Chat log from the meeting on 2015-08-18

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[11:03] Sheera Khan: Hi Neb :-)
[11:04] Shez Oyen: Hey Neb :)
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:04] Richardus.Raymaker hi shez, neb\
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, nebadon
[11:04] Shez Oyen: Rich :o
[11:05] Richardus.Raymaker Am at the point of no return, or close to. it. pretty far with clean 10 installation. but the bugs.. possible running back to 7
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: I am not having any trouble with Windows 10
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: runs great on my laptop
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: Bugs in Windows? How shocking ... not.
[11:06] Richardus.Raymaker laptob. dump simple device :O and you possible don't use 125% dpi
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: actually this laptop is pretty complex
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: it has dual SSD Riad
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: and a spinning hard drive
[11:07] Drake Arconis kommt in Chat-Reichweite (12.99 m).
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: My laptop downloaded and installed Win 10 recently. I haven't done much with it other than remove a lot of stuff it installed which I don't want. I check a few programs to see they still start. That's about all I've done with it.
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: the best part about Windows 10
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: is the built in video recording tool
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, my fathers computer did the self update thing. His screen is running at the maximum font size.
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i recorded this on my laptop
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: using the xbox recording tool
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. I removed a bunch of Xbox stuff as I don't have an Xbox.
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker Yeah, i forgot remote desktop works better on 10. it's also better toi stay on 120. and the few bugs. some get fixt with Secondslife viewer already.
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker lol the mp4 is corrupt
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: you dont need an xbox
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus try chrome
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: in FF you might have to refresh a few tmes
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: FF is sucking lately
[11:09] Richardus.Raymaker i never go install crappy chrome. using firefox
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker i hate chrome.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: try refresh once or twice
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe hi Lance & Lavy
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, yea. For several releases FF won't even save my open tabs/windows during shutdown.
[11:10] lavender -pretty: hello Aine
[11:10] Lance Fang: HIya Aine!
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker hmm refresh diud something
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe kommt in Chat-Reichweite (9.31 m).
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker hi aine
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker extreme slow
[11:10] Richardus.Raymaker aha it plays
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: yea bug in FF or something
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: not sure why that happens
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its only firefox
[11:11] Richardus.Raymaker is the prim or esh neb. i have idea's to start building again too
[11:11] Dahlia Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.78 m).
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe sorry I'm latae
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: that model is mostly prim
[11:11] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: which town did you build for that video, nebadon?
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: check out my latest model im working on though
[11:11] Shez Oyen: Hi Aine :)
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: that is Sodertalje
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: in Sweden
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:12] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim Dev        c53f732: 2015-08-17 21:46:30 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: this is Upplands Vasby in Sweden
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that is rendered in Blender
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: will be my first all mesh model
[11:13] Richardus.Raymaker Now the tree's are most intressting to find in opensim
[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe how did you get that fisheye effect? is that just from being in perspective with a huge mesh?
[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe or did you use a very wide-angle lens setting?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: in blender you can set the lens
[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice laptop, btw
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: you can set sensor size and lens mm
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: thanks, its getting on in age now
[11:14] Richardus.Raymaker nice
[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe just curious since there's a very large curve to the horizon....quite like the effect
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: but its still nice machine :)
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: yea im mostly just experimenting Aine
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: im finally getting a grip on blender
[11:14] Aine.Caoimhe was that at something like a 20mm lens?
[11:15] Lance Fang kommt in Chat-Reichweite (15.06 m).
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: 15 or 20
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Hope is isn't a death grip where you are trying to choke the life out of it in frustration ;)
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe anyway...really like gives a great added sense of depth/scale
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: haha andrew
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I would like to spend more time with Blender but I'm working on an RL project where I need Rhino.
[11:17] vegaslon plutonian kommt in Chat-Reichweite (9.17 m).
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: I just hope i can get the entire model uploaded its quite large
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: the whole area im doing is about 800x800m
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe nods
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe positioning everything is going to be lots of fun :p
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: yea I have a bunch of markers
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: to make it easier
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe or bring it in as a linkset and kiss your physics goodbye
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: physics shouldnt be a problem
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its too big for a single object
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe with a linkset I have major problems
[11:19] Richardus.Raymaker betetr do 768x768
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ive uploaded very large linkset mesh with little trouble
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe it will come in but you can't assign physics from file so it has to calculate it
[11:20] Richardus.Raymaker it's more the viewer uploader that restricts you then something else
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe and it seems to do very, very weird things with those calculations
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe if I bring them in 1 piece at a time and let it calculate physics it's fine but if I bring it in as a linkset it goes all screwy
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I assign physics from file and haven't had an issue with it (yet?)
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: here is the whole thing
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe with a linkset, Andrew?
[11:22] Shez Oyen kommt in Chat-Reichweite (17.25 m).
[11:22] Richardus.Raymaker why not use same dae for physics ?
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its not flat at all
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe because using the same sae is horribly inefficient....I can make physcis shape for something in 100 faces vs the mesh itself might be 10k faces
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker yes
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe I don't want to assign a 10k-face physics if I don't need it
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker that's what i always doo
[11:23] Richardus.Raymaker new model
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe if I have 5 objects that I select and export as a single dae, I can't also select 5 low poly physcis objects and assign them to a different dae and have the viewer understand it....even with the same names and same selection order
[11:25] jazzy chatterbox kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.37 m).
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Aine, oh. Done it with a small group of items. Not sure if that counts as a linkset.
[11:25] Aine.Caoimhe I had to do them 1 by 1 then assemble inworld
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: you shouldnt have to really
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: uploading mesh can be a chore though
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: Use the modelling coordinates to let you quickly move the inworld items.
[11:26] Casias Falta: hey jaz
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: an easy way to determine if your mesh falls within the viewer/simulator limitations for vertices and triangles
[11:26] jazzy chatterbox: hello Cas...Everyone :)
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: upload the mesh with Radegast veiwer
[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe or actually what I do is import it once as  a grouped set, then import them 1 by 1 properly, then place and position the group, then unlink it and replace each piece with the proper 1
[11:26] Aine.Caoimhe but that takes forever
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: if you rez it and it looks good with radegast viewer the model is good
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe (if it's a large group, which I often have)
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: however you probably dont want to continue to use uploaded files from radegast
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: becuase radegast only does HIGH LOD
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: for all layers
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its good for terrain and stuff
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe ouch
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but not really complex stuff
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its a good way to test if your mesh is below the limits
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: the limits the viewer can render
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt cut stuff up like the viewer does
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: its basically as is
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: so if it looks good as is
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: then you know your model is good
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: if it looks like a million triangle monster
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: then you have to go back and do more cutting up / splitting of peices etc..
[11:29] Richardus.Raymaker million triangle mosnter the viewer don't accept
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: I have no idea of triangle counts until I pull my models in to Blender.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: i would suggest rezzing these test objects in a sandbox
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: never do this in a production environment
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: cause if your model is too far gone
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: you might have a hard time selecting and deleting itr
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: either that or make sure it has a unique name
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: you can delete object from console
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i have a pdf for limits
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: Model Requirements.pdf
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i created this for Encitra
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: some of it is specific to encitra
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: but its a good generalizaton of the mesh limits
[11:31] Robert Adams kommt in Chat-Reichweite (16.36 m).
[11:31] Robert Adams kommt in Chat-Reichweite (18.50 m).
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: feel free to reformat the doc for your own needs :)
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: anyone else have anything cool going on with opensim?
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe it's interesting that the viewer will allow you to upload a mesh that violates the surfaces limit
[11:33] Richardus.Raymaker some differet questions. or some fixes on the list whit hypergrid friedns, offlineIM etc ?
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: Aine the viewer is semi smart about it
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe but any face > #7 us ubvusuvke
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe *invisible
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer will take peices that exceed limits and break it up
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: however this sucks
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: becuase it does a terrible job
[11:33] Aine.Caoimhe I just hit that today...accidentally tried to upload one with 9 mats
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought the limit was 8 faces
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: if you have ever uploaded a mesh and try to change a texure
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: but it only like 1/2 changes
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe yes 8 faces = 0 - 7
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: and there are a million triangles
[11:34] Richardus.Raymaker i tried it by purpose. and soem parts got invisib;e
[11:34] Sarah Kline kommt in Chat-Reichweite (8.72 m).
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: this means you exceed the limit and the viewer autosplit the geometry to fit in the limits
[11:34] Andrew Hellershanks: 21,844 triangles per face * 8 faces isn't very much.
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe so mat 8 = face #7
[11:34] Richardus.Raymaker lot's of faces. because if you work fbx style *morefun) you don;'t have the stupid sl limnit
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: if this happens you should really fix the model and reupload
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe no, I had 9 mats assigned to the mesh
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe I miscounted
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: 21844 triangles in a game environment is a lot
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe it was only 6k faces
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: yes 8 is the limit
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker i just wanted to know if i could use model i made for soemthing else. bsomeonme got the idea it could work. but it failed
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: if you exceed 8
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker some say 9 is the limit ?
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: it will also split
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: no its 8
[11:35] Richardus.Raymaker yes, i will tell him. i always used 8
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: its the same limit a cube has
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: cube is 6 external sides
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: the hollow middle
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe 8 is the mesh uploaded by the faces assigned to the 9th material were invisible
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and edge cut
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: this is the ultimate limit
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: yes you never want to exceed these limits
[11:36] Casias Falta: Dont know if anybody is interestet but I have been porting small OS builds to Unity3d and then outputing to show on android phones as
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: even if things appear to look ok
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: its usually not
[11:36] Casias Falta: VR for cardboard
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: nice Casias
[11:37] vegaslon plutonian: found out today that Bright Canopy veiwer will start off being 17 dollars a month
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: that sounds about right
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: the Amazon stuff isnt cheap
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: works well enough though
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: you could do it cheaper if you setup your own Amazon AppStream
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: Bright Canopy uses EC2
[11:39] Richardus.Raymaker oh , browser viewer :(
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: so they cant charge by the minute
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: its per hour
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: even if you use 1 minute
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: you get billed for 1 hour
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: with AppStream billing is t the second
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: if you havent seen these
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: i made some vids
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:41] vegaslon plutonian: need a vewer that can be automatically configured to connect to a local network standalone
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: that might be tough
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: unless it does some kind of network scan
[11:42] vegaslon plutonian: is there a file on the os that stores the diffrent grids for the veiwers?
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: would need to have the simulator have some kind of beacon
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer could san for
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: thats in the viewer
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: infact some of the viewers actually pull that info from a centralized website
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer dev teams maintain
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: so even if you edit the xml in the viewer
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: it can revert back to the default
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: depends on te viewer
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: talk with some of the viewer devs
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: there are a bunch who have been spending time working on stuff in #opensim-dev on IRC freenode
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: maybe they have some ideas on how to do that
[11:45] Casias Falta: How do people feel about the guy that is offering a distributable copy of firestorm that has your desired URI configured
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: btw Diva just released a paper on opensimulator study
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: if you are interested
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: Casias I think its a good idea
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: compiling the viewer is not easy
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: even for something so simple as adding your own grid
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: its insanely complex
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: if someone has the skills and thinks they have a service people will use
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: i think its great
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone charges money to build a viewer with their grid URI in it? How do I get in on that action? :)
[11:47] Casias Falta: Well its a matter of running some sort of zip up packaging thing after changing the xml files i believe
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: well I doubt your going to get rich doing that
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: but hey I wont fault anyone for trying to make a living
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: cant do everything for free :)
[11:48] Krysss.Galatea kommt in Chat-Reichweite (17.84 m).
[11:48] Casias Falta: I tried it once and the resulting zip was so large it wasn't any good
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, the viewer is pain to build. Took a long time before I was able to do it. I think it is a bit easier now, or I've just finally cracked the steps needed. Mostly it is about the dependencies you need.
[11:48] Richardus.Raymaker Still not burning my fingers on that
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: its one thing if its just for windows too
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: if your doing it cross platform thats different
[11:49] Casias Falta: yep
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: I think that would be a greater service
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: I've only built viewers under Linux.
[11:50] Casias Falta: I think the grid list is located in an associated xml file so you dont have to reconstruct the viewer itself i believe
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, it is a separate file.
[11:50] jazzy chatterbox kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.91 m).
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: yea probably not, i guess it depends on how far they are taking the customization
[11:51] Richardus.Raymaker then it woudl be pretty ewxpensive the ask for that small change. but mabye the change other things too ?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: grids.xml file under user_settings of where the viewer stores its data for the user.
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: There is also a grids_custom.xml file.
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats probably the one
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: I think some viewers will reset grids.xml if its changed
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: Singularity uses grids_sg1.xml. The grids.xml file is probably the one used by Second Life viewers.
[11:53] Casias Falta: I believe that firestorm also does a call to their website to refresh one or both of those files on start up
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: That sort of thing has messed things up for me in the past.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: anyone is interested there is a lot of good free 3d content on this site
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:56] Richardus.Raymaker aha. not looked at the 3d art section. i know the side
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: hmm wierd url on that second link
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: hyperlink breaks
[11:57] Aine.Caoimhe ty Neb
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: there are some really nice plant packs
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and kits
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll check it out later.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: like 77 pages of models
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: its not a ton of stuff
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: nice.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but some of the stuff is really high quality
[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker but how much is useable ?
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: id say more than 1/2
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of blender files too
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: which is nice
[11:58] Richardus.Raymaker k
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd be interested in the terms of service for the models.
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: some will require some fixing / converting etc..
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: you can sort by license
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: there is everything from CC0 to GPL
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: its all open source
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: its just a matter of attribution
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: you should always give attribution regardless in my opinion
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: I hate trying to make sense out of licences.
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: yeah
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: even though i generally dont care about getting attribution myself
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: if you can make money with my content some how, have at it
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker it's only hard todo in OS. because there's no option for that
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: i make a notecard
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: or put URL in description field
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: its not perfect but best we can do
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:00] Richardus.Raymaker Uhh, i mean personal use. then i think it's impossible
[12:01] Aine.Caoimhe okies...I need to run.....have a good week everyone
[12:02] jazzy chatterbox: take care Aine
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: you too, Aine. See you next time.
[12:02] Richardus.Raymaker bye aine
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya thanks for coming everyone, same time next week
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: I need to get back to work on this model
[12:02] Casias Falta: cu Aine
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: i'll be on IRC anyone needs me
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm going to get back to working on an RL electronics project
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: Sheera can you post log please?
[12:03] Richardus.Raymaker oh conopy is not broser based but just remote desktop style.. at least i don't hope it runs in browser
[12:03] Casias Falta: thanks for the discussion folks cu later
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Casias
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it can run in browser Richardus
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: I know there is a Chrome Plugin
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but there are standalone client as well
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks fires up his Raspberry Pi
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: ok have to run, talk soon :)
[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker ok, heading home
[12:04] Richardus.Raymaker bye all
[12:04] jazzy chatterbox: take care everyone
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: I better grab log incase Sheera misses it
[12:05] vegaslon plutonian: yep raspberry pi and that veiwer and you got a good contender to minecraft for the kids
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