Chat log from the meeting on 2015-05-05

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[10:59]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi everyone :)
[10:59]  PcTek CyberStar: hi
[10:59]  PcTek CyberStar: * turns on volume
[11:00]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I've been having a weird issue that used to only happen once in a while but now seems to be annoyingly frequent....if someone from another grid HG-IMs me when I'm in one of my own self-hosted regions I receive the IM but any attempt to replay bounces back....if I tp to my Hedonism region which is hosted on the main RG server, I can replay without any trouble at all. Both regions are running identical versions of Opensim and both are configured identically (except for UUID of course) so the only difference is where it's hosted and that my self-hosted is .NET and Hedonism is mono
[11:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi
[11:01]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: has anyone else run into issues like that at all?
[11:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: You mean "user is not online" message when you reply ? that is old problem
[11:01]  PcTek CyberStar: yes.
[11:01]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002 waves uietly hello to everyone
[11:01]  PcTek CyberStar: sometimes when people im me from other grids and i reply back it says they are not there.
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[11:01]  PcTek CyberStar: but they can see it and im me back and i can im them back
[11:02]  PcTek CyberStar: but everytime i im them, the system says they are not online
[11:02]  BlueWall Slade: I see the user offline sometimes
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, it bounced my reply back saying the user isn't onlhine and they don't receive the message yet they're able to IM me without trouble
[11:02]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi
[11:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi
[11:02]  BlueWall Slade: ohhh, I haven't seen that
[11:02]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia
[11:02]  PcTek CyberStar: the strange thing is, it does not always happen that way.
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and then if I simply change to a gird-hosted region IM works fine even though it's still HGIM
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and no, it isn't consistent at all
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it used to only happen once in t ahwile
[11:03]  PcTek CyberStar: hi
[11:03]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin
[11:03]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Hi Justin :-)
[11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it's one of the HG problems next to the problem that offflienIM dont get send to the user when he logins
[11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi justin
[11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but now it's about 75% of the IMs I receive
[11:03]  BlueWall Slade: do you take your home regino offline?
[11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes if I'm in the RG-hosted region I almost never have any trouble replying
[11:03]  BlueWall Slade: does your ip change (dynamic)
[11:04]  PcTek CyberStar: in my case no the ip does not change.
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no, my home-hosted one is only offline when I update
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and IP is static
[11:04]  BlueWall Slade: okm
[11:04]  BlueWall Slade: how are you Justin?
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I use the actual IP when the region connects to the RG server, not a DNS one
[11:05]  PcTek CyberStar: that sounds like a problem with the messenger service not checking the hypergrid status of an avatars presence, but only the local grid.
[11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but it's only outbound, not inbound
[11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so there's no presence check at our end
[11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i don't know what could be wrong with offlineIM.
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm ok bluewall - contrary to expectation, my entire week was absorbed again by something else
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and if I immediately tp to one of our grid-hosted regions it works, so it's not a presense check failure at their end
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it'snot offline IM , RR....they're online, just IMed me, and I'm trying to reply to them
[11:06]  BlueWall Slade: hopefully it was pleasant :)
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: not really, but the super critical phase is at an end. Just critical phases now
[11:07]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: throw the sponges out of the room justin. :)
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: sponges? :)
[11:07]  PcTek CyberStar: well i think hypergridding is great. i'm watching the grid-on-a-stick as opposed to sim-on-a-stick evolve. i think eventually smaller personal grids may experience growth, and hypergrid technology will allow interconnectivity and sharing of creations. maybe another 3 check boxes on objects? hg copy _ hg mod _ hg xfer _ ?
[11:07]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yup. the absorb all your time
[11:08]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: PcTek, HG is good. if messages offline and online work and frienmds online
[11:08]  BlueWall Slade: I am setting up a dev box that I can buiold a network inside and hopefully look at some of these things.
[11:08]  BlueWall Slade: They are rando though, so there must be some variable that triggesr it.
[11:09]  BlueWall Slade: netowrk speed, reliability, etc.
[11:09]  PcTek CyberStar: if random, perhaps it's similiar to the ddosing of the asset server during object import floods?
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: justin, there's no debug option for V2 messaging ?
[11:10]  BlueWall Slade: RiRa - you made some alt accounts to test that with?
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: V2 group messaging?
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i made 1 extra account. i replied on the matis. but it don't make a difference
[11:10]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes justin. well more IM messages
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: person to person IM won't touch V2 groups at all
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: aha. hmm. is there debug info you can get ?
[11:11]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        44b8b9f: 2015-05-04 16:23:16 -0400 (Unix/Mono)
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: for perosn to person IM I suspect not I'm afraid, apart from myabe switching on general http debugging
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: looking with half eyes. sick. so if im slow you know why
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: there might be some for general group messages - don't know how useful it would be
[11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: ok
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry to hear that richardus
[11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: cold can everybody get
[11:12]  BlueWall Slade: ++ get well soon
[11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: could there be an issue of something between grids using core services like we do vs grids running mostly non-core like OSG does?
[11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: thanks
[11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i tried it between metro , metro and my own grid. also did send a message to some other robust grid. she did not get it too
[11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: non-core works better. but dont work at all because it need access to the mysql data from robust. so you cannot place it on webservice and keep robust homne
[11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: Metro is running non-core services too, though
[11:13]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: does metro use robust?
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think the do, not sure wich version
[11:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it uses Robust with an antiquated back end of some sort that they're holding together with duct-code
[11:14]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lol duct code
[11:15]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: :p
[11:15]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Metro switched to 0.8.2 Robust some weeks ago
[11:15]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: anyway. my grid get it, saves it. but not get it out
[11:15]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I dont have an account there, I just hg there once in a while
[11:16]  PcTek CyberStar: intRayMakerImmunity++;
[11:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...but I'm not talking about offline IM storage and retrieval.,...I'm talking about ONLINE ones
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i where thinking, it's not a thing that V2 messaging still need a php script ? by accident
[11:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or has the conversaton moved on from that?
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it goes from online to offline to onlimne aine :)
[11:16]  BlueWall Slade: It should be complete
[11:17]  BlueWall Slade: does xmlrpc groups support HG?
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think so
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes,it does - though it's not really xmlrpc so much as the layer above it iirc
[11:18]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the onl;y thing we talked about i dont see any Hypergrid reference in the json file
[11:18]  BlueWall Slade: ok, thanks
[11:18]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: like bluewall told, mabey it cannot lookup the user from other grid
[11:19]  BlueWall Slade: how many people have 100% failure with this?
[11:19]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: cant say Ive even tried hg groups
[11:19]  PcTek CyberStar: it happens often with me, but sometimes it does not happen.
[11:19]  PcTek CyberStar: i have not taken notice of the location of the other avatars.
[11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: most people i know i think it never worked
[11:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I don't have 100% faulure....from my self-hosted regions I have about 50%-75% faulure vs from one of our grid-hosted regions it's maybe 2%-5%
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: ok, but is this about groups or regular IM (offline)?
[11:21]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and I've had it fail and succeed with the same user in the same grid under the same circumstances as far as which regions we're respectively on
[11:21]  PcTek CyberStar: misconfiguration perhaps?
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: I would suspect that a misconfiguration would fail 100% of the time and probably give error messages
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: << console
[11:22]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I like blamig misconfiguration often :)
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: *pilot error*
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's probably impossible infrastructure to get right
[11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well yeah, I'd be inclined to agree if the ini files for both regions weren't identical
[11:23]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i dont see anything wrong in my case. or it's not documented
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: you effectively have to solve messaging between multiple points in a distributed system - which whole projects are dedicated to
[11:23]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: it might even be soem instances of packets not getting through sometimes
[11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the instance running on the RG server is identical to the one I run on my home server
[11:23]  PcTek CyberStar: well, at least it will be easy to determine if the problem is entirely random.
[11:24]  PcTek CyberStar: Slade, i was wondering about that myself...
[11:24]  PcTek CyberStar: aien are your boxes linux or windows?
[11:25]  PcTek CyberStar: sorry Aine
[11:25]  jerrys avgoustis: hi all
[11:25]  wearable radiooz: 
[11:25]  jerrys avgoustis: hi all
[11:25]  PcTek CyberStar: Slade it would be interesting if it was linked to packet dropping.
[11:26]  jerrys avgoustis: what we have here?
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello jerrys
[11:26]  jerrys avgoustis: first time i see too much peoples
[11:26]  jerrys avgoustis: :)
[11:26]  jerrys avgoustis: let me add some peoples
[11:26]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7556 appears to be a configuration issue, we use 4k x 4k regions
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: this is the weekly opensim dev meeting
[11:27]  PcTek CyberStar: what about this... when I had problems on sL, with packet dropping, i could start a linux box and run 3 separate instances of mtr, and point each instance at a sim in sL that had great stats, this tertiary packet stream, caused routers along the hop-path using a.i. to sort of favorite me, and my packetloss would drop to 0, while the rest of atlantis suffered intermittent connectivity. there's a windows version called winmtr as well.
[11:28]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the Rg-hosted region is mono, mine is .NET
[11:28]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: mtr = my traceroute?
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi is Online
[11:29]  PcTek CyberStar: yes Dahlia. for some reason 1 instance would kick me off faster, 2 would stabilize, and 3 would reduce my home networks packet loss to 0
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: hey everyone sorry I spaced out
[11:29]  Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:29]  BlueWall Slade: hey Neb
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello nebadon
[11:30]  Jack Lemon: HI Neb
[11:30]  PcTek CyberStar: somet
[11:30]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 chastises neb for tardyness...
[11:30]  PcTek CyberStar: something like mtr sim8742.agni.lindenlabs.com etc.
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: I see frame times are out of whack now
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya man I cant beleive i forgot lol
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ah well
[11:30]  BlueWall Slade: ohh the stats are applied.
[11:30]  BlueWall Slade: those are supposed to be real times
[11:31]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: very slow viewer frame rates can also affect packet loss
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I have seen that too
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: when i try to run too many bots
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i cannot say that 20+ most aroun df60fps on empty sims or higher is slow
[11:32]  Jack Lemon: What are your server params?
[11:33]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: no thats probably not slow :)
[11:34]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Off to another meeting, just wanted to add that very large regions have issues, but TP is not one of them, at least for us. BFN
[11:34]  PcTek CyberStar: well we all know ctrl shft 1 can show fps and packetloss in the viewer, so look at that when it happens.
[11:34]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: tup, waitinbg for the panic. it's only 11fps :O
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin have you gotten my emails about Libomv?
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I was completely driven off all week. I am looking now
[11:35]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: what problem billy.
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: k cool
[11:35]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and whats large ?
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I am confused as to why you would want to point libomv.opensimulator.org at vhost.sourceforge.net
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: because baba didnt pay the openmetaverse.org domain renewal
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: and some jerk snagged it
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: and now its homeless
[11:36]  ladyjo martin is Online
[11:36]  PcTek CyberStar: oo
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: lkalif has it running on sourceforge
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but vhost.sourceforge.net just looks like the vhost project
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: and we want to revive the libomv website
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: nothing to do with libomv afaik
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: it uses vhost names resolution
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, it might be best just to drop to the github page
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: you can not just fake it out
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: that means recreating everything on github
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: its already setup on sourceforge
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: what was of value on the website? wiki doc?
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: its just a free web host
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:37]  BlueWall Slade: did he find the docs?
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: the enitre site is still running there
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: they just lost the domain name
[11:38]  BlueWall Slade: honestly, the best docs on that is just to use TestClient to sort out what happens in there.
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: right, but go to vhost.sourceforget.net and you'll see it's just a template webpage
[11:38]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I thought many of the docs were quite old
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: he set it so it will resolve for libomv.opensimulator.org if we set it
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: thats becasue it uses name resolution
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: you cnat just load that page
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: it uses apache vhost to redirect to proper website
[11:38]  Jack Lemon: Actually I met problems you just told about. untill i rise RAM and got a dual core CPU, so now i have no problems anymore, Sorry for delayed coments as the connection i am using at the moment is a bit slow 3G
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I would have thought you would just use the relevant sourceforge project page
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: thats not how it works
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: http://libomv.sourceforge.net/
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: nevermind
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: just leave it then
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: will remain dead i guess
[11:39]  PcTek CyberStar: hummm
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't mind doing it, but I don't see how this could work. I'm probably being think
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: thick
[11:39]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: are you sure openmetaverse.org is not in lock mode. so the owner can still renew it ?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: apache vhosts
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: work by domain name
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: you cant just load the vhost page, its a redirect according the domain
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: you set it up in the back end
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: let me just do it. The worst that can happen is that it doesn't work
[11:40]  PcTek CyberStar: openmetaverse.org says account is suspended.
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/vhosts/name-based.html
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: oh wow
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: lkalif got it back it seems
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: he said he offered the guy 200$
[11:41]  BlueWall Slade: hahah
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: he must have accepted it
[11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: wow
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: amazing
[11:41]  BlueWall Slade: \o/
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: i never thought in a million years that would happen
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: thats crazy
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: 200 is better than 0
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm surprised lkalif would pay for it at all
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: seems like libomv site is still dead
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: do you stil want me to do the cname records?
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: sounds like his heath is improving
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see if he is around
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: that would be good
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: he said he was without a computer since January, he just got a new laptop
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: he is still in the Hospital but said he was improving
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: so that is good news
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: I am shocked he got the domain back
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: that never happens heh
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: domain squatters are almost as bad as cell phone cos.
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: he doesnt seem to be responding at the moment
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll shoot you another email but it seems uneccessary now
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, let me just put the entries in anyway
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya not like it cost us anything
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: worst case we just drop them later if they arent needed
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully lkalif owns it now
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: apparantly Baba owned it previously
[11:46]  PcTek CyberStar: maybe set that up on autopay somewhere?
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: You should have owner level access to the github project now too Justin, you and diva
[11:46]  PcTek CyberStar: so the domain name is not ransomed off for a higher price next time
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: Baba really hasnt been involved for a long time, no doubt lkalif will handle things well
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: just one of those things that got forgotten about i suspect
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: even with autopay, credit cards expire
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: I am glad he added Justin and Christa as admins though
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: no gauranteee
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: glad we dont use creditcards here much
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: cannot get one anyway
[11:48]  PcTek CyberStar: you can set up a once a year autopayment from a checking account.
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: haha, I remember Microsoft's domain name expired once when they first went online
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm brb my doorbell is ringing
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: I immagine that they paid up front for 4-5 years or something.
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: back when they were gung-ho
[11:50]  PcTek CyberStar: iana frowns on dn profiteering especially against .orgs
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: ah, things were different in those days :)
[11:50]  BlueWall Slade: hhah no kidding
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: back, mailman had to sign
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: silkroad or newegg? LOL
[11:51]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: signed packadges., that only can be nice stuff
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: oh ya Justin not sure if you noticed too but Diva had found a bug in some code you wrote back in Octorber
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: or a drug bust!
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: was pretty nasty
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: was preventing taking content from Linux to Windows regions over HG
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: Unfortunately I am still extremely behind on e-mail
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: man
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: she backported it to 0.8.1 post fixes
[11:52]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: if your 100 mails behinmd i think you never get ahead :O
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm, only 450 e-mails behind
[11:52]  BlueWall Slade: heh
[11:53]  BlueWall Slade: that will take a day or two to clear out :)
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimulator.org/viewgit/?a=commit&p=opensim&h=877371411a9e997b0b11f45c410438ae2bb73f16
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: here is the patch
[11:53]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I have 26600 unread emails in my gmail acct :)
[11:53]  BlueWall Slade: :)
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:54]  BlueWall Slade: sound like a telephone dialtone
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: irgh, looks like another SDK difference between windows and mono
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: where the same methods behave differently even thuogh they shouldn't
[11:54]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: something to take care of while having your morning coffee, Dahlia
[11:54]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: mmmm coffee...
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if i recall what diva said mono just seemed to ignore the problem
[11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: https://modemworld.wordpress.com/2015/05/05/lab-confirms-sansar-is-the-new-virtual-platforms-interim-name/
[11:56]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I have one more issue.....
[11:56]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: only one ? :)
[11:56]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I updated to the latest FS version released Sunday....now when I log in there is a delay of about 1 minutes until fetch begins, and then even though my inventory is fully fetch the "fetching...." doesn't resolve itself for about 5 more minues
[11:57]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: is there some message FS is expecting to receive from the region?
[11:57]  BlueWall Slade: who knows?
[11:57]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: (and of course it still hangs 100$ of the time if I log into my own regions)
[11:57]  BlueWall Slade: no one told us if there is .
[11:57]  Cuteulala Artis: Fs causes a firestorm between you and the simulator :P
[11:57]  mattie mcbride is Offline
[11:58]  Cuteulala Artis: i get a freeze up like lock up everything freeze for a 5 secs when teleporting into a region
[11:58]  BlueWall Slade: is that an alpha?
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: Lkalif said that LL made some Inventory changes
[11:58]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no viewer can log into my own region without inventory fetch hanging.,....when I log into a grid-hosted region is will complete the fetch for all viewers
[11:58]  BlueWall Slade: +=
[11:58]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: public beta now
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: I see LL are going to drop their linux support
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: they are dropping a bunch of UDP packets
[11:58]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 has to go, bye all :)
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[11:58]  BlueWall Slade: bye Dahlia
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: sort of Justin
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: they arent totally dropping it
[11:58]  BlueWall Slade: That is sad
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: they are just putting it on the community
[11:59]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but as of Sunday's FS release it's taking 5-6 minutes to *think* it finished the fetch vs what used to take about 10 seconds
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: they will accept linux patches and keep their linux build system going
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: but they wont put much time or effort into bringing new stuff into that viewer
[11:59]  BlueWall Slade: Aine, that would be good to take up with the Firestoprm project ...
[11:59]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so I was just wondering how the viewer determines that fetch has finished?
[11:59]  Cuteulala Artis: another reason windows is better then linux
[11:59]  Cuteulala Artis: Kidding :P
[11:59]  BlueWall Slade: they could tell you if anything changed and alert us so we can adapt.
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: I wouldnt worry to much about it
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the new stuff LL is doing doesnt have much bearing on OpenSim anyway
[12:00]  Cuteulala Artis: yup
[12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: windows.. uhmm sometimes i gte in doubt
[12:00]  Cuteulala Artis: hahahah
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: alot of that stuff wont have any effect on OpenSim at all for the most part
[12:00]  OtakuMegane Desu: OpenSim has its own path for the future
[12:00]  PcTek CyberStar: windows = over 2,000,000 viruses/trojans/spyware linux is what.. under 100 ?
[12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dont worry cute (hi) i use windows sofar
[12:00]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but on linux not much works
[12:00]  Cuteulala Artis: i was kidding
[12:00]  PcTek CyberStar: if you are going to bring up a sim, probably much more secure to do it on linux. <wink>
[12:01]  Cuteulala Artis: i knew it start a win.lin war hahaah
[12:01]  mattie mcbride is Online
[12:01]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: until opensim has its own viewer, it might not be a bad idea for there to be dialog between the TPV and the core devs
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: so Aine your saying Inventory takes longer now on new FIrestorm?
[12:01]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the actual fetch seems to be about the same
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i have not tried FS for a lobng time. is lowering bandwidth not helping ?
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: network slider
[12:01]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: wonde if FS has fixed the var region map problems, i bet not
[12:01]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but switching from saying "fetching" to think that it has finished is taking a *lot* longer
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: cause Lkalif said Oz emailed him a few weeks ago and said they were removing a bunch of UDP packets related to inventory from the viewer code
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: in favor of their new delivery system
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: I wonder if that hit Firestorm
[12:02]  BlueWall Slade: LL’s AISv3 code a
[12:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and if I hjaven't made sure my fetch has finished and I tp to one of my own regions it will crash the region if fetch isn't finished
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe cause some changes
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: but ya I would suggest bringing that back to their devs
[12:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so if the hang for fetch wasn't happening then I wouldn't need to worry about it so much
[12:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but at present I *have* to wait for fetch to finish
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: atleast see if they can determine where the problem is
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: you have to wait to teleport until it finishes fetching?
[12:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: ive seen that kind of happen with Singularity before too
[12:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: because if fetch isn't finished and I go to one of my own regions it tries to finish the fetch from there
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: this might be a fundamental architectural problem
[12:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and it will start to generate 5k fetch requests per minute until I log out
[12:04]  PcTek CyberStar: whoah
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: or a bug because opensim doesn't understand how the new changes work
[12:04]  BlueWall Slade: I gues the change is that LL has moved inventory away from the region and onto a content delivery network?
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: actually more likely the latter in this case
[12:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which I reported a long time ago and which Bluewall and I spent a Sunday afternoon testing on his sim
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I had it happen to me a few days ago when testing the bug that diva fixed for inventory transfer
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: the thing with LL is that they can assume the backend services being used are always the same
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: wherease you can't at all with hg
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes bluewall. sofar i understand the did
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i logged into my local linux grid with cache cleared
[12:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: all of which was posted to mantis
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and teleported before inventory was done
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: CDN/ meh
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and all hell broke loose on the remote region
[12:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yep
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i got all kinds of messages about couldnt contact inventory service or something
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: I was using Replex
[12:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you stand there for about 5 minutes you'll  crash the region
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: well i ended up logging out
[12:05]  BlueWall Slade: I believe that things like that will be pretty hard to deal with.
[12:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it will happen with all TPV I have tried it with
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: because my inventory wasnt actually downloading anymore
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it sends a fetch request, gets a respoinse, then asks for it again
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and does it 5k times per minue
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: *minute
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which is just a little bit nasty on sim traffic
[12:06]  BlueWall Slade: it was actually fetching the inventory many times ...
[12:06]  Cuteulala Artis: seems they release updates without even testing it and assume it will work
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i only watched for maybe a minute total and killed everything and restarted
[12:06]  BlueWall Slade: But, Diva said taht a student found an issue.
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think its a firestorm problem
[12:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if you're lucky the region will recover after a while
[12:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: otherwise you have to restart it
[12:07]  BlueWall Slade: And I guess that was taken care of?
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: and Cuteulala the new firestorm is a beta
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: its not a release
[12:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so....until that bug is fixed I cannot tp to my own regions until inventory fetch is finished
[12:07]  Cuteulala Artis: i still on 4.6.9
[12:07]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: the called it beta because the want to add more things soon. the new Yuck. marketplace stuff.
[12:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and now it's taking 5-6 minutes for FS to think that the fetch is done
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ah ok so that is what is different on firestorm
[12:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: right...on 4.6.8
[12:08]  PcTek CyberStar: wow imagine the impact on the asset server, getting all those messages...
[12:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: with 4.6.8 it was only taking about 10-20 seconds
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: its inventory
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: not assets
[12:08]  PcTek CyberStar: yes inventory server i mean
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: not that its any better but different service
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem I think is
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: it may not actually be hitting the inventory server
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: the message i recall seeming to get
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: was that it couldnt reach the inventory server
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: I assumed it was a hung thread, comms stopped or something
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: i didnt pay it much mind because i was in a rush to test the patch diva was doing
[12:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7054 but I'd been reporting it for a couple nonths in dev meetings prior to the date I logged it
[12:09]  BlueWall Slade: when I checked it, it fetched the items several times over.
[12:10]  BlueWall Slade: Diva said there were competing threads causing it to hang
[12:10]  BlueWall Slade: I don't know if that was patched.
[12:10]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes....it fetches the same items over and over gain
[12:10]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and gets the responses
[12:10]  BlueWall Slade: << or if it may have been wiped over, which sometimes happens.
[12:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: looks like FS dont get end of invetory message
[12:11]  PcTek CyberStar: so basiclaly when teleporting if inventory is loading, that needs to be stopped when the agent leaves that sim. that connection needs to be closed immediately.
[12:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's a serious problem if you're trying to host a party and someone crashes and just relogs directly to the sim
[12:11]  PcTek CyberStar: but how to do it? there must be a way to set a shorter timeout.
[12:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: = party ties
[12:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: *dies
[12:11]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        44b8b9f: 2015-05-04 16:23:16 -0400 (Unix/Mono)
[12:11]  PcTek CyberStar: maybe an active check for the agent presence, and if not there, terminate any inventory request immediately?
[12:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and there's no way to prevent a relog
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll have to test it again
[12:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i recall seeing something different than what is in this mantis thread
[12:12]  BlueWall Slade: But, if this changed in the most recent release, then it is an issue for Firestorm - at least to give feedback as to whether we need to make a change.
[12:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I pretty much never use firestorm ill have to download it
[12:13]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: for the most recent thing, yes
[12:13]  PcTek CyberStar: if ((agent != here)) && (inventory downloading)) { cout << "close request for inventory load" << endl; }
[12:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Sngularity is not updated sofar i know. or already did ?
[12:13]  BlueWall Slade: yes, forget the old thing, because I thin that was fixed.
[12:13]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that's fine, Neb...but FS ios >50% of the TPV market so there are maybe a few Opensim users who use it
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I just mean I havent experienced any of this
[12:14]  BlueWall Slade: Yes - please report the issue to them.
[12:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so might be useful to have some dialog happening between core devs of the two groups instead of via a go-between
[12:14]  wearable radiooz: 
[12:14]  BlueWall Slade: and I don't kow -maybe link it to a new OpenSim mantis?
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: I have no idea how to even reach them
[12:14]  BlueWall Slade: lol, it would
[12:14]  BlueWall Slade: but ...
[12:14]  Nebadon Izumi: they seem unwilling to come to IRC
[12:15]  PcTek CyberStar: jessica lyons maybe?
[12:15]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: 59% of people that visit spellscape use FS
[12:15]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it would help avoid the broken telephone system
[12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, fs don't use irc - they hang out in LL world only afaik
[12:15]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: 29% singularity
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: the only time i ever spoke with Jesicca is at OSCC
[12:15]  BlueWall Slade: for a couple of weeks, yes.
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: not once have I ever seen them outside of OSCC anywhere
[12:15]  BlueWall Slade: they got off on the web viewr tangent ...
[12:15]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: they're in LFG a lot
[12:15]  BlueWall Slade: no Linux 64 builds :/
[12:15]  OtakuMegane Desu: I've seen Jessica around every so often in IRC but not frequently
[12:15]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[12:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: anyway,m if you want me to report it, sure
[12:16]  BlueWall Slade: but LFG does not develop OpenSim
[12:16]  PcTek CyberStar: internet relay chat?
[12:16]  PcTek CyberStar: ok jessica could make it happen.
[12:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but Im' useless compared to having a dev talking to them
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I am not going to LFG heh
[12:16]  BlueWall Slade: if they make changes that break OpenSim, then they need to give us a heads up, or accept bug reports from users ...
[12:17]  BlueWall Slade: We can't anticipate what they are going to do.
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: I am all for having more dialog with them, I talk with Tank_Master from time to time
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: he is the only FS dev I know really
[12:17]  BlueWall Slade: If they brand a viewr with OpenSim, then it should by all means work in OpenSim
[12:17]  Nebadon Izumi: but I havent seen him around much at all lately
[12:17]  PcTek CyberStar: they're not legally obligated, and the additional work of anticipating such issues, let alone responding to them, would require a full time salaried individual --> that goodwill will not pay for.
[12:17]  OtakuMegane Desu: Even if nobody used FS on Opensim, from the sound of it this particular case has a malicious potential too if it's crashing regions.
[12:18]  BlueWall Slade: I use it all the time
[12:18]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, exactly
[12:18]  BlueWall Slade: but, it sux atm
[12:18]  BlueWall Slade: can't upload files,m etc.
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant rely on viewer fixes for that honestly
[12:18]  BlueWall Slade: no export
[12:18]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and the inventory fetch is NOT a FS bug
[12:18]  BlueWall Slade: it is all broken.
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: the simulator needs to be able to deal with anything the viewer throws at it
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: because even if firestorm fixes it
[12:18]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt mean people will update
[12:18]  OtakuMegane Desu: True
[12:18]  BlueWall Slade: Aine - if it changes between release then it is
[12:18]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's only the latest change that makes it slower to report that fetch has finished
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: and if someone wants to be destructive
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: they will just use the old version
[12:19]  PcTek CyberStar: i use henry beauchamps cool vl viewer, b/c it's more stable and lighter for me than even kokua. i like kokua, but it crashes on me a lot. firestorm and singularity, for me, on the same system, are as lethargic as molasses running an up hill race.
[12:19]  BlueWall Slade: If they introduce changes that affect OpenSim then it's a bug that can only be addressed by them
[12:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no...fetch hanging and killing sim happens with FS, Singularity, Kokua, etc and with versions of it ghoing back 1+ year
[12:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so it's NOT a FS-exlusive bug
[12:19]  BlueWall Slade: ether fixing it, or giving us a clue about what to expect.
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we need to make sure the simulator can handle whatever gets thrown at it
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: regardless of the viewer
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: never trust a viewer
[12:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ever
[12:19]  BlueWall Slade: hmmm
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: that is our philosophy and should be
[12:20]  BlueWall Slade: you said that the behavior changed with the last release
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: however that siad the viewer should also never trust the simulator
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:20]  BlueWall Slade: ?
[12:20]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if I didn't have to be 100% sure that fetch was finished I wouldn't care about the latest FS bug in being slow in telling me that fetch is finished
[12:20]  Nebadon Izumi: both sides should be optimal if possible in an ideal world
[12:20]  OtakuMegane Desu: Well the viewer is a user thing so it gets less trust. :P
[12:21]  PcTek CyberStar: trust is only the ability to handle the damages of a broken confidentiality in a relationship.
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: well what I mean is they should both be able to carry on no matter what happens, though thats not always possible
[12:21]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yuckm coolVL
[12:21]  BlueWall Slade: Another thing, do a regression test on OpenSim by jumping back a month or so
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: the viewer should not be able to cripple the simulator
[12:21]  BlueWall Slade: See if the issue has changed.
[12:21]  BlueWall Slade: Because code sometimes changes here too.
[12:21]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: a single, latent viewer connection can cripple a simulator too
[12:21]  BlueWall Slade: Fixes get overwritten, etc.
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: going back a year sometimes isnt so easy though
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: migrations and such
[12:22]  BlueWall Slade: a month
[12:22]  BlueWall Slade: a few release
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: Aine said a 1+ year
[12:22]  BlueWall Slade: ohh
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: unless i misread
[12:22]  PcTek CyberStar: perhaps stay behind the bleeding edge by 6 months... after all, there is a reason those people are bleeding.
[12:22]  BlueWall Slade: I just said to go back a month or soe to see if the issue is there.
[12:23]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hva ethere been any major migrations or such in the last year or so?
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: "[12:19] Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: no...fetch hanging and killing sim happens with FS, Singularity, Kokua, etc and with versions of it ghoing back 1+ year"
[12:23]  BlueWall Slade: because when there is a change that causes a bug, then it has to be located with as much good information as possible.
[12:23]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: well over a year
[12:24]  BlueWall Slade: well, forget that
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: yea unfortunately thats not so easy
[12:24]  BlueWall Slade: I am pretty sure Diva made a fix
[12:24]  BlueWall Slade: you said that the latest Firestorm did it ...
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: what we need is a way to recreate it
[12:24]  OtakuMegane Desu: ^
[12:24]  BlueWall Slade: So, keep it in that timeframe
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: it sounds like we have that
[12:24]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I filed the report in Mantis in March 2014 but I'd been talking about it in dev meetings for a few months before that
[12:24]  OtakuMegane Desu: Ok, what exactly is needed to recreate it?
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: Im pretty sure I could recreate it, I think i did accidetly a few days ago
[12:24]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so would be sometime around Dec 2013
[12:25]  BlueWall Slade: That is not what we are talking about here ...
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: log in with large inventory and cache cleared
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: teleport before inventory finishes
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: and boom
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: goes the dynamite
[12:25]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: which, as you'll recall, is when Melanie dropped all those code changes
[12:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: 24k big enough inv?
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: my test avatar i experienced it with has 27k
[12:25]  BlueWall Slade: So, what does this have to do with the latest Firestorm release?
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: HG teleport?
[12:25]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nothing
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Aine does local tp do it too?
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: for me it was a HG
[12:26]  BlueWall Slade: that is what the issue was when it was brought up.
[12:26]  BlueWall Slade: The latest Firestorm release does xxxxx.
[12:26]  PcTek CyberStar: since my current inventory holdings are under 1500 perhaps i should try it to objectively disassociate a minimalist viewpoint and determine if occurrs regardless of your hoarding size.
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: Firestorm has a cherry on top
[12:26]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the only thing about the new FS release that is relevant is that with the current Opensim fetch bug I can't leave a grid-hosted region until fetch is finished
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: inventory fetch hangs
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: so you have to wait very long before you can teleprot
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: longer than otehr veiwers
[12:26]  BlueWall Slade: ok, that is new?
[12:26]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that is the new part
[12:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: When doing the tp, is it origin or target region that crashes?
[12:26]  BlueWall Slade: then it needs to be located
[12:27]  BlueWall Slade: is it opensim or is it firestorm?
[12:27]  BlueWall Slade: opensim go back a few days/weeks
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that I suspect needs to start with the Firestorm devs
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: since old version isnt doing it
[12:27]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the new thing with FS -- which is a FS bug or a new LL-imposed bug -- is that it's taking longer to report that the fetch has finished
[12:27]  BlueWall Slade: is it there, then it's firestorrm
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: obviously something changed not on our end
[12:27]  PcTek CyberStar: i think this should have a high priority due to the possibility of creating massive havoc.
[12:27]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the actual fetch itself in a grid-hosted region is happening extremely quickly
[12:27]  BlueWall Slade: i fit's firestorm file a report with them, and possibly one wiht OpenSim linking the two.
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: PcTek, even if we fix it
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: people are slow on the uptake
[12:27]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but I have to be *sure* that fetch finishes so I don't kill my own (or someone else's) sim
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: but ya would be good to see what is going on there
[12:28]  BlueWall Slade: it must be located
[12:28]  BlueWall Slade: time is very scarce ....
[12:28]  BlueWall Slade: we cant chase unknow ghoses.
[12:28]  PcTek CyberStar: what about enforcing everyone running windows 98 to upgrade to at least xp.
[12:28]  BlueWall Slade: we can't fix viewer issues or issues that pop up because of unknown changes.
[12:29]  BlueWall Slade: lol, No Windows here at all
[12:29]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: weel you and I spent an afternoon in OSG testing it on your region and recording zillions of stats on it, Bluewall
[12:29]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so....
[12:29]  Nebadon Izumi: forcing people to upgrade causes more havok than the problem itself
[12:29]  BlueWall Slade: Aine, please ...
[12:29]  PcTek CyberStar: i mean by this, what about dropping sims that are running versions so old, that fossilized remains of flat characters can be viewed in the terrain.
[12:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and eat
[12:29]  BlueWall Slade: Diva said a student found the issue
[12:29]  BlueWall Slade: So, we need to see if that was applied
[12:29]  BlueWall Slade: Thanks Justine
[12:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i need a break too
[12:30]  BlueWall Slade: Justin *
[12:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye justin
[12:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: don't know how much I will be avalable again this week. Hopefully a bit more but not guaranteed
[12:30]  BlueWall Slade: have a good week ahead.
[12:30]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: have a good week, Justin
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: I can tell you that a lot of this stuff is going to be addressed soon hopefully
[12:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye, folks
[12:30]  PcTek CyberStar: bye justin.
[12:30]  Kayaker Magic: bye
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: its not going to happen fast though
[12:30]  BlueWall Slade: She said that 2 threads were competing with the inventory fetch and were killing it off.
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: but this stats change that Moses has given us
[12:30]  PcTek CyberStar: did you get it? no did you get it? no did you get it? no did you get it?
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: is phase 1 of like 100 phases of improving opensimulator performance
[12:31]  BlueWall Slade: hopefully it will
[12:31]  BlueWall Slade: :)
[12:31]  Justin Clark-Casey is Offline
[12:31]  OtakuMegane Desu: Thread baaattle!! FIGHT!
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: but its time consuming work and will probably move at a snails pace
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: if we go to fast the result will be bad
[12:31]  BlueWall Slade: Nebadon - do you remember if Diva did a fix for the inventory?
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: fly to fast and your radar is useless
[12:32]  PcTek CyberStar: perhaps a production grid, and a test grid are not bad ideas after all.
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think so
[12:32]  BlueWall Slade: ohhh
[12:32]  BlueWall Slade: Maybe we need to ask her about it
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: they were just doing analysis for a thesis or something
[12:32]  BlueWall Slade: because she did say that they found an issues
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think any patches cam out of that work
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya the only patch i recall
[12:32]  PcTek CyberStar: discovery only then.
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: was one that went to LL Jira
[12:32]  BlueWall Slade: ok, if she can hit us with a clue stick
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and I believe got pushed into their viewer
[12:33]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm sorry to be a bitch about it but this stuff affects the average user and average setup quite a lot so, while you folks aren't encountering it a lot, many of the non-pro users are....and most of them don't even know what's happening so they just think that the region is badly hosted or whatever
[12:33]  BlueWall Slade: no this is in OpenSim
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: it was related to avatar updates
[12:33]  Cuteulala Artis: see yall soon not feeling well so i go rest at my home sim and lock pc
[12:33]  BlueWall Slade: it's ok Aine
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it effected OpenSim
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: but the bug was deep in the LL code
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: it even effected SL
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: basically something about an avatar standing still
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: generating 1000s of updates per minute
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: when it was idle even
[12:33]  BlueWall Slade: we need this to work well, but we have to expect that the viewr team will have answers if a new update makes issues.
[12:34]  Jeeper Shim is Online
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: these issues are not easily solved
[12:34]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: sure
[12:34]  BlueWall Slade: yes, that was a little different.
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: not something we can resolve in an afternoon likely
[12:34]  BlueWall Slade: we need to ask her about the inventory thing.
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: unless somsone spots and oh shit bug
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: which is possble but we gotta find it first
[12:34]  PcTek CyberStar: an alternative technique toward mitigating undesirable effects of rapid adoption and transition toward so called improvements should be implemented grids wide, either have a production/test environment or delay being on the frontlines.
[12:35]  BlueWall Slade: if that student gave her enough info, maybe it will be a pretty quick fix.
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: PcTek thats easy to say
[12:35]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but the actual issue is one that pre-dates the viewer change.....the viewer change just makes it that much more annoying to wait for inventory fetch to complete on a region that's capable of doing the fetch
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: very difficult to acheive
[12:35]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: requires more money for hardware, more people, more time
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: none of which exists
[12:35]  BlueWall Slade: PcTek - we are all on the bleeding edge here.
[12:35]  PcTek CyberStar: and that's the reason we are bleeding.
[12:35]  PcTek CyberStar: XD
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: is SL any better?
[12:35]  BlueWall Slade: this is where the blade hits the bone :)
[12:35]  Jeeper Shim is Offline
[12:36]  PcTek CyberStar: oww my pancreas!
[12:36]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: fortunately it looks like MOSES will be doing some triage
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: is my response
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:36]  BlueWall Slade: SL sucked bad last time I was there,lol
[12:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: SL is a mess. Always is. :P
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: yes but they do everything PcTek says
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: does it help?
[12:36]  BlueWall Slade: but, we don't need to try to be as good as SL
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: the answer is no
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: it only makes for more problems
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: becasue the problem is
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: test grids
[12:36]  BlueWall Slade: we need to be as good as we can be
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: dont see the level of use s a production grid
[12:36]  Nebadon Izumi: so everything looks fine and dandy in thest mode
[12:37]  PcTek CyberStar: so i provided more than one option.
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: you push it to production and l the bolts fly off
[12:37]  PcTek CyberStar: my other idea, was delay taking up the latest code LL spits out.
[12:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: OSGrid is a sort of mix of production, test and dev. There's stuff from all types strewn about. :)
[12:37]  PcTek CyberStar: let LL work out the bugs.
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: PcTek Opensimulator doesnt use code LL spits out
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: that is viewer side
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: we have no control over that
[12:37]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and viewers *have* to update to the LL code branch
[12:38]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so if they "break" something they might not be able to unbreak it
[12:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: LL can't figure out how to not water down physics without breaking half their features. I'm not inclined to trust them to fix a lot of issues.
[12:38]  PcTek CyberStar: so you are saying it's a viewer issue, and not a server issue?
[12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway we need patience
[12:38]  BlueWall Slade: They may update to SL code, but if they claim that they are OpenSim compatible, then they should aspire to give as good a user experience in OpenSim
[12:39]  PcTek CyberStar: maybe i misunderstood that.
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: these things will get fixed
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: unfortunatley never as fast as we want them too
[12:39]  BlueWall Slade: after all - we are all they will have when SL hits 2.0
[12:39]  PcTek CyberStar: mmm.
[12:39]  PcTek CyberStar: i see your point Nebadon
[12:39]  OtakuMegane Desu: And nobody knows exactly what 2.0 is going to be. Or if it will get anywhere once it's released
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: we can only move so fast with the team of volunteers we have
[12:39]  BlueWall Slade: to me it looked like a spiffy version of IMVU
[12:39]  Talun -: this High Fidelity?
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant tell anyone they have to do anything
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: becasue thats not how it works
[12:40]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: if put between a rock and a hard place, every single TPV is going to drop "opensim compatible" from their propeganda
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no director of operations telling people what to do
[12:40]  BlueWall Slade: We all have private projects and we bring parts of that back to core to form as mostly complete kit
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: if that happens we are stuck with the last version that works
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: and we never have to worry about thnigs changing anymore :)
[12:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hehe
[12:41]  PcTek CyberStar: :)
[12:41]  PcTek CyberStar hugs Nebadon
[12:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I *almost* wish that would happen
[12:41]  BlueWall Slade: haha
[12:41]  OtakuMegane Desu: Another reason to hope a real Opensim viewer can be worked out eventually.
[12:41]  BlueWall Slade: I wish that some group would want to amke a 100% OpenSim viewer and forget about SL
[12:41]  PcTek CyberStar: hmmm
[12:41]  BlueWall Slade: if that happened, then we could work with them.
[12:41]  Nebadon Izumi: we have started that
[12:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: one will be eventually....at some point in the future SL will pull the plug on SL1.0
[12:41]  Nebadon Izumi: but there is not much interest so far
[12:41]  Nebadon Izumi: with OnLook
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: viewer devs are very few
[12:42]  BlueWall Slade: I am interested in it, but I'm no viewer dev.
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: id be surprised if there was a dozen total left
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: between all TPVs
[12:42]  BlueWall Slade: I'm an everything else dev thoughj, lol
[12:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Coding ability is a limited resource and those willing to deal with something like a viewer even more so.
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the TPV devs
[12:42]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: just keeping up with LL's changes probably keeps them all overworked already
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: dont fix many bugs other than ones they create
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: the core viewer bugs mostly get left to LL
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: the deep engine stuff
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: the TPVs are GUI and Skin changes for the most part
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: occasionally cool stuff comes
[12:43]  PcTek CyberStar: i agree
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: but a lot of the time they are just mainting visual changes
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: interface stuff
[12:43]  BlueWall Slade: They match LL, then we are left with bug reports and guessing about what happened.
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: so in the long run
[12:44]  BlueWall Slade: no possible way to fix it
[12:44]  PcTek CyberStar: we need a spy on the inside.
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the TPV devs are not much help with starting a new viewer from scratch
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: the opensimulator devs have far more experience with that than any of the TPV devs
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: like Dahlia
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: Lkalif does, but hes kind of out of the game for now
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: Diva has some experience with viewer now
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: Dahlia is probably the only one besides lkalif who has written severel opensimulator viewers
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: that are not based on any LL code
[12:45]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately most of them are very far from what anyone would want to use
[12:45]  JayMaze Yao is Online
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: all mostly conceptual test apps
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: to see what it takes
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: and if its even possible
[12:46]  BlueWall Slade: Blue sky development
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: starting a new viewer from scratch is like years of work
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: even HighFidelity has years to go
[12:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what the heck.....I just got a script error message pop up
[12:46]  JayMaze Yao is Offline
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: before they have anything worthy of use
[12:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: System.Reflection.TargetInvocationException: Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation. ---> OpenSim.Region.ScriptEngine.Shared.ScriptException: OSSL Runtime Error: osSetSpeed permission denied. Script creator is not in the list of users allowed to execute this function and prim owner also has no permission....
[12:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: how can that even happen here?
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: wierd
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe its from another sim?
[12:47]  OtakuMegane Desu: Also have to be able to deal with whatever language a viewer is written in. Stuff like C++ is not a mild learning curve.
[12:47]  YouCa.nDolT @grid.atekgrid.com:8002: hi here
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i didntsee any script errors pop up
[12:47]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nnopte...from Plaza
[12:47]  lavender -pretty: i got that script error too aine..
[12:47]  lavender -pretty: hello!
[12:47]  lavender -pretty: lol
[12:47]  BlueWall Slade: you have freebies here Aine?
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: more firestorm buggage?
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i didnt see any messages
[12:47]  BlueWall Slade: me either
[12:47]  lavender -pretty: wellwe are testing out their new viewer
[12:47]  OtakuMegane Desu: No error here either.
[12:48]  Nebadon Izumi: ya wierd
[12:48]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe a hud someone is wearing
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