Chat log from the meeting on 2015-12-15

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[10:58]  Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[10:59]  Kayaker Magic: I have a problem I wwas going to turn in as a Mantis, but it changes from grid to grid.
[11:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: What is really improved in 0.8.2.1 i do not see any need to install that version
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: There is fixes for attachments
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: mostly
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: what kind of problem Kayaker
[11:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That where already in 0..8.2.0 right ?
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so Richardus
[11:01]  Kayaker Magic: In Kitely it now takes llCastRay >600 ms to run in 0.8.2.0 but here it is a more reasonable time, sort of like it used to be before 0.8.2.0 in Kitely
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: thats the whole point of adding a version lol
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: if it didnt change why would we change the number?
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm wierd not sure Kayaker
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: there was some changes to it
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: you can change the version you run in OpenSim.ini
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: for llCastRay
[11:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, the need to be more clear about what is improved compared to 0.8.2
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: it was to fix an incompatibility
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: that came up at OSC
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: OSCC*
[11:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i would swear the fixt that already in 0.8.2
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: nope
[11:02]  Kayaker Magic: I asked at Kitelty what version of llCastRay they were using and they said V1, the same one as they were using before
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: it was all in post-fixes
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: diva was going to update it but then she said she would wait
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and do new version instead
[11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh well, good time to update/ it's only the code that need to be replaced
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: did they change physics engines or anything Kayaker?
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: xengine hasnt changed much if at all
[11:04]  Kayaker Magic: I do recall hearing at one of these meetings, someone had a complete version of llCastRay that was huge and slow...
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I guess no one is coming today
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm well we have v2 and v3 now
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: while they are improved
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: they are crazy slow compared to SL
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and not super accurate
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: many things seem to be able to trip it up
[11:05]  Kayaker Magic: Kitely lets you change between ODE and BulletSim, and there  didn't used to be a difference in llCastRay
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: but its fairly good
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: yea i was mostly just wondering if anything else changed
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: that could maybe be the cause
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: v1 behavior should not have changed
[11:06]  Kayaker Magic: V1 of llCastray was easy to trip up also, but it wasn't so slow. Which castray is running here on Wright Plaza?
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: i am not sure id have to look 1 sec
[11:08]  Lucy Afarensis: No meeting today ?
[11:08]  Kayaker Magic: Yes!
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no one showed up but us so far :)
[11:08]  Kayaker Magic: I am already bugging Neb about a Mantis I want to submit
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: christmas time everyone disappears :)
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nahm neb. cannot believe there so many bad guys :)
[11:09]  Kayaker Magic: InWorldz has some help from PhysX to do llCastRay, and it is blindingly fast there.
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Wright plaza doesnt have llCastRay version set
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: so its whatever the default is
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: castray is nasty thing to understand
[11:11]  Kayaker Magic: I am running a timing test, do you see the results?
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: the default appears to be v1
[11:11]  Lucy Afarensis: yes
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: so i can safely say this region is v1 as well
[11:11]  Kayaker Magic: 30ms is crazy slow, but on some grids it is 100ms and on Kitely it  is >600ms!!!!!????
[11:12]  Kayaker Magic: They say they have the default V1 llCastRay on Kitely
[11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: blames cloud computing ?
[11:12]  Kayaker Magic: lol
[11:15]  Kayaker Magic: I just ran the timing test on InWorldz (using PhysX for physics) and lLCastRay takes only 3ms there.
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: InWorldz is not opensimulator
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: do not compare it to opensim
[11:15]  Kayaker Magic: It has taken around 25ms here until recently.
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: the code is very different
[11:16]  Kayaker Magic: Yeah, they say the same thing in InWorldz.
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya nothing wrong with that
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: but the code diverged long ago
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: so its not really a fair comparison at this point
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: we just do things differertly
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: I can tell you though that is because of xengine
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: and how it handles threading
[11:17]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: I hope the whole HG friends, IM offline get fixt soon. it's important part
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: its terrible
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: we really need a new script engine
[11:17]  Kayaker Magic: How Xengine handles threading here or in InWorldz?
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: here
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: they dont have xengine
[11:17]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That too neb.
[11:17]  Kayaker Magic: Yeah, I know they don't have the llSleep problem....
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we need something like that that can handle threading in more sane way
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: i do not beleive their engine is cross platform though
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: it is windows only
[11:18]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. booting sdims with 0.8.2.1
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: or i should say for .net
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe eventually that will work on linux
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: not now though
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: that is the problem we have
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we could make an engine that is comparible to inworldz
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: but it would only work on windows, or only on linux
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to make a truly cross platform solution to this problem
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: it can be done though im sure
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: avination has a way improved engine
[11:20]  Kayaker Magic: Switch to Java!
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: but it only runs on mono
[11:20]  Kayaker Magic: (hehe)
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: so its not suitable for core
[11:20]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Bleh. mono. am complete done with mono
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: lol it works good enough
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: OSCC ran on mono :)
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ist mostly a matter of using what you know
[11:22]  Kayaker Magic: I'm happy with mono.
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: there is really very little difference in performance
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: generally the performance diference is a result of lack of expertise
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: in the platform
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: more than the platform itself
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: you should always use what feels most comfortable
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing wrong with that :)
[11:23]  Kayaker Magic: Just ran the timing test on SL, it takes 15ms to call llCastRay, more like I used to get here.
[11:23]  Lucy Afarensis: I'm running both on different servers works about the same
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: Kayaker i had a though
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: the xengine timer thing
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: might be a factor
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: MinTimerInterval = 0.08
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: its probably this
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: is why its faster here
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: than kitely
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: be the first thing to try anyway
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: if you even can
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: its in the [Xengine] sectino
[11:24]  Kayaker Magic: How come Kitely used to get faster results from llCastRay?
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: that i can not say
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: i am not a kitely user or even know how their system works
[11:25]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and you told kitley is extreme slow ?
[11:25]  Kayaker Magic: Yes, but I thought I would try it here and submit a mantis if the same thing happened.
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Oren is a core developer
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: that is fine
[11:25]  Kayaker Magic: As I wander the Metavers though, I get different results...
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: that is to be expected
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: probably forever
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:26]  Kayaker Magic: On a sandbox here in OSGrid I got 100ms
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: plaza?
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: or private?
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: you can use "Sisyphus" to test
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: its running mono 4.3
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: with Bulletsim
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: its a large var though
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: 1536x1536
[11:27]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh that is a nice var size. is that size working a bit this days ?
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: seems fine
[11:27]  Kayaker Magic: Paradise was where I tried it, Wave Beach
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: Sisyphus runs very well
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: thats my physics sandbox
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: i beat the hell out of it
[11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: whgat is Sisyphus ?
[11:28]  Kayaker Magic: I will try Sisyphus next
[11:28]  Lucy Afarensis: osgrid ?
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Sisyphus was punished by greek gods
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: to push a big stone up a hill for all eternity
[11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: how many prims did you fire into that var ?
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i had over 100k spheres once
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: someone turned on my rezzer and left
[11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: He's lucky the stone did not push him
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: 2 days later i noticed
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: it still had not crashed
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i was even able to log in and delete all the spheres
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and it recovered normally
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a picture
[11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Can you test 540000 prims ?:)
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/116133_physical_spheres_bulletsim.png
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: http://nebadon2025.com/screenshots/116133_physical_spheres_bulletsim2.png
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hehe that one
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: the entire sim was full of spheres
[11:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: if it works with 540000 prims it's really good and beat SL
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what viewer you use now neb ?
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: well once you get to a certain point
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: you dont even see all the movement anymore
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: its just too many updates
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: so you mostly just see a lot of static spheres
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: so, it's not the server possible but more bandwidth
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: and some very choppy movement
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: the viewer is only capaable of handling so many updates
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its very far from 100k
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: more like 20k maybe
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: if that even
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: it may even be below 10k
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to really know
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: you cant really track that many objects
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its just not possible
[11:32]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SOme smart code in the server that not send updates to avatars that are to far away mabye helps. and only start send it when you close enough ?
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: hardware is a factor
[11:33]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That explains also why the move modern things more client side
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: yes any FPS type game
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: would have very limited to no server side physics
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: mostly just object location tracking
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: with very limited amounts of objects
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: mostly just delivering variables
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: that inflluence the client side physics
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: also they fake stuff a lot
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: with scripted physics
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: and particles
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: its all about overwhelming you enough you dont notice
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: we could do that kind of stuff here too a bit
[11:35]  Kayaker Magic: I'm starting to think I don't want a physics enging, perhaps just a collision engine and scrited physics for things that want it.
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: it takes very skilled artists
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: to create that kind of stuff though
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: in convincing manner
[11:36]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: If we get rid of the SL viewer much more is possible
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: in time
[11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not want to say to much right now. but i expect next year we come back on it
[11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: in time yes
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its interesting what melanie was talking about
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: that sounds promising
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: have to see what comes of that
[11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: did i mis something neb ? i read so much this days
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: at OSCC she was on the viewer panel
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: she was saying they are creating a new viewer
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: with a modern game engine
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: they are exploring different options
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: very light on details so far
[11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha.. the ... viewer i guess
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: but it sounds good
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: not many showed up today :)
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: I will show up next week to
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: if you guys want we can meet
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: i know everyone is busy with holidays
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: there wont be much in terms of opensim updates im sure over the next couple weeks
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure Ubit will continue his work no doubt
[11:40]  Kayaker Magic: I'll be visiting with poor bandwidth and a laptop, might make it here....
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ok well no worries if you cant
[11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Then i hope ubit is shooting the right stuff in the sky :)
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: looks like he is working on parcel stuff now
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: parcel bans and i guess calculating land area for that
[11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: DOes he implement the parcel privacy option tou you now hav ein sl ? peolle seems intressted in that
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: yep
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: he is working on it
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: im not sure its 100% yet
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: but im sure it is mostly working
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: some math errors i think
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: sometimes the privacy is extending beyond borders
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: because of rounding issues
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: or something
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: he is trying to figure it out
[11:43]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: that's funny because those settings should be integer math ...
[11:43]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: parcel borders are along flat integer values
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: its non square parcels
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: that are the problem i suspect
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: you can make crazy patterns
[11:44]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: are there round parcels?
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: no but they can have more than 4 sides
[11:44]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: no, tetris parcels
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: L shapes
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: or O shapes
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: etc..
[11:45]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: i thought you can only cut along numbers every 4 m
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:45]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: grin, O shape in tetris would be mean.
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but you can make non square shape parcels
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: you could make a parcel that is a +
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: also it joins parcels
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: owned by same person
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: even if they dont touch
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: its complicated
[11:45]  Lucy Afarensis: Been interesting but I must leave early
[11:45]  Lucy Afarensis: bye
[11:45]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: sure, but the borders would be on numbers dividable by 4
[11:46]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ciaoo Lucy
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I can only really say what ive been seeing him say in IRC
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: and from his patch comments
[11:46]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye lucy
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: i havent actually looked at his code
[11:47]  Wright Plaza reception desk linked shouts: I am sorry, you have taken too long to make a choice. Please click on me again to re-select the menu
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: sheera I suspect some of this parcel stuff
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: has to do with landing spot too maybe
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: its not just the parcel boundry possible that is the problem
[11:49]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ok, I guess he'll figure it out ^^
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: or maybe when you are clicking on the map too to teleport
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: hey Ubit
[11:50]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.9.0.0 Dev        7d8b783: 2015-12-05 08:30:30 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:50]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi Ubit :-)
[11:50]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi ubit
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: you can explain now :)
[11:50]  Ubit Test: (oops a meeting :) )
[11:50]  Ubit Test: hi
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: I was just relaying kind of what you were doing with the parcel issues
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: but i also dont fully know myself even
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: not enough to explain it anyway
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:51]  Ubit Test: well last changes where math fix/simplification
[11:51]  Ubit Test: but i did changes on overall regions access
[11:52]  Ubit Test: we had diferent criteria about telebugs landpoins even bans in several places on code
[11:52]  Ubit Test: so did tried to make them identical...
[11:52]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: quite a bit of cleanup then ...
[11:52]  Ubit Test: access check on Query to region...
[11:53]  Ubit Test: then again on newclient
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:53]  Ubit Test: and on agent makeroot the excution of telehubs and lanpoints.. if active
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i know there are certain times those fail a lot for me
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: expecially on login
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: to my own regions
[11:54]  Ubit Test: well i changed a few rules
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i seem to not always land at the hub or landing spot
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: but at like 128/128
[11:54]  Ubit Test: now gods and estate manager are nor affected by bans or telehubs etc
[11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sofar telehub works fine for me.
[11:54]  Ubit Test: err and region owners
[11:54]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: would there be a possibility of checking the accessibility of a region or better even of a parcel via OSL script?
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: but only when god mode is active?
[11:55]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: like in a teleporter script
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: please do not make it do that when god mode is off
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be a disaster
[11:55]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: also i can TP to my own parcel without ending at the telehub
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: telehubs should always work when god mode is disabled
[11:55]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: to know in advance if the target is online and capable of receiving an avatar
[11:55]  Ubit Test: well i read the active permitions..
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: just being a god should not be crieria for ignoring telehub
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be a complete break in my opinion
[11:56]  Ubit Test: and if you do break a telehub ?
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: im definitely reliant on that functionality
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: being a god in literally like every grid
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: means i would never land at a telehub ever
[11:56]  Ubit Test: yeap you wont
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: noooo
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: seriousl;y
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: do not do that
[11:57]  Ubit Test: its a needed safe issue
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: it should be you turn god mode on
[11:57]  Ubit Test: i was like this neb
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: then it works
[11:57]  Ubit Test: i think
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: nOOO
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: you have to ctrl+alt+g
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: then it ignores
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: please do not change this
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: you are breaking it if you do
[11:57]  Ubit Test: i think godlike already skiped checks
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: it worked
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i use it every day
[11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Never found that option ok know it where there. but when your at the telehhub you can TP around the sim
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: 1000 times a day
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: it needs to work that way
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: it always has
[11:58]  Ubit Test: welel godlike only is checked on access control
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: ok well as long as if you have god mode turned off
[11:58]  Ubit Test: then its current permissions
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i land at a telehub
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i wont complain
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: if that changes I am going to protest for sure
[11:59]  Ubit Test: but i see god active by default on grid gods here
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: we are very reliant on this working
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: its not
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: im a grid god and my god is turned off in viewer
[11:59]  Ubit Test: ohh yes it is
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: i only activate it when i need it
[11:59]  Ubit Test: i changed with dan
[11:59]  Ubit Test: it has been like that
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: you cant just change this stuff
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: people are reliant on it
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: not without discussing it first
[12:00]  Ubit Test: ( i actually didn't change objects rights.. it was like that )
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: its litereally always worked this way
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: god mode needs to be off by default
[12:00]  Ubit Test: well on objects acording to dan grid gods can change without asking in viewer
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: you can seriously destroy aregion accidentyly
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ive done it
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: having god powers on by default is asking for disaster
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: if i can do it
[12:01]  Ubit Test: i know.. messed up a swiming pool at avination :)
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: anyone can
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ive literally erased 1/2 a region
[12:01]  Ubit Test: but that is objcts...
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: on accident
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That is why i turn grid gods always off in the ini file. not sure why it seems enabled
[12:01]  Ubit Test: i was talking region access telehubs and landpoints
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: those need to work for gods
[12:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: or it's metropolis config i compare with that is doing it wrong
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have ctrl+alt+g enabled
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: if your bar is not green
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: telehubs should work
[12:02]  Entering god mode, level 255
[12:02]  Entering god mode, level 255
[12:02]  Ubit Test: well since i do read current permitions, guess the bypass is a side effect
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: its handy
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: otehrwise i can never test a telehub
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: unless i have an alt
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: that is insanely inconvienent for me
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and for lots of people
[12:03]  Ubit Test: but SL rules are no telehubs or landpoints for gods, region owners or estate managers
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt matter
[12:03]  Ubit Test: and thats how it is now in master
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: its been this way for ever in OpenSim
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: please dont just break it becasue of SL
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: seriously
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: bad reason
[12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh, it would suck if region owner cannot test the hub
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: not only region owner
[12:04]  Ubit Test: well don't see telehugs and landpoints as a break
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: anyone who is a estate manager it seems
[12:04]  Ubit Test: but as a security issue
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: Ubit
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: if you ctrl+alt+g
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: it ignores telehub
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: EASY
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: dont break this
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: this is how it has always worked
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i think even in SL
[12:04]  Ubit Test: and how do you do that if the region has a broken telehug and doesn't let u get in ?
[12:04]  Ubit Test: telehug? lol
[12:05]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: why is it a security issue for a god to land on a telehub?
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think in estate manager the telehib or landing point still worked
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: in secondlife. but long time ago
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: why would telehub prevent you acess?
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont understand
[12:05]  Ubit Test: not acordig to sl docs
[12:05]  Ubit Test: well bc this is opensim sim :p
[12:05]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: ah, ok, I can see it
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Sounds a design flaw from LL.
[12:06]  Ubit Test: it is not a design flaw.. makes all sense
[12:06]  Ubit Test: its a basic securtity thing
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: its super annoying for grid gods
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: can you make it so its only region gods?
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: and not grid gods?
[12:06]  Ubit Test: well being one as costs
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: i can see region gods and estate managers needing it
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: but as a grid god
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont need that
[12:07]  Ubit Test: i keep my fingers im my pockets at avn all the time :)
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: infact its very painful for me
[12:07]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it start to get confusing. one thing i know for sure. only telehub override in god mode.
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: you would think grid gods would have console access
[12:08]  Ubit Test: well as i said , current master, does not do them to gods, region owers or estate managers
[12:08]  Ubit Test: landpoint also doesn't work for land owner
[12:08]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Neb. grid gods sounds scary for me. that means the grid owner can mess on my server and sim ? that is how it sounds fo me
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: only if you enabled it
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a setting to allow or disallow grid gods in your region
[12:08]  Ubit Test: grid gods are needed on many grids
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: yea this is going to be so annoying
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: this seriously makes my job a lot harder
[12:09]  Ubit Test: and do have lots of work helping ppl and fighting griffers
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: i hate fixes that make things harder
[12:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i know. but some grid suse wrong settings i think
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: means i need to have 2 avatars always now
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: one who is a god and one who isnt
[12:10]  Ubit Test: well i do agree on the object edition
[12:10]  Ubit Test: that is scary
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: that really sucks
[12:10]  Ubit Test: at avn i did tried to change that.. but mel didn't allow
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: as far as I am conerned
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: we are replacing one security risk
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: with 10 others
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: not a good sollution
[12:10]  Ubit Test: mel wants full access so to fix griffing issues
[12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: we will be turning gods into griefers
[12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: as they all accidently destroy their regions
[12:11]  Ubit Test: well you also login at linux as root all the time?
[12:11]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: shouldn't there be backups?
[12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: if we do that for objects that is
[12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i never login to linux as root
[12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i disable root
[12:11]  Ubit Test: well gods its same thing :)
[12:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SHeera. backups are only good when you not need them :P
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: having god always active is a horrible idea
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we need options
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: if mel wont budge
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: we need options
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: to configure it how you want
[12:12]  Ubit Test: think it was always active already neb
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe some things
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: not all things
[12:12]  Ubit Test: unless i did cam with merge... i didn't change that
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i can say for sure a lot of stuff didnt work
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: unless i ctrl+alt+g
[12:12]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: I do backups often
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: if you are saying stuff will work without that
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: get ready to hear about people destroying other peoples sims
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: its going to happen
[12:13]  Ubit Test: well i asked dan abotu that and seems he things it has always been like that
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya some things probably were
[12:13]  Ubit Test: the worse.. objects edition for grid gods
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: im not so worried about gods
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: as Estate managers
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: you said estate mangers have same power?
[12:14]  Ubit Test: only on telehubs and landpoints
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ok good
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess thats not so bad then
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: i was more thinking objects was extending to estate managers too
[12:14]  Ubit Test: objects is another issue i didn't change...
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: that would have been disasterouis
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: still the telehub thing is annoying more than anything
[12:15]  Ubit Test: i changed region access... no bans for those privs
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: it annoys me when i have god mode enabled
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: you have to understand
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: Encitra has no LL terrain
[12:15]  Ubit Test: i also don't like it
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: this is seriously going to screw me up bad
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: we have Mesh terrain
[12:15]  Ubit Test: i also messed up regions
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: telehub failing == very very bad
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: sigh
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: this ruined my day
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: seriously
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont know what i will do
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: im going to have to ask crista to undo this
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: for encitra grid
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: guess thats probably my only option
[12:16]  Ubit Test: Neb.. this things are never final :)
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: well you have valid points
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i see what you mean
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to argue against that
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting not everyone has grid god level access
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i take that for granted
[12:16]  Ubit Test: sure im just defending what i did.. not that im enforcing it againts you
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i have that power on like 10 grids
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: so for me its super inconvienent
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: if literally every grid i can ever land at telehub
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: like OSCC
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: the keynotes
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: also no terrain
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: its at like -10000
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: the terrain
[12:17]  Ubit Test: well i did another change
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: no telehub means falling forever
[12:17]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: not forever. you stop at 0
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: this is same thing at Encitra
[12:18]  Ubit Test: do.. with that exceptions.. telehubs will always work...
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[12:18]  Ubit Test: landpoints will only work on some teleports
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: i have terrain set at like -1000
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: you fall forever lol
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: otherwise you see the terrain
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: in the water
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: unless you sink it super deep
[12:18]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lol. i culd set terrain lower then 0. but my avatar never did go lower then 0
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: there might be an option for that
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: im not sure now
[12:19]  Ubit Test: nahh you stop at -100 or -150 or -500 acording to physics engine lol
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: there might be differences too
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: between bullet and ode
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: even falling 100m under water feels like forever
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok. it's long ago i digged so deep. afraid i end at the other side of the world
[12:19]  Ubit Test: well put normal flat terrain there
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: you can see it
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: it visually scrtews up the model
[12:19]  Ubit Test: tps do check against' it
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: you can see the terrain through the water in certain conditions
[12:20]  Ubit Test: transp textures don't work on terrain ?
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: you end up seeing a big square
[12:20]  Ubit Test: never tested
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: from high photos
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: looking down
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: you see a huge squarte in the water
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: unless its like really really deep
[12:21]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes you always see a blue color
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: i have had people mention it and complain
[12:21]  Ubit Test: viewer places a ugly blue plane
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway im sure we can figure something out i guess
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe an option
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: how how telehubs are handled for gods
[12:22]  Ubit Test: yeap
[12:22]  Ubit Test: actually the objects thing also
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:22]  Ubit Test: its worse imo
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be great
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: id love to give students god powers
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: if i could prevent them from erasing everything
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: so they could do parcel stuff and other things
[12:23]  Ubit Test: well changing the objcts part will impact my checks on telehubs also
[12:23]  Ubit Test: well but im also not doing that for the estate people
[12:24]  Ubit Test: (owner and managers )
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: yea there is no reason we should not have more control than SL
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: its fine to have the options SL has
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: but that shouldnt be the only way
[12:26]  Ubit Test: well is also a security thing..
[12:26]  Ubit Test: giving some powers, so ppl don't need to ask for gods help all the time
[12:27]  Ubit Test: well worse is the bugs i added and still don't know about lol
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: we need to be able to delegate more than SL offers
[12:28]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well. late enough. going tom run
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thanks guys
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: good talks
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Sheera 1 sec
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i will send you the chat log
[12:28]  Ubit Test: well after that im tring to clean up some land issues
[12:29]  Ubit Test: some funtions where ok for 256m regions... terrible on large ones
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