Chat log from the meeting on 2015-07-21

From OpenSimulator

Jump to: navigation, search
[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: I think some is/was simply because the default stuff couldn't scale well enough
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: obviously there are limits to how they implement just due to sheer scale
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: then the default stuff need to improve
[11:04] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: ^ Just what I was thinking
[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Talking about FSAssets?
[11:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Assets has been the biggest one I believe, yes
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: well, it seems that's only for large grids
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but they at least need to make their non-core stuff compatible with core
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: otherwise they're causing serious issues when HGing
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: if it's not opensim that gives problems , the viewer will be someday
[11:05] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: any OSG user hits our grid entry about 2x to 3x as hard as visitors to other grids while the region and grid server deal with all the errors OSG throws
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: when we have visitors from Kitely or the Nook or Metro they use a lot fewer resources on entry
[11:06] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: groups and profiles isnt due to scaling, they just stuck with the old non core stuff to avoid any migrations when the core modules arived
[11:06] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and typically use half the memory
[11:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Though if non-core or customized things are going to be a thing, Opensim should handle them better as well.
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well, how much of that onus is on Opensim vs on the non-core module writers?
[11:07] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: personally I think if you use non-core modules you need to keep them up to date to be compatible with Opensim, not the other way around
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: Opensim is already f***ed up enough trying to maintain support for versions as ancient as 0.72
[11:08] OtakuMegane Desu: If Opensim is going to be designed to handle outside modules then it needs to have a solid hook point and guidelines. Then it's up to module writers to meet those guidelines
[11:08] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes...it's very poorly documented, that's for sure
[11:09] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i recently found that on sim startup, two map tiles are generated, one for v1 maps and another for v2-3, waste of resources
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi kommt in Chat-Reichweite (10.64 m).
[11:10] Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:10] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi nebadon
[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Really? Why would that even be a thing...
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: hello sorry I am late, totally got distracted
[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu kommt in Chat-Reichweite (4.52 m).
[11:10] OtakuMegane Desu: Hey Neb :)
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @Alicia...is there any chance you might be able to look at the way xml are being done....it seems anything made by a linux system is borked if you try to open it in a sim running underr Win
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: what\s the logic about that alice ?
[11:10] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I believe AIAustin or Ferd found the source of the problem
[11:10] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: the map modules for v1 and v2-3 work totaly independently of each other
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: something that linux is appending to a name
[11:11] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: is there a mantis aine?
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: a colon or semi-colon
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: let me see if I can find it
[11:11] Sarah Kline kommt in Chat-Reichweite (8.72 m).
[11:11] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: at present it's wreaking havoc on almost all HG asset transfers
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: what is the problem?
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ive been moving HG stuff around like crazy lately
[11:12] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: there is an issue with fs assets config that i need to look at, havnt had time these past few days
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: tyou don't run Windows, Neb
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: oooh
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: right I saw that mantis
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: its a path thing in ini right?
[11:12] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you send something to someone standing in a Win-hosted sim it will fail to unpack
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya we should fix that asap for sure
[11:13] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, Ir at least I gather from what AiAustin and Ferd found ti's a case where linux is appending a colon or semi-colon somewhere that it shouldn't
[11:13] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: the fs assets yes, i dont see why its causing problems, its the same format as other config includes and i checked the line endings of the ini examples i added
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hmm wierd
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: that may be a difference in mono vs .net
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: not something we are doing
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: there are other places that has happened too
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we can probably avoid it though
[11:15] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can't find the mantis on it....someone probably closed it thinking they'd fixed it
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: so your saying someone running fsassets on windows Aine?
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: or just a simulator running windows that connects to fsassets?
[11:16] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: xml and fsassets different issues neb
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: I missed some of the conversation I think heh
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, this has nothing at all to do with FAssets
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: this one aine ? http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7640
[11:16] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no it's not map tile generation
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's straight HG object transfer
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: ok
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I pick something up while HGed or you send me something
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: there was a bug in older simulators
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: that justin introduced just prior to OSCC
[11:17] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: ah thats the patch i submitted for the double maptile render waste of resources on startup
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: that diva fixed recently
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the originating region is running linux and you then try to rez it in Windows
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: anything transfered over HG during that time
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (in a reggion runing windows)
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: that object is likely permascrewed
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it will fail
[11:17] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nope
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can tp to a region running linux and it will rez
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and then when I take it back into inventory and go to my win-hosted region it's fine
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: running old code?
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's only when sent via HG
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: this is fixed in master already
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: but again
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: those objects are permanantly going to be damaged
[11:18] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: both running the most current code there is
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: and these are older objects though?
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: if the object was transferd before the bug fixed
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: those objects will never rez properly ever again
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: the originals in source grid will be fine
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: this is a brand new object, newly created
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: but any copies in the remote HG region will be broken
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: wierd
[11:19] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002 kommt in Chat-Reichweite (4.30 m).
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and "packed" in a region running current git master under linux
[11:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then send that you over HG
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and if you stand in a Windows-hosted region it WILL NOT rez and will throw error message on your console
[11:20] Wolf.Freeman @free-world.spdns.de:8002: hello
[11:20] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi wolf
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you stand in a linux-hosted region is will be fine
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hmm wierd I wonder if divas fix got undone or something
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: this sounds exactly like what she just fixed a few weeks ago
[11:20] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and if you rez it in that linux-hosted region, then take it back into inventory, then go to your win-hosted region it will be fine
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: I will try that out later
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: have to fire up a windows VM
[11:21] Minerva McGonagall kommt in Chat-Reichweite (6.12 m).
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: we are running under Melanie's git of 2015-07-14 which is the top of the list
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so most recent git there is
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: melanies git?
[11:21] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: r/26106
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=c7f6e248e8544200871a1bf814f34e2ee0f9d977
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's is the most recent commit to git master
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and that's what the regions are running under
[11:22] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=shortlog&p=opensim
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: k
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i will give this a shot in a bit
[11:23] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: unless there are some commit hiding, that's the most recent one
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it is
[11:24] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: neb, if you get time could u test my map patch at some point?
[11:24] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can't find the Mantis on it
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:25] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: shocking waste to see two tiles generated at startup like that
[11:25] OtakuMegane Desu: Aine, if you had a watch on that bug you might be able to find it that way
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: looks good Alicia i'll try it out in a bit
[11:27] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then I'd have 1000 Mantis in my watch list and still not be able to find it :p
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble kommt in Chat-Reichweite (19.90 m).
[11:27] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: cool thanks neb
[11:29] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: aiaustin is very quick to close mantis issues, he just closed one that i still have outstanding question and additions, totally disregarded my comments and closed it :(
[11:30] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you can always reopen it
[11:30] OtakuMegane Desu: Sounds like aisustin needs some schooling in when to close reports.
[11:31] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i noticed in the past he has closed his bug reports with comments like, found a way round it, or not using this anymore
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: well just let him know, Ai is a nice guy
[11:32] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: k, i will reopen it later
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia :)
[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Saying "found a way around it" when closing a report isn't good. The "way around" should be documented in case others will find the method useful.
[11:33] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: yep
[11:34] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: speaking of documentation, I went to load an oar the other day and there are bunch of switches that are NOT documented anywhere
[11:35] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: which ones?
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: console says: load oar [--merge] [--skip-assets] [--default-user "User Name"] [--force-terrain] [--force-parcels] [--no-objects] [--rotation degrees] [--rotation-center "<x,y
,z>"] [--displacement "<x,y,z>"] [<OAR path>] - Load a region's data from an OAR archive.
[11:35] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: almost none of those are documented
[11:36] Simulator Version v0.5 ruft: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        a7543a3: 2015-07-13 19:04:45 +0200 (Unix/Mono)
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/OpenSim_Archives
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the only documented switches are skip assets and merge
[11:36] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: none of the others are
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: part is possible in some way documented by the var oar loading
[11:37] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Load_Oar
[11:37] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: they are all on that page i think
[11:37] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk
[11:38] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then there needs to be a link to that from the archiving page since when you're trying to find that information is isn't something readily discovered
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: anyone can edit the wiki :)
[11:39] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: fine, I'll do it and if I break the page so be it
[11:39] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: Aine, the main page u linked has the link to that page under the heading Switches sub heading Loading
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: if you break something just let me know
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: wiki has version control
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: its very easy to revert
[11:40] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: it says "This is an overview of the most common parameters. There are many more documented at Load Oar. "
[11:40] UUID Speaker: barbara68.resident @astraliacraft.it: b446a0b7-e4c0-4c83-8352-c3363e66f91c
[11:40] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess it must be my bad eyesight...I didn't see that link
[11:41] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: it doesnt standout very well
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: it's not your eyes. it's the tinmy font tick the world have this days :O
[11:41] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I have trouble differentiating almost-black blue from black
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: that's other tick of the world. use bad contrast between back and foregorund colors
[11:42] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: back in the old days a hyperlink was usually an almost a cyan blue which stood out
[11:42] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: neb, u have worked on traffic sim modules yes?
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: for me the link is orange
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: well Encitra has a traffic simulator module
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: its very rough
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: not something we will share
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: its not very practical
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: because it reuqires its own dedicated simulator
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: outside of your models simulator
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: its very wierd how it works
[11:43] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: im working on one at the moment, wondering if im going about it the right way
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: how ours works its 2 parts to the module
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: the traffic simulator tiself
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and then a listener module on the model simulators
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: because our models are soo insanely huge
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: vehicles need to cross borders regularly
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: possible i used that link in the past "documented at Load Oar." but i dont see any difference at all between the link and text. only when you touch it with the mouse.
[11:44] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i havnt even considered crossing sims yet lol
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: so we have a dedicated simulator that runs the traffic simulation, and sends the data to the listener on the model simulator
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and projects the vehicles into the main simulator
[11:45] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: it doesnt use physics does it?
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: this way a car can drive acrosss multiple regions
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: no physics
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: use a var
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: we do
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: but our models consist of 15 vars
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: but that works only good up to n sims
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: these are gigantic models
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: several square miles
[11:46] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: im using direct position updates and phantom cars, the update thread has to fire every 200ms to make the movment smooth
[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: lrotfl nebadon. think small... that's the size of the battle star galactica
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ya honestly trying to use LSL would be insane
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: you need a dedicated module
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: best to talk with Diva
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: she wrote our traffic module
[11:47] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: not using LSL atall, well the cars signal when they want to go and where to, the module handles the rest
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but ya basically the module does the same thing LSL does
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: without killing xengine
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: with 100s of timers
[11:48] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: does updates every 200ms sound correct?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: as long as it looks visually good
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:48] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: if i try any longer the movment becomes jerky
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: right 200 sounds kind of long to me
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: but if it looks ok
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: see how it looks with dozens of vehicles
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: dont just test with a single vehicle
[11:49] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i had about 20 max sofar, still early days tho
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea you will just have to tinker until it looks right
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: maybe make the timer a configurable variable you can set in ini
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: out traffic sim has a web url
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you can control it from
[11:50] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: working on the node network, it finds the road prims and generates the nodes from their road type and position
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: it displays a very basic website with start / stop
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and some varibales
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: which is served directly from the simulator http
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so you just type like http://mysim.com:9000/trafficcontrol
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: or something
[11:51] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: cool, good to know im on the right tracks lol ty
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: np
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: will you eventually share this?
[11:52] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: im not sure, we havnt talked about that yet
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: cool, if you do let me know Id like to check it out
[11:52] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: kk
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: if you want super low poly test vehicles
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: swing by Sisyphus
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of them
[11:53] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i have the set you uploaded, we are using them lol
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: the rainbow colored ones?
[11:53] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: lil cartoon cars yep
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya those are great
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: I just started using those with ours too
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: those are from blendswap
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: CC0
[11:54] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: yep thats it, saw it in the description
[11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm going to head out a touch early today.
[11:54] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: we wont use them for the final tho, abit too cartoon
[11:54] OtakuMegane Desu: See you again next wek.
[11:54] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: bye andrew
[11:55] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: bye Andrew
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: well Alicia
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: if you want to spend a little money
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: on some super nice mesh vehicles
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i suggest these
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: http://www.marlinstudios.com/products/traffic/traffic.htm
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: oh, men. that beeping from the other sim is still not gone
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: I do not hear the beeping
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: and all objects are invisible so
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: it makes me wonder if you are hearing something from Hypergrid.org still
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: didnt you say that sim exists on that grid too?
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: cam to here and you hear
[11:57] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: nice models thanks for the link
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: oh let me try
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: i think i gound it "Radio Green" going to derender
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: its the little radio
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: yup. it's the radio on the sim
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: mute it
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: https://metropolis_metav/region/Fukushima/132/132/33
[11:58] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: okies...I need to run now too...have a good week eveyrone
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: if you mute it
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: it stops making noise
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:58] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: bye aine
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: that's why i mute it :)
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: see you aine
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya I need to run too
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: uhh derender
[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: I see it now
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: need to get a bike ride in today
[11:59] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: mute it or find a hippo and ask it to sit on it lol
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: ok. bye here time too
[11:59] OtakuMegane Desu: lol
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: ok guys, thanks and see you next week
[11:59] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: bye neb
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: can anyone send me the full log
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: i was like 8-9 minutes late today
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: oh or Sheera
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: can you just post it on wiki?
[12:00] Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: c ya everyone :)
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ok see you all next week
Personal tools
About This Wiki