Chat log from the meeting on 2015-01-20

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[10:59]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: heyas
[11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:00]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Justin
[11:00]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Mornin' Justin
[11:00]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Hello Justin
[11:00]  James Stallings: howdy Justin ;)
[11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey James, long time no see
[11:00]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Hi Justin
[11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: Not sure if neb will be around today
[11:00]  James Stallings: heehee, yeah, I been layin low :)
[11:00]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so glad to finally get a really good data capture on the latency issue...it's astounding just how badly a single latent viewer can torpedo a region and how it can snowball into a complete melt-down
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: aine: yeah, it might be some effect from the number of resends required
[11:01]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yes, and it seems like the resends aren't throttled
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I still need to insert some debugging stuff to isolate the area - as usual all my other priorities jostling for attention
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: but hope to that soon
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so with that one user he managed to rack up 60k resends in less than 10 minutes
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and that was backlogging the queue and putting everyone else into pseudo latency
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: don't know for sure if that's the real issue yet - these things can be deceptive
[11:02]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I am very happy to do a build with whatever test changes you want to do so we can help track down what is happening and ideally find a workable fix.
[11:02]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: but the pile up of resends is a candidate
[11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: or possibly the process of queueing a resend in the first place
[11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi
[11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: we also have a really good "lab rat" with a reliably horrid connection :p
[11:03]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: dont pile up the piles
[11:03]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I remember the map working in a what that could pack up the queue if something went wrong - was a while back
[11:03]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and he's willing to be used
[11:04]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: how bad is bad?
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: he's on a sat connection
[11:04]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Not good to arrive in time to see a question "how bad is bad" :)
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: and then towards the end of each month he's over his limit so they throttle him even more
[11:04]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It's like, when something goes wrong we just keep blindly putting things in the queue
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: so it's baaaaaaaaaaad
[11:04]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: :)
[11:04]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: it's compelely expected that his inworld experience would be horrible
[11:05]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but it's a surprise that his connection can single-handedly bring a region to its knees
[11:06]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I also know of a few other users that I encounter frequently while HGing around who I suspect have significant latency in their connections for whatever reason since any time one of them enters a region it grinds to a halt
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm surprised we didn't experience this effect during the conference and prior testing
[11:06]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: just get a switch with variable traffic shaping and you can simulate it i think also nice
[11:06]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: not just from a high arc?
[11:07]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I'm a bit surprised too, although maybe it was just blind luck
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: hundreds of people though, from all kinds of connections
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: but perhaps you're right
[11:08]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: there aren't all that many with really horrible connections, and the OSCC is waaaaaaaaaaaaay above the norm for hardware
[11:08]  James Stallings: it could be soething specific to his sat connection
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, could be a lot of things in play
[11:09]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: His sat connection is perhaps a worst case, but is certainly not the only connection that can cause these issues
[11:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: another user is Shawn from Craft....I always experience extreme sim issues when he enters a region (though not as bad as Danger can produce and usually the sim is able to catch up)
[11:09]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I see it with users that are tethered with cellular connections as well as some WiFi connected users
[11:09]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: would be a case where if you get enough somewhat-latent viewers in a region it can snowball
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm also surprised it didn't show up with pCampbot, since that produces massive numbers of resends
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe one factor is the oscc regions being fairly low prim
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi robert
[11:10]  James Stallings: o/
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: and with people sitting for the most part
[11:10]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hmm sat connections. :\
[11:11]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: hello all
[11:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: perhaps something unique about the different between pCampbot and a "real" viewer?
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's possible too
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: basically, it's complicated :)
[11:11]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I had tried to simulate things but was unable to come up with a set of conditions to trigger the issue. However when he, or others with bad connections come into a region the effect is very noticable.
[11:11]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: maybe his viewer is expecting responses in "x" time and when it doesn't receive them it starts to send out even more?
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, which is why live testing will now be valuable. I'll try and put the debug stuff in soon
[11:12]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: could they have a modified viewer that is doing spmething deliberately?
[11:12]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: I'll be ready whenever you have that for me
[11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: not that particular user
[11:12]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: shaWNS backpack is too heavy
[11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: he's actively happy to try to help us find and solve the issue
[11:12]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002 also vaguely wonders about badly scripted attachments.
[11:12]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: No, I have had him do a complete re-install and tried a few other things
[11:12]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: not in his case, Marcus....he can do it while Ruthed
[11:13]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002 nods amiably.
[11:13]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: though that doesn't mean that scripted attachments aren't a contributing factor in whether a sim can recover
[11:13]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: any idea what their ping sim is?
[11:14]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online
[11:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: his ping on a 50-ping test was averaging 1000ms with 10% drop iirc
[11:14]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: His ping times can vary from 500mS to as much at 1600mS
[11:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or aws it 1500ms
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: 1000ms is very high
[11:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: yeah, his connection is really, really horrid
[11:14]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Colony on Mars?
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's wha tI would expect from a lossy and overloaded sat connection
[11:14]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but it makes him a good lab rat
[11:14]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: Nah, mas must be 2500ms
[11:15]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: explains the probs i used to have on my old interleaved dsl connection
[11:15]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002 is Online
[11:15]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi sarah
[11:15]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: he knows his inworlld performance is going to be attrocious and will live with it because he doesn't ahve any alternative
[11:15]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but what he doesn't want to do is kill the experience for eveyrone else
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: justin, maby you need to remove the dust from your dailup to test it :)
[11:16]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: but he would also prefer not to have to become a hermit
[11:16]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Regardless of his own experience, he doesn't expect that to be great. But even he had no idea he had a significant negative impact on the whole region until we started digging into see what was happening.
[11:16]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: hi
[11:16]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I'm curious what might happen if he used a client like radegast.
[11:16]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: hi
[11:16]  Sarah Kline: hi Richardous
[11:16]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Hi Dahlia :)
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[11:17]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002 nods
[11:17]  James Stallings: so, Justin, what have you been up to lately? ;)
[11:17]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: or that new remote thing that FS was promoting
[11:17]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: remote thing?
[11:18]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: SLGo?
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: doing my taxes, trying to fix bugs, etc.
[11:18]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: the OnLive-like thing
[11:18]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: http://www.firestormviewer.org/firestorm-on-sl-go/
[11:18]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The one that uses the same service as Sl Go.
[11:18]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: client is in the cloud and just video goes to the user's computer
[11:18]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Taxes are a bug. ;)
[11:18]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: people willing to pay for that?
[11:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I guess so
[11:19]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Seems so.
[11:19]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: it is quite limited
[11:19]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: interesting
[11:19]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: you either pay for that or pay for a graphics card and connectivitiy
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't heard of anybody using it much with opensim yet
[11:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: nor have I
[11:19]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes, people paying for that
[11:19]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: you need connectivity either way I'd think
[11:19]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: I can see a niche for it though
[11:20]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: because a pc you cannot drag to other homes
[11:20]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I've not tried that service. I was in the Playstation Now beta, where they streamed games. I was very suprised at the quality. Latency was barely detectable.
[11:20]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: you cannot upgrade the graphios on ipad. i know users that run it on tablet when the are from home
[11:20]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: does anyone build libraries on macs? I need to build BulletSim on Windows, Linux but don't have anywhere to build on Macs... what are people using?
[11:20]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: HTML5/webgl viewer is a better future path IMO
[11:21]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: No
[11:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I wish all the viewer had devent webgl in them for MOAP, etc.
[11:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: decent.
[11:21]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The last time I built OpenSim for mac I used a Hackinstosh in a VM. But that was ages ago.
[11:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I have a beta singularity that rocks
[11:21]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I had my webgl viewer working in moap on recent linux firestorm but I couldnt get the controls to work
[11:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: But, Windows not so much I think.
[11:22]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: current problems include that I have to build BulletSim for a 32bit mac on the 64bit systems since Mono is only available in 32 bit :-(
[11:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: maybe they use a different webkit lib on windows?
[11:22]  Jak Daniels: I run OSX Snow Leopard VMware for building/testing things Robert
[11:22]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Bluewall, seems likely
[11:22]  Jak Daniels: *on VMware
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: how complex is the build process?
[11:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Robert, have yuou looked at the mono-project page lately?
[11:23]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: They're stepping up a little more with releases.
[11:23]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: a week or two ago... I was hoping things had changed...
[11:23]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: last I tried, it is not easy building 32bit on the 64bit systems
[11:23]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I'm running 3.12 on a debian box atm
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, cross-compiling is a pita
[11:24]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: ;me wishes AWS would just make osx vm's available
[11:24]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I have 3.99 working on debian but it took some coaxing to get it to build
[11:24]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I was just about to ask if anyone tried 3.99 :)
[11:24]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Which took coaxing? Compiling mono, or building opensim under 3.99?
[11:25]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I had memory problems with anything 3.x but 3.99 seems to have fixed them
[11:25]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The proboems you had with mono not freeing memory?
[11:25]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: someone making a Mono-For-OpenSim available for Macs would make some people happy
[11:25]  James Stallings: Justin, I was wondering if we miht talk a bit about xassets
[11:25]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Marcus, it would leak, dont know why
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: If we can't get a mac build for bulletsim we may just have to drop support....
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: sure
[11:26]  James Stallings: this past weekend we got into a bit of light testing of a restart of osgrid on our replicating mysql system
[11:26]  James Stallings: mel warned us off throwing the switch, saying we were pretty much oomed at around 80 to 100 gb
[11:27]  James Stallings: experience pretty well supports that
[11:27]  James Stallings: (using blobs in the tables)
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: oomed? out of memory?
[11:27]  James Stallings: she also suggested she had slutions in many xassets commits she's not made
[11:27]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I translated that as doomed. :)
[11:27]  James Stallings: doomed, sorry
[11:27]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: lol
[11:27]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I thought you were using SRAS2?
[11:27]  James Stallings: so in any case
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello nebadon
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hey
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: sorry I am late
[11:28]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Neb is late. 40 demterits.
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: my internet is on the fritz
[11:28]  James Stallings: we note that you have some changes you were going to make, ad were wondering about the timing of that, etc
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: I'm not sure what that would be. The only person who has written any major xassets code so far is me
[11:28]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Dahlia, there is an SRAS 2?
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: apart from some of the pgsql stuff
[11:28]  James Stallings: she lists a number of features sh has in reserve; filesystem blobs, dedup, others...
[11:29]  James Stallings: *she has
[11:29]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I promise I'm not trying to be snarky, but mel has a history of promising commits that take months or more to materialize. :/
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: I'm sure it's very helpful for you to hear that
[11:29]  James Stallings: yeah that is a concern
[11:29]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Andrew, thought there was, maybe my memory is going the way of mono 3.x
[11:29]  James Stallings: it would be more helpful for her to commit those changes lol
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: there are two major things I need to do. 1) Make sure I'm recording the data I want to with xassets, particularly access times. 2) to work out some way of completing a migration from an older set of asstes tables
[11:30]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The big question is whether they're true show stoppers. If not, then OSgrid is, by design, meant to upgrade to add improvements, fix things, etc.
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: At the moment, it auto-migrates as you go along but there's no mechanism for finally taking everything out of old asset tables and putting it into xasset ones
[11:30]  James Stallings: nods
[11:30]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Dahlia, I haven't looked at SRAS for a while. I'm not aware of the current version numbers on it. I'll have to take a closer look. Still trying to decide if I should go that way, or xassets, or something else to get blobs out of the db.
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: so in principle it's usable... but I realy wanted the opportunity to do a final checkover without having to do a migration. Hence the massive experimetnal thing plastered on it
[11:31]  James Stallings: right
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: and of course, it'#s never been used at scale so I don't know what problems might exist
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: though I would be reasonably confident it would be fine
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: I think Melanie is right though, that its unwise for OSgrid to move forward with blobs in the DB
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: how so?
[11:31]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Last I looked at SRAS V2 it was being officially declared as abandonware by the developer
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: cause in 6 months we will probably have to bring the grid down again
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: in the past it didnt go well with a massive DB
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: in what way?
[11:32]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I remember it failing
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: it was failing constantly
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: around 100gb
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: what kind of failure?
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: thats why we switched
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: the DB kept corrupting
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: we would have to rebuild the inde
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: probably like 10 times we had to do that
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: thats when adam wrote new asset server
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: then eventually coyled rewrote it twice
[11:33]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: then Adam was trying to use voldemort, then SRAS came about which finally worked
[11:33]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, it kept corrupting even without the blobs in the db tables?
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: with xassets we can do blobs on the disk
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: according to melanie
[11:33]  James Stallings: I think that is functionality she hasnt comitted
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: not really, xassets is all about the db
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: using Sras isnt really realistic
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: since no one is maintaining it
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: according to melanie
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: xassets can do blobs on disk
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, tjhat's news to me
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: the code I wrote is certainly not set up to do that
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: that might be what she needs to push in
[11:34]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: My blobs on disk experimental patch can be looked at to see how blobs can be stored on disk if that would be helpful for someone workingon xassets.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: this is really the big holdup for OSgrid
[11:34]  James Stallings: ^^^
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't support having a file system xassets system in core anyway, core isn't meant for hugely scalable service stuff
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: we cant really bring the grid backup until we figure out what to do
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: we dont want to bring the grid up only to have it immediately fail again
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: one major point of having it in the db was not to complicate things
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: and be down for another few months cause we have to convert a gigantic database
[11:35]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: isnt meant for?
[11:35]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The conversion from Robust to SRAS took about 3 days, if I recall.
[11:35]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I wasnt aware that was the policy
[11:35]  James Stallings: if it can be done simply enough that it works, why not have it scale
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: what?
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: try 3 months
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: it took forever
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: because it's not simple
[11:36]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: We were not down for three months! Were we??
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: no we kind of did it in the background
[11:36]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: nothing in opensim is simple
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: but I dont want to do that again
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: it was a complete nightmare
[11:36]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: 3 months to migrate data? Seems excessive.
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: took me literally watching the console for weeks
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: sleepless nights
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think anyone here actually knows how stressful that was
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps osgrid shouldn't come back as an open grid, it's a big problem to run one of thoese anyway
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe a smaller set of hypergrid regions providing public facilities
[11:37]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Users are usually not told about that sort of thing. You guys like to keep it close the hip.
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: there would be no point in bringing it back at all then honestly
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: why?
[11:37]  James Stallings: that's what osgrid is - an open grid
[11:37]  James Stallings: it always has been
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: for what 6 regions?
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: not worth it
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I didn't say 6 regions. But nto something where you allow anybody to connect
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: that model has always been fraught with problems
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: i guess id rather not do it at all myself
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: like a huge asset db for instance
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: just run my own grid
[11:38]  James Stallings: we've always managed
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: except you haven't!
[11:39]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: well had without a backup strategy
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ok well I really don't know
[11:39]  James Stallings: we've always managed to the limits of the software
[11:40]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: OSGrid is a place to connect ones own servers.... that's what makes it work
[11:40]  James Stallings: and thats pretty well where we are now
[11:40]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Robert was looking into CMS systems, maybe they are const cost competitive?
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: and hence anybody can come along and access internal services and screw the entire thing
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: but thats never really happened but maybe once
[11:40]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: there are a lot of good cloud services for storing blobs but they cost money
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: it sounds like your just not interested Justin
[11:41]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: cant trash older assets to get it to a reasonable size?\
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: if thats the case we will find someone who is
[11:41]  James Stallings: maybe we just need to accept mel's work and move on
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: interesting in what way? In trying to help you guys?
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: you dont sound interested in OSgrid at all
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would love to but I'm trying to do a huge number of other things simultaneously
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think the open grid approach has massive architectural problems.
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ok we will see what Mel can do, she is willing to help
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: she said she would push her current version of xassets in
[11:42]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: she probably has the most experience
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: I think that is really what we need
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: avinations asset services is nearly as large as OSgrid was
[11:43]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: OSgrid isn't the only entity interested in xassets.
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: you still shouldn't use it until it's not experimental
[11:43]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Hypergrid has changed Opensim dynamics. Not perfect, maybe incomplete but offers alternative data distribution models
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: they are all experimental
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have every intention of doing a sweep through where things may change without migrations
[11:43]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I'd like to see some built-in(?) solution to asset blob storage. I've got a rather large DB and want to do something about it before it blows up (if that might happen).
[11:43]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: osgrid has always been experimental
[11:43]  Nebadon Izumi: the core asset service just isnt good enough
[11:44]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: MySQL advertises that they can do files as large as the OS can handle ...
[11:44]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, what is the stated mission/purpose for osgrid?
[11:44]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: So, what blows up with it?
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: we could use SRAS again, but no one maintains it
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: if something changes osgrid would be screwed again
[11:44]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: BlueWall, if that is the case, why do people keep saying that the DB can go bad at certain sizes, or under certain combination of conditions?
[11:45]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: would xassets be maintained? Melanie doesn't seem to have all that much time lately
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: if its in core anyone really can
[11:45]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Andrew, that is what I'm saying.
[11:45]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: but how much of that assets will never be called up? Assets from people who were around years ago but now gone
[11:45]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Dahlia, not as likely to be maintained if it is a separate module outside core
[11:45]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: anyone can if they have a need to
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: the blob on disk is optional thing
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: its not mandatory
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont see why that should be excluded from core
[11:45]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: but make things maby more easy
[11:46]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Haing a way to dedupe would be very useful.
[11:46]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: if blobs are on disk
[11:46]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: lots of stuff in core is not maintained either
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: like what?
[11:46]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: it eventually gets trimmed out
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats another reason core asset server is not a good fit right now
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: no dedupe
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: we really want to bring the grid back up
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: but this is whats holding us back
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: techincally the asset servers are ready to go
[11:47]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Assets table also gets filled with lots of "one of" things, AFAIK. Editing a script or NC can create a new asset instead of updating the existing one, IIRC
[11:47]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: is there reason to believe SRAS is incapabie?
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: its capable, but again no one really knows the code
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: coyled isnt really interested anymore
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i don't know ruby
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i can barely even get it setup without his help
[11:48]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: not even ruby knows ruby - its a language without a spec
[11:48]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I did a proof of concept of blobs on disk. The changes to core were minimal.
[11:49]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Could that not be the basis of some changes to asset storage in core?
[11:49]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: yes andrew, thats one of the bad things with scripts
[11:49]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: if one of OSgrid purposes is to provide an open testbed for OpenSim - using Core solutions to problems is better testing for a wider audience
[11:49]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: using blobs on disk also assumes you format the disk correctly (number of inodes, etc)
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ext4 shouldnt really have any problems
[11:50]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: when you stop using core, you stop helping test some of opensim and invalidate the results for a larger segment of the users
[11:50]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: ext4 or xfs yeah - scale away
[11:50]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ext4 still has internal tables that need to be configured for massive # of files
[11:50]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: defaults will probably fail
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: If I were to run a grid I would not use the core service. I would write something with a better scaling approach, like maybe something using cassandra
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: i agree that core isnt suitable currently
[11:51]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: scaling always needs config changes
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: but we cant wait months again either really
[11:51]  James Stallings: if it were in core we would test it to the breaking point
[11:51]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: although not part of any standard linux distro, I have had good luck with ZFS on linux for very large datastores. It is also capable to doing snapshots which can be leveraged for backups.
[11:51]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: ya a nosql replicating approach would be a better choice I'd think
[11:51]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: James, we do have a way of breaking things. :)
[11:51]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: like cassandra
[11:52]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: asset clusters with shared storage etc - cost prohibitive however
[11:52]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I had tried riak a couple years ago but didnt get far
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: if we have to wait months to get osgrid back up while something gets developed and tested, i just don't see it coming back
[11:52]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: someone needs to make an S3 based asset store :)
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: You wouldn't expect to run a huge website on Apache alone. There have to be a number of components in play
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: we have limited funds that are quickly being depleted paying for servers that are not being used
[11:52]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: put it in core and get OSGrid up!
[11:52]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Has using the MOSES/Simian asset service been explored?
[11:52]  James Stallings: you have to remember, osgrid uses a few servers. The asset servers especially are not cheap. People wont keep paying for them to sit idly for long.
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: nah no freaking way
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is why I don't think an open grid model works. But clearly you guys don't agree
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: so I will shut up about that
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: MOSES uses simian grid
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: and its horrible
[11:53]  James Stallings: they've already sat idly for months.
[11:53]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: just do it.... OpenSim will always be one the boundry of 'clean core' and 'full of fun stuff'
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: who would decide who can and can't be on OSgrid
[11:54]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I asked cmickyb about using simian assets with a robust grid, he thought it would work but there are some hypergrid issues that need to be addressed first
[11:54]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: why so adamant on restoring osgrid to its former state  vs starting empty?
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think you realize what your proposing justin
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: and hwo about the endless bug rpoerts of 'fun stuff' that was never written properly and was long abandoned?
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: how do I not?
[11:54]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I guess it's a balance. I've always known OSgrid could crash and burn. I'm suprised it didn't earlier. But I completely appreciate the admins wanting to future-proof things too.
[11:55]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: justin, those bug reports will do what that type of bug report does now.... waits for a volunteer who cares
[11:55]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: important things get fixed
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is never in many cases
[11:55]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I wish you would have brought these issues up a few months ago when I had some time to look at them
[11:55]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I was only surprised there weren't other backups of the osgrid dbs
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: and when you have a project full of bugs it's low quality and people abandon it
[11:55]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: an strange interaction with a particular terrain painting tool will not get fixed right away
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: well honestly I havnt had the time either, but now we have people willing to do the work
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: but we want whatever we decide to do to benefit opensim
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: going with SRAS again will not
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: and will likely lead to repeat of this whole thing
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: getting a bunchj of code inside core that people may well not maintain will not help either
[11:56]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: 'full of bugs' is not binary.... it's a gray area.... if the important bugs are fixed, people will use it
[11:57]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Is Melanie's xasset code in production use, maybe at Avination?
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: not getting in in core doesnt insure it gets maintained either
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:57]  James Stallings: yes
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: so who cares
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: of course it does, you think I do nothing all the time
[11:57]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: and I would agree that everything shouldn't be thrown into core
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: I spend practically all my time trying to maintain things
[11:57]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: How is xassets different from core assets in terms of what it does?
[11:57]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: dedup
[11:57]  James Stallings: blobs on disk
[11:57]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: that's it?
[11:57]  James Stallings: those are the two biggies
[11:57]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yes
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: xassets does not do blobs on disk as I wrote
[11:58]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I very much doubt anyone thinks that, JCC. Anyone who sees the channel bots on IRC knows you're doing a great deal.
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: its basicall a better version of whats in core now
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: if melanie has private changes which do that then that's something else
[11:58]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I dont see a problem with having highly scalable services in core but I agree that they probably wont be maintained as most of the people who use them will probably have closed large grids and wont share
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: I don't really see how that is bad
[11:58]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: xassets in core stores blobs in database
[11:58]  James Stallings: I dont think you do nothing Justin, really; I just know you arent superhuman
[11:58]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: we're talking around a gray area.... can't put everyone's abandable pet project in core.... but can't exclude everything that is not military hardened
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see if i can get melanie
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: I have to go and do other things now
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's the top of the hour
[11:59]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: bb jcc
[11:59]  James Stallings: we should distinguish between core xassets and avination xassets in this discussion I think
[11:59]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Take care, Justin.
[11:59]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++
[11:59]  Richardus.Raymaker @hypergrid.org:8002: bye justin
[11:59]  James Stallings: thanks Justin
[11:59]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: See ya Justin, take care
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: ok melanie responded
[11:59]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: bye Justin
[11:59]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: Have a great night Justin, take care and thanks for the help
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: oh your leaving?
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: sigh
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure there will be more discussion on this but I think something majro should be on the mailing list and not just put into core as is
[12:00]  James Stallings: what did Mel respond?
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: i was going to have her come here
[12:00]  James Stallings: ah
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: but if justin is leaving nevermind
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: alright, let me stick around for 15 mins
[12:00]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it would behave like coupling the asset cache to the backend?
[12:00]  James Stallings: /|\ thanks Justin
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: nice
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Melanie
[12:01]  Melanie Milland: hi
[12:01]  James Stallings: o/
[12:01]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Hey, Melanie
[12:01]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: hi Melanie
[12:01]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Hi Mel
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: ok so, we are trying to get OSgrid resolved
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: and we are wondering about your version os xassets
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: some are not sure it is suitable for core inclusion
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: hoping you could maybe fill us in on what its all about
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: whats different than what is already in core
[12:03]  Melanie Milland: i don't know why anyone whould think it's not suitable for core without having seen it
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: you have added code to the core xasstes for storing blobs on disk rather than in the db?
[12:04]  Melanie Milland: i thought xassets in core was already blobs. if not, yes, ours is
[12:04]  Melanie Milland: i mean, on-disk blobs
[12:04]  Melanie Milland: we also gzip them where it saves space
[12:04]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: multiple file systems? replicatable?
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: xassets in core stores blobs in db. One reason was to not create a more complicated backup situations wher eboth file system stuff and db has to be backed up
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: to make core xassets usable out of the box without making things more complicated for the user
[12:04]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: The gzip/gunzip process doesn't add excessive overhead to handing out the blobs to viewers?
[12:05]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Melanie, is it sort-of like placing the asset cache in the backend?
[12:05]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: similar?
[12:05]  Melanie Milland: we find that gunzip is very lightweight and gzip isn't too frequent to be an issue
[12:05]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: large assets like meshes and textures are already compressed
[12:05]  Melanie Milland: correct - as i said, it compresses only where there are saving afair
[12:06]  Melanie Milland: so that hits mainly notecards and scripts
[12:06]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: and linksets
[12:06]  Melanie Milland: indeed
[12:06]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We already have the file-based asset cache in OpenSim, so I guess it wouldn't be a huge stretch
[12:06]  Melanie Milland: justin, what would be the reason to not include a disk based asset service in core? we're all about choices, or used to be anyway
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: one concern is greater complexity for moderate users. If they use the option, the backup approach becomes more complex
[12:07]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: There was some concern it would get put in core and then be unmaintained
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: you can't just say "backup the database" any more
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya but its optional and not by default
[12:07]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that is on the user Justin
[12:07]  Nebadon Izumi: why would that really matter
[12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: if something is optional it does get used and should be supported
[12:08]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: many are in over their head already
[12:08]  James Stallings: lol
[12:08]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: :o
[12:08]  James Stallings: arent we all heh
[12:08]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: I like the current core asset server for my small grid, it's very easy to back up. I wouldnt want to use it for anything much larger tho
[12:08]  Nebadon Izumi: why should we dictate how people do their backups?
[12:08]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I would +1 inclusion of it
[12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: actually, just to clear things up, if the xassets service you are talking about one that builds on the code in core or is it entirely separate?
[12:08]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: just like turning on HG... there is a lot of stuff a user has to know and account for..... turning on blob storage would be another of those
[12:09]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Would this replace current robust assets? Or just be another option? If the former, people wanting a simpler setup can choose the old asset server.
[12:09]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: That is as long as the current default remains the same.
[12:09]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Novices will usually use SQLite anyway.
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: its not like we teach people how to do database backups in the first place
[12:09]  James Stallings: I wouldn't want it on by default
[12:09]  Nebadon Izumi: something they need to learn on their own
[12:09]  Melanie Milland: justin: ours is called FSAssets and descends from core assets, but it's seen a lot of revisions since then so may be significantly different in places
[12:09]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: We should keep assets + xassets
[12:09]  James Stallings: I just want to be able to use it
[12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, so we are talking about two differnet things
[12:09]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I've got a 400+G asset table and wondering if I need to migrate it to something else than stock core asset system.
[12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: if you put fsassets into core would you be willing to spend time to maintain it?
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: I am surrpised you havent ran into trouble Andrew
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: how many users?
[12:10]  James Stallings: yeah that kinda had me wondering too
[12:10]  Nebadon Izumi: and how do you back that up?
[12:10]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ - at least until is sees some use and bugs are reported.
[12:11]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Nebadon, not sure of the numbers off hand. May be couple thousand but in the hundreds, re: active users.
[12:11]  Melanie Milland: justin: we maintain it anyway, it's what runs avination
[12:11]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: can it be easily backed up and/or replicated? if not, all this is moot anyway
[12:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanle: does it have an optino to store in db or is it filesystem only?
[12:11]  Melanie Milland: whether or not we copy that to core is a nonissue in terms of work
[12:11]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Dahlia, it would need to have both DB bacup and file system backup.
[12:11]  Melanie Milland: as long as no one goes and does refactoring on it to make it diverge too much
[12:12]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: It might complicate backing up both in terms of making sure they are both in sync.
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: of course, any code that goes into core can be touched by any core developer
[12:12]  Melanie Milland: it stores assets in the filesystem, always. blobs are BAD for mysql so they're not supported - what would be the point?
[12:12]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Does Avination's code contain a migration tool/strategy for going from current assets to the new one?
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've never read anything that definitely says blobs are terrible in mysql
[12:13]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: percona, maria 10, and mysql 5.6 are supposed to handle blobs betterer
[12:13]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: Melanie, how about backups and/or replication?
[12:13]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think that's a religious argument
[12:13]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: hehe
[12:13]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Justin, neither have I but I keep hearing people say its bad.
[12:13]  Melanie Milland: marcus: we made a copy-on-read connector at some point but i couldn't say where it currently is
[12:13]  James Stallings: BlueWall: we just dodgin what done bit us before
[12:13]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++
[12:14]  Melanie Milland: justin: bug fixes and enhancements are one thing, wholesale refactoring is another. after all, this is tried and tested code, it should not need anyone's hands on it
[12:14]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: but I have heard both arguments about it.
[12:14]  James Stallings: I hadnt really heard either, just workin off direct experience ;)
[12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: one can't impose conditions on code that comes into core. If changes are necessary then anybody can make them.
[12:15]  Melanie Milland: dahlia: fsassets doesn't handle either. there are tools out there that can do that job much better. avination is fully replicated using mysql replication and drbd
[12:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: a service can always be provided outside of core - by going into core it becomes something else
[12:15]  James Stallings: lets ot be tedious; that's pretty fundamental to the nature of the project
[12:15]  Nebadon Izumi: past experience for OSgrid blobs in the database was not good, but I can't really say ive seen that in writing anyway, only my own very horrible experiences
[12:15]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002 just had the thought that gunzip on assets on disk isn't such a big deal as the regions would cache some of the assets. Biggest hit is always on startup with empty caches.
[12:15]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Conditions can't be imposed - but I really doubt that it would see huge changes
[12:15]  Melanie Milland: justin: no one is talking about conditions
[12:16]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: many eyes on it may find some improvements though.
[12:16]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: those are usually small
[12:16]  Billy.Bradshaw @hg.viewtwo.net:8600: Would have been advantageous for this issue to have been raised on the dev mailing list, at least people would be better prepared.
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont be a forced change
[12:16]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no real reason to prepare anyone for anything
[12:16]  Melanie Milland: justin: but if someone refactors stuff just because they don't like names or ordr of methods in a file, then that would be something i'd dislike
[12:16]  Melanie Milland: because it makes work for me
[12:16]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Presumably, Avination would welcome fixes or improvements, so long as they were reasonably easy to merge.
[12:16]  James Stallings: we just need the codez :3
[12:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: those things can always change. But as BlueWall says, if it already makes sense there's no reason to touch it.
[12:17]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Melanie, is it compatible with the code in core now - names, format, etc.?
[12:17]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: JCC, Mel is saying smaller changes allows cross-merging and is a Good Thing.... major re-arrangement of code makes cross-merging nearly impossible
[12:17]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: naming or code ordering is subjective anyway, there is no "right or wrong"
[12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: if something is put into opensim then it can get changed. OpenSim should not be held static by proprietary code
[12:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: if someone wants proprietary code then that is fine, but it cannot be allowed to hold back change in an open-source project
[12:18]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think it would be a plus
[12:19]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I don't think anyone suggested that the contribution would be propietary. I only saw a request for consideration in merging changes.
[12:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: we should keep current assets + xassets and add this one as whatever Melanie want's to anme it.
[12:19]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: not suggesting static... why take things to extreme... just know that if major refactoring is done then changes to and from avination won't be able to happen
[12:19]  Melanie Milland: justin, you're flogging the shadow of the stain that used to be in the place where a dead horse used to lie
[12:19]  Robert.Adams @home.livingroomcam.us:14559: it's not the end of the world... but it is not optimal
[12:19]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: lol, Melanie
[12:19]  Melanie Milland: the point i'm making is that changes only designed to make work for me would not be welcome
[12:19]  Melanie Milland: note, ONLY DESIGNED
[12:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: Changes are not made just to make work for you.
[12:20]  Melanie Milland: functional enhancements, fixes, etc are always welcome in core
[12:20]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Melanie, if you bring it in, will you make it a 3rd option?
[12:20]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: or replace xassets
[12:21]  Melanie Milland: yes. i see no point in removing any of the existing services
[12:21]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Good.
[12:21]  Melanie Milland: they do appear to be in use
[12:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I like having a deduping option w/o writing blobs to disk too.
[12:21]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: My grid is young and tiny. I'd like to have dedup sooner rather than later.
[12:21]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I think xassets, not so much. But it would be useful when stable.
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: do we currently have that now BlueWall?
[12:21]  Nebadon Izumi: I didnt think we did
[12:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Nebadon, we do.
[12:22]  Melanie Milland: avn started without dedup. took months to process the data later
[12:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: xassets dedupe, but keep blobs in the database.
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ok cool i didnt think dedupe was working
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: thats good
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: not sure why I thought that, i thought it was incomplete
[12:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: It is not done - per warnings
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ah ok
[12:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: It is incomplete, because there are two things I want to do to it
[12:22]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: could change out from under you
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: I didnt realize it was functional at all
[12:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: as I said earlier
[12:22]  Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: it is completely functional
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i guess i misunderstood
[12:23]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I have access to an older 100G or so DB and found it had around 40% duplication of asset data.
[12:23]  James Stallings: the mig tool shouldnt be THAT heinous
[12:23]  Melanie Milland: justin, what are you planning?
[12:23]  James Stallings: if I had good before and after schemata I could do that easily
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: actually we have one already
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: probably could be modified slightly
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: andrew wrote it
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: its php-cli
[12:23]  Nebadon Izumi: worked very well
[12:23]  James Stallings: nice
[12:23]  James Stallings: that woould be my precise approach
[12:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: I want to make sure the core xassets isn't missing any fields it might be good to have. Then I wanted to work out a completely migratio nstrategy from existing assets
[12:23]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Yeah, I was about to mention my migration script. It can be modified as needed.
[12:24]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++ on the migration part.
[12:24]  James Stallings: the tl;dr is a mig tool in this crowd is not problematic
[12:24]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: that could probably work on both the xassets and melanies
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: i have it packaged in my sras kit
[12:24]  Nebadon Izumi: if you want it
[12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: alrigjht. So let's say I can try to complete what I wanted to do on core xassets
[12:25]  James Stallings: we may need it
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: http://onikenkon.com/sras/
[12:25]  Nebadon Izumi: its in the zip
[12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: which is relatively simple. The step of allowing complete migration can be added later. In fact, it doesn't matter if you are starting afresh
[12:25]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I was also thinking that the migration script can be run on a live system to migrate the assets up to a certain date and then a grid can be taken down to migrate the assets after that date to minimize grid down times during migration
[12:25]  James Stallings: nods
[12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: james: so then you have the option of either using the existing core assets or melanie's new fsassets when she addes it
[12:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: core xassets
[12:26]  James Stallings: they'd both be core at that point, but yeah...
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: on of the reasons we are keen on using melanies
[12:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not trying to undercut melanie, I just feel bad now
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: is because there is a small chance we might still be able to recover sras assets
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: and push them into xassets
[12:26]  Melanie Milland: why do you feel bad?
[12:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: but yeah, if you want assets on fs you will want melanie's fsasset
[12:26]  James Stallings: you shouldn't
[12:26]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Are we now talking about having 3 asset storage systems? core, xassets, and fsassets?
[12:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: because this is the thing stopping osgrid from coming back up
[12:26]  James Stallings: you arent superman bub
[12:26]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: With both in core, we would have a small, medium and large solution
[12:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: some kind of sustainable asset strategy
[12:26]  James Stallings: and you did not know that
[12:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: although I think an open tgird is fundamentaly flawed in this respect
[12:26]  James Stallings: hell, we didnt know your code was diff from mels
[12:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya beleive me justin
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: my goal here is to minimize work load
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: and not repeat this whole scenario 6 months from now
[12:27]  James Stallings: mine is to get our admittedly suicidal grid back up
[12:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb: ok, let's be clear. core xassets is what I wrote and it is in core but experimental. Melanie's fsaset s is a separate service which stores blobs on fs instead of db, as far as I'm hearing
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: sure
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: that sounds great to me
[12:27]  James Stallings: I think we've been working miracles with it for years and I'm not finished yet
[12:27]  James Stallings: we're not finished yet.
[12:27]  Nebadon Izumi: and I am sorry if I didnt explain things as good as possible
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: I also am juggling many projects
[12:28]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Long term, it would be good to have migration for straight assets ---> xassets ----> fassets
[12:28]  Melanie Milland: well, as i outlined in chat the other day, we have tried and proven replication strategies and also growths paths for fsassets
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: currently in sweden, so im a bit scrambled
[12:28]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Aren't many of us jugglingtoo many projects?
[12:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: so perhaps you guys could go away and decide if you want to use xassets or fsassets. Then let one of us know?
[12:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: unless Melanie was planning on putting fsassets in core anyway
[12:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: imminently
[12:28]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I'm still confused on one point. Does Mel's service do *only* the filesystem, or can it do both fs and db?
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: personally id prefer to start with fsassets
[12:28]  Nebadon Izumi: if melanie is game
[12:29]  James Stallings: lol I would hope you both contribute your work
[12:29]  Nebadon Izumi: but honestly im not doing the work
[12:29]  Nebadon Izumi: Allen and James?
[12:29]  Nebadon Izumi: what say thee
[12:29]  Melanie Milland: marcus: fsassets does a db that is used as an index to the blobs on the fs, which are deduped
[12:29]  James Stallings: which is the quicker path to grid upness?
[12:29]  Melanie Milland: it doesn't ever store assets as blobs
[12:29]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Melanie: So id does not and will not store asset blobs in the DB.
[12:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its basically SRAS
[12:29]  Nebadon Izumi: but in C#
[12:30]  Melanie Milland: marcus: correct. use xassets if that is what you want
[12:30]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++
[12:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: expect not yet
[12:30]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Thanks. All clear now. :)
[12:30]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: OSGrid has always been somewhat experimental, and that's been very valuable to OpenSimulator. I say go ahead with Melanie's service if she's game
[12:30]  James Stallings: It would help to know what kind of timeframe Mel can afford in terms of pushing FSAssets
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: Melanie what kind of turn around
[12:30]  James Stallings: "no pressure" LOL
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: hate to pressure you, but ball is kind of in your court now
[12:30]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:30]  Melanie Milland: i can likely manage it this week
[12:30]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Yay! (insert happy dance)
[12:31]  Melanie Milland: if neb pokes me a couple of times - mind like a sieve ;)
[12:31]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ++
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: if there is one thing I am expert at its poking
[12:31]  Melanie Milland: k
[12:31]  James Stallings: Justin, I would still love to see your polish to Xassets
[12:31]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: how about restoring the recovered data? can that work with fsassets?
[12:31]  James Stallings: I would like for us to come out with a mig tool that can mig data all around
[12:31]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I think that's the whole point, Dahlia.
[12:31]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: That's why I use Tomboy for keeping an electronic ToDo list.
[12:31]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Justin, the xassets is a really good mid-level soulution
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: if the data is good, possibly dahlia
[12:31]  Melanie Milland: so i guess that is settled
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: but it kind of gets tricky
[12:31]  Melanie Milland: Welcome to the Dark Side. Are you surprised we lied about the cookies?
[12:31]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Well, not the whole point.
[12:31]  Nebadon Izumi: we may need help with that
[12:32]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: does an importing procedure exist?
[12:32]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: well there you go - I am game for whatever folks want - and yes, Xassets is what I'd like for my private grid - just one db to wrangle and not a lot of files I already have millions
[12:32]  James Stallings: I thought theCAKE was a lie. No one said there would be cookies.
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: importing assets is easy
[12:32]  Melanie Milland: if i get access to the data i can tell you
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: merging in old inventory
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: not so
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: im sure it can be done
[12:32]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: What I want most is dedup. DB or FS isn't as relevant to me.
[12:32]  Nebadon Izumi: but its not as simple as the assets
[12:32]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: easy, assuming the procedure exists
[12:32]  Melanie Milland: in avn, we have transparently and without downtime handled several catastrophic hardware failures
[12:32]  Melanie Milland: i'm pretty good with mangling big data by now
[12:32]  James Stallings: +100
[12:33]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: does FSassets also support HGAssetService?
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and Melanie you said you might be able to lay hands on osgrid hardware?
[12:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ]\\
[12:33]  James Stallings: excellent question Allen
[12:33]  Melanie Milland: of course. it supports the asset protocol, HG builds on it
[12:33]  James Stallings: :)
[12:33]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: plug&pray
[12:34]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: :)
[12:34]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: lol
[12:34]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: How assets are saved shouldn't have any real impact on anything else. Assets are requeste and passed around as they always have been. Just the source of them has changed.
[12:34]  Melanie Milland: well, i have a soft spot for osgrid
[12:34]  Melanie Milland: so i'll be there when it counts
[12:34]  James Stallings: dont we all :)
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: great, thanks Melanie
[12:34]  Melanie Milland: after all, i'm past my health issues somewhat
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: that means a lot to me personally
[12:34]  James Stallings: Thanks Mel
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: I wish I had more time myself
[12:34]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: yeah everyone has been really great during this mess - it is much appreciated
[12:34]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: I'm greatful Melanie
[12:34]  James Stallings: especially the users
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: I really appreciate what James and Allen and Dan have been doing
[12:34]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Melanie, Good to hear you are (mostly) better
[12:34]  Nebadon Izumi: in my absence
[12:35]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: I've bothered Diva and Justin with questions too lol everyone has been supportive
[12:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I honestly tihnk you guys should serious think about the nature of the grid though
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: we are
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: things are not going to be the same
[12:35]  Nebadon Izumi: its a whole new ball game
[12:35]  James Stallings: we want the cieling to be high when we crash into it for good
[12:35]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: that's what the "restructuring" headline in the updates is sort of about
[12:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: the architecture of an open grid is really difficult - sl just wasn't designed for this kind of thing
[12:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: can you say anything about those things or would you rather wait?
[12:36]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: mostly me asking stupid questions about what needs to be done with each service OSG had configured lol
[12:36]  James Stallings: well we're looking into certain backend changes
[12:37]  James Stallings: replication and HA filesystems are front and center
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the initial changes will be about having solid backups
[12:37]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I've always regarded OSgrid's open grid model as an aberration. It isn't how OpenSim is meant to run. But I bet, at least for core services, it has been good testbed and source of reports from the admins. It has other less tangible benefits for users.
[12:37]  James Stallings: yes
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: we have a replication asset server in place now
[12:37]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: an abberation thats being copied a lot
[12:37]  James Stallings: the ability to perform hot incremental backups is a key need we are attempting to address
[12:37]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: for example, do we need jump4000/jump8000 regions anymore or can we recover the resources for those
[12:37]  Nebadon Izumi: mysql replication and possibly some other methods that melanie will guide us with for replicating blobs
[12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: nothings 100% decided there yet
[12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: still exploring best solution that fits our servers
[12:38]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: The only time I've run into 4000/800 scenarios is when trying to HG to someone running 0.7.6. I'm looking at you, Caltech.
[12:38]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Allen, I thought the TP limit is gone now so jump regions should be a thing of the past
[12:38]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: yeah just me questioning stuff to see how much I've gotten myself into
[12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: we dont need those anymore
[12:38]  Allen.Kerensky @icemoon.no-ip.org:8002: Andrew exactly why I was bothering them about it hehehe
[12:38]  Nebadon Izumi: they should go away for sure
[12:38]  James Stallings: lol caltech
[12:39]  Melanie Milland: OSG would be better off with 4 servers @3tb rather than 2 servers @6tb
[12:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: I think notice about a new assets esrvice should be posted to the dev mailing list first so other devs will know what's going on
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: honestly though other than this asset mess
[12:39]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: +1 mailing list
[12:39]  Nebadon Izumi: all of the other services have held up amazingly well
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: having opensimulator behind nginx and balancing things works very well
[12:40]  James Stallings: Mel: financial constraints
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: osgrid is not just stock opensiim exposed to the world
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: its very different than say how OSCC grid is setup
[12:40]  Nebadon Izumi: its very well protected by nginx
[12:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: but you still have the big vulnerability of having to expose the private servivce port/s to region operators
[12:41]  Melanie Milland: well, that is mostly a content risk
[12:41]  Melanie Milland: which is why there isn't commercial content
[12:41]  Nebadon Izumi: yea content on OSgrid cant be protected
[12:41]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Many things on OSgrid are vulnerable. Content permission are, for all practical purposes, useless there. It's a price one pays for joining that grid.
[12:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: inventory operations are also a problem
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: even if those were not exposed, anyone hosting a region can snag any content
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: well we dont allow deletes
[12:42]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing can ever really be permantly deleted
[12:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: as are various other service operations
[12:42]  James Stallings: it's a job of mitigation and mediation
[12:42]  James Stallings: we learn a lot from it
[12:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: have you looked into storing assets in the cloud?
[12:42]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: And users accept those risks too. Or should.
[12:42]  James Stallings: it's pricey
[12:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: let someone else take care of the baclup problem
[12:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: we have looked into cold storage
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: via amazon
[12:43]  James Stallings: yeah I was about to mention that
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: its cheap
[12:43]  James Stallings: slow but viable as a backup solution
[12:43]  Nebadon Izumi: http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/
[12:43]  Melanie Milland: justin: "the cloud" just means "servers you don't control". for the huge space and bandwidth assets need, that isn't workable financially and even "cloud" servers can lose data
[12:44]  Melanie Milland: and you'll have NO recovery from that
[12:44]  Melanie Milland: because they'll never send you the HD
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: yea its long process to get data back unfortunately
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what happened with osgrid originally
[12:44]  Melanie Milland: i don't know why it took this long, tbh
[12:44]  Nebadon Izumi: for a long time i was runningn backups to servers at my house
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: but the hardware eventually died
[12:45]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Some cloud storage solutions claim you don't lose data as they copy the data to multiple places.
[12:45]  Nebadon Izumi: honestly I am a bit perplexed at why it took so long myself
[12:45]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: ... until they actually do lose it ...
[12:45]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Seth: yea, :)
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: I am not all that impressed with the recovery service that the data center uses
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: but we can't change that
[12:46]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: htey don't lose it...they just can't find it
[12:46]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I doubt anyone is. :/
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: what is done is done
[12:46]  James Stallings: this took so long because there were acually two full recovery operations.
[12:46]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: lol Aine
[12:46]  James Stallings: the first failed when delivered to us.
[12:46]  Melanie Milland: well, let me know when i can take a peek at the data
[12:46]  James Stallings: you need to see the old sras data mel?
[12:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ok we will for sure, step one is getting new fassets functional
[12:46]  Melanie Milland: yes
[12:47]  James Stallings: Ok I will get it 'hooked up'
[12:47]  Melanie Milland: i want to see how hard a reimport is
[12:47]  James Stallings: nods
[12:47]  Melanie Milland: it may be trivial
[12:47]  Melanie Milland: we did make a tool for it and i may even find it
[12:47]  James Stallings: I'll ping you on IRC when its avail
[12:47]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: From your fingers to fate's ears. :)
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i suspect sras doesnt have the embedded data your server does
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: im like 98% sure it doesnt
[12:47]  Melanie Milland: we shall see
[12:47]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Melanie, there is always my migration script that might be helpful.
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: but if we are luckly there should be 5 sql dumps
[12:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and if were really lucky the actual mysql structure is still valid
[12:48]  Melanie Milland: if the data were naked, that would be pretty indecent....
[12:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i give us 50/50 chance right now
[12:48]  Nebadon Izumi: either way grids coming back up
[12:48]  Melanie Milland: neb, you ain't seen nuthin' yet
[12:48]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe if anyone can do it its you Melanie
[12:48]  Melanie Milland: giving up just isn't in my book
[12:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt of that
[12:49]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Rebuilding the database from blobs on disk is a problem if there isn't extra data in the blobs that would assist in recreating the assets db.
[12:49]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yeah, I want my "No Pants Weekend Barrel"
[12:49]  Shez.Oyen @mirage.duckdns.org:9038: Melanie, if I can wash your car or walk your dog to give your more time for OSG, let me know!
[12:49]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:49]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: I know it's not as valuable, but if you guys need additional crash test dummies in testing, from people who're willing to lose stuff, don't hesitate to put out that call.
[12:49]  Melanie Milland: i need to run
[12:49]  Nebadon Izumi: yea dont worry when it comes testing time, you all will know
[12:49]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Thanks Melanie
[12:49]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Thank you Mel. :)
[12:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to run too
[12:49]  Melanie Milland: you're welcome
[12:49]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Thanks Justin
[12:49]  Melanie Milland: bye for now
[12:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thanks guys, this ran longer than i expected
[12:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: best of luck to you guys, I hope you get osgrid back up soon
[12:49]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: ty all
[12:49]  Nebadon Izumi: but i am super happy we all had time finally
[12:49]  Aine.Caoimhe @refugegrid.com:8002: have a great week
[12:49]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: I'd also like to get going.
[12:50]  Jak Daniels: thank you everyone :)
[12:50]  Seth.Nygard @refugegrid.com:8002: have a great week everyone, take care
[12:50]  Nebadon Izumi: talk soon everyone we will keep everyone updated as we humanly can
[12:50]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: sorry I stepped away. Does this mean Melanie will push the Avination asset server to core?
[12:50]  Arielle.Popstar @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: good meeting
[12:50]  Andrew.Hellershanks @login.greatcanadiangrid.ca:8002: Let me know if my scripts might be helpful in doing migrations and if they need mods.
[12:50]  Marcus.Llewellyn @grid.verymad.net:8002: Dahlia, hopefully this week.
[12:50]  Nebadon Izumi: thanks Andrew we will
[12:50]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I have to take off too - Thanks everyone. See you all next week.
[12:50]  Dahlia.Trimble @grid.wwweb3d.net:8002: cool
[12:50]  BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002 is Offline
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