes I unfortunately have many things to do as well
[12:33] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: Forums mostly its too many fights. I like communties in G+ I have not seen any fight in 9 months of using it
[12:33] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I hope everyone has a great week
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: i will not be super available during my trip
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: 6 to 9 hour time difference for USA
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: and busy schedule
[12:34] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Have a good/safe trip Neb and fill us in when you get back
[12:34] Serene Jewell: Have a great trip! Thanks for being here.
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I want to get back to a project I was working on just before this meeting.
[12:34] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: have a great trip Neb :)
[12:34] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: have a great time and be safe
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: thanks keep in touch though
[12:34] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: thats great Neb in cold Denmark or was it Sweden?
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: let me know how its going
[12:34] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002 waves and departs
[12:34] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: come back well Neb
[12:34] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: okie
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: and if i can accomidate any request I will try my best
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: thanks guys
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: talk soon
[12:34] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: super thank you
[12:34] Lucy.Afarensis @afarensii.duckdns.org:9000: bye all been fun
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: sure anytime
[12:35] Zani.Zanadu @avirtualworld.org:8002: tc all :)
[12:35] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: thanks for the chat Neb
[12:35] Isis.Ophelia @arcanavirtual.noip.me:9000: take care all, I am out now, have a good evening or night
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: bye for now :)
[12:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: tc
[12:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, am out too
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like this meeting is over so I'll close out the meeting log.
[12:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye
[12:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: okies
[12:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: take care all
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye to everyone who is leaving.
[12:36] Paula Parsons: bye
[12:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and Zeth I will be sending some info
[12:36] Bob.Solo @avirtualworld.dyndns.org:8002: and I need to run for a few also
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to go now too. My cat is wanting attention from me.
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