Chat log from the meeting on 2015-12-22

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[11:02] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I supsect attendance will be light again today but that is ok :)
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well. les speoplke betetr chat ? :O
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: did you read the news about SL get more bones ?
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Kayaker
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: or short meeting. :)
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea I saw that
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: will probably be a bit before we see that in opensim im guessing
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I woudl say, it feels like a second blooper like the did with mesh clothing. already read about talk that you need to make 3 animations for different size avatars
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: still it opens the doors
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: im sure it will be rough at first, that is normal
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I could see different animations for extra bones vs standard bones but not based on size difference in avatar.
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: i see a ballon...
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hey Ubit
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: ooos its radms :)
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert :)
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I think the are to late with it Ubit
[11:07] Robert Adams: hello all
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi robert
[11:07] Ubit Umarov: Hi robert
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: more bones is not making it cheaper
[11:08] Ubit Umarov: more bones more attachment points.. etc
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: question I have is will an opensim viewer even get this code
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: like singularity
[11:09] Ubit Umarov: fs will get it
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya but if only 1 viewer has support
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: thats going to make for a very ugly world
[11:09] Robert Adams: they have to add the new avatarr rendering code... it is really all happening in the viewer
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: id almost rather not support it at this point
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity isn't getting any changes these days so not likely they will add bones support any time soon.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: if the viewers are going to skew
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SIngualrity is already running behind i think with new releases
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i will not change to firestorm
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: personally
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: hope we don't need to change much on regions code
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i mean i use it
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: but it wont ever really become my primary viewer
[11:10] Ubit Umarov: unless they also change protocols etc
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Unfortunately I've found FS is the only viewer that seems to have current code and is stable.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya if it changes protocols too
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: then its even worse
[11:11] Robert Adams: I started to try and break the avatar rendering code out of the viewer... didn't get far... it is a serious intertwined mess
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: then we will have a problem
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i dont see how we could support it if it does
[11:11] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        e095f51: 2015-12-19 15:29:51 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: without cutting off all old viewers
[11:11] Ubit Umarov: fs does not have coders willing to suport opensim it its 2 hard
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: even firstorm opensim support is spotty at best
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: be it the only option at the moment
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity hasn't fixed the breakage in their viewer that was introduced into their viewer some versions back.
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: im not instilled with great confidence we will get this functionality anytime soon
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: they did apply my patch for visualparamenters..
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: you never know someone might really really want it
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: and do it
[11:12] Ubit Umarov: singu alpha works here again
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i am more worried about singularity and others
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: at this point
[11:12] Robert Adams: I think OS should support the bones and let the viewers fend for themselves... we shoul move ahead
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: how though without viewer support
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: we dont care about bones
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: how do we move forward if we cant test it
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: chicken and egg
[11:13] Robert Adams: only be a real problem if a new bone avatar crashes old viewers
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: if there is no protocol change  things should work
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: but we need to wait and see
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: What sort of changes would need to be made in OS to support bones and would it break compatibility with viewers?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: If you want more bones. you can better use one of the new worlds
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: someone has to update libomv im sure too
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: possible ask FS a prototype viewer with that etc
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: thats easier though
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: we do not care about bones!!!
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: they are inside the mesh asset that we ignore
[11:14] Robert Adams: if the addition is just more parameters in a hash array, old viewers just won't see the changes
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: ya i imagine LL has to keep it somewhat backwards compatible as well
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: attach points .. lets see
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: or risk uprising
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: sl doesn't need backwards
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: it forces viewer updates
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: well i mean it likely wont crash old viewers
[11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm. well neb. LL is going to cut off old viewers anyway
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: tpvs it doesnt
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i mean upsetting the TPV community
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: well guess we need to wait
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: my worries are protocol changes
[11:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that is where LL is going to cut-off old viewers
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: most of those changes are transparent to regions
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: adn as robert said..  they can do it in a away even old viwers don't die
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well maybe :)
[11:17] Robert Adams: fingers crossed
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: yea hopefullt it works out favorably for all
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: don't know what they will do with a attachment point 41 :)
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: looks interesting for sure
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: avn had something like this sometime ago :p
[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ubit, the answere is 42 :)
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya they will need to get creative with attachment point names :)
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: you can see code related to that on mesh upload code :)
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: Left Wing, Right Horn
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:19] Ubit Umarov: a section named Skeleton :)
[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: singularity already up to chromium ?
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: chromium?
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: I doubt singularity is up on anything at this point
[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, SL is dumping webkit
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh i doubt any tpvs have that yet
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: does FS?
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Chromium is a code name for an SL release?
[11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, but UkaDo seems to be up to 4.0 already in a blog
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: ya singularity hasnt been updated in some time
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: possible there is new code in their repository
[11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: https://bitbucket.org/chromiumembedded/cef
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: that isnt in release but i doubt it has that
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing seems to get small updates now and then but its still unstable.
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: it works well enough
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: they did some work on alpha
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: we use Singularity mostly for Encitra
[11:21] Ubit Umarov: but not much
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: viewer stability has more to do with your hardware
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: than the actual viewer I find
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it my opensim viewer. because FS is in use for SL
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: at least it does work here again
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Sing Alpha for Linux crashes very soon after you log in without having to even do anything.g
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: and does parcel minimap nicelly
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: They still haven't fixed hat yet.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: see linux singularity is perfect for me
[11:22] Ubit Umarov: and doesn't crash with large regions as fs does
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I've been in large vars with FS for Linux wihout issues
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i dont use the latest alpha though either
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i know the latest alpha is broken
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: the release should be ok though
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think FS worked in my time betetr on linux 64bit then singulairty. well linux and viewers. you never know when and wich one works
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: its the one i use to run in debug mode :)
[11:23] Ubit Umarov: well fire it .. check some code and  give up ;)
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: for me its more about the UI configuration than stability
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: FS does have much better shadows though
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but crash wise, they all the same for me
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: none are less crashy than other
[11:24] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Only thing in singulairty. i wish ith where V3 design. singularity is pretty confusing this day because old layout
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: drivers and hardware are a big influence on stability
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I will give Sing release a try and see if is any less crashy han Sing Alpha.
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yes alpha is totally broken
[11:24] Ubit Umarov: but that is a singu point.. keeping old look
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: do not even try it
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: its very well known its completely busted
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: that is way ppl like it
[11:25] Ubit Umarov: ..why..
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: I think they have either lost interest or RL is very busy i guess
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I didn't really like the UI changes in latest LL viewers. I've started getting used to it when I use the LL viewer in SL.
[11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: after Singularity Viewer (64 bit) 1.8.6 (6157) i only did hear problems. and i think never seena new version except alphas
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i stopped asking, it was feeling hostile
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: i reported a bug on irc..
[11:26] Ubit Umarov: no answer :)
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: As soon LL fixt thag bug in there viewer with UI scaling i want to try to switch from FS to SL one. it's faster in graphics and allow me to run shadows better
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: but im worried
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: what viewer Ubit?
[11:27] Ubit Umarov: seems LL is going to do changes on viewer code incompatible with us
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ah in the opensl IRC?
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: ( the bug report was on singu irc channel )
[11:28] Robert Adams: some of the other viewers have better people doing shaders
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: oh ya
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: try maybe ping Liru directly
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: then duck :P
[11:28] Ubit Umarov: that never worked well for me :)
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: haha ya
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well I hope they come back around
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: my patch got in bc sianna saw it
[11:29] Robert Adams: what changes do you think are coming, ubit?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: don't know robert :(
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: have you asked in #opensl ?
[11:29] Ubit Umarov: nopes
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: oz is there somtimes
[11:30] Ubit Umarov: well don't think we should be seem much by lindens :p
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: perhaps, i dont know what their feelings on libomv are
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: at this point
[11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Also LL is going to add some secure money protocul. can be problem for soem .. not many i think
[11:31] Ubit Umarov: think its better they ignore we exist ;)
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but we are basically the sole maintainers of libomv now
[11:32] Robert Adams: someday we'll have to split from SL, but, for the forseeable future, we should try to keep compatibility with them
[11:32] Robert Adams: probably until on of the undercover viewer projects come to some fruition
[11:33] Kayaker Magic: I've done some testing of llCastRay, does anyone here know what the difference is between V1 and V3 of llCastray?
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: If we do split with SL we could have even more of a problem with having a viewer that fully supports OS.
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: S/If/When(?)/
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ubit and i were discussing raycasting earlier
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: Robert did you still plan on exploring bulletsim raycaster at some point for various uses?
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ubode is using its raycaster for stuff now
[11:34] Kayaker Magic: V1, the old default one is very slow in var-regions now.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: the C# caster is heavy
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and should be replaced with physics casters at some point
[11:35] Kayaker Magic: V3 of llCastray is faster, has some new bugs.
[11:35] Robert Adams: yes.... now with all the sitting and placement improvements, BUlletSim needs raycast
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: How is vehicle support in BS these days?
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: nice ya that would be great
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: its great andrew
[11:36] Kayaker Magic: And V3 crashed a sim once on my, have not ben able to reproduce that...
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: swing by Sisyphus and grab the orange McLaren
[11:36] Ubit Umarov: for sits you need also to "clone" ubOde code... those are on the module
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there are some other vehciles there as well
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. i'll have to try again with a couple of vehicles I have.
[11:37] Ubit Umarov: ( but are raycasts basicly )
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: although they aren't cars.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: ya ive only focused on cars
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the flying vehicles ive seen are not totally physics
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and are a bit heavy
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a touring balloon and a flying sleigh.
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002 flüstert: yeah, but do the work with move to target or ?
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: I've forgotten. I gave up trying to get them working until physics matured.
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: baloon should be very doable
[11:39] Robert Adams: MoveToTarget and ApplyForce are my first projects... then raycast
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: nice Robert, look forward to testing :)
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on how it was scripted. Bouyancy may have come in to play. I'll have to check.
[11:40] Robert Adams: hopefully have some time this weekend after presents have been opened :)
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: i am hoping to setup a clone of Sisyphus for ubode testing before the end of the year
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: maybe call it newton :)
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: apply force sounds familiar
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: he meant the apple thing
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: actually i meant fig :P
[11:41] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i was also dreaming earlier about being able to run both physics engines at once in the same simulator
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and being able to specify by name or script which engine the object uses
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: I like to really complicate things
[11:42] Robert Adams: I'm building three regions next to each other... same code but BulletSim, ODE, and ubODE :)
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: :D
[11:42] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: mostly so i could easily test both engines
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: withotu a lot of teleporting
[11:42] Robert Adams: would be nice to have in-world physics unit tests
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: also then you could sort of cherry pick the best of both
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: anyway i was mostly just dreaming out loud haha
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: maybe a region module for that Robert?
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: that could be used in either engine?
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: MoveToTarget, put that on the back burnr. It has always been useless. Only use is to try and fool it into doing other things...
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: osBenchmark module :)
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: well i do see a lot of mix of vehicles and other functions
[11:45] Ubit Umarov: that are suposed to be used with vehicles active
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: looking at calendar next meeting would be 29th
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: so no reason to really postpone it or anything
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I will show up if anyone else does that is great :)
[11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhuh
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: On a different topic someone asked me if in Opensim groups, does the role ability check off for Always allow 'Create Objects' function?
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: as far as I know all the groups stuff works correctly
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: role wise
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: we are heavily reliant on it in Encitra
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: the apply button doesnt always work in groups though
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. does that apply to both xmlrpc groups and core, or just for core?
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes you have to hit the OK button
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: or stuff wont apply
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: like just hitting apply and closing window go back stuff isnt applied
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: not sure where that bug lives, but it sucks
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, that sounds a bit like a viewer issue.
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats only gotcha i experience with groups and roles
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: otheriwse it seems to enforce everythign
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll pass that info along. ty
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC and Encitra i am heavily reliant on this stuff
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: Avacon too
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: well I hope everyone has a nice holiday
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: Happy holidays, everyone.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I dont have much planned msyelf just day at home with the fam mostly :)
[11:54] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nah, not much intressting outside
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I should make a plan to work on some electronics projects for a change over the holidays. Have a couple things I want to finish up.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: nice, ive been messing with my raspberry pi collection
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Collection? :P
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: been working with some people in the opensim-arm irc channel
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: err opensuse-arm
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: trying to get tumbleweed working correctly on the pi2
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: its a mess
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a 1B, want to get a 2B and am after a Pi Zero if I can catch when they are available.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: you can order a zero now
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: not in stock.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: but it will probably be a few weeks before you get one
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: some places still let you order
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: just have to wait for stock to replenish before they ship
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, but some of those places probably want too much in shipping. Crazy to pay about $12 shipping for a $5 item
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: my B+ took like a month to arrive
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i saw there ws a project for an addon board for raspberry pi
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: for m.2 sata
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and some other stuff
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: those things are made form SOCs  the manufacter considers obsolete now :)
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I almost got one from Adafruit but missed them by a few minutes. When they restocked I was out of the house and they were gone by the time I got home about a half hour later.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: my raspberry pi2 is great though its actually very fast
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: totally useable as a desktop
[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: n2-sata for pi ? the pi is to slow for it i think
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: nice little dev machines
[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: just ssd ata interface is enough
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I just use my Pi for developing software for AVR microcontrollers at the moment.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: its more about power consumption
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: the m.2 addon
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: only caught my eye cause i have 2 128gb m2 drives sitting here from my dead laptop
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:59] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ah
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: turn them into little NAS node or something
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: owncloud dump
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: i have owncloud running on my B+
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: to a 64gb usb stick
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: kind of cool
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: no matter where i am my machine could backup files instantly to my owncloud instance
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: See you later. I'm going back to dealing with time zones for some work I'm doing related to event listings.
[12:12] Ubit Umarov: well have to put back the region texture somehow for that ossl funtion
[12:13] Ubit Umarov: what a waste of grid disk
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