Chat log from the meeting on 2015-03-31

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[11:03]  valerie llauke: sounds cool
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: yea its very cool
[11:04]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:04]  Connected
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i made a page for OSgrid Plazas
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: only 2 listed so far
[11:04]  valerie llauke: theres Justin
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: be sure to like them
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:04]  valerie llauke: hi justin :)
[11:04]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi justin :)
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimworld.com/hop/75040-Wright-Plaza
[11:04]  amsterdam Bingyi: hi justin
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: http://opensimworld.com/hop/75039-Lbsa-Plaza
[11:05]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty cool system, be sure to check it out
[11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: hi justin
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: Hello Dahlia and Justin :)
[11:05]  valerie llauke: hi dahlia
[11:05]  amsterdam Bingyi: hi dahlia
[11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: hi dahlia
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: you can see the Beacon Kiosk here
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its down stairs near the landing zone
[11:06]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi dahlia
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: right outside the front door of this building
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: @Justin: did Seth send you a nice big lump of data we captured at a party a few weeks ago where we had a great example of the single-viewer latency issue both before and after using your resend tweak?
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: sorry, I have been v busy on something else last 2 weeks and probably for the next 2
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: have not had a chance to look at anything
[11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...as long as you got it :)
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't obviously see anything from seth in my e-mail
[11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kk...I'lll mention it to him and ask him to resend it then
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:08]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: who im,plemented the #Const option in the ini files. its not complete
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: BlueWall
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: what is not complete about it?
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: and is there a mantis on that?
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: if so pass it along to BlueWall for sure
[11:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I saw the Mantis on it
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: i cannot configure the url for 8002 and 8003 seperate. at the end i wiped all const stuff to get it working right
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: i tried to explain it in mantis yes
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:09]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: because 8003 dont need to be public available , also that port is closed to internet
[11:10]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: i thought it had support for public and private ports
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: I find it confusing that [Const] is in OpenSim,ini since it doesn't aply to stnadlones except in special cases
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I suspect it had to be there because of the way config files are loaded :(
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: ports yes. but aine what if 8003 use public url and the port is closed. it failes
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: so 8003 use local ip here and no port forarding
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: but in the current $const setup it's not possible to set that
[11:12]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: in case you like to decrypt my mantis :) http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=7518
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: k thanks
[11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: anyway, thing started to work right when i removed it complete and used the old school methode :O
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: well you have to realize too the example inis are just that examples
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: sometimes you have to customize them to do what you want
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: it will always remain that way
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: it is very flexible though
[11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: i know. but at least make 8002 and 8003 with seperate url
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ok be sure to mention this to BlueWall
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: shame bluewall is offline now
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: becuase one uses a LAN ip and the other WAN IP?
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: yes one use lan, other use domain name
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: right, that makes sense - you really don't want those to be both the same address in many cases
[11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: It does now justin :O
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: from datacenter perspective it's correct. but for other setups not
[11:16]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.2.0 Dev        b51e46c: 2015-03-22 09:55:02 -0700 (Unix/Mono)
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I only remembered about the const changes right when I was doing the release and so forgot that I meant to take a look at that stuff
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I simply couldn't delay the release any further
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: it might be good to start some new wiki pages
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: with alternate style configurations
[11:16]  Dahlia Trimble: speaking of config, I need a way to update a custom maptile without having to restart the sim, preferably from a client
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can add a text file to the git repo pointing to these custom configuration pages
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: Dahlia, there's no console command to update maptile ?
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:17]  Dahlia Trimble: I guess I could add some secret password protected chat command or something
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: there is a console regenerate map command
[11:17]  Dahlia Trimble: justin, Im generating maptiles from an external program
[11:18]  Dahlia Trimble: it's a bot, and I'd like it to be able to update them
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: is that something you might eventually make widely available Dahlia if it works out?
[11:18]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so you need more of a "load map" console command
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: update as in sned the new tiles to the server?
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: service
[11:19]  Dahlia Trimble: Nebadon, probably
[11:19]  Jak Daniels: are you loading them with MaptileStaticFile= in region.ini?
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: nice, I look forward to that
[11:19]  Dahlia Trimble: Justin, yes
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we really neep a maptiler that can handle mesh
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: and look good
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: and not make the region take 25 minutes to start up with a clear cache
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: and dont eat your server nebadon :P
[11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: lol no it eats another server :P
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: it might be easier to hit the service directly from your program.
[11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: is it stored in a service?
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: the aproach you are taking dahlia is how LL does their maptiles
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: for v2/v3, yes
[11:20]  Dahlia Trimble: well I could add a update hook
[11:21]  Dahlia Trimble: I'd rather the bot not be privy to grid services
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: MapImageService
[11:21]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: Well, i need to test it, singularity showed HG maptiles. not sure about FS. kokua is wonkey with var regions and did nots howed maps right
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: have it pipe through the region
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe a region module?
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: that listens?
[11:22]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: dahlia, u could have an osl method to pass the uuid of the uploaded maptile texture?
[11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: Alicia that's one way but would require a script
[11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: maybe a new cap or something
[11:22]  Jak Daniels: did you try using MaptileStaticFile= in combo with the Map timer to keep reloading the map image file?
[11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: how about a console command "load maptile [path]
[11:23]  Dahlia Trimble: maybe
[11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then put that on a timer to run every so often
[11:23]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then have your bot store the tiles wherever
[11:24]  Dahlia Trimble: but I'd think some means for a client to update the maptile might be nice for regular viewers as well
[11:24]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: though I guess ideally you'd want to see if it had changed
[11:24]  Jak Daniels: viewers seem to cache maptiles, I have to relog after changing my regions maptile
[11:24]  Jak Daniels: to see the new one
[11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: oh no I can see new ones immediately, just reload map
[11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: in replex
[11:25]  Jak Daniels: hmmm that didn't work fo me last I tried it
[11:25]  Jak Daniels: I'll try replex
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: I just saw what you said on irc Jak about the more than 8 material mesh
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: good we wont have to make changes to accommodate that
[11:27]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: and singularity, because thats more uptodate
[11:27]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what about more than 8 mats?
[11:28]  Dahlia Trimble: mesh is limited to 8 slots
[11:28]  Jak Daniels: yes, I read through the SL viewer build notes...
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: yes but LL has a new veiwer coming
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: that allows for more than 8
[11:28]  Dahlia Trimble: ah
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: but it appears that it just splits them up on upload
[11:28]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh cool
[11:28]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: I told soemone before, LL is splitting the mesh in objects if it have more the 8 textures. thats what i have read
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: into multiple 8 material objects
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: so no server side changes required it seem
[11:28]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: oh...less cool
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: instead of just ignoring them now it splits it
[11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: hmm, can the OS mesh uploader in the viewer handle it ?
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_Project_Importer/3.7.25.298441
[11:29]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: they'll probbaly bugger up the way they split it and/or the maps andor the nbormals
[11:29]  Jak Daniels: heh... I bet they all get split up randomly into different linksets
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: yea its hard to say
[11:29]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah, that's what I'm thinking
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its better than totally ignoring them
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: if it just splits it on upload, probably no changes needed to view it
[11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: I think it's pretty sure the split it in a way it bennefits LL
[11:29]  Jak Daniels: true
[11:29]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: you look at the say it currently takes a single mat that has too many faces and splits it up...it's brutal
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: as of right now it totally clobbers models with more than 8 matrials per object
[11:30]  Dahlia Trimble: why need more than 8?
[11:30]  Dahlia Trimble: one should be enough
[11:30]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: one mesh with 30k faces and a single mat starts to look really weird when a texture only gets applied to one face by mistake/viewer glitch
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: not always dahlia,m and building get more easy that way for people. and i guess it's a change for the future
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: 30k faces?
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: you mean triangles?
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: no, the more then 8 texture support
[11:31]  Shez Oyen: Hiya Robert
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: hi robert
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: hi Robert
[11:32]  amsterdam Bingyi: hello robert
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: yes there are hard limtis to how many tringles any single material can be applied to
[11:32]  Robert Adams: hi all... late as usual :)
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its far less than 20k
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: sorry 30k
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: i think its like 23k
[11:32]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes....I am stuck in "real" mode so I think of a face as being a face, not a collection of faces arbitrarily grouped into something that's incorrectly called a "Face"
[11:32]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: hi robert :)
[11:33]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: i dont know triangles. thats the same as face
[11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: you can do a lot with UV mapping :P
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: faces would be a bad description of triangles
[11:33]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what SL calls a "face" is what any 3D modeling program would call a "material" or a "surface"
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:34]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: see surFACE :P
[11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: what 99.999999% of 3D software calls a face is a single area enclosed by 3 or more edges
[11:34]  Robert Adams: there is a lot of confusion over the term 'face'... prims have faces, meshes have faces.... but they are different
[11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: often in 3d code a triangle is called a face
[11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: take a look at the obj spec
[11:34]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it is
[11:35]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: for now, it's still a headace with mesh
[11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: so there is ambiguity with the term "face"
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a lot of ambiguity between 3d formats
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:35]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: Maya face = Blender face = 3DMAX face = eveyr other 3D modeling program on the planet face != SL face
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: standards!!!
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: so many of them
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:36]  Allen Kerensky: all those other tools weren't organized around a prim-based "abstration" for a mesh
[11:36]  Allen Kerensky: rez a 6 face prim cube and look in wireframe mode to see the difference between prim faces and mesh polys
[11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: well the SL/OpenSim scenegraph design is a disaster from teh start anyway
[11:37]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: why LL didn't just call it a "surface" from the start is a mystery...maybe they only expected people to build with cubes
[11:37]  Allen Kerensky: it was an experiment in 3D streaming - it works at least, if not "well enough" for everyone
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: yea Ive not seen much i would consider btter
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: better*
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: applied to any practical real world application anyway
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: lots of theories floating around though
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: well maybe I should say the OpenSim scenegraph design is a disaster, I really don't know how it's implemented in SL servers
[11:38]  valerie llauke: ok so.. I came today to ask if anyone else is having terrible problems with the freinds list .... people not showing online that are standing in front of you .. lists that are blank ..... not being able to talk to some people in im .. .. able to talk to others in same area??
[11:39]  amsterdam Bingyi: yes, I do, but depending on where I am
[11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: mine seems to be working
[11:39]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: not me, i have been seeing alot of HG users with unknown name in the viewer, even tho the console shows the name ok
[11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: try clearing cache
[11:39]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it happens all the time
[11:40]  amsterdam Bingyi: in my own VAR, friendslist aint showing online for at least a half hour, or not at all
[11:40]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's paritcularly fun when someone can IM you but your attempts to reply bounce back
[11:41]  amsterdam Bingyi: I have ebeenb standing in my sim with a friend, chatting, but friend was not online in my list
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: friends list can fail for a variety of not easily resolvable reasons
[11:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: for same-grid I don't have that issue if both people are in-grid, but as soon as HG is involved it's a crap-shoot
[11:41]  valerie llauke: i have has to hto answer people lolg
[11:41]  valerie llauke: HG*
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: it's bad when someone sends you an offline IM and every time you tp to a different region you receive it again
[11:41]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I reported a bunch of those issues in April 2013....still open
[11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: HG friedns is never nbeen perfect. would be nice if that get fixt
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: i have not seen that before Dahlia
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: interesting
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: ya HG friends is pretty flaky
[11:41]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: can HG friedns etc. be send by TCP if that dont happen already ?
[11:42]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:42]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the other one is declining a friendship when HGed...that's a complete nightmare
[11:42]  valerie llauke: i can be standing with some one and they dont show online .. despite relogging and such
[11:42]  Dahlia Trimble: Richard, I think it's all REST
[11:42]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or crashing before you get a chance to accept it
[11:42]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: refresh me with REST, udp or tcp ?
[11:42]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: then for all eternity you get spammed by that friend request with no way to fix it
[11:42]  Dahlia Trimble: REST uses HTTP
[11:43]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: ok. hmm.
[11:43]  valerie llauke: lately my whole list changes when i change grids.. hging around
[11:43]  Dahlia Trimble: so TCP
[11:44]  valerie llauke: half the people show online and are not .. half say they arent and are ...
[11:44]  Robert Adams: the HG friends stuff is REST/HTTP/TCP... it goes from the viewer to the other grids... slow net connections and slow servers can slow up the process and there is 'fancy' caching that doesn't always get updated
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: This is the reality of p2p
[11:45]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: a bunch of stuff that worked under 0.7.6 got subsequently broken with 0.8 and I think there was an assumption at the time that Diva would fix them when she finished writing whatever book she was working on at the time....and if never got around to happening so they've kind of accumulated
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: for anything that requires a degree of synchronicity
[11:45]  valerie llauke: well ill say .... since i am on osg lately and before .... the problem for me seems way worse than it ever was ..
[11:45]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: when i log out here, i can be sure that friends on my home grid will see me still online, always happens
[11:46]  Dahlia Trimble: Its probably more the reality of uncontrolled environments and unclear configuration instructions
[11:46]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: aine that i see happen to. but also on same grid
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: may be a good idea to always jump home for now
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: before logging out
[11:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: that doesn't always help
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ctrl+shift+h
[11:47]  Hiro Protagonist: unfortunately not always possible as HG jaunts can be a bit crash-prone
[11:47]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and that's assuming you can even jump home which sometimes isn't the case...you get an "unable to verify identity" message and have to log
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i don't do a whole lot of hypergridding
[11:47]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: yes, i got that problem today from someone, could not get home
[11:47]  valerie llauke: if i log in and half my friends that are online in world in osg..arent showing up online in osg then ??
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: when i do its between my own grids
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and i rarely experience these troubles
[11:48]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: if they logout and backin after, they do see im offline then, it would be worse if i was stuck with online true till i logged back in
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: but for soem reason that private sandbox region have since yesterday more problems from soem places
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i generally only HG between, OSgrid, Avacon Grid, OSCC and Encitra grids
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: but disable private dont make any diufference , just trfied it
[11:48]  valerie llauke: im not even talking babout cross gris stuff ..
[11:48]  Allen Kerensky: well the long term solution is to get more folks proficient with C#, get more eyes in the relevant parts of the code, more sanity checking, and more unit tests
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: alot of the time when i go to other grids i do indeed have trouble even getting to them at all
[11:48]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: maby problem because its from normal to var ?
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: but i admit, I dont do that very often
[11:49]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: most HG places i hav etried worked fine
[11:49]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's such an insanely complex system that it doesn't surprise me that there are issues
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: too complex
[11:49]  Allen Kerensky: its an *evolving* complex system
[11:49]  valerie llauke: i am only speaking to problems i have had with freinds even just in osg .. just fyi .... the cross grid effects are mind numbing lol
[11:49]  Allen Kerensky: where were vars just a year ago
[11:49]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I assume it's party to be compatible with the LL viewer and party to avoid unnecessary load on grid servers
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: pushing the grid architecture beyond it's original purpose... things break
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: yes, the Friends online/offline thing has never really been 100% reliable
[11:50]  Allen Kerensky: and yes the viewer is the constant "must work with" requirement
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: not by my memory anyway
[11:50]  Hiro Protagonist: I have to say its really never been 100% on the LL grid either
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: infact I dont ever really recall a time i would say it was even slightly reliable
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:50]  Lani Global: i've had success using HG to teleport recently to various grids running various versions of opensim simulator code and grid code. i'm constantly amazed that it works over all those versions, at least for teleporting and exchanging objects.
[11:50]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: not 100%, but certainly was previously more reliable
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: want to see problems, try group chat in SL
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: yea that may be so Aine, i can't argue that
[11:50]  valerie llauke: hg is awesome !!
[11:51]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: i suspect with TP problems that region is running weird version of opensim
[11:51]  valerie llauke: just dont depend on finding your friends LOL
[11:51]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: although maybe that's as much a function of there being a lot more HG traffic so we just see higher volume
[11:51]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: the problems might have been there before but not as many users
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: well I think there is a bug in Mono too
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: about caching DNS
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: that is probably cause shit ton of problems
[11:51]  valerie llauke: and grids .. too now we have so many too
[11:51]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: SL is 99.998% reliable with TP
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: for people with DHCP
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: basically mono holds on and never updates
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: SL hosts all their own services in a very controlled environment
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: until the process is restarted
[11:52]  Lani Global: in my own region, i've noticed HG traffic increased from 17% of traffic last year to 25% of traffic in the past month.
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: and simulators
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: basically restarting the region
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: usually DNS caching is a operating system function
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: not sure why mono would do it
[11:52]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: aha nebadon, maby thats the bug i hit on some region from someone. the run wiondows and i changed domain
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: yea but apparantly there is something that was never implemented in mono
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: that .net relies on
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: 1 sec
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: mono shouldnt do it at all
[11:53]  Hiro Protagonist: it does not surprise me at all that m$ would implement a service that was already running on the host
[11:53]  Allen Kerensky: well Dahlia it is a VM host in the middle between the app and the OS - so there's always going to be some overlap
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/21073103/resetting-dns-cache-in-c-sharp-mono
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: its pretty much been verified though
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: that when peoples IP address changes
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: they cant get back to regions they already visited
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: because mono only wants to see their old address
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: restarting the region fixes it
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: kind of sucks
[11:54]  valerie llauke: pokes hiro hiyas
[11:54]  Allen Kerensky: weekly reboot time
[11:54]  Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Val :)
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: not 100% sure on what versions of mono are effected, if not all
[11:54]  Allen Kerensky: a long with weekly backup - log rotation, whatever
[11:54]  Dahlia Trimble: it's probably opensim erronously trying to cache it, not mono
[11:54]  Allen Kerensky: mono version differences are a big area too - there's tons of versions out there
[11:55]  Allen Kerensky: OpenSim runs pretty well for as wide a spread of things as it has to deal with
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: well it appears to be a problem in Mono as well
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: there are a lot of complaints in the Unity community about it
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt seem limited to just opensimulator
[11:55]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: could be multiple contributing factors....as always
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: .net has a function to deal with it
[11:55]  Dahlia Trimble: gethostbyname should *not* cache, VM or not.
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: that has never been implemented or something
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I cant say for sure
[11:56]  Allen Kerensky: some OSes implement nscd Dahlia
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: ive never experienced the problem
[11:56]  Allen Kerensky: and gethostbyname may be hitting that
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: but several others have shown me alll the stuff they found
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: my IP address almost never changes
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: unless i change my router
[11:56]  Jak Daniels: windows runs a dns cache too
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: or i have to have comcast do something drastic to my service
[11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: both windows and linux have DNS caches
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: opensim does do a one time conversion of fqdn to ip for regions if you use an fqdn
[11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: and you can flush the cache with a command
[11:57]  Robert Adams: there is a lot of odd caching in OS.... a developer adds a cache for their new feature not realizing there is a cache somewhere else
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: ya ipconfig /dnsflush
[11:57]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: so.. cache get chached ?
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: or something
[11:57]  Robert Adams: and people tend to add things to caches and not handle eviction policies
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, ithere are far too many different caches
[11:58]  Allen Kerensky: yeah Dahlia I just did a quick check - nscd specifically does cache for gethostbyname
[11:58]  Lani Global: i've been baffled recently trying to fix a vehicle problem... that changed from OpenSim 0.8.0 to 0.8.1 using ODE for my Physical Flight Engine. The banking became non-functional. It is a popular script, so I'm trying to come up with a bug fix or workaround for it. http://opensimulator.org/wiki/User:LaniGlobal#Lani_Physical_Vehicle_Flight_Engine_v3_for_ODE
[11:58]  Robert Adams: the friends list is something with a lot of caching as it didn't want to keep polling and pounding on simulators
[11:58]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: Try bullet lani ?
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: there were very few ode changes between 0.8 and 0.8.1
[11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: probably the best bugfix/workaround for that is to recode it under bulletsim
[11:59]  Lani Global: RR, I have a working bullet script.
[11:59]  Lani Global: but this is an ODE script
[11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: I've just stopped running ode
[11:59]  Robert Adams: if is changed for ODE, that means the change is probably in the simulator
[11:59]  Hiro Protagonist: it's kind of, irrelevant
[11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: why still use ODED when bullet works betetr ?
[11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: allen nscd would be the operating system level cache
[11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: not mono
[11:59]  Robert Adams: I don't think ODE itself has had work on it in many months
[12:00]  Lani Global: everything worked fine with it up until 0.8.1
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: I think its been more than months
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: I did a minor ODE tweak for llLookAt() recently
[12:00]  Lani Global: there are hundreds of flying vehicles out there using it
[12:00]  Jak Daniels: Lani: there was a bug fixed to do with flying and banking up/down recently... might it be related
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: Lani Global do you know how to bisect?
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: would be super helpful if you could bisect to find the issue
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: get a knife :)
[12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: all my flying vehicles work under bullet, I've never been able to get one to work under bullet at all
[12:01]  Lani Global: yes, i've been trying that
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: great
[12:01]  Robert Adams: there were tweeks for llLookAt and llMoveTo that could have changed something
[12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: not since my helicopter broke years ago
[12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: sorry
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: I am not sure we can figiure it out without bisecting the breakage
[12:01]  Hiro Protagonist: never been able to get one to work under ode
[12:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: Hiro, you talk against your own text line
[12:01]  Lani Global: my objective is to further develop the script so that it works on either bullet or ODE, with an automatic switch that senses.
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: I didnt change llMoveToTarget
[12:01]  Lani Global: but i have to fix the ode part first.
[12:02]  Jak Daniels: have you tried it on git master or just 0.8.1 release?
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: pinpointing the exact revision it stops working will be very helpful
[12:02]  Lani Global: yes
[12:02]  Hiro Protagonist: that's actually fairly noble, but unless someone picks ode back up it will likely go away
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: http://webchick.net/node/99
[12:02]  Hiro Protagonist: maybe not real soon but eventually
[12:02]  vegaslon plutonian: as I told you lani that banking is using lllookatrot to do the banking, that has now turned into a physics function and so now it is being subjected to the vehicle physics behavior which is working activly to kill all motion that is not from the vehicle
[12:03]  Hiro Protagonist: its bad to keep code around no one maintains
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: I doubt it will ever get removed
[12:03]  Robert Adams: osGetPhysicsEngineName (or some such) exists and should always work
[12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: Same that there are still people that use mega regions
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: a lot of people do use it
[12:03]  Lani Global: there are still a huge number of ODE users, especially amongst the sci fi and fantasy sims out there
[12:03]  Robert Adams: I'll have to check to see if it bypasses the os function test :)
[12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: lol Hiro there is a LOT of code in opensim that noone maintains
[12:03]  Hiro Protagonist: that surprises me, I've not found it to be superior in the least of ways
[12:03]  Lani Global: it isn't a matter of superiority
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: well its not really that
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: but not all scripts work on Bullet
[12:04]  Lani Global: it is mostly a matter of legacy and huge content base
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: some people just arent able to update the scripts themselves
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I personally don't use it either
[12:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes....inertia....people hate upgrading
[12:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or are afraid to
[12:04]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: bullet handles bullets very badly, which is funny as its named after them
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: I have a couple testing regions running ODE
[12:04]  Lani Global: also, it seems that bulet requires more simulator memory / power
[12:04]  Hiro Protagonist: well I for one am not making new content for it, unless someone come along and make it sit up and do tricks
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: and a megaregion on osgrid
[12:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: well, tell robert whats wrong with the bullets. so it can be fixt
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: in my experience bullet is just the opposiate - it requires much fewer resources than ode
[12:05]  Hiro Protagonist: I have found that to be precisely the opposite (bullet taking substantially less of ram and cycles)
[12:05]  Dahlia Trimble: pretty sure kitely and avination both use ODE
[12:05]  Alicia.Raven @grid.spellscape.co.uk: there are two mantis reports on it richardus
[12:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm sure that whole thing is complex enough for both to be true
[12:05]  Lani Global: so, some folks are still using ODE due to their legacy setups
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: Bullet is nice because it can be run in its own thread
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ive had 100k+ physical spheres
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: not crash the region
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: still able to log in and move
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and even erase all 100k spheres
[12:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ODE can get to about 3000
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: before it crashes
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: kept tripping over them, Neb?
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: like marbles in the hallway
[12:06]  Allen Kerensky: +1 nebadon - for me - 256 osNPCs used less than 1/3rd of the frame time as ODE - with all else being the same in the region
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: well it actually wasnt an intentional test
[12:06]  Richardus.Raymaker @simsquare.nl:8002: Nebadon, im suprissed that buyllet is not set default to use own thread
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: someone turned on my ball rezzers and logged out
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: i didnt notice until 24 hours later
[12:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: lolo
[12:06]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:06]  Hiro Protagonist: it isn't so much a matter of personal preference with me; I know that ODE was not designed for this
[12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: lol try 3000 in SL
[12:06]  Lani Global: yes, of course, developers and those who have a lot of server chops and resources can do a lot. but the average sim user out there still wants to use a lot of their content.
[12:06]  Hiro Protagonist: we've been trying to sho-horn it into the project since day one really
[12:06]  Hiro Protagonist: *shoe-horn
[12:07]  valerie llauke: lol
[12:07]  Hiro Protagonist: it was ok when we had nothing else, but its really time to move forward
[12:07]  Robert Adams: BulletSim isn't perfect but it is getting better :)
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: good luck even finding somewhere in SL you can Rez 3000 prims
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: without buying a full region
[12:07]  Hiro Protagonist: its much to be preferred over ODE
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:07]  Hiro Protagonist: lolol neb
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: Nebadon, aditi
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats true
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go. Apologies but I probably won't be around much for the next 2 weeks - other work and easter holiday stuff
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