Chat log from the meeting on 2015-03-03

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[11:01]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dirty isd uhmm dirty
[11:01]  Marcus Llewellyn: Well, inaccurate then. ;)
[11:01]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:01]  Connected
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hello :)
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[11:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi
[11:02]  Marcus Llewellyn: Intentional crashes of simulators in order to preserve grid coordinates is a massive kludge, frankly.
[11:02]  BlueWall Slade: Hi justin
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: what would be nice
[11:02]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: does RC2 have any ini changes ?
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: is a shutdown command that instead of removing a region
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: flags it as offline
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe with a datestamp
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: that would definitely make cleanup a lot easier
[11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes
[11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: why can you not send command to the region port , and see if there response back from opensim ?
[11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and you could build a "reservation" system where only a reigon with identical UUID could occupy that spot again unless x days had elapsed
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: you probably could Richardus
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: but that taxes the back end servers
[11:04]  Shez Oyen: I just made a massive var and sunk it -40 to get it off the map and then shut it down.. so nothing is there but my region s are off the map
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: if your talking about 1000s of regions
[11:04]  Shez Oyen: talk about your workaround
[11:04]  Marcus Llewellyn: I don't think Robust or anything knows what ports a simulator uses, does it? That's all sort of on the fly. So you can't just go port scanning everyone hoping to find living sims.
[11:04]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: robust does know that information
[11:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: Ah, okay
[11:05]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sofar i knoqw robust knows the port
[11:05]  BlueWall Slade: also the simstatus can get some old performance info based on some keys it has
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: it could also be flawed, someone could end up shutting down a region on osgrid and move it to metro
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: and keep same port
[11:05]  BlueWall Slade: it would be good to update that to the modern stats
[11:05]  Marcus Llewellyn: Good point.
[11:05]  BlueWall Slade: haa, yes
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: you cna reserve regions on the service side
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: yea its a pain though
[11:06]  BlueWall Slade: hook it to a paypal button
[11:06]  BlueWall Slade: :)
[11:06]  Marcus Llewellyn: hehe
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 has a question about using the radial menu to recompile scripts.....*should* it be recompiling a script contained in an object that is inside the object you use that on?
[11:07]  BlueWall Slade: I would try in sl
[11:07]  Marcus Llewellyn: I would consider that undesirable behavior, personally.
[11:07]  BlueWall Slade: I think no, but I may be wrong
[11:07]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:07]  BlueWall Slade: I found that we startup scripts even if they are marked not running on sim startup.
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: always been that way
[11:08]  Marcus Llewellyn: They're loaded? Or actually executing?
[11:08]  BlueWall Slade: I thought I fixed that at some point
[11:08]  BlueWall Slade: running
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: they load but arent running
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: oh
[11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: hte problem is if you give an item that isn't full perm that's inside a box, the script in that item can never be made to work
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: really?
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: they continue to work?
[11:08]  BlueWall Slade: I need to check again
[11:08]  BlueWall Slade: I think
[11:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: since there is no way to recompile it without taking it out and doing it "outside" and then putting that back in
[11:09]  BlueWall Slade: I dropped on from my inventory and was ok
[11:09]  BlueWall Slade: restart the sim and it's running
[11:09]  Marcus Llewellyn: They should at least sleep or something like that.
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if it still works then that is definitely not good
[11:09]  BlueWall Slade: should honor the running checkbox
[11:10]  BlueWall Slade: I'll check again to be sure. Because I needed to clear my scripts cache
[11:10]  BlueWall Slade: that may have affected it.
[11:10]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nobody who has taken a copy of my danceball will have a working version until they remove the poseball from inside ti, wear it, recompile its script, then put that one back into the danceball (after first having deleted the original)
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i can remember we talked about that 2 years ago. and i think it maby where fix
[11:11]  Marcus Llewellyn: XEngine is just... blaaah. It does the job, and I don't wanna put down the work put into it, but.... it's not exactly a stellar engine in a lot of ways.
[11:11]  BlueWall Slade: it was RiRa, but I think it is back
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: setting scripts to not running works here
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: thats not good
[11:11]  BlueWall Slade: yeah
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: clicking doors doesnt open it
[11:11]  BlueWall Slade: what happes if you restart the sim
[11:11]  BlueWall Slade: that is the issue
[11:11]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but now restart the sim and check againb. grin
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: set to run they do
[11:12]  BlueWall Slade: if they are set to not run
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: oh
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: i see
[11:12]  BlueWall Slade: it seems they are running
[11:12]  BlueWall Slade: I just had a drive-by look at it though.
[11:13]  Marcus Llewellyn is gonna attempt a repro on his grid.
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: I guess you guys saw Freaky posted a bunch of patches on mantis
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: I havent had a chance to really look at any myself
[11:13]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[11:13]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:13]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you would say its a simple if line or mysql querry that only start script with run ewnabled. at least i guess thats stored
[11:13]  BlueWall Slade: I applied the Inventory one. Thanks
[11:13]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: yea cool
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: i did kind of take a peak at the TTL one
[11:14]  BlueWall Slade: that makes sense to me
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: looked pretty simple
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ive never had trouble to my german servers
[11:14]  BlueWall Slade: maybe jcc and melanie can look at it, then we can apply it.
[11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: even from California
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: they are on very fast networks though too
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: so probably why
[11:15]  BlueWall Slade: has to do with hops though.
[11:15]  BlueWall Slade: but, fast probably means backbone
[11:16]  BlueWall Slade: I have to traverse several routers to get out of this hole I'm in
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: yea my german servers get 200mbps I think
[11:16]  BlueWall Slade: through the AT&T net to a backbone
[11:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: also of possible interest: robustHG.ini [GridService] Region_region_name = NoDirectLogin switch doesn't appear to be working now...not sure when that changed but I believe it's probably recent since I *think* it was working in January,...just discovered that on Saturday
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: They all look pretty fine on a quick look but I don't have time to be looking at such things just now
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: k i'll see what melanie thinks
[11:17]  BlueWall Slade: the llGetEnv one needs a touch of work, I think
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe BlueWall or I can push it in
[11:17]  Freaky Tech: they are all ports from my fork named arribasim ;)
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: what concerns you about llGetEnv()
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi freaky
[11:17]  BlueWall Slade: Freaky Tech - could you have the llGetEnv get a couple of the setting from the ini?
[11:18]  BlueWall Slade: I think the channel, and mabe the version
[11:18]  Freaky Tech: maybe it has some things missing for the llGetEnv that is possible
[11:18]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002 waves a silent hello to all
[11:18]  BlueWall Slade: the channel has his grid's name hard coded
[11:18]  BlueWall Slade: the versiohn is ""
[11:18]  BlueWall Slade: that could probably be gotten from somewhere
[11:18]  Freaky Tech: version should be probably what ever OpenSim has
[11:18]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and "estate_id" ?
[11:18]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[11:19]  Marcus Llewellyn: I created a script on my grid that increments an integer, and llSays the value every two seconds. I unchecked the "Running" checkbox. It stopped. I restarted the simulator. It's not running, the checkbox is still unchecked.
[11:19]  Freaky Tech: I have no fixed version for my fork at the moment so that is the reason why I kept it empty as of now
[11:19]  BlueWall Slade: ok, cool
[11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: other settings dont seems usefull in opensim only "estate_id", "sim_channel" , "sim_version" i guess
[11:19]  Freaky Tech: others were for compatibility sakes
[11:19]  BlueWall Slade: we read a file in the ./bin firectory
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: uh
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: it has to be hand coded there
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: actually no
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: for sim channel?
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: it falls back to git info i think too
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: no -version
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: if its present
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure there even is sim channel
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt it?
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: there isn't
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: - no sim channel
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: we could add a config for that, I suppose
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: we do have the version -if th efile is present
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: is it ".version" ?
[11:21]  Marcus Llewellyn: A .version file works, but it's not very predictable.
[11:21]  Marcus Llewellyn: YEah
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: for version just pull VersionInfo.Version
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's no point trying to insert git commit levels imo
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: I through it could also read git info if that was present
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:21]  Freaky Tech: sim_channel exists
[11:21]  Freaky Tech: look here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlGetEnv
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe not though
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I just don't think it exists in opensim
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: I usually set that to a short hash-commit time
[11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: and just the opensim version number. where's that stored like 0.8.1 or 0.7.6 so it could be uised for HG as example
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps the release flavour is an equivalent (dev, release, rc1, etc)
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: those two are the only things I have on that one.
[11:22]  Freaky Tech: there is the description from SL wiki:
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: meh, probably not
[11:22]  Freaky Tech: "sim_channel" 	Get the region's channel string, for example "Second Life Server". 	N/A 
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: the inventory folder patch worked great.
[11:22]  Marcus Llewellyn: That may aid open grid operatator who want to block old versions of the simulator too. That's been requested from time to time.
[11:22]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: whats the patch doing ?
[11:23]  Freaky Tech: tested a few months already 
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:23]  Freaky Tech: the HG visitors could not give folders to other avatars
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: so I would think "OpenSimulator" is priobably a reasonable value for sim_channel
[11:23]  Freaky Tech: the code was looking up the folder in the wrong inventory server before the patch
[11:23]  Freaky Tech: Justin that is matching the spec
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah
[11:24]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes. it could have Inworldz as example to. or ariibasim
[11:24]  BlueWall Slade: I guess in SL it is like "Blue Steel", etc.?
[11:24]  BlueWall Slade: the server product?
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: llGetEvnt wiki says "Second Life Server"
[11:24]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: althoughit says that's an "example"
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: it would be trivial to go and actually check
[11:25]  BlueWall Slade: right
[11:25]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Yes, but for opensim that can mean Opensimulator or arribasim or Inworldz. becaue the are different
[11:25]  BlueWall Slade: nice to have that.
[11:25]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: at least i think it would be good to use it that way
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, because forks would change sim_channel to be their name.. I don'#t understand what you are saying
[11:26]  Freaky Tech: it is effectively stating when a different branch of software is used
[11:26]  BlueWall Slade: should we just hard code it to "OpenSim Server"?
[11:26]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Woudn't exactly that be the reason for this variable?
[11:26]  Freaky Tech: so if it is my fork it would simply state that there
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: you know, OpenSimulator would be fine, this is bikesheddy
[11:26]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: i think "sim_channel" need to be hardcoded
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty sure it would be
[11:27]  Freaky Tech: maybe it needs a move to let's say VersionInfo
[11:27]  Freaky Tech: as a data source
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: that would be fine
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: although then for a fork it's just changing a hardcoded string somewhere a little different
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: although in a more logical place
[11:28]  Freaky Tech: justin that is exactly what it is about with the sim_channel
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: right only have to change 1 variable
[11:28]  Freaky Tech: compare it to the viewer channel string
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: instead of two
[11:28]  Marcus Llewellyn: Seems to me it might not be out of place in OpenSimDefaults.ini. 99% of people would never touch it. But if they desired, they could change it without forking/recompiling.
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: that kind of defeats the purpose
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't rfavour yet more config stuff for a niche case
[11:29]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: change it in ini is to easy to abuse it.. no i vote for hardcoded in source
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's simple for a fork to change the parameter
[11:29]  Marcus Llewellyn: I don't feel strongly about it. Just offering alternatives. :)
[11:29]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:29]  Freaky Tech: I think it should be hard-coded to be similar like the viewer channel
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: viewer channel usually is just the viewer name
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, what's there is fine imo, though I would favour the full name "OpenSimulator"
[11:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: somebody that fork the code knows how to change the parameter in source
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: like Singularity Viewer or Replex Viewer
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: no version info
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: doesn'#t really make much difference
[11:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: justin++
[11:30]  BlueWall Slade: I'm ok with that. Just shouild say opensim server, or such.
[11:30]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: or you use "sim_version" for the fifferent forks ?
[11:31]  Freaky Tech: if it is a fork that deviated like mine actually did, it should state that there 
[11:31]  BlueWall Slade: that is one of the parameters, it should probably report the version we have
[11:31]  Freaky Tech: equalling the viewer channel nature
[11:31]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:31]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: "sim_version" Get the region's version number string, for example "10.11.30.215699".
[11:32]  Freaky Tech: yes that would be that Dev some-git-number thing
[11:32]  Freaky Tech: including some version
[11:32]  Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would say that can juts be VersionInfo.Version
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: OpenSim 0.8.1.0 Dev 7b9ad11: 2015-02-21 14:27:01 -0800
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: << that is what is showing up here.
[11:32]  Freaky Tech: it is your definition so if you put that in, fine with me
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: that is because we define that .version
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: a region without a .version that is generated would look like this
[11:33]  Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah, everything after "OpenSim" I think comes from .version I think
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: Version: OpenSim 0.8.1 Dev (interface version 7)
[11:33]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:33]  BlueWall Slade: that would be good for the sim_version i think?
[11:33]  BlueWall Slade: pick that up.
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: for that you would pull Scene.GetSimulatorVersion()
[11:33]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:34]  Marcus Llewellyn: Ah, right. my .version is just the git version info nothing more.
[11:35]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Uhmm, not sure if its security risk. but can we maby add the HG configuration version setting there too ?
[11:35]  Freaky Tech: HG protocol itself is identical
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: we probably shouldnt deviate from what LL offers for LSL
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: thats been the general rule
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: anything outside the LSL spec is OSSL
[11:35]  Freaky Tech: just whether the suitcase filter is in place is the difference between the versions
[11:36]  Freaky Tech: Neb at least with defining sim_channel to something own means
[11:36]  Freaky Tech: own version string definition
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: yea i meant for the HG stuff
[11:36]  Freaky Tech: exactly that is beyond SL
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's nowhere that will tell you the HG 'version' afaik
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: yea I dont think that would really matter anyway
[11:36]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: "SIMULATION/0.3" i mean
[11:37]  Marcus Llewellyn: HG is more exciting that way. ;)
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: all that means is how your inventory looks
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: its all compatible
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: SIMULATION/0.3 is effectively a teleport protocol
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: with a misleading name
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: would really be no benefit to knowing that
[11:37]  Freaky Tech: I guess that is pretty much done , most pre-installation are gone nowadays
[11:37]  Freaky Tech: *pre-dating installations
[11:37]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sure if you HG from 0.3 to 0.2 it dont get wonky if its var to normal or.. ?
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: ya unlikely there are compatibility issuers well after that anyway I think
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: like pre 0.6.9 or something
[11:38]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: it would be good as example that HG portal can check the "SIMULATION/0.3" setting ?
[11:39]  Freaky Tech: I think that change is included since 0.8.0.1?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: why?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: why would that matter
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: that only matters for the people that live in the remote grid
[11:39]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Not sure. just feeling. compatibility ?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: not for someone visiting that grid
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: your home grid is what defines that protocol
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: not the grid you visit
[11:39]  Marcus Llewellyn: You can get "trapped" on a 0.7.6 region that still enforces the 4096 limit. You can check-in, but you can't check-out. ;)
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: vast amounts of things aren't documented anyway
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: like that helo service.
[11:40]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: vut agree, thats more for ossl
[11:40]  Freaky Tech: helo is used for distinguishing simiangrid services and robust services
[11:40]  Freaky Tech: when it is failing, the fallback is to robust services
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes. It's not written down anywhere afaik
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ah I didnt know that
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: except in the code
[11:40]  Andrew Hellershanks: The .version file isn't useful to indicate if one region has different code than another if you auto-generate the file from the git version info and your code has custom patches. THe version number from git would always come from the latest change which would be the last custom patch.
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: no wonder no one uses it then
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: only grid i know running simian is Moses
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's trivial to implement
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: and its not HG
[11:40]  Freaky Tech: btw there are quite some dead simiangrid versions
[11:41]  Freaky Tech: but there is a HG capable variant as far as I have seen
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[11:41]  Hiro Protagonist: whatever happened to scisim?
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: its wierd though
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: shut down
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: Intel is no longer involved in opensim
[11:41]  Hiro Protagonist: hrm
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: not officially anyway
[11:41]  Hiro Protagonist: right
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: Mic and others still do it on thier own time
[11:42]  Marcus Llewellyn: I think some SciSim people wound up at MOSES.
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: Freaky, I'll see if I can work though these patches this evening
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: probably Marcus
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: I can tell you from recent experience
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: Simiangrid based grids are not fun to work on
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: its extreemly frustrating
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing works right
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: I may have a question or two to help me understand parts. But they look good to me.
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: Thanks for the patches :)
[11:42]  Freaky Tech: I had one for three weeks in 2013
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: Inventory is a complete disaster
[11:43]  Freaky Tech: died pretty fast on me maybe something not fitting
[11:43]  Freaky Tech: I went through the whole simiangrid inventory protocol for analysis. Whoever found that nice I do not know
[11:43]  BlueWall Slade: I looked at it between 0.6.9/0.7
[11:43]  Marcus Llewellyn: I've setup a simian grid just to be able to say I've done it. I didn't use it for anything, though.
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: you should complain to Mic,
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ya Simiangrid Inventory services is so broken
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: i'll leave that to Doug
[11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: I wrote the installer for the front end lol
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: ++Hiro
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: im keeping my distance from it at this point
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: enough on my plate :)
[11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: yeah it's withered fruit
[11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: plus, it's front-end eventually became osgrid front end
[11:44]  Dahlia Trimble: I had a small simiangrid several years ago, it mostly worked ok except for the parts they hadn't finished
[11:44]  Hiro Protagonist: so we got that much good out of it
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: from what I heard from mic
[11:45]  BlueWall Slade: it's best to move forward as a group, because we have too little resources to squander
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: its been completely rewritten since it was popular
[11:45]  Hiro Protagonist: ++Blue
[11:45]  Marcus Llewellyn: I know it's difficult to find the latest version or any docuentation for it these days. A lot of borken links around about Simian.
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have never had the chance into looking at the simiangrid approach
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I think Moses is the sole maintainer at this point
[11:45]  Freaky Tech: looks like that
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: man, I'm making less sense as time goes on
[11:46]  BlueWall Slade: I looked at it because 0.7 broke all the OSWMI
[11:46]  Freaky Tech: because that seems to be the most current followed by intelvwi version
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: it was a cool idea, but as it stands today the implementation is bad
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: a lot of stuff works but doesnt work correctly
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: like for instance
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: you cant sort inventory
[11:46]  Dahlia Trimble: I think simian had a good idea for handling assets
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: its literally randomly different everytime you log in
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: inventory sorting is client-side
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: if I unpack a box that has contents
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: haha
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and it has scripts in it
[11:47]  Freaky Tech: mostly justin but not entirely
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: or... am I wrong
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: the scripts end up in my Scripts folder
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: instead of a folder that the box was named
[11:47]  Freaky Tech: there is a sort order field in the inventoryfetch
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: super frustrating
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: yeah, I remember/see it now
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt stick to the specs at all
[11:47]  Freaky Tech: also a patch regarding missing folder responses by the way
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: opensim doesn't handle it iether though...
[11:47]  Freaky Tech: I added yesterday
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: I see the comments I put there years ago saying just that
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: yes Freaky - I'll apply that this evening
[11:48]  Freaky Tech: I think some inventory stalls are provoked by that faulty response
[11:48]  Freaky Tech: before
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: they all look good - I am not sure what some of them are about,
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: interesting. I suspect it's some dumb thing with the multiple thrads, or maybe some issue with http calls
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: maybe I'll have a question when I get into it.
[11:49]  Freaky Tech: ask
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: sure
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: crista says if you reduce the 2 thrads to 1 the issue goes away
[11:49]  Freaky Tech: actually that EndpointLock in WebUtils.cs
[11:49]  Freaky Tech: is piling up threads like hell
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: that one - what is about?
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: Freaky are you maintaining a presence on IRC?
[11:49]  Freaky Tech: this is a problem for people with large inventories
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: is that the xml patch?
[11:49]  Freaky Tech: no
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: would be good if its not too much trouble
[11:50]  Marcus Llewellyn: The opensim-dev mailing list too. :)
[11:50]  Freaky Tech: that is just correction of the response so that the viewer gets what it understands as folder does not exist or is inaccessible
[11:50]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.1.0 Dev        7b9ad11: 2015-02-21 14:27:01 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:50]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:50]  Freaky Tech: actually my IRC account was only the whole time 
[11:50]  BlueWall Slade: what is the one wuth the utf8
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: speaking of threads.... I have a test region set up next to wright plaza and whenever I open the map the sim freezes. I think it may be saturating a treadpool with map inage requests to other regions
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe the EndPointLock exists to stop other endpoints being overwhlmed with requests
[11:50]  Freaky Tech: xml specification does not allow the ill-fated Byte Order Marker by Microsoft
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: takes minutes to clear up
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: Maps are pretty bad Dahlia, yes
[11:51]  Freaky Tech: that change fixes that by preventing it to be generated
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: we have seen on crowded sims that it may never clear up
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: like Lbsa Plaza
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:51]  Freaky Tech: I had tracked that on one installation as being the issue for failing presence calls
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: ohhhh ok
[11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: it shouldnt block the main thread
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: nice find
[11:51]  Freaky Tech: but back to the issue at your hand Justin
[11:51]  BlueWall Slade: Freaky, what is your irc name?
[11:52]  Freaky Tech: and Dahlia yours too
[11:52]  Freaky Tech: ftcodes1
[11:52]  BlueWall Slade: ok, thanks
[11:52]  Freaky Tech: actually it blocks lots of threads when doing WebUtil.DoServiceRequest
[11:52]  Freaky Tech: they are all hold off by a single lock per URI
[11:53]  Freaky Tech: this is more prominent to see with grids that use a single URI and port for their HG access
[11:53]  Freaky Tech: and may have smaller connection bandwidth for whatever reason maybe home connection or whatever
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont see it happening when I open the map in wright plaza, only on my region
[11:54]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Hmm, freaky can that screw running lsl script timings ?
[11:54]  Freaky Tech: map is also channeled via that module
[11:54]  Freaky Tech: yes it can
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe because Wright Plaza has already blacklisted a lot of them?
[11:54]  Freaky Tech: especially with notecards passing over flotsamcache and so on
[11:54]  Dahlia Trimble: could be
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: since it gets so many visitors
[11:54]  BlueWall Slade: probably more online regions in thsi area too
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: yea true
[11:55]  Dahlia Trimble: but they shouldnt block, they should be async and free up the thread until a response is received
[11:55]  Freaky Tech: this endpoint lock thing is applied to inventory, asset, map and a few more services
[11:55]  BlueWall Slade: Out where me a Dahlia re is a lot of space between
[11:55]  Marcus Llewellyn: Any coordinates anywhere near Wright tend to be highly coveted.
[11:55]  Freaky Tech: the asset cache is the only one that blocks mostly on file accesses
[11:55]  Freaky Tech: took a while in my fork to get that separated
[11:55]  BlueWall Slade: I will apply them in a bit and test them, then push
[11:56]  BlueWall Slade: sounds like they will help the situation here
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks BlueWall
[11:56]  Freaky Tech: but these changes maybe are a bit too heavy so I selected mostly bug fix patches that are clear and easy to review
[11:56]  BlueWall Slade: ++
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. I can imagine the endpoint lock is a problem but one has to be careful with changes like that imo
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: in case one introduces a different problem
[11:57]  Freaky Tech: I know because that requires to fix quite a few things alongside
[11:57]  BlueWall Slade: if we know what it's abouit, then we couild try iy out
[11:57]  Freaky Tech: especially on intermediary steps
[11:57]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: do you think the ones there will have any impact on the initial inventory fetch issue? (ie should I try logging into one of my own regions after applying?)
[11:57]  Freaky Tech: never heard complaints on fork based grids
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: it sounds like it's worth trying after freaky's missing folder patch gets applied
[11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: somehow I thought maptiles were handled by a central service... not sure how I got that idea
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: to see if that makes the difference
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahila: I think it differens depending on v1 vs v2/v3 viewers
[11:58]  Dahlia Trimble: maybe they were assets at one time
[11:58]  Freaky Tech: it will reduce the amount of invalidating viewer inventory cache
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: in modern viweers, map tiles are fetched via http but I believe there are still some udp calls going on alongside
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the current viewers all use webmap
[11:58]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: okay...and should I bother to run detailed logging and post it if there's still an issue?
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: possible a few don't though
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: but like sing, replex, firestorm, cool all should use the latest map methods
[11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: Justin, I dont think its the viewer, it seems to be the sim trying to fetch them via http
[11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: from other sims
[11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: sham,e still need to test replex :O
[11:59]  Freaky Tech: I also removed that replacement texture in old ImageRequest via UDP
[11:59]  Freaky Tech: because it falsifies texture cache
[11:59]  BlueWall Slade: I think the sim doesn't try to throttle how many it will try to handle
[11:59]  Freaky Tech: not yet delivered as patch
[12:00]  BlueWall Slade: the offline ones take a long time to process
[12:00]  Freaky Tech: the viewers are pretty okay with the ImageNotInDatabase response
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yeah, maybe some sychronous http there is enough to stall the viewer
[12:01]  Marcus Llewellyn: I thought Melanie added some inventory throttling mechanism a while ago.
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: I liked the UDP texture protocol... it could do many textures simultaneously and reprioritize them during download
[12:01]  Freaky Tech: there is a little issue with viewers
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: the problems started with the inventory throttling mechanism
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: only problem was it made the sim do all the work. Http allowed it to be handled by another server
[12:01]  Freaky Tech: they do not always communicate the viewer throttles
[12:01]  Freaky Tech: probably expecting a saved behaviour
[12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: a mechanism which is necessary but might have bugs. Or it might be the missing folders issue...
[12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: some complex interaction of things
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I need to go
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:03]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Justin, may I annoy you with a wish for the chatlog of last week?
[12:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye justin
[12:03]  Hiro Protagonist: o/
[12:03]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: Ciaoo Justin :-)
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: sheera: yeah, I forgot to post. Will post last and this week's soon
[12:03]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: :-)
[12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: cool thanks Justin
[12:03]  Sheera.Khan @hypergrid.org:8002: thank you :-)
[12:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: have a good week, everyone
[12:03]  Hiro Protagonist: l8r g8rz
[12:03]  Hiro Protagonist is Offline
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