Chat log from the meeting on 2015-11-03

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[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello :)
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: reminder I will be traveling for a few days, leave tomorrow until next monday
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks thinks he has developed a mild cold. :(
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to debug myself.
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi andrew, virus scanner needed :)
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: Nortons cold and flu..
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, indeed. Seems my antivirus software didn't catch this bug.
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: my blender pro-tip of the week > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuJldjg22Q8
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: Grid Fill
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: just learned about it :)
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: best thing since slice tool? lol
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: terrible blender joke
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok. saved
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: let me show you the image that brought it to my attention
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: you can see how powerful it can be
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Still need to find back how i did select a whole range of edges at once. :O
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: http://i.imgur.com/xG4u43f.gif
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: came across this on reddit
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: https://www.reddit.com/r/blender/comments/3q0uaz/i_just_discovered_grid_fill_almost_feels_like_i/
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: pretty nice tool
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not that one. there's a trick you can saelect many with one click
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: Grid fill? Nice one nebadon
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: to select a whole edge wiht one click
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hold alt
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: when you click the edge
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i think
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: let me test
[11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: no not grid fill , oh well so much to learn. like the mirror stuff
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: That could be a way to clean up Rhino models.
[11:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: have other bledner problems first
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya alt right mouse
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: with edge tool
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: select a single segment will select the entire edge
[11:12] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: very handy
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: mirror is also very easy
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: lots of tutorials on youtube
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, but sofar not need it
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: mirror is a modifier
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ive used it a bunch its great
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: I've seen videos about it. Really neat when using sculpt tool to sculpt both sides of a mirror object at the same time.
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ive done that accidently
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: as the sculpt mirror is usually on by default
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: which seems odd but it always is for me
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Turn it off and resave user prefs?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: this grid fill is key for sculpting
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: need a good topology for sculpt
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise all you get is a lot of uneven triangles
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: really good for terrain
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to make mesh terrain from scratch
[11:18] Shy Robbiani: for the same reason I prefere to work with quads on Avatars
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it all ends up triangles in the end thoug
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: so a good topoligy is key
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ether its quads or triangles
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: wether*
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: opengl is only capable of displaying triangles
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i primarily work with quads when i am cutting and molding the vertices still
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: then i convert everything to triangle before exporrt
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: so i dont get any suprises by the viewer having it do the conversion for me
[11:20] Shy Robbiani: regarding terrains... I'm still looking for a way to facilitate terrain mesh texturing
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: L3DT
[11:21] Nicolas Bungeeman: cool
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: would be my suggestion its amazing
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: get the indie dev version
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its 35$
[11:21] Nicolas Bungeeman: ok
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: well worth the money
[11:21] Nicolas Bungeeman: no
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: you can use free one though for smaller terrains
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: test it out
[11:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: L3DT is good. but, you still need to edit inworld. external terrain creatins never fit
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the pro is ncie cause you can split the model
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the free one has no split options
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: you could do that in blender of course
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: every good paint program can split
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its extra steps
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: well L3DT is great
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, terrain you need to edit inworld
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: cause you can set a buch of textures like you do in world terrain
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: set the elevation
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and zones
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: so you can have like 80 layers if you wanted
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: go from water to sand to rock to dirt to grass to mountains to snow caps
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and it makes all the bakes
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can bake in shadows or not
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can do specular maps
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and also normals
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: get really nice results
[11:23] Shy Robbiani: you talk about blender now?
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: no l3dt
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but it's a very nice progra,
[11:24] Shy Robbiani: ok... because I really dont know how to set this up in Blender, it could probably be done
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: well i was saying you can use blender to do the stuff the pro version of L3DT does
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: if you didnt want to shell out the 35$
[11:24] Larysa Firehawk: hi there
[11:24] Larysa Firehawk: Ghost Chat
[11:25] Shy Robbiani: aahh... right.... L3DT will be worth the 35 $ so
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: good to support the devs
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: they make a great tool
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: if you can :)
[11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi larysa
[11:25] Larysa Firehawk scratches her head.
[11:25] Larysa Firehawk: long chat distance
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: up stairs :)
[11:26] Larysa Firehawk: hmmm
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: so ya ive been busy in blender you can tell :)
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: learning a lot of neat stuff
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: anyone have any opensim things they wanted to discuss?
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: OSCC questions?
[11:27] vegaslon plutonian: Avatarfest in little under 2 weeks
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: Is last years OSCC build back up? My stuff still there?
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: I think we are doing a joint thing with Avatarfest and OSCC
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: Avacon that is
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: im not involved but heard about it
[11:28] vegaslon plutonian: yep trading parcels
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: I paid to be an exibitor, happy to do that again, so don't delete anything yet!
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya we are hanging on to everyones expos from last year
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: giving them a chance to keep or retrieve stuff
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: be sure to get in touch with joyce or someone sooner the better
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: let them know
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: if they havent contacted you already
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i wont be able to do any OSCC stuff while im traveling
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but as soon as I am back i can help
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to help out be sure to sign up as volunteer
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: http://conference.opensimulator.org
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: there may be some disruption in that site when im gone
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: but hopefully Crista and melanie and all are on it
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: Dreamhost is moving our server to new data center
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so if its gone one day dont panic :)
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: will be back
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: What is Avatarfest?
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: also Developers
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i would like you to be on the Panel
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: there will be a developer panel and if you can take part
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: that would be great
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: vegaslons I think you could take part in that also if you are interested
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: anyone who is commiting code
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: im not going to limit it to core developers
[11:33] vegaslon plutonian: I will think about it then
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: but also wont just let anyone
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think I could make it last time when the panel was being held.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: would be great if you can this year
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure i have the slot schedule yet
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: probably after lunch
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: on the 5th
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be my afternoon so that may work.
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: k cool that would be great
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: just trying to avoid having 2 or 3 devs is all
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: we make get everyone i dont know
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: but I think more is better
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: either way we have a lot to talk about
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: id just like a little more diversity on answers
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: There is a lot to do though so anyone who can help out, please do sign up as volunteer
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: and spread the word :)
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: I dont have a lot more updates
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: stuff is progressing, forced updates are still happening but no ETA
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: just kind of "When its ready"
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: will be after OSCC for sure
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: maybe even not this year
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: holidays are busy time
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: cant expect a lot to happen, especially critical stuff
[11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Is there much really being done on master right now or is most work going into the avination merge?
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: most is the merge branch
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but some is happening on master
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: critical fixes
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: go into both branches
[11:41] vegaslon plutonian: ya mostly stuff to just make testing easier between the two branches
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: some is even making it into 0.8.1-post-fixes
[11:41] Mary Lee: who is avination merging with?
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: they have 2-3 years of work
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: they are finally getting around to merging into the master code
[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, I've seen some commits to master but most seemed to be avi. I've been handing Ubit patches here and there since that seems to be the simpler path right now.
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its a huge undertaking
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: will fix a lot of things
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: will improve performance hopefully
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: may break some stuff
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: Will be a huge undertaking to summarize all the changes
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: it wont be perfect
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: but its happening
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: May. Hehehe. ;)
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of testing happening
[11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Haha, we had commented on breakage the other night. Mantis will probably go crazy for a while once the merge is done but it'll all be worth it I think.
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: so hopefully breakage is minimal at the actual merge
[11:42] Mary Lee: who is avination merging with ??
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: probably
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: Avination, as a grid, isn't merging with anyone.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: they are merging code Mary
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: not a company :)
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: All that's happening is that the avination codebase is being nerged into opesim core's codebase,
[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: The avination codebase is being merged into OS master.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: they have several years of modifications and improvements
[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Darn. Ninja'd
[11:43] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.3.0 Dev        dd9b06e: 2015-10-29 22:14:11 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: Avination has a lot of fixes, improvements, and treamlining.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: that never got back into the main code
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: Mary, avination donated about 2 to 3 years worth of code changes to Open Simulator. It is in a separate branch of the OS code.
[11:43] Mary Lee: cool
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: once its ready everyone will have it :)
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: One of the Avination fixes is the ability for vehicles to cross SOM borders.
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: right now only hard core tests are looking at it
[11:44] Kayaker Magic: *SIM
[11:44] Mary Lee: Melanie Milland the aviantion owner is a great lady
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: testers*
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, enough spoaghetti for a whilke to get straight again :)
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Mary, it was around 3,000 change entries to be summariezed, iirc
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit who isnt here
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: probably due to DST
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: is doing that work primarily
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: with support from Melanie and Diva and Misterblue and anyone who can help
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: I still have to finish writing some regression tests to demonstrate a problem in the current code.
[11:45] vegaslon plutonian: he is thrilled to be doing this merge, the avination code base never got this kind of testing
[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Ubit is kind of the lead on this project but anyone who wants to try helping is welcome obviously.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its good stuff for sure
[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: Testing, patches, whatever.
[11:46] Shy Robbiani: hat kind of problem, Andrew?
[11:46] Shy Robbiani: *what
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Shy, a problem with reading ini files where you have a duplicate section in one file.
[11:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Huh. The more recently read section should simply overwrite the older one.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: vampire bugs, they come to suck your time!
[11:47] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Ubit and I worked last night to find a problem related to any server that has aliases.  They are responsible for many of "Unable to verify identity" issues quite possibly.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i hate those ini bugs like that
[11:47] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: You talk about the OSSL section ? not see what culd be duplicated
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: you can stare at it for days
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, that's the bug. The later section should NOT wipe out the settings from the earlier instance, IMO
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and not see it
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hee seth, that's rare error but i have seen it when you try to tp long time ago
[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes, it should. And changing that would break my entire configuration. I depend on that functionality. It's worked aas it has for many years.
[11:49] OtakuMegane Desu: The worst bugs are when it's something tiny that makes the whole thing tilt to one side.
[11:49] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: QUick otaku run to the right side
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: honestly with how nini works
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure thats fixable
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, It working the way it does means you can't combine all ini files in to a single file and have it work without manually combining sections. It is a real pain.
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: nini is a pain in the ass when it comes to ordering
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: there isnt much you can do
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: accept bend over and deal with it
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:50] Shy Robbiani: aliases? I often have that "Unable to verify identity" issue
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: Perhaps we're talking about different issues. Does a newer section *completely* wipe out all value/key pairs from the old one?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: It combines sections automatically when they appear in different files being read. That makes the behaviour seem a bit inconsistent.
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, it does if it is in the same file.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is interesting
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i would have expected the same behaoir
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: wether its same ini or include ini
[11:51] Marcus Llewellyn: I depend on sections in different INI files having different options. It allows for a "master" ini with global settings, and then I can override those settings on a simulator basis from smaller more svelte INI files that are read in later.
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: We depend on merging settings from section with same name when in different included files.
[11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Sofar i understand , you mean the same cnfig options duplicated in the same ini ?
[11:52] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: There are a few causes for the Unable to verify identity.  Is someone in a region looks up a grid URI using an alias that is valid then that is one cause.  The bad URI is cached and results in a name verify failure.
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya like if you had 2 [Startup] sections
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: in OpenSim.ini
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: it breaks?
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: probably bad example
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: but you get the idea
[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: I wouldn't know what to do if there were two sections in one file either. :P
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: 2x [groups] ?
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, The second section will wipe out the values from the first time the section appears and you will just get the defaults for any settings that weren't included in the second instance of the [Startup] section
[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: All that *should* happen if you have two [Startup] sections in the same file is that existing key/value pairs are replaced by newer ones. That's expected behavior, IMO.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: but if you have a second [Startup] in GridCommon.ini
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, right
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: it does not?
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, correct
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is odd
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah
[11:53] Marcus Llewellyn: Okay, we're on sae page, then. Panic mode off. :D
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i would have expected same behavior
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: in both
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Marcus, :)
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: nini is wierd
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: include must filter
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: and concatinate
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: some extra step
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: that doesnt happen for single ini
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: I wrote my own ini reader and handled dealing with multiple instances of a section in a file.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: that sounds not fixable
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: but worth looking at
[11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: Bluewall is prolly the Nini authoritym if you can get his attention. He was managing a fork, since the main Nini project stopped being maintained.
[11:54] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: why do u want two of the same section in the same ini?
[11:54] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, I have a copy of Nini source on my machine. I was going to look at it further once I had some regression tests in place.
[11:55] OtakuMegane Desu: In a single file I'm not sure. But logically it should work the same as one file overriding a previous one.
[11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah, OpenSim has it's own Nini fork.
[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes alice. i don't know. but it can happen by mistake
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: Alicia, I was creating a master ini file by combining all ini's in to one single file.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: if you just flat copy paste all of the ini into one
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: that would be a disaster
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: serious
[11:56] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i would put that down as a bad config and find a better way to merge them
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: It's better to read it all in, and then let Nini (or your own lib) write out a whole new one, prolly.
[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: why would you do that ? it's betetr to s[plit it more
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure id consider this a opensim bug
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: No it isn't. You still have to config the ini's same as always. I just combine them after the config changes were made keeping in mind the order in which the files are included.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: more like nini isnt great
[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i wou;ld love to see groups settings seperate
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: but still have at it
[11:57] Samuel Greenway sorry about group invite thingy was clicking on something while listening...
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: worth a shot
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: I wound up rolling my own INI lib. Nini is weird and complicated, and has a few bad behaviors. I think Bluewall fixed a few of those, though.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya the way nini does ordering
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: makes my brain hurt
[11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Something to change/replace eventually perhaps?
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: I also wanted to handle melanie's "helper comments".. my lib does that.
[11:58] OtakuMegane Desu: Nini, not your brain. :)
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: not sure that is complicated stuff
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: cross platform also complicates doing our own
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: why nini is nice
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: someone did all the hard work
[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: Maybe it can be cleaned up some so it's not so weird then.
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: maybe something better exists though
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: for .net
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: since nini has been dead a while
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: has to be something
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: An INI file is just a nested associative array. That's easy. But Nini also does things like XML, which many grids depend on for remote config loading.
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: i think its one of those what shit sandwhich tastes best things
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: right we have many ways to server configs
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: xml from a secure web page from database
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dump ini and xml and use json
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: I dont think its that simple honestly
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: there are so many tools
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: for just our config needs, I prefer INI. It's a really nicely human readably format, and we don't need anything more complicated.
[12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Did not say it's simple :0
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: that would break a lot of stuff
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: I would like to see more JSON inside OpenSim though.
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: Order of including ini files is another thing that Nini(?) (mis)handles.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: yea json is not very human readable
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: There's certainly better ways of handling stuff. The problem there would be getting everyone converted over.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: we need 1 gigantic config string!
[12:02] Marcus Llewellyn: lol
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks laughs
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Ones and zeros!
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: all the seperates are ascii codes
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, mabye at soem point add json. almostb as good as ini file
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: needs to be as robot friendly as possible
[12:03] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: pass it a byte array on startup lol
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Otaku, some stuff can be updated behind the scenes without affecting existing setups.
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: at some point you mabye can dumnp old things
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: well
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: someone could actually make a json exposed config now
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: like xml
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, conversion can be done without drastic disruptions but it's tricky.
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: make a covnerter tool
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but forcing everyone to switch to that
[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: We did that with the region configs years ago I believe,
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: consider me retired
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:04] Shy Robbiani: I love the ini files for one reason: they are well documented
[12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: json you can document too.
[12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Of the methods I'd have to vote for ini.
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Shy, mostly well documented
[12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: json is great for interprocess communication. And I'd love to see it used for that. But it's BAD as a text file config format.
[12:06] Shy Robbiani nods
[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Ini isn't too fussy about indentation and such details. A misplaced space or tab isn't going to make everything asplode.
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea personally i think the proper thing would be to just craft a very clean ini
[12:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Not if the parser is written correctly, Otaku
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: Diva Distro is great example
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: of how it should be done
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: Diva's distro does something much like I do, I think. She just has her lil "myworld.ini" or whatever that overrides everything else.
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: trimmed a lot of fat
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: what we provide are "Examples"
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: not defacto standards
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't that the idea behind OSDefaults.ini and OS.ini?
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: When I dump what I *actually* change to a single file, it's small. Like, one page down at most to see it all.
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: we do the same thign as Encitra
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: OpenSimDefaults.ini makes sure there are sane values for all settings. Then, OpenSim.ini is read, allowing customization of those settings. You can go fiurther (as I do) and then load in anothe rINI on a per sim basis.
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: Encitra is kind of a crossbreed of what i came up with for OSCC and DIva Distro
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: it looks nothing like OSgrid
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: or stock opensim
[12:10] Andrew Hellershanks: marcus, right. How is that different from having a "myworld.ini" file?
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: its not one sets all the defaults for everything
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: the other is just what you want to change
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: you never want to touch the default inis
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ever
[12:11] Marcus Llewellyn: I haven't used diva's distro, ever. I've only looked at the inside of the zip. ;) So I don't know what I am doing the same or differently.
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: they change often
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: its impossible to keep up
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: on large scale implementation anyway
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, like I said, OSdefaults vs the main os file. One you never touch, the other you do.
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: sandbox maybe
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: we dont eve use OpenSimDefaults.ini in Encitra though
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: we have EncitraSettings.ini and LocalSettings.ini
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: OpenSimDefaults.ini is SL
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: basically
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: maybe you dont want that, so you could theoretically craft all new defaults
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: really just depends on what you are doing
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: dont let the examples trap you though
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: we probably should offer more examples
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: not just SLcentric
[12:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only thing i did seperate and worked is the vivox part
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: thats kind of hard without better viewer support though
[12:14] OtakuMegane Desu: OpenSimDefaults.ini also is not always the absolute set of possible things you can change as I've discovered while poking around in the IRC module.
[12:15] Andrew Hellershanks: And there are a number of things in OS.ini that most people may never change.
[12:15] vegaslon plutonian: alot of setting for physics engine you can change in ini settings if you know what they are
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: Doesn't surprise me. OpensimDafaults is partially a "catch all", in that it attempts to ensure everything that must be set, is set. Not everything needs a setting, and sometings default settings are provided in code unless overridenden by the ini
[12:16] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya those settings provide the most stable evnironment out of the box
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: not a fit all
[12:16] OtakuMegane Desu: There's numerous fun things tucked away in OS that just aren't documented so nobody really notices unless they're digging in the code itself.
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: If there are other "hidden" settings, should they be written down somewhere and added to one of the supplied ini's?
[12:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I could see that some settings may be ones that should stay hidden to most users.
[12:18] Marcus Llewellyn: OpensimDefaults, prolly. It's pther purpose, official or not, is as the OpenSim config Bible.
[12:18] OtakuMegane Desu: Probably. But it's not a small undertaking. OS documentaion has long been kind of lacking.
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks nods to Otaku
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: doxygen was good for that
[12:19] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, its a big job. Needs people dedicated to documentation.
[12:19] Marcus Llewellyn: doxygen is good for documenting code. Not so much anything else.
[12:19] OtakuMegane Desu: Getting better but there's still so much buried in the code. Gets worse when a dev from years ago made something and nobody really messed with it after that.
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: not so much documenting them
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya i meant exposing those hidden crannies
[12:19] OtakuMegane Desu: Then something breaks and you have to go in and figure out what's actually happening lol
[12:20] Andrew Hellershanks: It is possible to grep the code to find most of the available settings.
[12:20] OtakuMegane Desu: It's not all just settings either. Some ways that OS functions are like voodoo.
[12:20] vegaslon plutonian: alot of stuff just implementing in new physics engine but actaully have no idea what they do, not even documented on the lsl wiki
[12:20] Marcus Llewellyn: "Code is the documentation" does't work well for non-programmers. ;)
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: well I just noticed the time, i really have to run, i still am not packed for my trip tomorrow
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: and still work to do
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Where you off to this time, Nebadon?
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: i'll try to check in on IRC when i can while in San Jose
[12:21] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye. i go run to for a break
[12:21] OtakuMegane Desu: See ya. Have fun. :)
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: Silicon Valley :)
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, nowhere exotic this time.
[12:21] Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: "Code is the documentation" does't work well for programmers either after a period of time ...
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: its for Podcar City
[12:21] Andrew Hellershanks: True, Seth
[12:21] Marcus Llewellyn: Wave at Larry Ellision as he flys over. Or flip him off for me. Your choice. :)
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: http://podcarcity.org
[12:22] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I'll have to look and find out what is a pod car.
[12:22] OtakuMegane Desu: It can work but it's very difficult to do correctly. Usually you have to go back and do it as refactor. When I'm trying to get some function up and running I throw around all sorts of bizarre variable names and such lol.
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: http://projectrep.com/san_jose/San_Jose_Project_006_stream.mp4
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: check that out will explain what I am doing
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can see my model at the end
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its large :)
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: i made the video too :)
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: You make a lot of movie files
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: There's prolly medication for it. :)

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