Chat log from the meeting on 2014-04-29

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[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:02]  Mata Hari: hi Justin
[11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:03]  dan banner: hey everyone
[11:03]  Mata Hari: hi Dan
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone
[11:04]  TBG Renfold: Hi there everyone, first time I've been in these meetings and my machine is about to melt! :(
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon deliberately keeps this region complex to test the software
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: which also puts a strain on the viewer
[11:04]  Mata Hari: throw a bucket of ice water on your CPU to cool it down
[11:04]  dan banner: ya try turning down draw distance
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: Mata, better go sit in the fidge then
[11:05]  Mata Hari: (preferable icy *salt* water
[11:05]  TBG Renfold: the machine I'm on is about 7 years old :( The fridge sounds good :)
[11:05]  TBG Renfold: anyone got a spare hoover? cpu fan needs a vlean :)
[11:05]  TBG Renfold: clean*
[11:05]  Dev Random knows from experience that most of the furniture in here has poor sit-positions.
[11:06]  Eliopod Beaumont: hi all
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: Last time I clean my laptop fan out it helped a lot
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: cleaned
[11:06]  Mata Hari: I can't sit in this dress....I weighted it best possible for dancing so it doesn't like it when I set
[11:06]  Mata Hari: *sit
[11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: taking apart a laptop to clean a fan is not easy. You could get one of those laptop coolers popular with mac users.
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: I hear Michael can't make it today
[11:07]  TBG Renfold: I just had a look at mine... eek... doesn't help where I smoke aswell. sticky gunk.
[11:07]  Dev Random: Justin, is radams showing up ?
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know, he's not on irc
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: its anyway quite
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: I need to get feedback from him about this terrain storage stuff
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: the 0 leven stuff ?
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: ooopps level
[11:08]  Dev Random: that's what I was wondering about.... any reason why The in-memory format has to match the DB format?
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, the ability to at least store z = 508 terrains as seen on the ll grid
[11:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: Is there still a lot to do before 0.8 comes out?
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: dev: not really, though db format has to be capable of storing the numbers as well
[11:09]  TBG Renfold: I expect this is Roberts area. But anyone else experience their avatar capsule floating off when sitting on certain parts of the terrain?
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: this terrain issue, decision on the group notice issue, a few other small things
[11:09]  Dev Random: justing: have you considered floats in memory, but offset + delta for DB.
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm desparate to get the first rc out soon, so it may end up as a compromise
[11:09]  Dev Random: floats are good for 7 digits, so should work for +/- 100km @ 1cm precision.
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: need to admit. a bit frozen with sl and opensim. not doing to much
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: dev: you would have to constrain the in memory stuff
[11:10]  dan banner: im still seeing some difficulty with steps
[11:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: k. ok so it might happen this coming monht.
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I sincerely hope so because I will just run out of time otherwise
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: i guess, freom other years , somewhere in june.
[11:11]  dan banner: smaller steps and little edges seem to be harder to walk than larger steps or large objects
[11:11]  Mata Hari: I guess that means the the inventory fetch/cloud login issue will be waiting until after 0.8
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:11]  Mata Hari: and yes, Dan, I was noticing that the other day
[11:12]  Mata Hari: was having trouble walking up a set of prim steps that have only 0.15m spacing but had no trouble at all with 0.3m steps
[11:12]  dan banner: yup
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: wasn't robert trying some prim shape other than capsule?
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, physics avatar shape
[11:13]  dan banner: and i get stuck on stuff like .01 lip on the floor
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: prim steps always gave prroblems a few weeks ago 0.25 did not work well to
[11:13]  Mata Hari: I didn't mantis it yet though and don't recall seeing a report on it
[11:13]  dan banner: ya his rectangle probably needs the edges beveled lol
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: stairs are problematic for years. not sure if the direction is still a problem to
[11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: I use steps of 0.25m height. That used to work well.
[11:14]  dan banner: lots of steps that used to work fine dont anymore
[11:14]  Mata Hari: I switched from using .25 or .2 steps down to .15 because it seems to work better for a long time
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: tandrew, it did in the past last time not really. could be a mesh stair i made to. (meshs tudio)
[11:14]  Mata Hari: but now it's the reverse
[11:14]  dan banner: ive had to resort to invisible ramps
[11:15]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. SOmething changed since 076PF
[11:15]  dan banner: on small steps
[11:15]  Mata Hari: yeah....which is annoying because it will often spawn a ton of alpha glitches exactly where you don't want them
[11:15]  dan banner: alot has changed since 0.7.6 lol
[11:15]  Andrew Hellershanks: True :)\
[11:15]  Andrew Hellershanks: -\
[11:16]  dan banner: last 3 mantis i did got fixed tho so its not all bad
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: the default phys engine for starters
[11:16]  vegaslon plutonian: could always change your physical shape to a ramp in your mesh stairs
[11:17]  Mata Hari: if using mesh stairs, yes
[11:18]  Mata Hari: I'm trying to move away from using mesh in building when I don't need to since it greatly reduces region load speed on a less-than-high-end server
[11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: yes.
[11:18]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: hmmm.
[11:18]  Andrew Hellershanks: I need some help debugging a bug(?). I'm trying to figure out how to retrieve data from external websites. The LSL script and the external PHP script worked in 0.6.9 and still work in Avination. Just not in 076PF or git master.
[11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: what goes wrong?
[11:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: The PHP script gets the data and sends the reply. The LSL script in world never receives the reply.
[11:19]  Dev Random: andrew: can you wget the data from the sim server? i.e. have you ruled out the network?
[11:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: sim server?
[11:20]  Dev Random: server where the sim is hosted
[11:20]  Andrew Hellershanks: Dev, I'm not sure what you are asking so I don't know how to test that.
[11:21]  Andrew Hellershanks: I can get the datasnapshot information from opensim instances.
[11:21]  Dev Random: from a dos/linux command prompt: "wget <whatever the LSL script sends>
[11:22]  Dev Random: so if you get a resonponse from the command prompt, b ut not from the script, it points to LSL, rules out firewall, etc
[11:22]  Andrew Hellershanks: I think I have tested that. l have to modify the PHP side to try it as the PHP side echo's posted data.
[11:22]  dan banner: you have the ExternalHostNameForLSL set?
[11:22]  Andrew Hellershanks: dan, yes.
[11:25]  Andrew Hellershanks: I used FIrefox on a server running OS instances and it gets the response from the PHP script.
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's a pitty that the lsl http isn't covered by the http loggng afaik
[11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: is there http debug in opesim for that part with lsl ?
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think Oren has extended it to that, though I could be wrong
[11:26]  dan banner: andrew you using llHTTPRequest?
[11:26]  Andrew Hellershanks: This is the first time I've tried to use the LSL/PHP combo since 0.6.9 and I have about 4 projects that I can't work on because of thise problem.
[11:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: dan, that is what I'm using.
[11:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: Outgoing data is fine. I use llHTTPRequest to log sales from my vendor.
[11:27]  dan banner: it worked in 0.8 about 3 weeks ago when i last checked
[11:28]  Andrew Hellershanks: It has not worked for me in quite a while. I can't use WinGridPRoxy to debug this as it is between an os instance and external website. I could try wireshark but I'm not used to using that program.
[11:28]  Dev Random: Andrew: maybe try something uber-simple that retrieves the google homepage or something? Just to test the simplest case of request/response in scripts.
[11:29]  Andrew Hellershanks: If I can find out where in the OS code the reply would be received I could add in extra debug stuff to see if it receives the reply
[11:29]  Andrew Hellershanks: My PHP code is one line. Can't get much simpler.
[11:29]  Dev Random: ha.. okay
[11:29]  UUID Speaker: David Hanowell: 6b536292-ecd9-4497-9e86-ca732b89685a
[11:30]  Primitive: 
[11:30]  Primitive: Error: NameResolutionFailure
[11:30]  Andrew Hellershanks: echo "I'm HandleSenderFunc.php:\n".$_POST['name']." is learning at ".$_POST['region'].".";
[11:30]  Andrew Hellershanks: That's all it is.
[11:30]  Primitive: 
[11:30]  Primitive:
[11:30]  Primitive:
[11:31]  Dev Random: I was thinking simplest LSL....
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:31]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          88f7a83: 2014-04-29 07:59:17 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:31]  Andrew Hellershanks: The LSL script works perfectly in Avination without modification.
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Dahlia
[11:31]  Dev Random: kk. I got nothing.
[11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[11:32]  Andrew Hellershanks: It doesn't even work on my Standalone.
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: is there a mantis for this?
[11:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: If I can't get this working soon I'll just have to open a mantis.
[11:33]  dan banner: you have the script handy?
[11:34]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, not yet. I was thinking it might just be some config change the "broke" it.
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe. I did do some work in the lslhttp area but I thought that was before 0.7.6
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: nonetheless, if something is broken that may well be a regression that needs to be looked at
[11:35]  Andrew Hellershanks: This was working for me in the last days of 0.6.9. I don't think I've ever tried it in 0.7.x until the last month or so.
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: But you say it worked in 0.7.6-pf?
[11:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. I'll see what I can find out from wireshark then mantis it if I don't get anywhere.
[11:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: No, it doesn't work on 076PF or git master.
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok. I would have thought some fundamental issue would have been flagged by someone else by now
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: UNless it got buried somewhere in our sea of bug reports :)
[11:37]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, which is why I figured it might just be an ini change that I don't know has to be set or changed.
[11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: i dont think many use the http stuff with lsl
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: I would have thought it's used as it's the primary way of communicating with external servers from scripts
[11:37]  Andrew Hellershanks: I use it to record sales from vendors. I also use it for devices that keep track of rentals (land and shops).
[11:37]  dan banner: i use a few scripts that do httprequest and have not had any issue with getting response
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: dan, are they still working?
[11:38]  dan banner: but mine probably arent trying the same
[11:38]  dan banner: yes
[11:38]  Dev Random: I have an object that calls out every day to see if my sim is out of date. retrieves current version number from osgrid site.
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: dan, Do you have a simple script I could try?
[11:38]  dan banner: mine just hit php script and display results
[11:39]  Andrew Hellershanks: dan, ok. That's about what I expected to see.
[11:41]  Andrew Hellershanks: I finished my major new project and have it out for sale in one grid. I'll have more time to dig in to this problem this week.
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, any other opensim topics people want to bring up today?
[11:42]  Dev Random: I still have terrain concerns...
[11:42]  Dev Random: but you're probably sicke of that topic
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but needs to be fixed :)
[11:42]  Dev Random: I noticed on the mailing list that compression=20 is being considered.
[11:42]  Dev Random: Compression=20 means 5cm resolution. Is that sufficient?
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: that was a minor brain fart - should be 200 I think
[11:43]  dan banner: ya would be nice if robert could get the multiple updates per packet stuff in before the release
[11:43]  vegaslon plutonian: ya that would be nice
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, though if we delayed for every fix we would never do a release
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: end up having to just cut it somewhere
[11:43]  dan banner: true
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I'm wrong, not 200
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I don't know if that resolution is too small, which is why I quested robert as to whether that was ok
[11:45]  Dev Random: anyway.. my question is about changing resolution with changes in compression. what's is the acceptable resolution
[11:46]  vegaslon plutonian: I would rather see the heightmap broke into 255 sections so teraforming would not overload the database on a big varregion
[11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: and terrain edit on var last time i tried where just workable
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: dev: yeah, I feel a float might ultimately be necessary
[11:47]  Dev Random: floats in memory makes sense.
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: and the appraoch to db storage improved - I think there's a lot of scrope for reducing the size there
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: scope
[11:48]  Dev Random: floats in memory gives you +/- 100km @ 1cm
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: you could also do the base + delta approach you described
[11:48]  Richardus Raymaker: and how much memory is used ? :O
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: just then you have to specify sutff on opensim console rather than in viewer
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is a pain
[11:49]  Dev Random: justin: that wreakes havoc when you terranform... I tried it...
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: or, for this release we accept that max terrain height is curtailed to 327...
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: dev: ah right
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: that wouldn't be a permanent change - but would be a problem for anybody with terrain at that height... not sure how many ppl would fall into that caregory
[11:50]  Dev Random: you'll know shortly after the release
[11:50]  Dev Random: heh
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's when I *don't* want to find out :)
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: dev: weren't you using that to notice the issue? Or were you just testing the boundaries?
[11:51]  Dev Random: I was just playing around.....noticed it was shorts, so tried to overflow them
[11:52]  Dev Random likes to say "overflowing shorts"
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, unfortunately you will probably reveal a lot of issue with such testing
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is very useful but kind of painful ;)
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: though that one was a recent change, not a historical issue
[11:53]  Dev Random: I did find a couple regions on OSG that are oustide the bounds though.
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: compression could be 50, which would mean a terrain resolutino of 2.5cm right?
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: that would still give a max height of 654 or so
[11:54]  Dev Random: sounds right to me
[11:56]  Dev Random: if you're considering floats for in-memory, and compression for DB... there's a terragen file loader that could be used for compression before persisting.
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah. right now I want the simplest solution - I just want to fix major regressions so we can get the first rc out for 0.8
[11:57]  Dev Random: understood.
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: so may end up being a compression factor of 50 and keep everything else as is
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: then something more sophiscated can be done for next release
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: Aren't we a bit too close to a new release to be looking at changing the format of  terrain data is how it is interpreted?
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I would personally like to avoid it if at all possible
[11:58]  Dev Random: yes..
[11:58]  Dev Random: *something* has to change though... the curent setup can't load LLRaw files completely.
[11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: ?
[11:59]  Dev Random: LLRaw goes to 512
[11:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: The part of raw files from SL that doesn't appear to be handled is some of the other layers such as the parcelling data, IIRC.
[12:00]  Dev Random: I don't think SL uses those channels anymore either... but the Blue/Green channels allo wfor 0-512m
[12:00]  Dev Random: * Red/ Green *
[12:01]  Dev Random: Red is height 0-255, Green is multiplier 0-2.
[12:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know the layers by a colour reference. I've seen the order of the layers by number.
[12:01]  Dev Random: point is .. 0-512 hshould work
[12:02]  Freaky.Tech is Online
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline
[12:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... an SL wiki says the format is reduced to only 3 layers (but they still want all 13)? I thought 4 was the minimum.
[12:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: It is a pain if you can't save parcel information.
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: i think sl raw files never saved parcel data
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: make oar
[12:04]  Dev Random: they did..
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: aha
[12:06]  Billy.Bradshaw do people see on occasion avatars that appearas their attachments only, and appear comple after a minute or so?
[12:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was loading oar files for a region parcelled in to 16 sections. Had to redo all the parcels.
[12:06]  Richardus Raymaker: sound like error in oar then
[12:06]  Billy.Bradshaw just a survey
[12:06]  dan banner: parcels save with oars for me
[12:07]  Dev Random: Billy: haven't noticed that.
[12:07]  dan banner: i have parcels in the sandbox oars and they load fine
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's a new one on me
[12:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: dan, try loading the oars.
[12:07]  Billy.Bradshaw thanks
[12:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: oars save parcel information separately from terrain raw files
[12:07]  dan banner: andrew: i do
[12:08]  Mata Hari: @Billy....far more often I see avi with *no* attachments (hair, etc) or untextured attachments and then it is often not for 5-10 minutes that they show up
[12:08]  Mata Hari: is related to the fetch/cloud issue I believe
[12:08]  dan banner: although i have not tried loading them on a region with a different owner, not sure if that would matter
[12:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, ok. I wanted the parcel data in the raw file. I didn't have an empty region from which to make an oar for loading on new regions.
[12:09]  Billy.Bradshaw Thanks Mata
[12:09]  Mata Hari: often it coincide with sim getting insanely laggy including up to 3 minutes lag in general chat
[12:09]  Mata Hari: region sim gets stuck in a fetch loop and won't do anything else until it finally times out (600sec I guess)
[12:10]  Billy.Bradshaw Something we are testing, and wanted some confirmation it is our changes.
[12:11]  Billy.Bradshaw thanks, bye for now
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go eat
[12:12]  Ogeywon Stromfield: hi all
[12:12]  Ogeywon Stromfield: it this over
[12:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:12]  dan banner: bye justin
[12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: it is for me, though other people might stick around
[12:13]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin.
[12:13]  Richardus Raymaker: leaveing to
[12:13]  Mata Hari: bye Justing
[12:13]  dan banner: ya i need to run too
[12:13]  Mata Hari: -g
[12:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks
[12:13]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dan
[12:13]  dan banner: bye folks
[12:13]  Mata Hari: I'm off too....have a great week all
[12:13]  Ogeywon Stromfield: Ok i guess it over
[12:13]  dan banner is Offline
[12:13]  Ogeywon Stromfield: chhers all\
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