Chat log from the meeting on 2015-09-22

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Video of Meeting

Internet Acrhive: OpenSimulator Developer Meeting September 22, 2015

Chat Log

[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm checking to see if nebadon is coming soon.
[11:03] Kayaker Magic: Does anyone from Moses come to these meetings regularly?
[11:04] Alicia.Raven hi everyone :)
[11:04] Marcus.Llewellyn Not remotely regulrly, no.
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Not that I know of but I'm not sure what avatar names they use.
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Less likely to be here now that they have forked OS.
[11:04] Arielle.Popstar thought i read they decided to distance themselves from core intentionally
[11:05] Arielle.Popstar they seem to feel there wasnt enough colaboration?
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: something like that.
[11:05] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:05] Kayaker Magic: I wondered if they saw the code donation of a Physx engine from InWorldz
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Good question.
[11:05] Licu.Rau perhaps for their purposes they need something different in the structure of the software
[11:05] Marcus.Llewellyn They need to make large, rapid changes, and core's submission process was too slow for them. That's mostly what it comes down to.
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Core isn't the easiest part to get in with new stuff. :P
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Part of the problem is having people who can review their changes.
[11:06] Kayaker Magic: InWorldz has been donating several things lately, not directly back here...
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: its unlikely we could easily port anything from InWorldz
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: they forked off a very long time ago
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: in like 0.5 era
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: wow. that's a long time ago.
[11:07] Marcus.Llewellyn Imworldz has some code up on Github. There's some very real questions about whether or not they've got all their licensing ducks in a row.
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: very long time ago
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe how much truth is there to the information spreading around G+ about a major commit that will break the ability to TP to a region that hasn't been updated to that version or later?
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: at some point that will happen Aine, as of right this moment that is not true
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: to fix attachments
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar something to do with wearables wasnt it?
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: there is a bug at the moment
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar crashes the originating region
[11:08] Marcus.Llewellyn Just one bug? Hooray!
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: well thats what happens if we dont force upgrade
[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: Hard breaking lines like that are avoided as much as possible but they have occurred before.
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: um... I thought it was that it crashes the destination if it is on older code.
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: thats not the reason it changed though
[11:08] PcTek CyberStar: we will find out who is responsible and send someone from la familia to take care of it.
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: I dont know the exact results
[11:09] Unknown UserUMMAU42: Hello, can someone help Me, on the funsionamiento of grounds, try to open the mine and can not enter
[11:09] Aine.Caoimhe at the moment there is widespread panic out there so if that isn't an imminent change it might be worth having a dev say so publicly
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: but it can lead to crashing
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker much panic
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: it will likely come with the next release
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: as of right now the code isnt finished yet
[11:09] Marcus.Llewellyn It will also be backported a bit if I recall.
[11:09] Arielle.Popstar it isnt the first time with incompatibility between versions for HG
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes 0.8.1PF will be ok
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: anything before that will not
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Could the panic be a good thing if it means the word is spreading faster and people will be more likely to upgrade quicker?
[11:09] OtakuMegane Desu: Even if it doesn't come this time, something eventually will be big enough to force updating. It's just how things go at this stage of development.
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker I would saym, finaly rid of the 0.7 versions. but people are worried about the upgrade happins in a busy event time. and break things
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe yes...but if it's going to be something major like that it ought to get a lot of advanced, highly public notice
[11:10] Arielle.Popstar it was nice to see work being done on ode and vars
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe so people will know about it and be prepared (as best possible) for it
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: well this whole thing is a really big change
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: thats just 1 piece of many
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but until we have the whole picutre
[11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Usually it is announced well beforehand in my experience but it seems like someone picked up early and decided to run around with rumors.
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we cant really say much that already hasnt been said
[11:11] OtakuMegane Desu: Instead of waiting
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: smaxy was going to post some stuff around
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: well we talked about getting the word out on IRC
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar he did
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: mostly just getting people ready for when it eventually does happen
[11:11] Marcus.Llewellyn Things like this are gonna happen. They *have* to happen for OpenSim to continue to grow. A changing peice of software is  what everyone has signed on for, whether they like it for not.
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: yup
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: you are getting very early warning at this point
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar just that there is now much more focus on HG then there was in past
[11:12] Richardus.Raymaker are mega's going to be removed too ? or just delay the renmove 1 version ?
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar used to be hardly anytone would notice hg incompatibility
[11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: There's a much larger base of OS users now than in the past too. And people are starting to do big stuff with it.
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: megas will likely be removed in 2 releases from now
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe IRC is a very bad way to reach people if you want to get to the masses since most (myself included) can't spend 24/7 on IRC
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: not next release
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar has ode been fixed for Vars
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: needs more testing Arielle
[11:13] Marcus.Llewellyn ODE does not work on Vars.
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: but its getting there
[11:13] Marcus.Llewellyn not == now
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar nod
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ubODE does
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar cool
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its in Avinationmerge brange
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: there will be another ODE in the future
[11:13] Ubit Umarov: ode should also work now on master
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: called ubODE
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar how is that going?
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar that merge?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok Ubit cool
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: didnt realize it was in master
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, going to be a long process.
[11:14] OtakuMegane Desu: So an updated ODE?
[11:14] Marcus.Llewellyn I've been running a region on the avainationmerge branch for a while now. I haven't had any problems to speak of
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: yea I have Sisyphus running on avinationmerge but still using bUlletsim
[11:14] Ubit Umarov: yeap ubODE is a evolution of old ode plugin
[11:14] Arielle.Popstar avination doesnt have hg right?
[11:14] Marcus.Llewellyn This new ODE will have different behavior, much like Bullet did from the old ODE. People with scripts that depend on specific physics behavior will need to proceed with that in mind.
[11:15] Ubit Umarov: yes.. vehicles will behave diferently from ode
[11:16] Ubit Umarov: ( and a few more things but mostly vehicles )
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, The grid doesn't, AFAIK. It is a closed grid.
[11:16] Marcus.Llewellyn HG sorta works, Arielle.  At least the basic. I haven't tested that much.
[11:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Cool. Variety is good, though I don't have reason to switch off of Bullet personally.
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: the avination code base has no idea about hypergrid really
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar nod
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: Ubit is merging all that in
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: with som help
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar just wondered if their code is fully compatible HG wise
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: it will be
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: it currently isnt 100%
[11:16] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: let me just say we cant certify its 100% yet
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: One person is working their way through the code looking for any regressions.
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: most stuff works I think
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: needs more testin
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: it will be fixed
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar also some talk in G+ groups about server side export flag support
[11:17] Ubit Umarov: well it it isn't already :)
[11:17] Arielle.Popstar didnt avi have that ?
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I think that export flag requires viewer to support it?
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I dont know honestly
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar yes which it does
[11:18] OtakuMegane Desu: I would imagine so
[11:18] Arielle.Popstar sing and fs
[11:18] Ubit Umarov: avn doesnt use hg, but code was there.
[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker FS have it ? other OS viewers have it ?
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: I seem to remember running across an export setting in the ini files but I haven't looked at what exactly it does
[11:18] Richardus.Raymaker i only know singularity with export
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar i thought Mel had put a hidden switch in for it
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar in regular opensim
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar server side
[11:19] Arielle.Popstar but my memory might be bad
[11:19] Kayaker Magic: FS has export in the dialogs
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: There are two export situations. Exporting something from a grid to a local HD, and exporting items to another grid after an HG TP.
[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker And what about OAR ?
[11:20] Marcus.Llewellyn Melanie and Sianna were behind the export permission in some viewers, IIRC. But becuase it's not universally supported, and there's different implemenations like Kitely's, there's been more that a little confusion.
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure which (if either) is covered by the flag I saw.
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar exactly Marcus
[11:20] Kayaker Magic: FS has checkboxes in the build dialog for the HG TP export
[11:20] Alicia.Raven i had thought export flag wasnt finished, but im pretty sure melanie said it should work if enabled, its just not documented
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe, yea... like most of OS.
[11:20] Arielle.Popstar yes i thought so too Alicia
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar is a funding effort to reinvent that wheel
[11:21] Alicia.Raven export flag seems like it wont be much use as only full perm items can be set to export
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: yea I think its a bit to early for that stuff I knwo its in the works
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: I would not expect it for next release though
[11:21] Marcus.Llewellyn I've felt that export perm was a misnomer, personally. It's more of a public domain flag.
[11:22] Marcus.Llewellyn Which isn't a bad thing to have.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: I know melanie has some papers she is writing that will be made public soon
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: that will cover some of this stuff
[11:22] Arielle.Popstar well some commercial creators would like better protection for hg sales
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: HG in general needs improving
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar but freebie people are afraid that the default setting will prohibit export for currently exportable freebies
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar nod
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: everyone is still quite in the Second Life mindset
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: that has to change
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: and will change
[11:23] Marcus.Llewellyn Amen.
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar no
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it wont go away
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar nod i mean :)
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but things need to expand
[11:24] Richardus.Raymaker especialy contenmt creators need to change there mind of how things need to be sold.
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: SL is a small bubble
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: in a sea of bubbles
[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: And one that's going stagnant at that
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: Kitely has something nicely inbetween SL and OS as far as protection of creator rights goes.
[11:24] Marcus.Llewellyn And a straight jacket. If we stay in it, we die.
[11:24] Kayaker Magic: I assumed Export was going to be like what Kitely does
[11:24] Aine.Caoimhe I hope that at least anything that doesn't currently have flag set will, by default, be "converted" to have it set
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yea I think its a bit to premature to say how its is going to work on that level
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: its a fluid situation
[11:26] Marcus.Llewellyn The safe, legal thing to do is to presume that a permission has *not* been granted. "All Rights Reserved" and all that, unless a content creator says otherwise.
[11:26] Marcus.Llewellyn If they haven't said otherwise, you can't assume they might.
[11:26] Arielle.Popstar yes but creators no longer in Opensim would not be setting their stuff exportable
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar so we lose a lot of frebie content which is currently exportable
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: thats unlikely to occur
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker oar ?
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: no one is out to lock down existing content
[11:27] Richardus.Raymaker if you cannot move stuff export disabled by oar. don't implement it !
[11:27] Whaka Akahw: hi :)
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its about giving creators the option to if they want to
[11:27] Marcus.Llewellyn And that would suck. But setting export by default on items that didn't use to have it leave one open to lawsuits. Welcome to copyright.
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe so everything currently in my inventory will instantly become non-exportable and I'll need to go and manually set the export flag on every single item I own?
[11:28] Aine.Caoimhe I pity the people with more than a few hundred items in their inventory if that happens
[11:28] Richardus.Raymaker can be fun with scipts inside objects
[11:28] Arielle.Popstar lot of content from creators who are no longer here
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: Aine no, its unlikely anything in your inventory would change
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: it would be stuff in simulators and new stuff you take
[11:28] Marcus.Llewellyn Copyrights are held by the otem creator. Unless *they* can *say* what the perms are, nobody can add extra rights to it. Not you, not a grid, not a group of devs.
[11:29] Arielle.Popstar unless the flag is set by date of creation perhaps
[11:29] Kayaker Magic: But right now all those items are export by default, the new feature is the ability to disable that.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: yea that would make the most sense
[11:29] Richardus.Raymaker upset people with own grid and sql knwoledge ...
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: you have to opt in to no export
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: and nothing as it is changes
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar yes Neb, that would be ideal
[11:30] Aine.Caoimhe I certainly hope that's the way it's implemented
[11:30] PcTek CyberStar: many grids have completely stopped exporting of anything at all
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: I imagine it is nothing is set in stone
[11:30] PcTek CyberStar: not just secondLife
[11:30] Arielle.Popstar full perm meaning it is exportable under current setup
[11:30] Marcus.Llewellyn Full perm != public domain. Full perms does *not* mean you've been given all rights over something.
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: realistically though, if something can leave your sim and a person has access to the console / database
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: there is nothing we can do to protect it
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and look at SL
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: no one has access to the back end in SL
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: and content theft is rampant
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: so while its good to tighten things up
[11:31] OtakuMegane Desu: I think most creators are more worried about people using viewer export than region owners running an oar or something.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: none of this is a unbreakable vault
[11:31] PcTek CyberStar: i think a grid started from the ground up with only freebies
[11:32] PcTek CyberStar: and everything is public domain
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: unenforceable
[11:32] PcTek CyberStar: would put a stop to a lot of these retarded law suits over trivial crap
[11:32] PcTek CyberStar: it's a video game
[11:32] PcTek CyberStar: who cares if you made a brown board textures
[11:32] PcTek CyberStar: in a video game
[11:32] PcTek CyberStar: people that file law suits like that make more money off the suit than they ever would off a texture
[11:33] Marcus.Llewellyn The creator of the texture may care, and has very real legal rights over it.
[11:33] Arielle.Popstar nod
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya my only point was that no one has ever designed DRM you couldnt circumvent
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: but if we can make people feel warm and cozy we should
[11:33] PcTek CyberStar: what about putting out a legal notice on he grid...
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: legal notice is only as good as your legal teams ability to enforce such notices
[11:33] PcTek CyberStar: everything on this grid is public domain, if you dont want it to be, get it off our grid
[11:33] Marcus.Llewellyn You can pay for the lawyer. ;)
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: going to court costs money
[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: It's mostly meant to block the "casual" theft. Like locking your door. It won't stop a pro no matter how many locks you do. But it'll keep honest people honest.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: even if you are the plaintiff and correct
[11:34] Marcus.Llewellyn If Osgrid were taken to court over... well, anything really, it'd be dead. Just... dead. Kaput. Roadkill.
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but its good to cover our bases, I am all for making things easier for export
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: people just need to realize it wont do anything to stop content theft
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it will simply make things a little easier to manage
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: which is a good thing
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker If you hear the noise sometimes in SL. hmm. not sure if people understand it
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe many (most?) don't
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: well i mean look there are many examples of it out there
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Sony spent a huge some of money developing encryption for Bluray
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: was 100s of millions
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: some 15 year old kid cracked it in like 3 days
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar lol
[11:37] PcTek CyberStar: sony should hire him
[11:37] Arielle.Popstar really ;)
[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe more likely NSA hired him
[11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: The problem is things encrypted have to be able to get unencrypted by consumer-level tech. SO there's only so much they can layer on.
[11:38] Alicia.Raven if it can be displayed it can be copied
[11:38] PcTek CyberStar: one of the major problems we are facing right now
[11:38] PcTek CyberStar: is grids not getting back online
[11:38] Marcus.Llewellyn Encryption and DRM are a bit off the conversation path of permissions, honestly. Becuase permissions are all we have, and all we will have for the foreseeable future.
[11:38] PcTek CyberStar: because of that j2kmodule error
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: PcTek? this is news to me
[11:39] Licu.Rau the only way to protect a grid from thieves is closing the grid and using a system like canopy... and it will cost a lot
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: what error? is there a mantis?
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: j2kmodule hasnt changed in years
[11:39] PcTek CyberStar: Whaka did you make a mantis for that error?
[11:39] PcTek CyberStar: oh there is whaka
[11:39] Marcus.Llewellyn j2kmodule is prone to giving off warnings from time to time. I haven't seen an error in.... aeons.
[11:39] Whaka Akahw: hm, no, i don't really know how to do that
[11:40] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I forget when it was even last mentioned
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: need to file a bug report
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: include as much detail and logs etc.. as you can
[11:40] Whaka Akahw: (can i past someone here the crash i get ?)
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: just a guess without seeing anything
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: its more likely somthing with your environment
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: than opensim itself
[11:41] Marcus.Llewellyn without looking, I'm wondering if it's missing dependencies.
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: ive never heard anyone mention this problem before
[11:41] PcTek CyberStar: [ERROR] FATAL UNHANDLED EXCEPTION: System.TypeLoadException: Could not load type 'OpenSim.Region.CoreModules.Agent.TextureSender.J2KDecoderModule' from assembly 'OpenSim.Region.CoreModules, Version=, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'.
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: what version of mono?
[11:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Looking at the errors listed in mantis J2K is spitting them out but it sounds like J2K isn't necessarily the problem. It's just not finding something
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: hmm i wonder if its Kernel 3.16
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: and newer mono issue
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: that I ran into
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: im stuck on opensuse 13.1
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: because newer kernel crashes mono
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: randomly
[11:43] PcTek CyberStar: what's it mean when it says could not load type
[11:43] Richardus.Raymaker That's why i stopped using linux. so many problems
[11:43] PcTek CyberStar: fatal unhandled exception
[11:43] Licu.Rau isnt it a threading problem the one between kernel and mono?
[11:43] PcTek CyberStar: [ERROR] FATAL UNHANDLED EXCEPTION: System.TypeLoadException: Could not load type 'OpenSim.Region.CoreModules.Agent.TextureSender.J2KDecoderModule' from assembly 'OpenSim.Region.CoreModules, Version=, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'.
[11:43] Marcus.Llewellyn What version of mono? What linux distribution?
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: Licu yea its some kind of timing / threading
[11:43] Whaka Akahw: debian 8.2 and mono 4.0.4
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: with newer kernels
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: apparantly its been fixed
[11:44] Licu.Rau kernel from 3.16 to 4
[11:44] Marcus.Llewellyn Have you used :sudo apt-get mono-complete
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but ive not seen evidence if that show up in opensuse yet
[11:44] Whaka Akahw: i used synaptic to get it, it's the same, no .
[11:44] Whaka Akahw: ?
[11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm
[11:44] Marcus.Llewellyn Cuz it could like something is missing. libgdi or something.
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure what problem is there WHaka
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but i do no think that is abug in opensim
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its very likely a mono bug
[11:45] Marcus.Llewellyn The packages synaptic gras are frmo the same repos, yes.
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: yea make sure you have mono-complete
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: apt-get install mono-complete
[11:45] PcTek CyberStar: if there is any way the council could offer some insightful advice on what to do?
[11:45] Whaka Akahw: okay, i try this now
[11:46] PcTek CyberStar: ok good.
[11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn We just did. And there's no council. We ain't Jedi Knights.
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: if that fails you could try compile mono yourself
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: council?
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar :)
[11:46] Marcus.Llewellyn Complete install of mono you must be having, yes.
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: also
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: could be the setting mono threads issue
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: not enough threads for mono
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: soit bogs on start
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: in ~/.bashrc
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: add
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: export MONO_THREADS_PER_CPU=2048
export MONO_GC_PARAMS=nursery-size=64m
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: and restart bash
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: relaunch opensim etc..
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have this already i would expect major problems
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: bizzare unexplainable crashes
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and stuff not working
[11:49] Marcus.Llewellyn So... like normal then. >:)
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: opensim is thread hog
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar is glad she has clickable windows
[11:49] Ken Savage: Any solutions on the horizon to the issues with Warp3D?
[11:49] PcTek CyberStar: well the lnux opensim support group practically died
[11:49] PcTek CyberStar: however i like linux
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken: Which issues?
[11:49] PcTek CyberStar: and love osg
[11:50] Ken Savage: It looks great but takes forever with all the error messages on startup.
[11:50] Marcus.Llewellyn You'll find tons of people who use linux to host opensim.
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar Nebs the linux guru, along with a few others
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: te majority of the dev team are linux people
[11:50] Marcus.Llewellyn Nothing has died. lol
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: alteast for servers
[11:50] OtakuMegane Desu: It seems the majority probably use Linux for hosting. Definitely so for those running on a VPS or full server
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken, what sort of error messages are you getting? I'm not aware of any excessively long delay starting a region that is using Warp3D
[11:51] Licu.Rau Craft works only on linux server, windows in just a few servers and pc of third people, and it works well
[11:51] Arielle.Popstar my windows server been running my grid for over a month without restart. Pretty impressed
[11:51] Ken Savage: On a 6x6 var, it takes 4x longer to start and lots more memory when I use Warp3D
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that is not surprising
[11:52] PcTek CyberStar: i might not be the smartest softball in the haunted house, but i know how to click the help button
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: big vars will probably always be a bit slower
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: that is a lot of data
[11:52] Ken Savage: and a lot of error messages
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah
[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: Anything that would involve the whole of a var region is going to take longer.
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: 36 regions worth of terrain
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: you are nearing the GB barrier
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: in terms of size
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Ken: It should not be tossing error messages AFAIK. What errors are you seeing?
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: 100's of MB anyway
[11:52] Ken Savage: If it is set to not draw prims, its not bad
[11:53] Alicia.Raven warp3d gives alot of error messages about corupt textures, i found alot on my grid are because people have used local textures when building and forgot to set them to a real asset
[11:53] OtakuMegane Desu: Don't think I have any region with prims enabled for the maptile
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya those are all warnings Alicia
[11:54] Marcus Llewellyn: I think Warp3D actually tried to render the scene (ie the entire region) in 2Dm athough a bit dumpbed down. In any case, that's a LOT of data.
[11:54] Ken Savage: Other than the Warp3D issues, the Bulletsim fall through issue is the only other thing I get complaints about.
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: if you compile opensim in Release mode and logging to INFO
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: instead of debugging
[11:54] Alicia.Raven some are warnings some are errors nebadon, dont stop it working tho
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: you wouldnt see any of tat
[11:54] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim Dev        0f6c3fb: 2015-09-14 23:37:39 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker 0.8.2 have warp3d problems ?
[11:55] Richardus.Raymaker i have btw more problems with not using warp3d. no water on map as example
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Warp3d is it's own madule. Unless someone decides to maintain it, it'll always have whatever issue it does.
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: The only other issue with Warp3d is still that off by one error down the right side of the map tiles.
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: warp3d ,ay have a little leak problem
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: module. Zowie I can't type today.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: Warp3D is generally just a problem if you have it running on a timer
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: personally
[11:56] PcTek CyberStar: is anyone experiencing currently missing mesh problems?
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: I like generating my own map tiles
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: and hard coding it
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: region starts up about 100 times faster
[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker what is the replacement for warp3d ?
[11:56] PcTek CyberStar: 00
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: and takes tile generator out of the equation
[11:56] PcTek CyberStar: region starts 100x faster
[11:56] Ubit Umarov: some 16MB now and then on my little 2km region
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: if you dont generate maptiles yes
[11:57] PcTek CyberStar: ok
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: the thnig with maptiles is
[11:57] Richardus.Raymaker only run warp3d at startup. never run map regeneration regulaior
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: it has to download the entire regions worth of content
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: bfore it can render the tile
[11:57] Ubit Umarov: ( err only 5k prims or so )
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: == long time
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, I'd be interested in doing that too but I'm not quite sure how you do it.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: well you can generate your maptiles however you want
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i use the viewer
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i sit myself on a cube
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: You take your camera up about 800m and then take a snapshot. ;)
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. Just need the coordinates
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and move it up to like 300-400m range
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and go into mouselook
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: look straight down and snap a pic
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: fnacy it up in photoshop
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: upload it in world via the viewer
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: That's a lot of work.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: get its uuid
[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker regulair map, is not showing watre in 0.8.1 well almost nothing where showing on the maptiles for me. switched it back for a test not long ago.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and set it in OpenSim.ini or Regions.ini
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: It's great for relatively static regions.
[11:58] PcTek CyberStar: This question is for nebaddon: how do you see the future of osgrid changing as a direct impact of technologies like GRID-ON-A-STICK with hypergridding enabled?
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: its a lot of work i guess but regions start faster/ use les memory
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I just had a thought. I wonder if you could somehow use a region module to automate that
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and i get a much higher quality maptile
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: let me show you 1
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: hang on a second
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I've seen the ones at the OSCC
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea for those that havent
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: you can get really nice results
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: even write on the tiles
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: you can make the tile a photo of a monkey
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:59] Marcus Llewellyn: Susanne. :)
[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: I do that with some tiles for fun.
[11:59] Richardus.Raymaker neb. this chairs are already in halloween mood
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: I assume we are having a halloween party this year
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker it did let me floar, resit it's gone. just where floating again. until soemonbe next ti me start sitrting
[12:00] Marcus Llewellyn: Wright Plaza is definitely haunted.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: anyway making your own tiles is a nice hack
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: to increase startup times
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and possibly free up some ram
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: and avoid the off by one error in Warp3D
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: you get much higher control over how stuff looks
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: if you are into that kind of thing
[12:01] Richardus.Raymaker hmm. Ok. so. use warp3d one for the tiles and then screengrab them and make your riles. it's some idea
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: or that
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: actually richardus
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: if you watch your region startup
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: it prints a URL
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar PCTek, there have been various similar implementations in past but they really have no effect overall on the grids
[12:01] Richardus.Raymaker or copy the maptiles:O
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: to a JPG of your maptile
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: just load that into firefox
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: and save page as
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: instant maptile grabber
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar they appeal to different people
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: then you can photoshop it up
[12:02] PcTek CyberStar: i knew there was sim-on-a-stick
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: enhance colors
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: slight gausian blur etc..
[12:02] Arielle.Popstar diva's distro
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: And you can pretty much use any sort of image with a UUID.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: right
[12:02] PcTek CyberStar: but grid-on-a-stick is something new and different, especially with hypergrid enabled
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: you could use a picture of your avatars face
[12:02] PcTek CyberStar: it means the end user controls he horzontal and the vertical
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: if you are doing secret work
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a script function that will return the UUID of the region map tile.
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker Something to change with next upgrade. if i can find the var maptile
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: and dont want people to see
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: make it skull and crossbones
[12:03] Arielle.Popstar diva distro had the same capability in that regard
[12:03] PcTek CyberStar: again i raise the question of whether ornot we should have 3 more buttons for copy grid, transfer grid, and modify grid
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Goatse. :)
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: pcTek yes likely we will at some point
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: that will require a lot of coordination though
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: and being opensource
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Derpy Hooves is playing with portals to the west of Teravus Plaza
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: anything can change it to do whatever they want
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but sure for those who are willing to play fairly
[12:04] PcTek CyberStar: well just remember that wa my idea, as such if you could allow the buttons to have my name on them, that would be great.
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: lets have good toolsets for them
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: I am all for that
[12:04] Aine.Caoimhe has anyone tried to do any terraforming recently that doesn't involve mesh terrain?
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: people just need to realize its limits is all
[12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: There's terrain that's not mesh terrain?? ;)
[12:05] Aine.Caoimhe and if so, are your terraforming tools as borked as mine?
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: theres anything that isnt mesh :P
[12:05] Arielle.Popstar whats mesh terrain ;P
[12:05] Aine.Caoimhe you know *exactly* what I mean
[12:05] Ubit Umarov: yeap  vars dont use mesh, ode neither
[12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Haven't done terraforming for a while. Some of the tools have always been kinda screwy at times though.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: Aine I have not terraformed the standard terrrain in a very long time
[12:05] Aine.Caoimhe you should try it, Neb
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: answering that honestly
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: they never worked well for me
[12:06] Aine.Caoimhe it's badly broken
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: so im probably not a good person to ask
[12:06] PcTek CyberStar: all you need do to reinitialize the metaverse, is get new physics running on a var and divide by zero while lifting the terrain.
[12:06] Ubit Umarov: only bullet converts terrain to mesh on standard regions
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: becasue i never liked how they work, not ever
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: terraforming has only sporadically gotten love from core, and then not for a long long time now. Last fixes I remember were to speed up db updates.
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i was one of the first people doing non standard terrains in opensim
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: beacuse of that
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: Adam and I wrote a sculpty creator
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: I could take L3DT terrain
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar Robert did some fixes a while back for bullet
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: and run it through this tool
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: and it would spit out 200 sculptmaps
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: then we wrote another upload tool
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: that would reassemble it all
[12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: The base terrain system is very old and the tools are pretty much what they were in SL
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: im sure you have seen some of my islands :)
[12:08] Ubit Umarov: but issue is only with bullet?
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: those tools use raycast
[12:08] PcTek CyberStar: nd so i had to redesign it with traditional terrain.
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its using physics raycast?
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it though
[12:08] Aine.Caoimhe I haven't tried terraforming using ODE recently
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar there was some slowness and brokem bit after vars came in
[12:08] OtakuMegane Desu: Once the possibilities of sculpty and then mesh terrain came about I think many gave up improving the standard terrain.
[12:08] Aine.Caoimhe but now vs a year or two ago is very badly broken
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i bet its Bulletsim
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: Mesh terrain has so many advantages over the standard terrain. It's just no comparison.
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: it has to remake the physics everytime you change
[12:09] PcTek CyberStar: cout << "Please do not build your terrain up from tiny prim gravel, it is senseless to have 50,000 gravels to fill in a hole. " <<endl;
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: well on the avnmerge branch  o disabled  terrain undo for now
[12:09] Aine.Caoimhe mesh terrain can only take 1 texture though
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its so intensive it lags the tools
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: are you running bulletsim in its own thread?
[12:09] Aine.Caoimhe yes
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: k
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: mesh terrain can take up to 8 textures.
[12:09] OtakuMegane Desu: I use standard terrain still but almost always design it outside then use the tools to make minor tweaks.
[12:09] Ubit Umarov: didnt like loosing 16MB or ram on each mouse click
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: you really cant make a mesh terrain that is 1 solid piece
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: that is higher qualit than the LL terrain
[12:10] Marcus Llewellyn: You can. But you shouldn't. ;)
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: no you really cant
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: becasue of physics
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: you will exceed 16 bit limits
[12:10] Aine.Caoimhe well
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: and using reduced physics on terrain is nono
[12:10] PcTek CyberStar: 2^4
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: there will be spots you sink in terrain or floatabove it
[12:11] PcTek CyberStar: remember terain mesh 0110
[12:11] Aine.Caoimhe if you're bored some day go to a flat piece of land and try to raise it a little, then try to lower it a little and you'll see what I mean
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: so if you want higher you have to make tiles
[12:11] Aine.Caoimhe to raise terrain you have to be at least at about 30% strength
[12:11] Aine.Caoimhe vs if you lower at 30% strength you'll dig an instand DEEP hole
[12:11] PcTek CyberStar: granularity
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: didnt Aurora have better brushes?
[12:11] Ubit Umarov: well thats the math on the tools i guess
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: and better terrain editing in genral?
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we should look at tht
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe and try smoothing something at minimum stength
[12:12] Arielle.Popstar sounds similar to the issue Roberty had to fix a while back
[12:12] OtakuMegane Desu: I've tried designing terrain just using the tools and it's a horrid pain. Once I got used to L3DT that was it lol
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: bet those 2 areas of code are very similar
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe it used to work somewhat well
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe but then about a year ago it was broken
[12:12] Arielle.Popstar sounds like he may need to fix again]\
[12:12] PcTek CyberStar: maybe we need better source code auditing
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: and this is on Vars?
[12:12] OtakuMegane Desu: Smoothing is probably the most messed up tool. It's always been a mess in my experience
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: what about on a standard 256m region?
[12:12] Aine.Caoimhe
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: is it bad there as well?
[12:13] Aine.Caoimhe that's on a 256x256 standard region under Bullet
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: if its only vars that kind of makes more sense
[12:13] PcTek CyberStar: whoever is making these strange changes to obscure pieces of code should be logged in the system.
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: no one has really changed this code
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: but vars and physics have changed
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: could be why
[12:13] Marcus Llewellyn: All code commits are logged.
[12:13] Aine.Caoimhe and
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think anyone has touched terrain editing tools in quite some time
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: its certainly an effect of something else being changed
[12:14] Aine.Caoimhe sometime last summerI think
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: unexpected consequences
[12:14] OtakuMegane Desu: Only changes I can even remember to terrain editing were the commands added in a while back. Forget who committed those...
[12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: We need a GSOC student. :)
[12:14] Marcus Llewellyn: Or five.
[12:14] PcTek CyberStar: the repos should reflect if any changes were made to that section of the code in he security logs
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: yea its a shame the bar is so high
[12:14] Aine.Caoimhe I was trying to do some terraforming today and it's hopeless
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: on GSOC
[12:14] Richardus.Raymaker did robert not checked some terrain stuff ?
[12:15] Ubit Umarov: well flat smoth are tricky to use
[12:15] OtakuMegane Desu: They always have been
[12:15] Aine.Caoimhe the only way I could do it was manual edits in PS then tertain load
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: you should try the L3DT terrain tools
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: they are quite amazing
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: butits hard to figure out
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: once you do though its fantastic
[12:15] Aine.Caoimhe it's drastically *worse* than it was a couple of years ago, anyway
[12:15] Richardus.Raymaker Yes. but... not good to get the right effect.
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: yea its always good to have the inworld tools
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: for finishing touches
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: and if the tools are rough
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: you cant do finishing work
[12:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. It's a learning curve but once you get used to it, it is great. I usually design outside then import terrain and use the tools for minor touch-ups.
[12:16] PcTek CyberStar: my poin is the need to kep security logs is not the sae as the relationship to accountability...
[12:16] Ubit Umarov: well then we can trace commits back to when it was better :)
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: pcTek we do
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: Git tracks everything
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: no one can sneak code in
[12:16] PcTek CyberStar: basically if somoene makes a thousand changes and destabilizes the code very bad they should be off the project
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: or do stuff secretly
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: its 100% impossible
[12:16] Marcus Llewellyn: All code contributions are looked at and approved by members of core.
[12:16] PcTek CyberStar: and the repository should pull up an older working copy of the code
[12:16] OtakuMegane Desu: Do we have a time frame of when the tools were last know to not be screwed up?
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: do you know how Git works PcTek?
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: we use gi
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: git*
[12:17] Aine.Caoimhe 0.7.6 they were working for sure
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:17] PcTek CyberStar: i hope it works better than the one microsoft has that's a nightmare
[12:17] Aine.Caoimhe I don't think I did any terraforming under 0.8.0 so I'm not sure about it
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: with git you can see the history and changlogs of every patch ever
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: since day 1
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: there is a tool called git blame
[12:18] PcTek CyberStar: but is it notation, or is it showing who checked it ot and made real changes or both
[12:18] Shez Oyen: lol
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:18] Arielle.Popstar it was around the time that vars/bulletsim was introduced and mega's were broken
[12:18] OtakuMegane Desu: 0.7.6 is a massive time jump. I've done terraforming on and off on a regular basis but I just got used to the tools being a pain I probably can't say when something might have gone more wrong. :P
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: changelogs record just what is changed
[12:19] Marcus Llewellyn require sno paltry tool to place blame. His finger can simply point to any convenient party. :)
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: and versioncontrol allows us to checkou any verison we want
[12:19] PcTek CyberStar: so we can check why this new strange error in terraforming hs appeared
[12:19] PcTek CyberStar: and who may be at fault
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: we can do a gitbisect
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: between a working and broken version
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: to find the exact version that broke it
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: we have plenty of good tools
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: we also hvae jenkins
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: everytime someone checks in code
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: jenkins runs unit tests and compiles
[12:20] OtakuMegane Desu: Well we have a back limit if 0.7.6 was still fine. And it sounds like these problems have been going for a while. Like, all of this year?
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: tells us instatly if that code compiles or not
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:20] PcTek CyberStar: compiling as you well know is very different from functioning as designed
[12:20] Aine.Caoimhe broken before Jan 2015 yes
[12:21] Aine.Caoimhe if I had to guess I would say broken sometime between March 2014 and August 2014
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: thats what unit tests are for PcTek
[12:21] PcTek CyberStar: it is starting to look suspicious.
[12:21] OtakuMegane Desu: Ok, so somewhere between 0.7.6 and the end of 2014
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: we have 100s of unit tests that run
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: to make sure the code spits out the right answers
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: its not perfect
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: but its pretty good
[12:21] Nebadon Izumi: after that our testers usually find bugs within a few hours or days
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: some sneak by for months and years
[12:22] Marcus Llewellyn: Honestly, terraforming is probably one of those things that is based on code based on cade that goes back to 0.4. It's always been quirky at best. I suspect the only real fix is for someone to do a complete rewrite of that part of OpenSim.
[12:22] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[12:22] Aine.Caoimhe it certainly was never *good*
[12:22] Aine.Caoimhe but it was a lot better in the past than it is currently
[12:22] Grid: Objekte wurden erfolgreich freigegeben.
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: yea I would say becasue of everything else going on right now
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: its not a good time to deal with terrain stuff
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but if someone sends in patches
[12:23] OtakuMegane Desu: It's the same system used in SL. And that hasn't really changed since it was created.
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: I'll be the first to check them out
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its unlikely the core team will have time until after next release
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: which hopefully is soon
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: Diva is traveling
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: after she is back we will talk about release
[12:24] Marcus Llewellyn: (Diva has escaped.)
[12:24] PcTek CyberStar: perhaps justin could look at it
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: Jusin is no longer working on opensim
[12:24] PcTek CyberStar: perhaps robert coudl look at it
[12:24] OtakuMegane Desu: So whatever broke was probably in 2014 sometime. That's a workable range.
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: he isnt gone for good but he has a new job and will not be working on code for a bit
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: but ya there are plenty of devs around
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: until the big avinationmerge is done though
[12:25] Marcus Llewellyn: Perhaps you could look it. We can't really go around volunteering core memners for tasks. ;)
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: i dont tink anyone will have much time for that
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: Robert and Diva and Melanie and Ubit are all working on that
[12:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Well we can at least try to track down suspects
[12:26] OtakuMegane Desu: In the meantime
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: if someone sends in patches I can look and apply them
[12:26] PcTek CyberStar: i know there are some psychologists in the grid, if we find the suspect, we could get the shrinks to guilt trip them into expedient repair.
[12:26] OtakuMegane Desu: lol
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:26] Arielle.Popstar get rid of terraforming and bring in voxels ;)
[12:26] Marcus Llewellyn ponders sticking a form in this meeting.
[12:27] Marcus Llewellyn: er, fork
[12:27] OtakuMegane Desu: Trap them in a region full of screaming spengbabs
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: honestly if you want good terrain
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: dont use the in world terrain tools
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:27] Nebadon Izumi: even in SL the suck
[12:27] Richardus.Raymaker Noo, in SL is pretty good. OS is always pain.
[12:28] Richardus.Raymaker What's next you say neb./ don't use opensim ?
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno I hate how LL implemented terrain
[12:28] Richardus.Raymaker :P
[12:28] OtakuMegane Desu: They may not be as buggy but they're still not great in SL
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar the viewece toor used can make a differen
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: i hate how terrain textures work
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: i hate how rough the tools are
[12:28] Arielle.Popstar the viewer used can make a difference
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: like you cant easily cut out a perfect squared off trench
[12:28] PcTek CyberStar: perhaps if we switch the bulldozer for a microscope?
[12:28] Richardus.Raymaker yeah terrain textures are bad
[12:28] OtakuMegane Desu: It's an ancient system really. LL came up with a basic terrain and never did much after that.
[12:28] Nebadon Izumi: it gets super wrinkled
[12:29] PcTek CyberStar: just changing the icon can help to implant the idea of finer granularity
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: i can make better terrain with a napkin and laser scan it
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:29] OtakuMegane Desu: XD
[12:29] PcTek CyberStar: lol
[12:29] Marcus Llewellyn: He's not kidding. lol
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: im super picky
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: i want control of every pixel
[12:30] PcTek CyberStar: i hope you have the taste to use cloth napkins, and not those cheap paper ones with mcdonalds written on them
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: and the LL terrain is kind of just always an aproximation of what you wanted
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: its never quite perfect
[12:30] PcTek CyberStar: hmmm there must be a solution
[12:30] OtakuMegane Desu: The textures don't even stay the same, they shift :P
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:30] OtakuMegane Desu: Though I never noticed until you pointed it out years ago
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: there are some good tools out there
[12:31] PcTek CyberStar: perhaps if we reduced the steppage of the terrain by a factor of 10
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: Blender has awesome terrain tools
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: many good tutorials out there
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: L3DT
[12:31] PcTek CyberStar: or coded a checkbox in that allowed manual entry of the step size
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: im sure many other free options
[12:31] PcTek CyberStar: the terrain manipulation needs to respond faster, we could use inline assembly language in that part of the sharp code.
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:32] OtakuMegane Desu: As with mesh design there's lots of external options, but not so much in-world. WHich is what is ultimately needed.
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: this is using ANT in blender
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: ya i am all for improving the in world tools
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: they should atleast work how they are intended to work
[12:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Heh. Inline IL won't change anything, and would probably never get past core.
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: but im not sure we can make them work any better than that
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: there is always going to be limits
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: without a complete viewer overhaul
[12:32] OtakuMegane Desu: Well yeah
[12:33] PcTek CyberStar: assembly runs 100x faster than even optimized c or c#
[12:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Any big change is a long ways down the road obviously
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: its also 101x harder PcTek
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: thus nullifying any benefit
[12:33] OtakuMegane Desu: But the current terrain system needs to go as default. Mesh would be nice if it could be manipulated in the viewer
[12:33] OtakuMegane Desu: That's just a huge undertaking ti implement
[12:34] Marcus Llewellyn: It isn't a code speed issue, PcTek. It's a network speed issue. When changing terrain, you're shoving a TON of UDP traffic around. A constant stream of updates from the vewer, to the sim, to services. It's a networking blast.
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: yea remember all of this is streaming
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes 1000s of miles
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: forget mesh for normal terrain
[12:34] PcTek CyberStar: i've written inline assembly before, it's great for finding the spots in your program that are bottlenecks and using inline assembly there, the entire program can speed up drastically changing the user experience ratios
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: a 6x6 var region is literally 100s of MB of updates
[12:34] Nebadon Izumi: when you are editing
[12:34] Ubit Umarov: MB had to not use them on large regions...
[12:34] PcTek CyberStar: oh yes i forget about the var regions
[12:34] PcTek CyberStar: :(
[12:35] OtakuMegane Desu: We already saw bottleneck issues with the parcel overlays on vars and that's just a 2D mapping
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya we are using this stuff in ways it was never intended to be used
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: i changed that neb on the avnmerge
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: cool
[12:35] Ubit Umarov: but i still don't like the code for terrain
[12:36] OtakuMegane Desu: I don't know that anyone really does. We're just stuck with it for now
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: i was changing it for avn when the merge arrived :)
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: I think it can get better
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: and will eventually
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: but it will take time
[12:36] OtakuMegane Desu: I just wish you could make caves and stuff
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: all of this takes a lot of time
[12:36] PcTek CyberStar: hmmm
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: its a lot of work
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: and devs only have so many sets of eyes and arms
[12:36] Ubit Umarov: bah u do not want caves :p
[12:36] OtakuMegane Desu: That's probably my only true complaint. But it's a limitation of using heightmaps
[12:37] Richardus.Raymaker Not in this live. mabye you can build opensim on top of soemthing else someday
[12:37] PcTek CyberStar: hmmmmm
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: well modern heightmaps have a flags field
[12:37] Aine.Caoimhe one thng I'd really love to see which was discussed at one time was water heighmaps too
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: one it no collide :)
[12:37] Aine.Caoimhe *heightmaps
[12:37] Ubit Umarov: but viewers will not suport that  bahh
[12:37] Marcus Llewellyn: We need a hieghtmap format with 1024 layers. One for each vertical meter. >:)
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: personally i dont see how water heightmaps could work
[12:38] Aine.Caoimhe well, currently water is a single flat plane
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: you would not get the results you want
[12:38] OtakuMegane Desu: I'd be good for someone to make the "Linden water" applicable to other surfaces instead of just the single water height.
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you have ever tried making water like that in blender
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: you would fin instant failure
[12:38] Marcus Llewellyn: Honestly, I would be happier just getting rid of water altogether, and doing my own in mesh.
[12:38] Aine.Caoimhe I have
[12:38] Aine.Caoimhe I do waater in Blender quite often
[12:39] Arielle.Popstar s/l water has apability
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: would definitel need to have some kind of mechnism to keep water and terrain from stacking
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: which will happen a lot with 2 hieghmaps stacked
[12:39] Marcus Llewellyn: The only downside is that we need volumetric effects for under the water. That would need viewer dev cooperation, though.
[12:39] Arielle.Popstar capability
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: stacking hieghtmaps is a bad idea
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: if you ask me
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: to many problems you couldnt resolve
[12:39] Marcus Llewellyn: Gawd yes that's a bad idea. I was totally, completely joking when I suggedted mayered heightmaps. lol
[12:39] OtakuMegane Desu: lol
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: z order is a bitch
[12:40] Aine.Caoimhe well, currently you can set water level on a per-region basis
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: especially with transparent
[12:40] Aine.Caoimhe would just be nice to have finer control over that
[12:40] PcTek CyberStar: maybe if we charge $20 a month for sims, we could hire a part time developer
[12:40] Marcus Llewellyn: Use alpha masking instead of alpha blending. z-fighting goes away.
[12:40] Nebadon Izumi: true
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: seems ll considered that  but gaveup
[12:41] Nebadon Izumi: ive been switching all my trees to that
[12:41] PcTek CyberStar: 5,000 sims x 20.00 = 100,000.00
[12:41] Richardus.Raymaker a more scaled build , and betetr avatar camera are important too.
[12:41] OtakuMegane Desu: People have been asking for better water control for a very long time even back into SL
[12:41] Ubit Umarov: the llRaw format as a water map
[12:41] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[12:41] OtakuMegane Desu: I would love to have the nice water in lakes and stuff instead of just the one sea level
[12:41] Aine.Caoimhe water is one of the hardest visual effects to achieve
[12:41] Marcus Llewellyn: It doesn't solve problems like a river flowing sideways, though. Mesh can address that.
[12:42] OtakuMegane Desu: Could that be applied like a texture on a prim?
[12:42] Marcus Llewellyn: Using specular and normal maps, you can do pretty decent water on any old prim.
[12:42] PcTek CyberStar: fubarr is building in osg again, for those who dont know, he is currently on the isle of barr.
[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya i saw awesome water demo
[12:42] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[12:43] Aine.Caoimhe this is what I'd love to be able to do:
[12:44] Richardus.Raymaker Look to new grids for that
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: here it is
[12:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Ohhh, pretties...
[12:44] Aine.Caoimhe I assume that's using normal + specular maps
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: this is how water should be done
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: with mesh and materials
[12:45] Marcus Llewellyn: Amen
[12:45] PcTek CyberStar: oh im so mad right now.
[12:45] Aine.Caoimhe except you can't script any changes to it
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi:
[12:45] Aine.Caoimhe since advanced mats can't be scripted in Opensim
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: yea yet anyway
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: you can animate them here though
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: so even though you cant script changes
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: you can script water
[12:46] PcTek CyberStar: how do they get all the best stuff?
[12:46] PcTek CyberStar: :O
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: we can do that here
[12:46] PcTek CyberStar: we're the first grid
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: everything i showed in tose videos
[12:46] Nebadon Izumi: can be done in opensim
[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: it just requires the talent to do so
[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[12:47] Nebadon Izumi: which is not easily attained
[12:47] Richardus.Raymaker and mabye different viewer
[12:48] OtakuMegane Desu: Just about everything that can be done in SL can be done here. SL simply has a very large pool of users to draw from.
[12:48] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:48] PcTek CyberStar: yes and if you are having issues with cpu use being super high in your viewer try the cooperative switch
[12:48] Nebadon Izumi: most of this stuff is done by highly skilled professionals
[12:48] PcTek CyberStar: like someviewer.exe --cooperative 50
[12:49] Marcus Llewellyn: I hear Alt-F4 can speed it up a lot too. :P)
[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:49] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:49] PcTek CyberStar: marcus this is a real switch
[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:50] PcTek CyberStar: smart alex
[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:50] OtakuMegane Desu: On the terrain tool issues: It looks like Robert did a lot of stuff with terrain in early-mid 2014, including some stuff with update sending. One of those may have broken stuff.
[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: class troll move, fun in first person shooter games
[12:50] PcTek CyberStar: ...
[12:51] Aine.Caoimhe @Otaku: yes, that's roughly when I think it got broken
[12:51] PcTek CyberStar: well at least his physics idea worked out great
[12:51] Marcus Llewellyn: I think that the Hayes disconnect via IRC came first. ;)
[12:51] Aine.Caoimhe but I wasn't doing much (any) terraforming at that time
[12:51] Ubit Umarov: last change i seen i flatten was around 2009
[12:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea those tools havent changed
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: my guess is changes to how var terrain works
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: have added strain
[12:52] Aine.Caoimhe I guess what I should do is switch to ODE and see if it has the same issues
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: maybe that distance limiter things that was added
[12:52] PcTek CyberStar: we need to get lani's clone machine and use it on robert.
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: Misterblue addedsomething that kind of puts focus just around your avatar
[12:52] PcTek CyberStar: give the entire grid an upgrade
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: maybe that is part of the problem
[12:52] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. He was doing a bunch of var fixing in that time frame and much of the terrain stuff was related to the issues vars brought to the table
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: he was changing how terrain loads in vars
[12:52] Aine.Caoimhe there as also a commit at allow you do change height via console of an area
[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: so i imagine this plays a factor in recent changes to tools
[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: maybe threading or something
[12:53] Marcus Llewellyn decides to go with "something" as the safe bet. :)
[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: opensim is a house of cards for sure
[12:53] Aine.Caoimhe the weird thing is in behaviour of raise vs lower
[12:53] Aine.Caoimhe raise is extremely weak vs lower is extremely strong
[12:53] Aine.Caoimhe and you'd *think* that would just be a sign change
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: ohh its gravity!!
[12:54] Ubit Umarov: lol
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:54] PcTek CyberStar: it sur is
[12:54] PcTek CyberStar: omg
[12:54] PcTek CyberStar: look at line #1,287,346,522
[12:54] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim Dev        0f6c3fb: 2015-09-14 23:37:39 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[12:54] Marcus Llewellyn notices that this meeting is now two hours long. :)
[12:55] OtakuMegane Desu: 42f5054408bbd928ea2422dd9abc04ee57c80dc looks like it might be something that could affect tool response?
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: yea long meeting today
[12:55] PcTek CyberStar: i blame it on whaka, for trying to get hi sim fixed.
[12:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:55] OtakuMegane Desu: As I've been thinking, I'm not sure if the tools themselves have been broken, rather they may respond differently with updates.
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: ok well I sadly do have to head out
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: i have a mountain of work over the next 5-6 days
[12:56] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Goodbye..
[12:56] OtakuMegane Desu: Yay
[12:56] PcTek CyberStar: goodbye Nebadon, please give serious thought to guiding whaka step by step through getting his crashed sim up and running.
[12:56] Aine.Caoimhe yeah, I need to go pretend to be productive as well
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: I wont have time for that PcTek
[12:56] Aine.Caoimhe have a good week eveyrone
[12:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Yes. Productive. ;)
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: but if you have questions hop on IRC
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: lots of helpful folks
[12:56] Richardus.Raymaker Well. i better move too. something todo
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: and if Ican I will
[12:56] PcTek CyberStar: thank you
[12:56] Nebadon Izumi: but my time is limited at the moment
[12:57] Arielle.Popstar Misterblue robert did do some fixes but guess they reverted
[12:57] Sheera.Khan Ciaoo Neb, I'll posting the log in some minutes
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: thanks Sheera
[12:57] Nebadon Izumi: see you all next week or perhaps on IRC
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