Chat log from the meeting on 2015-10-13

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Video of Meeting

Internet Acrhive: OpenSimulator Developer Meeting October 13, 2015



Chat Log

[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yesterday someone was posting in G+ about the latest version of FS having issues with grinding to a halt in a 12x12 var and my first thought was how in hell you could do anything meaningful i a 12x12 in the first place
[11:02] Marcus Llewellyn: Heh
[11:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and they mentioned residents, etc so I'm thinking it was set up as a residential community
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so even if you give 1 "region" per person, that's 144 people putting down their stuff
[11:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and if each one only puts 2k items and 100 scripts *per region* that's still going to be ~300k items and 14k scripts to handle
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: The lack of good region crossings has driven people to make huge Vars.
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: = dead simulator *long* before the viewer becomes an issue
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but huge *empty* vars
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you start filling that space with your "average" person's 256x256 content that would rapidly kill the instance
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's common to see 10k objects and 1500 scripts in a single regions
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so start multiplying that by the number of "regions" in the var and that gets insane
[11:05] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: nebadon is on his way
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: uhh i know some that did pusg 40K and i think 2000 scripts on 1 normal region
[11:05] Marcus Llewellyn: It's not much diiferent then when people host 20+ regions in a single sim instance on their home computer. Insert face palm.
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: sure
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can see it for a mostly-water sailing area
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or maybe a racetrack or flying area
[11:06] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: we tell people large vars are not recomended but they dont listen, or dont want to listen
[11:06] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: as long as you don't put down very much stuff at all
[11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Depending on the home computer that in itself isn't too bad. Connections tend to be the bigger issue with home-hosted
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: I know a guy who is building models of cities, and just wants vehicles to move freely through them. Presumably he will control the prim content and visitors will not bring a lot of content.
[11:07] Kayaker Magic: So he wants a 12x12
[11:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi all
[11:07] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi neb, hi rechardus
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I hope it's 99% prim cubes with a building texture on it
[11:07] Shy Robbiani: hi all
[11:07] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi shy
[11:08] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i created a var, to lower simborders. and it saves resources. and it's running good only 3x3 not fully packed 25K i think
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the other strong recommendation that Justin used to say was 1 core per region
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so a 12x12 would ideally have access to 144 cores
[11:08] Kayaker Magic: supercomputer
[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: That's more for heavily loaded regions or large numbers of visitors.
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: Aine thats not necesarily true
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: size of the simulator has nothing to do with it really
[11:09] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: thats based on SL recommendations from years ago, is 1 core per region being generous with todays tech?
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I know it was a gross overgeneralization
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and depends  a lot on content
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: generally we recommend 1 core minimum per simulator is mostly becasue of physics
[11:10] Shy Robbiani: on content and scripts
[11:10] Hippo Finesmith: hi folkks
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: you only 1 get 1 physics thread per simulator
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but trying to run a 12x12 on4 physical cores is going to be nasty unless there aren't many scripts and objects
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi hippo
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: well those are not cpu limits though
[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Physics or very heavy scripts/avatar population. If you're not going to strain any of those, just keep an eye on CPU usage and you'll be fine with whatever works.
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: generally the problem with large regions is I/O problem
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: not a cpu problem
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: the terrain is huge
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: 12x12 you are nearing Gigabyte range
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you'd need a huge amount of RAM too, I would assume
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of size of the terrain
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: 100's of megabytes anyway
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: anyway, I wouldn't personally try anything larger than a 4x4
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and at the rate I build, it would take me a decade to finish that
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yea technically there are issues you could encounter beyond that anyway really
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer just doesnt handle terrain larger than that very well
[11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. Once I got to like 5x5 and 6x6 it started to show little issues and lag and that was for an empty region.
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be performance issues to deal with
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: yea technically it will work
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: and might seem awesome for 1 avatar
[11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Nothing you couldn't live with if you really needed the size but things that could be noticed
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but try having 10 avatars log in simulatneously
[11:13] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: hello to all
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: or cross a border
[11:13] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: im using 3x3 but testing with 4x4, i think 4x4 will be ok when parcel updates can be sent for view distance with out the ghost parcel bug
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it will crash probably
[11:13] OtakuMegane Desu: Border crossing to/from vars into other size regions is still wonky at best I find.
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: if you want a big sandbox for experimenting large vars are great, but that experience will not translate into a good production level experience
[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: the smaller they are the better it works
[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: probably okay for 1 or 2 avi
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: with 768x768 we use in Encitragrid
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think i have ever had a border crossing fail
[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but anything more than that and I'd expect it to crash and burn
[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: You have to have a very extensive build or need maybe lots of water to really use much past 4x4 anyway.
[11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:15] OtakuMegane Desu: It's a lot of space to just start building in
[11:15] Hippo Finesmith: i find it hard to fill a 256x256 but im no builder lol
[11:15] Mercalia Beck: I have 4x2 mega on a 2x2 ghz is ok
[11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I think Cute said something about needing a 8x8 for a flight simulator or something
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I could see flight or sailing sims needing that kind of space
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: I write forest rezzers to plant lots of trees to fill in the terrain.
[11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah, there are good use cases. BUt the majority of people will never need half that.
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: in very controlled environments i think large vars are ok
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: as long as the terrain is mostly empty that would work fine
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: but in an open area you expect lots of visitors and concurency
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: its a bad idea
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeps
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: So reliable vehicle crossing borders would calm people down from wanting big vars.
[11:17] Marcus Llewellyn: The avination code may provide that finally. I haven't tested that myswlf.
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: yes eventually it will
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: right now it probably only works with ubODE
[11:18] Marcus Llewellyn: I only have one sim on avinationmerge
[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Scrap that word reliable.. SL still have not reliable sim corssings. so for opensim it's further away
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: my guess is any border crossing between simulators will never be good unless they're on the same host machine or, at least, in the same host LAN
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but crossing from my region hosted in Montreal to person X's region hosted in Paras is always going to suck badly
[11:19] OtakuMegane Desu: SL border crossings suck because things tend to be overloaded and LL hasn't put much effort into fixing them in ages that I know of.
[11:19] Marcus Llewellyn: Region crossings of any sort always have an element of peril on a grid like OSgrid. ;)
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or that would  be my expectation
[11:19] Lucy Afarensis: I was next to a guy from australia
[11:19] OtakuMegane Desu: Users have learned to live with it, they still get their rent and that's that. :P
[11:19] Lucy Afarensis: Im in michigan'
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hehe...that's a bit of a hike for the data to take :p
[11:20] Lucy Afarensis: yes
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of people running from machines at home have residential level routers
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: swimming back and forth across the Pacific
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: are not always the best or fastest for routing the amount of traffic opensim and the viewer can generate
[11:20] Hippo Finesmith: and silly adsl upload speeds
[11:20] Shy Robbiani: I've been waiting for border-crossing for ages
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess the biggest issue is lack of predictive need to cross
[11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Biggest issue with home hosting anything really is the connection. Even very good downstream doesn't guarantee upstream is that good.
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you knew in advance you could presend/prefetch and then just quickly hand over
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: even slow bandwidth is less of an issue honestly
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the way it is now requires everything to all go at once
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: i remember long time ago having 17 users on a 5Mbps upstream connection
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: and it wasnt bad
[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: My downstream is fine. My up is 1mb. That's awful. It's why I've never promoted my sims, or hosted parties, etc. I can't.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: but a bad router can be a disaster
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: small NAT tables
[11:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Third party firmware can help (a bit) on a home router.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: some routers are horrible at UDP too
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I've had 20 on my 5Mb up and it wasn't bad...but they all came spaced out by 2+ minutes and were seated
[11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: Well upstream like that isn't as uncommon now but still plenty of DSL connections that're maybe half that or less.
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's surviving the intial login that's the hardest
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: I used to connect to a grid in Honk Kong
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and it was rarely a problem
[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: And of course, the router. Even if it handles decently there's the hell of making most of them even function properly. HOme routers aren't designed for hosting and some even actively try to block it by lack of features, etc.
[11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Initial region rezzing when it isn't cached on a user's side can kill home upstream pretty easily.
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:24] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        0f6c3fb: 2015-09-14 23:37:39 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:24] Marcus Llewellyn: Once that settles down, it can get pretty smooth.
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i like to have "fcache assets" run on every startup
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: incase cache gets cleared
[11:24] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeps
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i have startup_commands.txt run "fcache assets"
[11:25] Hippo Finesmith: same here
[11:25] Shy Robbiani: good idea
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: this way you prevent that first no region cache login
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: which usually is like 10 minutes of not being able to move
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: and stuck as a cloud
[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: That's a good idea, but only half the issue. You sure don't want the sim refetching a whole region from the asset servers while a user is simultaneously fetching to their cache. But on a limited upstream pipe, just the latter is a killer.
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i found something interesting few days ago on OSCC grid
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: we do something different there
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: we have all textures served directly from robust
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: instead of routing through simulators
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: we have 4 texture servers, one for each keynote
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: on ports 8006, 8016, 8026, 8036
[11:27] Marcus Llewellyn: That's just a CAP change in the INI, ain't it?
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: well i forgot to open port 8006 to the world
[11:27] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: calling fcache assets will only cache what is missing, so if the cache isnt empty it shouldnt be a problem to run every start up
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: so any region that was reliant on texture server on 8006 couldnt reach it
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: well man this did a major number on the viewer
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i was getting like 2fps
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: couldnt move
[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Heh
[11:28] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ouch
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: even though local cache was full
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: totally populated
[11:28] Marcus Llewellyn: Have you updated OSCC to master(ish)?
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: it took 20-30 minutes for all textures to become visible
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so it seems if there is any disruption in the texture pipleine
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its very very nasty
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: made my PC run really really bad
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: which has a dominoe effect
[11:29] OtakuMegane Desu: Interesting
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: at it compounds itself
[11:29] Lucy Afarensis: Things were ok when the safari visited
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: UDP starts to get out of sync so it starts retrying a lot
[11:29] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: maybe the pipeline with OpenGL gets flooded with "I don't have that texture yet" messages?
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: which also spikes cpu on the server
[11:30] Marcus Llewellyn: One need look no further than Wright Plaza to see the impact textures can have on rez time. Prims zip into existance. You can watch the texture queue grind for minutes.
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: which in turn leads to heavy thread use
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: if its bad enough it wont fully recover
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: yea but what was interesting
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: in OSCC Staff Zone i normally get like 50-60gps
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: when texture pipeline cuts off, even once everything loaded and was visible
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: my frame rate was like 10fps
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: at most
[11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: interesting
[11:31] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I wonder why
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: because the server has threads tied up
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: trying to reach texture pipeline
[11:31] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Anyway, is opensim getting problems now LL is pulling more old udp type code out of the viewer. more work for tpv's to keep it in
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt seem like much of an issue
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: since the TPVs dont seem to be doing much anymore
[11:32] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: That's what i guiessed
[11:32] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: oh
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: viewer development is very slow at the moment
[11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: TPVs patch in their own little features onto the base code and cal it a day any more it seems.
[11:32] Shy Robbiani: what needs to be changed to get the textures directly from robust? and does it mean, you cant do it if you are not the Grid owner, because the ports wont be open?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: besides what LL is doing is not creating new stuff
[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: I don't think anyone is really digging at the rendering or trying to optimize stuff.
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: they are trying to make the grid run better on less hardware
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: so its not like we have to follow them at all anymore
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 raises an eyebrow
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: I think most of the stuff LL is doing is preparing for the grid to get a lot smaller soon
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: a year or two ago and you'd be burning at the stake for that statement :p
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: well I think they want to keep the grid alive
[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: We shouldn't follow them, either. SL is SL. Opensim has some legs now, it can take a path of its own and will almost certainly be better for it.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but with considerably less staff
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 gets the marshmallows
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: so I think that is their focus
[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: Sl will be put into maintenence mode at some point. And that is most likely LL's current focus.
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: shift the back end into something more managable by less people
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: lol, Aine. i still see stake's around
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right....they won't be generating the revenue to make it viable to have extensive back ends
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hm....chat just froze, it seems
[11:36] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: People not like to hear it. but SL start toi get EOL. so maintenence mode sound right in 1 or 2 years
[11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: Even if they were continuing to develop, it never seems like SL is really growing any more.
[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I would think that when SL2.0 comes online to the masses they'll want to take a lot of existing SL hardware and use if for that
[11:37] Shy Robbiani: a problem I see is that most viewers still depend on the code of Linden Lab
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: If LL has any firing brain cells, they won't do anything to kill their golden goose yet. Not even the appearance of EOL if they can help it. Until Sansara is a reality and has traction, LL will make sure SL keeps ticking.
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya I doubt SL will go dark for a long time
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but no doubt in order to keep SL profitable
[11:38] Mercalia Beck: maybe they open the hg gate to opensim lol
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: it means reducing staff considerably
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and fast
[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: staff and/or capital/infrastructure investments
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: but most will shift their interest to new technology
[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: SL will hang on for a long time I'm sure. But it'll pretty much exist for the more dedicated users who hang around.
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: the LL staff that is
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: they will be moved to new projct
[11:39] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right
[11:39] Shy Robbiani: exactly
[11:39] Marcus Llewellyn: There's always holdouts. We *still* have people popping into IRC complaining about how this or that won't work in Imprudence. ;)
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: omg
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya well a lot of people just wont have the hardware for the new grid
[11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Of course. You always have holdouts for almost any situation lol
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: even if they want to
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: they wont be able to
[11:40] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there are still people refusing to upgrade beyond 0.76
[11:40] Mercalia Beck: me included
[11:40] Mercalia Beck: as use DIv
[11:40] Mercalia Beck: Diva
[11:40] Mercalia Beck: and the .81 is crap
[11:40] Marcus Llewellyn: At some point, you have to stop letting those ooold Intel GPUs holding you hostage against progress.
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i remember 0.76 not being good at all
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it had its moments
[11:41] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi mercelia
[11:41] Mercalia Beck: well works better than the .81 in latest Diva
[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Sl isn't the only option around now, though. VWs and sandbox games are becoming more common now.
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there was a lot less basic HG stuff that wasn't broken in 0.76 but is now
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: i certainly dont think 0.7.6 is better than 0.8.1
[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: 0.76 still had the 4096 jump issue, for example. 0.8.1 got HELLA tested last yeat at OSCC. It's an awesome release.
[11:41] Mercalia Beck: is
[11:42] Mercalia Beck: mega in ,81 100% broken
[11:42] Shy Robbiani nods towards Aine
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: mega will be removed soon
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Megas are deprecated.
[11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: It's been a while since I really saw a reason not to upgrade when a release came about.
[11:42] Mercalia Beck: maybe
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: mega was always broke
[11:42] Mercalia Beck: well in .81 is 200% broken
[11:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Even if they weren't deprectaed, they have *always* been an experimental feature. They were *never* promised to be stable.
[11:42] Shy Robbiani: lol
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: Megas were always a broken hack
[11:42] Mercalia Beck: mine works very well
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: that was never complete
[11:43] Mercalia Beck: smooth
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: I personally never recommended people use megas.
[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: Mega was a kludge to get around the viewer limitations on region size. A neat hack, yes, but not something you really wanted to keep around longer than necessary.
[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it wouid just be nice if there was a concerted effort at some point to fix a lot of the things that got broken with 0.8x
[11:43] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but I guess fixing isn't nearly as sexy as writing new bugs
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: yea if you were to try Var regions
[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Merecelia, use var's not mega's
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: you would never consider a mega ever again
[11:43] Mercalia Beck: if and when var can do retangles then I move
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: vars are crap
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: never worked as well as vars do now
[11:43] OtakuMegane Desu: lol
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: Migration from a mega to a var requires only a little effort.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: sorry megas are crap
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: they never worked as well as vars do now
[11:44] Mercalia Beck: when var can do rectangles then U move
[11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: That reminds me, is there a particular reason vars can't do rectangles, only square?
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Var's are no crap. normal sims are crap with the simborders. and extre cost of resources. running 9 simulators or only 1 with var. big difference
[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is there a technical reason why var can't do rectangles?
[11:44] Shy Robbiani: a problem with vars are still the terrain textures
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: vars will never do that
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its not possible
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Ok. nebadon. lol
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: without major viewer changes
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: non square vars
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: that is
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: because of how terrain is handled
[11:44] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: 3 watrer sims on var not take much resoiurce
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its not possible
[11:44] Mercalia Beck: so vars arre CRAP also
[11:44] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh...it's viewer end
[11:45] Shy Robbiani: lol
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: technically megas didnt support non square either
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: unless you had no neighbors
[11:45] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think official mega's did not support rectange too
[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: Go with a square, and Just make the unused portion sea. Problem solved.
[11:45] Mercalia Beck: well my mega is 4x2
[11:45] Mercalia Beck: and very nice
[11:45] OtakuMegane Desu: So they won't do it in the forseeable future then. Viewer limits sometimes get fixed.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: yea I am not going to argue with you Mercalia, but your argument isnt convincing at all
[11:45] Shy Robbiani: right, but in general it's easy to stay isolated
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: vars are far superior to meags
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: saying otherwise tells me you never used a var
[11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: 5 years ago when I was begging for actual regions bigger than 256 I got told that wouldn't happen. Go use a mega. :P
[11:46] OtakuMegane Desu: So maybe rectangle vars will come eventually. But probably not for a good while.
[11:46] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: Simcrossing with Vehicles are posible now ?????
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you a 3x3 var will run considerably better thna 2x3 mega
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: will use less resources
[11:46] Mercalia Beck: hmm
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and support much more in terms of LSL
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: like the land functions
[11:47] Marcus Llewellyn: Core devs are not oracles. ;) They work on what they need or what interests them at the time. And those needs/interests change.
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: terrain events
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: they dont work in Megas
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: never did, never will
[11:47] Kayaker Magic: Simcrossing with vehicles is coming in the Avination merge
[11:47] Mercalia Beck: when diva move to .81 will look again
[11:47] Mercalia Beck: to .82
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: vehicles are also far better in vars
[11:47] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: Kaya
[11:47] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thx
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: yea, if you get stuck or have issues, be sure to ask for help
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: because from a technical perspective 0.8.1 should blow the doors off 0.7.6
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: however
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: there are considerable ini changes
[11:48] Mercalia Beck: in what way?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and if you use old inis you may have issues
[11:48] Mercalia Beck: I have a nice smooth tour boat working
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: oh 1000s of bugs fixed
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: so many performance enhancements it would take days to list them all
[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: Performance for one thing. 0.8.1 got load tested out the wazoo.
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: your talking about 2+ years of work
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: 0.7.6 is old
[11:48] Mercalia Beck: i know
[11:49] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: 3 years now, isn't it
[11:49] Mercalia Beck: but works
[11:49] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or 3.5
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya very close to 3 actually
[11:49] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: spring 0f 2011 iirc
[11:49] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or was that the Chrstmas one
[11:49] Mercalia Beck: as for viewer
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt alot of things have changed
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: and some old bug work arounds may not work anymore
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately people tend to adopt bugs as features
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and when we fix them they get upset
[11:50] Mercalia Beck: eg singulaity dont show maps of land where as Imprudence dows
[11:50] Mercalia Beck: so much for progress
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't have that issue.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: me either
[11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: Maps of land?
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: just because you experience something doesnt mean everyone does
[11:50] Marcus Llewellyn: And if you're using 0.7.6, well... no wonder it works better with an older viewer.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i never have map issues myself
[11:50] Mercalia Beck: no here now
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: im on replex
[11:51] Mercalia Beck: cant see lanf n map
[11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have seen in noimral mapmode with singularity that terrain is issing. but always use warp3d at startup. that is working fine
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: which is old singularity
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its really old
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and it works fine
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: I see all the map tiles
[11:51] Mercalia Beck: I have latest version
[11:51] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes singularity is running behinmd with updates
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i heard altest singularity is broken
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i thought
[11:51] Shy Robbiani: I have map issues... but another kind of issue
[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Same. I haven't run into map issues in recent memory.
[11:51] Lucy Afarensis: Takes a while to load
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: i would try the previous release of singularity
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: and not the latest
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: anyway i see the maptiles from osgrid fine in singularity. i think i use 5627. checking
[11:52] Mercalia Beck: seems to crash a lot also
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but osgrid use warp3d ?
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i also dont experience that, these things could all be local issues to your machine though too
[11:52] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I do have a question re OSG and Opensim....
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: singularity is pretty stable the one i use
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you what you are saying Mercalia doesnt sound like what i hear from the majority of OSgrid users
[11:52] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Singularity Viewer (64 bit) 1.8.6 (6157)
[11:52] Marcus Llewellyn: OSgrid uses whatever simops configure. ;) I use the old maptile generator, and not warp3d myswlf.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i dont doubt you are having issues
[11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm on the 6583 Alpha for Sing. Haven't bothered to go further especially hearing the latest one have a bunch of issues
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: but it sounds potentially like some may be local issues
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: not wide spread ones
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: which is not uncommon at all
[11:53] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: doesnt the viewer have two ways to get maps, the old udp way and new http way?
[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I am assuming that OSG is not intending to update your profiles module anytime soon so is there some way to have Opensim *not* choke on an OSG user visiting a grid that uses core (V2) profiles?
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: I dont know Aine, I know I dont have the time for that
[11:53] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: currently it can generate hundreds or even thousands of lines of errors on HG login
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: we would have to ask the other admins
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: its possible we could fix the non core groups
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: so they work better together
[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so if OSG isn't intending to change ti would be nice to be able to have Opensim *not* choke on it
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: that would be the beter thing to do I think
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: PLugh was doing some tweaking to flotsam groups recently.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea we talked about it breifly
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i havent had any time to work on much in terms of opensim
[11:54] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (though would be better from a useful testing perspective if OSG were actually running core code)
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: between my job and OSCC coming up fast
[11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: Basically, pester Plugh. >:)
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i wont have time for much until after the first of the year
[11:55] Kayaker Magic: There is an OSCC coming up? When?
[11:55] Marcus Llewellyn: December.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: December 5th, watch for annoucements any day
[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: osgrid need to switch to V2
[11:55] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: YES TRUE
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus there is no gauranteee that would improve it
[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yup. but then there's a reason to improve it :)
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: I cant say for sure core profiles will hold up to such large grid
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it would be useful if OSG did, but it might not be feasible....the main thing is to reduce the extremely heavy hit on an OSG HG user visiting another grid
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: any OSG person who enters one of my sims causes a massive spike
[11:56] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: vs more or less any other grid is no problem at all
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: I would prefer to fix profiles v1 to be more compatible
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: Remeber OSG people, HG to Aine's sims often. >:)
[11:58] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: thanks for Infos, Bye
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: im kind of suprised there would be any kind of performance hit though
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i mean sure its noisy, but id need more convincing its actually a performance issue
[11:58] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: in the advanced menu there is an option to use web map tiles, if thats disabled it might cause maps to not work with newer sims
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: depends on their inventory and folder structure
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i havent experienced any performance issues teleporting to Encitra grid or Avacon grid from OSgrid
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: interesting....chat just ate 2 lines that I typed
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Wright may need a kick when we're done. ;)
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: chats seemed ok here for me, maybe getting lucky though
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea im not even logged into console to look at it
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: I have had occasional chat lag, but  no lost msgs.
[11:59] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: mostly chat is fine....just once in a while it drops
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt restart it today
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Speakig of done, we're at the hour mark. Just FYI. :)
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: chat is one of those finicky things
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: that local lag / packet loss can make chat seem laggy when its not for anyone else
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: anyone...someone with a very large flat inventory is a major killer when coming from OSG
[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Chat is all UDP, ain't it?
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: im not even sure
[12:00] Shy Robbiani: chat looks ok to me right now
[12:00] Kayaker Magic: Lunchtime here, bye.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: I have a huge inventory
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: larger than most
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it will generate 1000's of error messages
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Well, not to be too sad about chat lag. it still happens in SL too
[12:00] Shy Robbiani: bye Kayaker
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: but this is one of those wierd things
[12:00] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yours probably isn't flat though
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: where Aine and I had very similar setups
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: but you had all kinds of issues I couldnt experience
[12:01] Lucy Afarensis: flat?
[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: lots of root level folders
[12:01] Lucy Afarensis: ah...
[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: instead of a nice hierarchy
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: More lube on your ethernet cables. That's the ticket.
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: my inventory is a complete disaster
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: im probably in the top 10 worst inventories
[12:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so if someone enters the region with inventory wind open it has to fetch detials of those folders
[12:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and those throw errors to console when it's an OSG user
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: I know though that Firestorm and Replex handle inventory a bit differently
[12:02] Lucy Afarensis: i could compete withyou on that neb
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i never use firestorm, not ever
[12:02] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the errors are profile-related for some weird reason
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: yea errors on console doesnt necesariily mean its the cause
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: OSgrid's HG has been.. weird for a while now. It hasn't (and can't) use all the latest HG stuff last I knew.
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: try the SL viewer neb. and you will change your mind
[12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: those errors could be a result of the actual problem
[12:03] Mercalia Beck kommt in Chat-Reichweite (15.93 m).
[12:03] Shy Robbiani: FS still works best for me, on both, SL and Opensim
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: which is very much more likely to be the case many times
[12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Singularity is my opensim viewer. FS is pure for SL
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Remember, open grids are a anomaly, and stuff like this is the price we pay for having them.
[12:03] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's definitely related to folder structure though
[12:04] Mercalia Beck: well tried 2 older viewer still no map
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: well I recall there being something about Firestorm in particular
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: that was kind of nasty
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: i forget now completely
[12:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: because when an OSG visitor first opens their inventory while in a region I see the flood of errors
[12:04] Marcus Llewellyn: Nulll GUID folder id thingy, I think
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but firestorm did stuff other viewers did not do
[12:04] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: Mercalia, in advanced settings, make sure the option to use web map tiles is checked
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Aine yes
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: that is different
[12:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...that's the one I'm referring to
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: when you see that it is becasue someone logged into osgrid with cache clear
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: and teleported before inventory
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: because of the nature of HG security
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: this is not a OSG issue
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: this will happen on ALL grids
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: its just you likely get more people from OSG triggering it
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: which isnt surprising
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we do have a lot of users
[12:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ture
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Too bad we can't prevent HG TPs until inventory is loaded.
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we may eventually
[12:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: although surprising I don't see it happening from any other grid
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: we discussed it
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: but other things have to happen first
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: or we already would
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: A "please wait" modal wouldn;t be the worst thing if it prevents bigger problems.
[12:06] Mercalia Beck: dont see enable map tiles
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: Aine it may just mean OSgrid users have the biggest inventories
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: and other grid users dont clear cache as often
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid is very test kind of oriented
[12:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 chuckles
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: cache clearing is like daily prayer here
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: face east and clear your cache at noon
[12:07] Marcus Llewellyn: lol
[12:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: for a "very test grid" you don't test a lot of core services.....
[12:07] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: Mercalia, advanced dropdown, option is called "Use web maptiles" (singularity)
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: aine exactly 2 services
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: Groups and Profiles
[12:07] Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: users that clear cache much. mabye the need to increase the cache size ?
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: which are relatively new to core
[12:08] Mercalia Beck: ah
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: otherwise almost everything we use is in core now
[12:08] Mercalia Beck: ta
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn gently reminds people that this is an OpenSim meeting, and not an OSG town hall. :)
[12:08] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: Mercalia, map is working now?
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