Chat log from the meeting on 2015-10-20

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[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: hello :)
[10:57] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hi Neb
[10:58] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I was trying to help someone who was at my place shopping the other day...the things they were taking was collections of animations (20-100 of them per box) and it was doing a very strange thing for her
[10:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: she would click to "buy" which sends it using llGiveInventoryList()
[10:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and then her viewer fpx would plummet down to 0.2 until the transfer was completed
[10:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and it would take an unusually long time to send (60+ seconds)
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: but only for them?
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I was in the region and it was fine
[11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi aine
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and she said sim fps and physics fps was reporting 11-11.3
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: could be their router
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and no time dilation
[11:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: soemthing works fine for you ?
[11:00] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi everyone :)
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: this was with her OSG account
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: 11 fps is the max now
[11:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: she relogged and caome with her Metro account
[11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: transfers were completely normal and much, much faster for her
[11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then she logged back to her OSG account and returned....right back to the same issue
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: odd
[11:01] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: problems with osgrid?
[11:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so the sim fps and physics fps were reporting fine....it was only her bsic viewer fps that was killed
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: maybe something between that simulator and osgrid
[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and it only affected her
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: I have never seen anything like that
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: i sometimes send folders with 100s even 1000s of objects
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: ive literally sent whole sims i picked up
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: and took into inventory
[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: IK've never seen that either
[11:02] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you almost start to think you use 2 gateways and it's switchen between. :O
[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I just wondered if you could think of anything that would cause it to happen
[11:03] alfiere rossini: ciao shy
[11:03] alfiere rossini (it -> en): Hi shy
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: bad route
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and particularly when with everything else identical, it wasn't happening with her MEtro account
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: between that sim and the osgrid server
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: that is the only thing that really makes any sense to me
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess that's possible
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but why would that kill viewer fps?
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: I saw that happen when texture pipeline is disrupted
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: at OSCC grid
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: shouldn't that be just chugging along in the background?
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: and I saw the same thing like 5fps
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i forgot to open a port
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i guess not that would be a question for the viewer devs I guess
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well...except that with the identical viewer, identical computer, identical routers, etc she had no issue with her Metro avi
[11:05] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so it's something related to traffic too
[11:05] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: packet loss
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: can do a number on the simulator and the viewer
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: UDP
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I suppose
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: its very CPU intensive when packet loss is high
[11:05] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.3.0 Dev        2b437f8: 2015-10-20 00:58:16 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wich side of the sea is your home aine ?
[11:06] Shy Robbiani: that's why I still have an avi on each of the two grids
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi sjy
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: maybe try a MTR between that simulator and OSgrid server
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: winMTR is good
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that is a region on the main RG server which is in a very large datacenter just outside of Montreal
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: there are so many reasons stuff like this could happen
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so pipeline between there and Texas should be fast
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: that is outside of our control
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and again, why would that affect viewer fps?
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: "should"
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:07] Shy Robbiani: hi Richardus and anybody else
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: the DNS service you use can deteremine that
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: Texas to California there is 100s of potetial routes for instance
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and depending on which DNS service you are using
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: could determine routes
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but if there's something borked between RG and OSG that still doesn't explain why the viewer fps in region would suddenly bork
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and only for her
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I was standing right there and everything was rock solid for me
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it would if she is experiencing packet loss between the viewer and region
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and as she said, her sim and physics fps was normal...it was just her viewer fps
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: when the viewer cant reach the specific source of textures
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: FPS drops bad
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i cant explain why
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: but I can prove it
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: with OSCC we have textures served from its own robust console
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: and if i cut that firewall port
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: i go from 100fps to 5fps
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: and thats literally the only result
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: the textures still load from cache
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: but it takes forever
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: 20-30 minutes
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: vs 20-30 seconds
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so you think somehow inventory transfer interferes with the texture pipeline for her?
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: maybe
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (and only for her)
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: could be overwelming their router
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: could be eating threads
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess if it was overwhelming her router, shouldn't it be doing that regardless of which account she's using?
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are lots of questinos
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: does their OSGrid inventory have 10000s of items
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no idea
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: vs other grid having only 5 items
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:11] Shy Robbiani: it's important
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: too many questions to say for sure
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I expect her inventory is about the same on the 2 accounts she checked it with
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: could be a bad attachment
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I've never experienced anything like it so I really had no idea at all what to say or how to help her
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and as soon as the folder arrived, she was back to be completely fine again
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: what I can say is the problems you are seeing are not necesserily the cause
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: with 40+fps (viewer)
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: they are likely as a result of the real problem
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well....if nothing else at least you're aware of it
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it sounds to me like network problem
[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and maybe it somehow ties into the texture issue you experienced
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i can quite easily create environment that produces the same results you see
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: by disrupting network
[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: okies....well, I thought I'd just ask in case it was something useful
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: could be something as simple as their security software is throttling port 80
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but not 8002
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: OSGrid == port 80
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: If it can be triggered. then why it seems to hard to find a workaround/fix ?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: so many invisible possibilities
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: that can make you chase ghosts
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Oh, it's almost halloween...
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: how do i fix broken network with our code Richardus?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: if you figure that out let me know, we'll be billionairs
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:15] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No, broken network hard to fix. but are problems like that solved correct ?
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: maybe, its hard to say, these are complicated issues
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: the scenario i can recreate
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: is not fixable by code
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: its fixable by correcting your environment
[11:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aine, you not have other router to test ?
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: which we are going to encounter a lot
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: with people home hosting
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: who knows what your ISP is doing
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it wasn't me experiencing the problem
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i know here at Comcast NJ
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i cant host regions on port 10000
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i cant explain why
[11:16] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: eeww. comcast
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it as someone visiting my shopping region
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but if i do the regions run like shit
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: literally no valid explination accpet comcast uses port 10000 for something
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: and they are not saying what
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i switch to 10001 and problem disappears
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: maybe that's their NSA spy channel
[11:17] Shy Robbiani: lol
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall port 10000 can be used for certain network management protocols
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: ndmp
[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: possible because some VOIP things nebadon./
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya one of those ghosts I chased for a while
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: i just stopped using port 10000
[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yeah.
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I had the same issue and used the same solution...just switched to a different port
[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: better hunt bugs :)
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's one of those odd ones though
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: i fear there are a lot of these kind of issues that skew our ability to pinpoint actual bugs
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: muddy waters
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: when i first got involved in OpenSimulator, i honestly didnt think home hosted simulators was possible
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: if you had chat logs of my first month in IRC channel
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: you would have thought i was a Linden Lab plant
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: trying to disuage everyone this was possible
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i honestly didnt think we could pull it off
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: not one that could compete in any way with SL at the time anyway
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and I was super wrong
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: if you can Aine, take a look at MTR traces
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: see if you can find spots that have loss maybe
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: or get that person too
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: WinMTR
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: http://winmtr.net/
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: good tool, you can spot a network problem vs a simulator/viewer problem
[11:24] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: would it be between them and OSG? or OSG and RG? or.....?
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: both or all
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: check the routes as much as you can
[11:24] Shy Robbiani: often it's in between :(
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not always that easy
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but if you can
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: another good tool in the toolbox
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: for determining bug, vs environment issue
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'll pass that link on to her and see if that helps
[11:25] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Opensim have no network stats about dropped packets udp etc ?
[11:25] Shy Robbiani: from Switzerland we had a very poor peering to the LL servers in Texas
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I did a ping check on both RG and OSG when it was happening......OSG was a little slow to respond but not terrible
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: RG was extremely fast
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: most of my opensim servers are in Germany
[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and no loss with either
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: or California/Texas
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: im in New Jersey
[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but of course that's my connection...not hers
[11:26] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: CDN neb ?
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: im always about 2000+ miles from any of my servers
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: I use http://hetzner.de
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: they are practically giving servers away for free
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha, that i know
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup, chueap. if you have a credit card
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: relatively speaking
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: i have 6 servers
[11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what sort of ping times do you get for trans-Atlantic? ~120ms?
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: they are all 8 core with 48gb ram
[11:28] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aty 156 in the viewer
[11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: 110-120ms
[11:29] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm usually in the ~135ms range but it has to travel through mosquito-infests swamps to get here
[11:29] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (or bogs)
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: and thats from Blackwood, NJ to Nurmberg DE
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: like 3500+ miles
[11:30] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: SO instead of avoiding bugs, you go visit them aine :O
[11:30] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I live in the midst of them (in summer)
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i get the same speed to Germany from NJ as i do to Irvine California
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: about 100-120ms
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: NJ to Irvine
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: that is
[11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I often get times around 60ms to OSG's servers when I check it
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya i get like 90-110 to OSgrid servers
[11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: vs to RG it's much closer and usually 20-25ms
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: in Texas
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: also about 2000 miles, 1900 or so
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: i miss the 30ms i got in Arizona
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: comcast did just upgrade my speed
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i am getting like 180mb down now
[11:33] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lo, i downgarded my speed much.
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: my ISP announced this month that they'll begin offering 1Gb+ speeds next spring
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (not to me, though)
[11:34] Shy Robbiani: at reasonable prices?
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: supposedly....they haven't released the pricing yet
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but they'll be making it available to residential customers
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.speedtest.net/result/4761997686.png
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: begining in major urban centers
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so I probably won't get it until 2099
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: that would be nice to have
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: just hope they dont make you use some wierd modem
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: that you cant hook any conventional routers too
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: FIOS was kind of like that
[11:36] Shy Robbiani: we got it this summer... I have fibre in the living room, but cant use it... too expensive for me :)
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: anyway....on the Opensim front I gather that the phasing in of the Avination merge stuff is going to be done differently than originally planned
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yea its an ever evolving plan
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: with the goal to minimize pain as much as possible
[11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: fibre ? pff. i think that's far away
[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and if I'm understanding the new plan, it seems much more friendly in terms of upgrade path
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yea hopefully
[11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: cheaper to put opensim on vps in datacenter then
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: we are trying to spread it out a bit
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: so its less stressful
[11:37] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: fast hdd access, fast network
[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: HUGE thumbs up for doing that
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya didnt want to disrupt OSCC if can help it
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: that would not benefit anyone
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: More easy to catch problems
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: which BTW is full speed ahead
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: http://conference.opensimulator.org
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you are interested
[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well, suddenly cutting the "upgraded" from "not upgraded" in one fell swoop would have been a nightmare
[11:38] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: curious who are going tot alk
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.hypergridbusiness.com/2015/10/official-opensim-conference-slated-for-december/
[11:39] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I understand the idea behind the "you should stay current" push
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus too early yet
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: we just started call for registration
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i know :P but still curious
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but as info comes in it will be on that site above
[11:40] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but having no overlap at all is just too extreme, so the 2-3 step upgrade path will be a lot easier for people to digest
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: Volunteers will get the inside info the fastest :P
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: hint hint
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: ya definitely Aine
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: i or none of the devs are looking to ruin anyones day here
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but these are things that have to happen
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: sure
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: just a matter of making a plan that works
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the overlap period/compatibility is pretty important
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the original plan didn';t appear to have that...at all
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: well the plan was always developing
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: and still is
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of top soil to move, so to speak :)
[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: more of a "screw you if you don't update to git the instant it's released" mentality which I didn't think was going to be very well received by the general user
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: soemtimes you dont unearth things until after you start planning
[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: For now i concentrate on blender. making progress. now only the many materials to YV-map trick
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we have to realize to, beacuse one person says something, doesnt make it necessarily gospel
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: just starting points / talking points
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: remember most of these devs are far removed from the social aspects of opensim
[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: when it's a key dev saying it, it's a little harder to ignore
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but we try to keep dialog open so we can resolve cocerns like this
[11:44] Shy Robbiani: but it's good that a solution for this tp versioning thing could be found
[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: at any rate, kudos for revisiting that idea and taking a smoother approach to an upgrade patah
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its really the only reason I am a core developer
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its not becasue of my awesome code
[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no?
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its becasue i represent you guys
[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 faints
[11:45] Lucy.Afarensis @world.narasnook.com:8900: :)
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i have commited almost zero code
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: in comparison to all other core devs
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: im definitely in last place
[11:45] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: neb ur the mono expert aswell :)
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: You commited lost, offocrse it's not code.
[11:45] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is there any ballpark on when Avimerge will be dropping into 0.8.3?
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: I have practical hands on experience
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lots :O
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: here and SL
[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: pre-New Year?
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure Aine, that will mostly come down to Divas availability
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: unlikely pre-new year
[11:46] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: between OSCC and holidays and our Encitra stuff
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure we have time
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: also UBit
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i cant speak for him, even though he is a machine
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot to do
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so 0.8.2 early in new year then the drop into 0.8.3 I guess
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: yea maybe
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: nothing definite at this point
[11:47] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: however with this new transition
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: using taht code becomes a lot easier
[11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: less rrsk of isolation
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: anyone wanting to use that code
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: do a normal git clone
[11:48] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: also more opportunity for broader based testing before the forced update
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: then go into folder and type "git checkout avinationmerge"
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: then git pull again
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: and compile as normal
[11:49] Shy Robbiani: I installed 0.8.2.0-RC1 today
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: actually
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i bet i can pull a zip from github
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: https://github.com/nebadon2025/opensimulator/tree/avinationmerge
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: here it is on github
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: https://github.com/nebadon2025/opensimulator/archive/avinationmerge.zip
[11:50] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm a little too nervous about applying that to a region on a production grid
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: here is source code zip
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: this has to be compiled
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but if your not familair with git
[11:50] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I don't want it to in any way kill RG while I test it
[11:50] Shy Robbiani: use it on OSGrid *lol*
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: this is an option
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you can
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: Sisyphus here on OSgrid runs it
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: as are a few others
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: if you do try it and if you find issues be sure to report it right away
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: file a mantis etc..
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: it definitely needs more testing
[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: has anyone done any work with rigging to the attachment bones, and in particular to one of the attachment bones with a space in its name?
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: misterblue told me he was driving my racer over borders
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: using Ubode
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: and that it was not too bad
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: I have only used Avastar for rigging
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: which is cheating
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:54] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: .o/
[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I've been doing some testing using Avastar for that
[11:54] Shy Robbiani: me too... I only used Avastar
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: works great
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: for the price
[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I can rig it and make it work with aSkull, aNose, etc
[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but for any of the ones like aLeft Ear or aLeft Eyeball or aLeft Pec it makes the mesh explode
[11:55] Shy Robbiani: oh
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: I have not seen that
[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: any vert that has any weight at all to that bone will plant iteself at region <0,0,0>
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: email Avastar
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: those guys are serious experts
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah, I will
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I think Avastar is a bargain for what it does
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yea its great
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: huge time saver
[11:56] Shy Robbiani: I've been using her producs since JASS
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: if anyone is looking to get started learning blender
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i have a great tutorial i give my Encitra students
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: brand spanking new
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:57] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: to duplicate what it offers would be hours and hours and hours of work so to pay $20 instead of doing 40-50 hours of messy rigging is worth every penny
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: Lesson 1 is here > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkhNwJLCrbE
[11:57] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I have some beginner tutorials on my blog, Neb
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: lesson 2/3 here > http://www.blendernation.com/2015/10/14/tutorial-how-to-model-a-low-poly-spaceship/
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which they might find handy too (text-based ones)
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and this of course as well
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: https://cgcookie.com/flow/introduction-to-blender/
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: we are starting the process of transition to mesh only at Encitra
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: so i have everyone doing this training to start
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: it covers almost everything we need for basic modeling
[11:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: step 1: swap mouse buttons :p
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: very good tutorial
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nooo, step is connecting a bamboo pen tablet to the pc. super for rotating and moving in the scene
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I wish
[12:00] Shy Robbiani: when I tried to bookmark it was already there :)
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: oh one last thing
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm left handed....I can't operate a pen with my right hand
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: about the 0.8.2 release
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I can't hot-key with my right
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: we need some help from everyone
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: for Release Notes
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: i promised Diva i would mention it today
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: am right. but i moved the mouse years ago to left. only hard to use the keyboard at the same time :P
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/0.8.2.0_Release
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: anyone can add anything to this please do
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: with Justin gone, we need as much help here as possible
[12:01] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what the mean with this ? " No form of prim equivalence is implemented for meshes. "
[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can't begin to remember all the changes since 0.8.1
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: meaning
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: if you dont specify a mesh physics shape on upload
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it becomes a cube
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: vs the actual shape
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it should try to us visual shape for physics
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: before defaulting to none or cube
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: thinks.. before it alwats used the model shape. oh well. nothing shocking. if your used the make the physics too
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: I think that is what this means anyway
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: im still not sure its right
[12:03] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: thought that was meaning no land impact, just i prim count per mesh
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: but i think that was what this means
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: oh maybe Alicia
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: that seems wierd to specify that though
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but ya maybe
[12:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I think it's the LI calculation thingy
[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sounds more logic. because physics i think works fine for long time.
[12:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (or lack thereof)
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats wierd to list that though in release notes
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: we still dont have X
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: that would be like 50 pages
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: anyway, ya this page is super rough
[12:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: yea physics uses physics mesh or highest visual lod level, no change there as far as i know
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: if you have any knowledge that can fill in the blanks
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: and have 5 minutes please do
[12:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: not have experience with 0.8.2
[12:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I think Justin just did a dump of the git comments, then deleted the misc ones and only kept the substantive changes
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: even if someone can look through Git logs
[12:05] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.3.0 Dev        2b437f8: 2015-10-20 00:58:16 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: its mostly just a matter of having time
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: anyone can kind of do this
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: just a summary
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: not a technical document
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: you really dont have to be an "expert" to sumarize from a list :)
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: so if you can would be awesome
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: or know anyone that can pass it along
[12:07] Tom.Frost @hypergrid.org:8002: (sorry i'm late, this meeting is going on for around an hour already right?)
[12:07] Shy Robbiani: however, some of the technical documentation in the wiki is outdated and needs updates too
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: Tom yes we are wrapping up
[12:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: looks like 20 pages of commits since 0.8.1
[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi tom, bye tom :) yeah. a bit late
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: we will post chat log though
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: you can read back
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: Sheera will :) i hope
[12:08] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes Tom, it started one hour ago
[12:08] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: And I'll post the log soon
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes Shy, the wiki needs love
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: lots of love
[12:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: next week we have a summertime change uhmm sorry normal time change
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: we need volunteers
[12:09] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Chat_log_from_the_meeting_on_2015-10-20
[12:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh...the osslenable.ini is part of this
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to and need guidance
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: track me down
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: or come to IRC
[12:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the MOSES changes to sim fps, etc
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: we can help answer questions anyone may need help with on IRC editing
[12:09] Shy Robbiani: btw. have you seen my message about the error I get when building with mono 4?
[12:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the Kitely script stats changes
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: Aine, even if you can not or dont have time to wiki edit
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: can you send email to opensim-dev list
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: with those
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: bullet points
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: anything else you think of
[12:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods...I'll try to make some time in the next couple of weeks
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: sooner the better
[12:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm super busy until Nov 7th though
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: prior to release would be prefereable
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: ok well just a short email to list
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: with those bullet points is enough
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: then someone else can add it to wiki
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: just so they are not forgotten is all
[12:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: when you expect the release ?
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: soon
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: RC1 just got made
[12:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: that i already guessed after you last lines
[12:11] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: diva emailed if you didnt see it
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: must have been after I checked my mail this morning
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: Hi everyone,
Just a heads up that we are planning to make a new release of OpenSim, 0.8.2, with what's currently on the master branch, that is, before any merge happens with the avination branch. I already created a branch 0.8.2-post-fixes and will do a release candidate very soon. There are several improvements in this release wrt the previous one, including inventory download performance and the ability for ODE to handle varregions.
WRT teleport compatibility between versions, there shouldn't be any issues between the upcoming 0.8.2 and prior versions.
In the meantime, the avination branch is proving solid, and we're getting close to merge it back to master, but that will be after 0.8.2 is released.
Best,
Diva
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: for those who didnt see it
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh...that one I saw
[12:12] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the mail posisble still need to arive here
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but I didn't see the RC1 release annoucement
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya maybe she didnt email that
[12:12] Shy Robbiani: it's here: http://opensimulator.org/dist/
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: im looking
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya its posted there
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: i guess maybe she only said that in IRC
[12:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that one should be mailed out
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: it was very late
[12:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: because (shocker!) not the entire Opensim community hangs out in IRC 24/7
[12:13] Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: and it was posted in opensim-dev
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: just checked
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: Diva says not 100% official yet
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: she is working out logistics of doing it still i think
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: also she is waiting on release notes
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: before announcing RC1
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: so ya
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: ASAP
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: if possible
[12:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'll try to find an hour this weekend
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: thanks!
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