Chat log from the meeting on 2014-01-14

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[10:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[10:59]  Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew
[11:00]  Freaky.Tech hi Andrew
[11:00]  Freaky.Tech hi Neb
[11:00]  Nebadon.Izumi hello
[11:00]  Sarah Kline is Online
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon
[11:00]  Sarah Kline: hi
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: there to many wright plaza's on the ma
[11:00]  Mircea Kitsune: hello
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: or the look with name the same lol
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: aha
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: hi master
[11:01]  Master Dubrovna: Hi Rich
[11:01]  Freaky.Tech hi Master
[11:01]  Nebadon.Izumi I only see one
[11:01]  Master Dubrovna: Hi Freaky
[11:01]  Master Dubrovna: Hi everyone
[11:01]  Master Dubrovna: :)
[11:01]  OtakuMegane Desu: There's only supposed to be one lol.
[11:01]  Nebadon.Izumi oh wait no i see it
[11:01]  Nebadon.Izumi i'll deal with it
[11:02]  dan banner: thats dahlia's
[11:02]  dan banner: test region
[11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I found three regions starting with the name Wright
[11:02]  Freaky.Tech hi Otaku , hi Mircea, hi Strachan
[11:02]  Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: its tricky, especially when your used to type wright and hit enter. btw the first one is out of range 65535,65535 :O
[11:02]  Nebadon.Izumi oh
[11:02]  Nebadon.Izumi its Dahlias
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: hi otaku
[11:03]  Nebadon.Izumi i guess it can stay
[11:03]  dan banner: yup
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: One of them was P1aza instead of Plaza.
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: hi mir
[11:03]  Nebadon.Izumi must be one of her test regions
[11:03]  Nebadon.Izumi i'll have her rename it
[11:03]  Nebadon.Izumi so there is less confusion
[11:03]  dan banner: good idea
[11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: yes
[11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: WP Test would be one possibility. Didn't confuse me as I saw the difference in the name righta way.
[11:04]  Vivian Klees is Online
[11:05]  Nebadon.Izumi ya I am sure she will show up here in a bit
[11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: I've gotten reports that IM voice chat stopped working after I upgraded a grid from 075 to 076
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, it works fine here andrew
[11:05]  Nebadon.Izumi nothing has changed with voice for a long time on opensims end
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: at least the last time i used it
[11:05]  Nebadon.Izumi Andrew didnt you come to realization that it was a viewer issue?
[11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: I also hear that it might work if the person who initiates the call is not using Singularity.
[11:05]  dan banner: voice working fine here
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: i use singularity
[11:06]  Mircea Kitsune: I don't hear any voice chat, although I see the white dots above avatars. Kokua x64 here
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: ok not here, but in opensim its main viewer normal
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: did you press the speak button ?
[11:06]  Freaky.Tech I keep mic off right now
[11:06]  Freaky.Tech hi Kayaker
[11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: I thought it might be an issue with Singularity but when i proposed that idea to those who have a problem but it didn't seem as if the viewer was the issue for them.
[11:07]  Freaky.Tech hi Vivian
[11:07]  Kayaker Magic: Hello!
[11:07]  Nebadon.Izumi heh ya me to, i got tired of people always saying they could hear me talking
[11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'll need to do more checking.
[11:07]  Nebadon.Izumi even when i didnt have mic enabled to talk
[11:07]  Vivian Klees: hello Freaky
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: hi kaya
[11:07]  Nebadon.Izumi so i dont even turn it on unless i absolutely need voice
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: i have like nebadon it default off
[11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was hearing someone in voice the other day who said their mic tends to turn on after a TP.
[11:08]  Nebadon.Izumi ya for me I dont even get any indication that I am talking
[11:08]  Nebadon.Izumi no green bars above head
[11:08]  Nebadon.Izumi but everyone can hear me apparantly
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: on 0.7.6 that works fine ofar i always have seen
[11:08]  Kayaker Magic: I am running on a Mac, and the mic keeps turning on all the time.
[11:08]  Kayaker Magic: Don't know if it is TP
[11:08]  Kayaker Magic: or if there is some key combination I hit
[11:08]  Freaky.Tech mine does disable on hardware so viewer cannot re-enable that ;)
[11:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hope you don't talk to yourself. You don't want to say something you don't want others to hear. ;)
[11:09]  Kayaker Magic: hehe
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: oh a mac.. buy a betetr pc :)) lol, i hear styill lots of problems with viewers and macs
[11:09]  Nebadon.Izumi most of the time people hear my televison or music or something lol
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe Freaky same here. line-in is routerd to something i turn off
[11:09]  Kayaker Magic: Voice on the Mac vieweres is spotty, sometime it works when I don't want it to, sometimes I cannot get it to work at all.
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: Not only voice, seems flash is wacky
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:10]  dan banner: hey justin
[11:10]  Freaky.Tech hi justin
[11:10]  Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:10]  Sarah Kline: hi Justin
[11:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin
[11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: hi arielle
[11:11]  Akira Sonoda: Huhu Justin
[11:11]  Freaky.Tech hi arielle
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: how is everyone today?
[11:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: This past week or so I started filing some of my bug reports
[11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: i think, its good question. to aks whats the status of 0.8 now. i seen lots of things hppend ?!
[11:12]  Arielle Popstar: Hi everyone :)
[11:12]  Freaky.Tech fine
[11:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, so far.
[11:12]  Andrew Hellershanks hopes he can get out for a walk after the meeting.
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: if you're talking about master, I believe neb still considers it broken due to a crash issue if one region crosses between regions on different simulators
[11:13]  Freaky.Tech Justin did you get ruthed?
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: I cam pre-ruthed, saves time
[11:13]  Nebadon.Izumi actually Robert fixed that I think
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: came
[11:14]  Vivian Klees: he's been drinking milk
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: i did not expect master as fixt
[11:14]  dan banner: ya was justa windows crash afaik
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: lol dan
[11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi still cant do a proper vehicle border cross, but the hard region crash has been fixed
[11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi now what happens is your vehcile goes across the border, but you loose controls
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: so, we're no better off than we were before :0
[11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi ya
[11:15]  Nebadon.Izumi so I think Master is relatively safe again for the moment
[11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: shame robert still soemwhere else. not sure whats more indevelopment now Var's or verhicles
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: marvellous
[11:15]  dan banner: baking after teleporting seems to have improved
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: from before december?
[11:15]  dan banner: yes
[11:15]  Vivian Klees: yes
[11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: hee viv
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool. I see you had that bug about a cycle of rebaking though?
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: though tbh, I think that was happening sometimes before
[11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I spoke with Robert via Skype briefly about an issue I noticed. He said he was working on varregions.
[11:16]  dan banner: ya theres a few issues with certain avatars
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: So less clouds with latest master ?
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie did put in a robust sevice for server side baking as well
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: k andrew
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: though I haven't looked at any of that code as of yet
[11:16]  dan banner: 900 mb log files can become problematic
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have one person telling me their avatar can't set home to hear anywhere in a grid.
[11:16]  Vivian Klees: yes Rich since Mel's patch
[11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:17]  Arielle Popstar: i see that issue Andrew
[11:17]  Nebadon.Izumi might just need to have them enable admin Andrew
[11:17]  Nebadon.Izumi ctrl+alt+v
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Vivian Klees: he's been drinking milk
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: i did not expect master as fixt
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  dan banner: ya was justa windows crash afaik
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: lol dan
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi still cant do a proper vehicle border cross, but the hard region crash has been fixed
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi now what happens is your vehcile goes across the border, but you loose controls
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: so, we're no better off than we were before :0
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:14]  Nebadon.Izumi ya
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Nebadon.Izumi so I think Master is relatively safe again for the moment
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: shame robert still soemwhere else. not sure whats more indevelopment now Var's or verhicles
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: marvellous
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  dan banner: baking after teleporting seems to have improved
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: from before december?
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  dan banner: yes
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Vivian Klees: yes
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: hee viv
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: cool. I see you had that bug about a cycle of rebaking though?
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: though tbh, I think that was happening sometimes before
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I spoke with Robert via Skype briefly about an issue I noticed. He said he was working on varregions.
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  dan banner: ya theres a few issues with certain avatars
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: So less clouds with latest master ?
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: melanie did put in a robust sevice for server side baking as well
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: k andrew
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: though I haven't looked at any of that code as of yet
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  dan banner: 900 mb log files can become problematic
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have one person telling me their avatar can't set home to hear anywhere in a grid.
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Vivian Klees: yes Rich since Mel's patch
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:17]  Arielle Popstar: i see that issue Andrew
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:17]  Nebadon.Izumi might just need to have them enable admin Andrew
[11:21]  [2014/01/14 11:17]  Nebadon.Izumi ctrl+alt+v
[11:21]  Nebadon.Izumi well that sucked
[11:21]  Nebadon.Izumi heh
[11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: ding ding , round 2
[11:21]  dan banner: yup
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[11:21]  Nebadon.Izumi give everyone a minute to get back
[11:22]  Nebadon.Izumi at least it came back fast
[11:22]  Mandarinka Tasty: Hi Everyone
[11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: well, thats longtime ago
[11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: hello madarinka
[11:22]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, good idea about admin mode. i'll pass it along although the user doesn't have the issue with their alt.
[11:22]  Mircea Kitsune: WB
[11:22]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was first one back. :)
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[11:23]  Arielle Popstar: means you were the first to crash :)
[11:23]  Nebadon.Izumi welcome back everyone, sorry about that
[11:23]  Richardus Raymaker: aha  arielle rezzed this round
[11:23]  Nebadon.Izumi region crashed with a very useless stacktrace message that told us nothing
[11:24]  Sarah Kline is Online
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi anyway, Andrew as I was saying as I crashed
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi also I think there are hard rules for setting home
[11:24]  Arielle Popstar: eek think i must have been ruthed
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi you might just need to have that person do ctrl+alt+v
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi you can only set home to a region you own
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi or a parcel you own
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi or group land that has that allowed for group members
[11:24]  dan banner: sometimes setting home can fail if theres a bad GridUser entry too
[11:24]  Nebadon.Izumi otherwise you cant set home
[11:24]  Richardus Raymaker: I where writing, i heared people where haveing problems with 0.7.6 to with save home.
[11:25]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, I know there are flags that allow whether home can be set in a region or not.
[11:25]  Arielle Popstar: i own the region i was setting home on but still wasnt persisting Justin
[11:25]  Kayaker Magic: That is an SL restriction, I thought here you could set home to anywhere!
[11:25]  dan banner: ari: check your GridUser tables
[11:25]  Nebadon.Izumi for a long time you could set it anywhere
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: urgh, got to fix that GridUser stuff
[11:25]  Nebadon.Izumi but I think that was considered an incomplete feature
[11:25]  Nebadon.Izumi was not by design
[11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: whats wrong with the griduser stuff ?
[11:25]  Arielle Popstar: check for?
[11:26]  dan banner: ari: select * from GridUser where UserID LIKE '';
[11:26]  dan banner: like so
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think in hg cases, it can get a bad entry which causes issues for other systems
[11:26]  dan banner: or whatever your dyndns name is
[11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: hgmm, ok thats not so good news
[11:27]  Arielle Popstar: thats in the database or the console Dan?
[11:27]  dan banner: database
[11:27]  Arielle Popstar: ok
[11:27]  dan banner: i clear ours of bad entries all the time
[11:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ok. I thought a person could set home to here unless the land didn't allow it. I'll do more checking with the person.
[11:27]  Arielle Popstar: been a problem for about 4-5 months
[11:27]  dan banner: also bad Friends too
[11:27]  dan banner: ari: yes
[11:28]  Nebadon.Izumi I think there is a region flag some where that lets you set your region to a Hub
[11:28]  dan banner: 4-5 months is about right
[11:28]  Nebadon.Izumi those regions can also allow anyone to set home I think
[11:28]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:28]  Nebadon.Izumi kind of like the LL train stations / Welcome areas
[11:28]  dan banner: ya setting up a telehub allows anyone to set home
[11:28]  Arielle Popstar: i defo have a bad friend issue with Mika. I jump to her grid and get spammed with 70 friend requests
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: wow
[11:29]  dan banner: ari: the tables need cleaning
[11:29]  Mircea Kitsune: Anyone know if it's safe to use latest GIT here on OSGrid? Last time there was talk about some login / teleport issues with Firestorm
[11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:29]  Fearghus McMahon: hi all
[11:29]  Mandarinka Tasty: I am first time here ) I'd like to ask whether there is certain order of the meeting or such brainstorming ? Nice to meet You All )
[11:29]  Arielle Popstar: no real idea on how to do that. I likely would clean everything if i was let loose in there
[11:29]  dan banner: mircea: we are running latest git here
[11:29]  Mircea Kitsune: Ok, good then
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's a brainstorming meeting, no formal agenda as long as it's related to opensimulator
[11:30]  Mandarinka Tasty smiles ok )
[11:30]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          239b85d: 2014-01-10 22:52:31 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: hi feargus
[11:31]  Fearghus McMahon: heya Richardus
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensimulator topics today?
[11:32]  Kayaker Magic: I'm trying to use Mega Regions lately
[11:32]  Kayaker Magic: and having a terrible time.
[11:32]  Mandarinka Tasty: today i ahve upgraded os s\to last version that has been released 10-th of jan , i use Firestorm 4.5.1 (38838) and i stil experience problems with complete loading of my inventory, i mean specific folder that contains "links" to system viewer AO, can't be laoded in my regions. what is the probklem if anyone knows ? when i log in Plazas regions i am ok , all works
[11:32]  Arielle Popstar: when is varregion stuff going to be merged fully?
[11:32]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin, I saw you asking about the particle size limit in the bug report I filed. I haven't verified the size of the effect in SL yet.
[11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: yeah, var in master would make things a bit more easy
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I'm assuming it probably just does the permitted max, I was being a bit pedantic tbh
[11:33]  Freaky.Tech is Online
[11:33]  Richardus Raymaker: what size limit you mean andrew ?
[11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: particle size limit?
[11:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I figure SL is clamping size to max. I'm surprised that OS actually prevents particle gen if size exceeds the limit.
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: anything in particular? I know there are a lot of bugs - seems less of a priority now if var regions are going to come along
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielles: that's up to robert, I think
[11:33]  Arielle Popstar: (Thank you Dan)
[11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: I think the limit is 4 meters
[11:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: The SL docs for llParticleSystem state a maximum particle size of 4m in either X or Y
[11:34]  Andrew Hellershanks: If you exceed that in OS, you get no particles at all.
[11:34]  Arielle Popstar: well i wish he would at least provide a binary release for his branch
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: I think that's certainly a bug - os should do the same as sl
[11:34]  Kayaker Magic: I asked a few weeks ago if mega regions are depricated, 'cause lots of LSL frunctions DON"T WORK there. Justin said not depricated yet...
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: well, it's in a branch partly because it's experimental
[11:34]  dan banner: ari: its not too hard to get the source with git
[11:34]  Nebadon.Izumi Mega regions will likely not ever be deprecated
[11:35]  Richardus Raymaker: almost finsihed with new website layout. and fixing some errors. later i can add new stuff. then i can look in new things
[11:35]  Kayaker Magic: See mantis 6596, 6923, 4409
[11:35]  Nebadon.Izumi but, many LSL functions will just never work right in Megas
[11:35]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: yes, not deprecated. Just no-one has worked on it or put in an accpetable patch
[11:35]  Kayaker Magic: How can you be depricated when you don't work?
[11:35]  Arielle Popstar: yes well my ability to test it is limited by my ability to figure out github
[11:35]  Nebadon.Izumi I am not sure some of the LSL functions could ever be made to work in mega-regions
[11:35]  Nebadon.Izumi like the terrain events
[11:35]  Nebadon.Izumi its unlikely those could be made to work
[11:35]  Freaky.Tech Since the last two OSG versions I am experiencing added items quite commonly with the description "Failed Wearable Replacement"
[11:36]  OtakuMegane Desu: Megaregions I think will remain as an option for those who want them. Just once varregions are set, a lot of people won't have need of megas any more.
[11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: why would you spemnd time in mega's when betetr var regions are on the horizon. and especially with resources is ver much betetr
[11:36]  Freaky.Tech however, they get added to the body parts
[11:36]  Freaky.Tech and are quite commonly unwearable
[11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: cant find a reason in what a var would be bad btw
[11:36]  Nebadon.Izumi well vars are pretty far from ready to be used right now too
[11:36]  Arielle Popstar: var regions dont answer everything megas do
[11:36]  Mandarinka Tasty: anyone knows why my folder with links to the animations can';t be enough loaded in my regions ? i use Firestorm
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: these may be new bugs
[11:36]  Nebadon.Izumi like what Arielle?
[11:36]  Freaky.Tech I think so too
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: mandarinka: I don't know
[11:37]  Freaky.Tech mostly related to the versions starting from Jan 08 2014
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: this is the problem with a whole laod of code just being dumped in
[11:37]  Freaky.Tech on OSG page
[11:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: I think megas are a bit more flexible on "shape" but otherwise I can't personally thinkof an advantage.
[11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: Mandarinka. first check your viewer bandwidth and try a lower setting
[11:37]  dan banner: my test var does everything a mega can do and more
[11:37]  Freaky.Tech I looked like that anyways justin
[11:37]  Freaky.Tech being dumpen in
[11:37]  Nebadon.Izumi non sqare megas are very problematic
[11:37]  Arielle Popstar: i thought of a couple things the other day but forggot what they wee atm.
[11:37]  Freaky.Tech dumpen = dumped
[11:38]  Mandarinka Tasty: but richard, all works in plazas, , but not in my regions that's wy i ask :)
[11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: megas work with any viewer
[11:38]  Arielle Popstar: were^
[11:38]  Nebadon.Izumi ya that is true Dahlia
[11:38]  Arielle Popstar: yes that for starters
[11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: plaz'a have more bandwidth then maby typour own region
[11:38]  Kayaker Magic: If you make a mega that is all water, or all flat land then boats and cars work great.
[11:38]  Nebadon.Izumi im sure most of the TPVs will pick up proper ar support by the time varregions are useable
[11:38]  Nebadon.Izumi proper var support that is
[11:38]  Kayaker Magic: But add terrain, and llGround (among others) prevents anything from working right in a mega
[11:39]  OtakuMegane Desu: TPVs have gotten fairly good recently about keeping up with opensim stuff
[11:39]  Nebadon.Izumi yes, Kayaker those will likely never work
[11:39]  Nebadon.Izumi because of how megas are structured
[11:39]  Nebadon.Izumi the terrain is not actually in the region your being faked to be in
[11:39]  Nebadon.Izumi I just dont think there is any sane solution to that
[11:39]  dan banner: ground really isnt ground beyond 256 in a mega
[11:39]  Arielle Popstar: and varregions only will work for bullet
[11:39]  Fearghus McMahon: if you need to load full inventory going to the plaza's is generally best idea,,,they are closer to the source then private least my region is at least an ocean apart from the asset servers ;)
[11:39]  Arielle Popstar: unless someoene fixes it for oode
[11:40]  Nebadon.Izumi Fearghus is your region behind a router?
[11:40]  Nebadon.Izumi like a home based router?
[11:40]  Nebadon.Izumi the one having inventory trouble?
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: teravus did practically all the megaregion stuff but hasn't been around for some time
[11:40]  Nebadon.Izumi or whoever is having inventory trouble
[11:40]  Nebadon.Izumi Teravus is around, but he isnt working on opensim much
[11:40]  OtakuMegane Desu: Megaregions are effectively a kludge meant to deal with viewers not handling different sizes than 256 and something like varregions was not even on the horizon.
[11:40]  Fearghus McMahon: No I'm not having inventory problem...for me it is just quicker to load on plaza's then on my region....but as far as i know thats common
[11:41]  Arielle Popstar: it is Fearghus
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: a very clever kludge :)
[11:41]  Arielle Popstar: common
[11:41]  Nebadon.Izumi ya if your region is behind a home router, it could be overwhelemd by something like inventory
[11:41]  Freaky.Tech the only thing I see is that the avatar factory module tends to add items occasionally
[11:41]  Freaky.Tech with description "Failed wearable replacement"
[11:41]  Arielle Popstar: its not overwhelmed in s/l Neb
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: the problem with megas is nobody helped with development
[11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: a bit stuck between normals var's and mega's normals work bets with terrrain edit. and the other 2 is betetr for the verhicle stuff i want. so add the end you cant test much right now
[11:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yes, it is a good kludge, but once varregions are finished and there is wide viewer support they will have very little purpose left.
[11:42]  Nebadon.Izumi thats because SL is not hosted in someones house behind a non commercial router Arielle
[11:42]  Nebadon.Izumi lol
[11:42]  dan banner: ari: sl regions have good connections
[11:42]  Fearghus McMahon: ooo that reminds me richardus.....there was also work done on vehicle region crossing right?
[11:42]  Arielle Popstar: the probleem is random making me suspect database or cache
[11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: Fearghus, there's work on so many things
[11:43]  Fearghus McMahon: lol...true true :)
[11:43]  Dahlia Trimble: I suspect there are some LSL functionw that wont work in varregions either, and to make them work will alter them from the way they work in SL
[11:43]  Mandarinka Tasty: i was observing logs when i was experiencing problems with popualting of my inv in my regions and i got such message: WARNING: newview/aoengine.cpp(1455) : AOEngine::tick: AO basic folder Ad it apepars only when my aniamtions links can't be loaded into the viewer invnetory
[11:43]  OtakuMegane Desu: Which is good. Opensim has been getting much attention the last year or so.
[11:43]  Nebadon.Izumi Fearghus there is work being done on vehcile crossing but it doesnt work yet
[11:43]  Kayaker Magic: Vehicle region crossing, even in places that do it like Avination and InWorldz, is a mixed blessing.
[11:43]  Fearghus McMahon: ah need to be patient some more :)
[11:43]  Kayaker Magic: There are often glitches on crossings, and a good chance of crashing.
[11:44]  Arielle Popstar: try singularity Mandarinka
[11:44]  Nebadon.Izumi yes, in a grid like OSgrid your never like going to be able to have 100% success like flying or driving across the grid
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: yes, so I don't expect code coming into OpenSimulator is suddenly going to make everything amazing
[11:44]  Kayaker Magic: Megaregions at least were smooth for a square area up to 4x4 regions.
[11:44]  Nebadon.Izumi latency and distance between regions in physical world can have a huge factor
[11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: i hope there's later some easy way to convert a pile of normal regions to var size. for now its the megaregion step. i would build things for now first with normal regions and convert it later to var
[11:44]  Mandarinka Tasty: yes Arielle, but i want Firestorm work )
[11:44]  Nebadon.Izumi driving from one region to another when there is a 300ms delay is going to be nasty
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: wel,l, that's where the single grid model breaks down
[11:45]  Kayaker Magic: I only want crossings on the regions on my server, so mega regions seemed a reasonable comprimize
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: Kayaker, its also still a blessing in SL if you can cross a simborder. but thats more some mono bug there sofar i know
[11:45]  Nebadon.Izumi ya that should do reasonably well
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: you just can't do that kind of thing. But then, stuff doesn't work even if everything is on the same lan
[11:45]  OtakuMegane Desu: Converting normal regions to var I think may be very hard. Megaregions, the regions still exist, they're just tied together. Varregions are a single one, so somehow you'd have to import everything from the others into it.
[11:45]  Arielle Popstar: do a 10x10 mega
[11:45]  Nebadon.Izumi well I just meant even if the opensim code was perfet
[11:45]  Nebadon.Izumi the internet is far from perfect hehe
[11:45]  Arielle Popstar: they work fine
[11:45]  dan banner: neb made a var oar of his UCI oar i think
[11:46]  Nebadon.Izumi yes its very easy to convert Megas to Var
[11:46]  Freaky.Tech UDP packets do not have all the same latency on the internet
[11:46]  Andrew Hellershanks: I see minor issues when just running in standalone mode.
[11:46]  Arielle Popstar: wioth the scene code Dalia put in it is possible
[11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: normal -< mega -> var sofar i know
[11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: one problem with crossing in SL is so many avatera have a bazillion scripts in each attachment prim
[11:47]  Nebadon.Izumi wouldnt be a party without 500 bling scripts
[11:47]  dan banner: lol
[11:47]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe,
[11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: it takes a long time to transfer a script, and when you have a lot, poof :(
[11:47]  Arielle Popstar: we need more bling in opensim
[11:48]  Dahlia Trimble sells blingie thingies in SL
[11:48]  Arielle Popstar: ahh there is the problem ;)
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: how well do they sell?
[11:48]  Nebadon.Izumi what we need to help improve that I think is have each avatar have their own script domains
[11:48]  Kayaker Magic: Is Tiffany or Logger here? I identified a problem on one of their Xmas SIMs: 300 blinking light scripts all using llSleep() for timing.
[11:48]  Dahlia Trimble: not well anymore :(
[11:48]  Nebadon.Izumi would help in running under mono anyway I think
[11:48]  dan banner: llsleep is bad
[11:49]  Kayaker Magic: bad bad bad
[11:49]  Freaky.Tech llSleep is good for having a script running bad
[11:49]  Kayaker Magic: and any other function that has a built in delay.
[11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: i where thinking that scripts would be betetr run on avatars if the run on own 'script' server. so you dont need to transfer them. but its not how opensim works
[11:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker: Really?
[11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: dont use llSleep :P
[11:49]  Nebadon.Izumi heh ya
[11:49]  Nebadon.Izumi I wish we could make better use of sleeps
[11:49]  Kayaker Magic: Yes, even llSetLinkPrimParam (without the Fast)
[11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: use timers
[11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: in opensim sleep is bad
[11:49]  Fearghus McMahon: you can use llSleep when yer llDead
[11:49]  Nebadon.Izumi makes it pretty difficult to script things easily
[11:50]  Freaky.Tech Dahlia I do not like llSleep it just keeps the scripts from reacting
[11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: in sl i dont see much impact because microthreadign
[11:50]  Arielle Popstar: too many Unknown UserUMMAU4 here. Have to use bubble chat
[11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks: I've used it when I want a short delay in a script. Easier than trying to deal with using timer event and setting up a state machine to know when you can do the next set of steps or go back to top of a loop.
[11:50]  Arielle Popstar: that ever going to be fixable?
[11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: short delay is not so bad
[11:50]  Nebadon.Izumi I havent seen one of those in a long time
[11:50]  dan banner: i dont see any UU
[11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: but a long one
[11:50]  Nebadon.Izumi since like right after OSCC
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think for llSleep you would need a different script engine approach
[11:50]  Kayaker Magic: Timer also has a 0.5 second resolution.
[11:50]  Nebadon.Izumi i havent seen those UMMs
[11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe even one which interprets scripts rather than compiles them to c#
[11:51]  dan banner: kayaker: MinTimerInterval = 0.08
[11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: the script engine is heavily threaded :(
[11:51]  Arielle Popstar: Neb and Rira for starters
[11:51]  dan banner: is what i use
[11:51]  Richardus Raymaker: sure its 0.5 ? i think in the past i still saw difference between 0.5 and 0.2 but lower did not do much
[11:51]  Freaky.Tech I do see them depending on whether some inventory items actually managed to precache those entries
[11:51]  Kayaker Magic: default mintimerinterval is 0.50
[11:51]  Andrew Hellershanks: why does llSleep cause so much problem?
[11:51]  Freaky.Tech but that happens more commonly with Singularity
[11:51]  Kayaker Magic: If you don't own the server, you have to assume 0.50
[11:51]  dan banner: ya the default is too high
[11:51]  Nebadon.Izumi because of how xengine handles threading
[11:51]  Nebadon.Izumi llsleep eats the thread
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: nom nom nom ummmm threads nom
[11:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: It doesn't just put the thread to sleep?
[11:52]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, then you can't use that thread for anything else
[11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi what ends up happening is any script that uses llsleep runs the risk of becoming a hung thread
[11:52]  Kayaker Magic: so 300 blinking lights locked up all the threads in a SIM and scripts all ground to a halt
[11:52]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yummy thread. Give moar plox.
[11:52]  Nebadon.Izumi and they pretty much never recover
[11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: andrew, then still you cant use the thread
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: I think it uses a threadpool but I dont know all the details of the script engine
[11:53]  Freaky.Tech good for eating performance of a sim too I think
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: and xengine only has a single thread dispatching events, afair
[11:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: Just one thread for all the scripts in a parcel, or just one thread that is determining what scripts get run?
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: in theory, with a threadpool, a sleeping task will yield to another task
[11:53]  Nebadon.Izumi maybe if AppDomain worked better so would llSleep
[11:53]  Kayaker Magic: For Xmas next year I am going to give the OpenSim community a blinking light script that works here.
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: but not sure why it fails
[11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: wouldn't make a difference
[11:53]  Nebadon.Izumi under mono all scripts share the same app domain
[11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: i hope we have a working 0.8 then to :)
[11:54]  Nebadon.Izumi I recall someone saying that in SL
[11:54]  Nebadon.Izumi each script has its own app domain
[11:54]  Nebadon.Izumi occasionally they flush and refresh all app domains
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but that doesn't make any difference to threading
[11:54]  Nebadon.Izumi to clear out hung and dead stuff
[11:54]  Fearghus McMahon: does the scriptegine inworldz use have the same issues?....they no longer use xengine right?
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: honestly, I think having an interpreting scriptengine would be more interesting
[11:54]  Richardus Raymaker: whats SL useing ?
[11:55]  Nebadon.Izumi no idea Fearghus, Inworldz doesnt share their source code
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: so on an llSleep, you could save the event state and do some other work until the llSleep has elapsed
[11:55]  Nebadon.Izumi Richardus LL is using mono
[11:55]  Fearghus McMahon: yeah it's a real pitty they don't
[11:55]  Kayaker Magic: InWorldz wrote their onw script engine,
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: kayaker, leave an NC for me in my mailbox at the main landing area. I'll look in to the script issue.
[11:55]  Arielle Popstar: btw any headway on the blank page issue on signin for the opensimulator wiki pages?
[11:55]  Richardus Raymaker: yes, so it compiles first before its running. like OS do
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: nobody answered on the mailing list with the info requested
[11:55]  Nebadon.Izumi Arielle, no, I cant really fix something i cant experience
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: An LSL interpreter would be interesting.
[11:56]  Arielle Popstar: you want a screenshot of a blank page?
[11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: yes andrew, but whats the impact with speed ?
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: no, the html given. Which may be blank or not
[11:56]  Kayaker Magic: New script engine? A nice thought but a big project.
[11:56]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, Can be high.
[11:56]  Freaky.Tech interpreters tend to be slower, other languages actually transform their scripts into some kind of byte code
[11:56]  Arielle Popstar: you want to use my account to experience it?
[11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: maby with intrepeter you can betetr micro threading to ?
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: yes
[11:56]  Freaky.Tech which is just about to bee tokenization
[11:56]  Freaky.Tech instead of actual compilation
[11:56]  Arielle Popstar: i'll give you my password and you can try it
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: actually, that would also be good
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: Unknown, that is how a Pascal system worked. Used an intermediate bytecode.
[11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: loves pascal
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: yes. Ideally, you would just use .net bytecode but a program doesn't hav enough control over the vm
[11:57]  Kayaker Magic: everybody uses some intermediate bytecode, p-code, whatever.
[11:57]  Freaky.Tech In fact you already do
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: it does sound odd to be using some other bytecode within a .net program which itself is bytecode
[11:57]  Freaky.Tech that is what the mono c# runtime compiler does
[11:58]  Freaky.Tech and the dotNET one
[11:58]  Kayaker Magic: Moores law: The more transistors you can pack into a chip, the bigger and fatter software aps get.
[11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: that dont mean the get fatser and betetr
[11:58]  Freaky.Tech so true look at those increasing size windows versions
[11:58]  dan banner: its NSA code bloat
[11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks grins
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: ok, I get a blank page too. Thanks. If you could avoid changing your pw for now I can investigate when I get a chance
[11:58]  Arielle Popstar: ok
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: there is no html generated
[11:59]  Arielle Popstar: no way for me to change it since i get blank page :)
[11:59]  dan banner: lol
[11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: if you use script intrepeter could it be run as own server thats running outside the region ?
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: heh, true
[12:00]  Freaky.Tech rich the problem will be communications since the state would be communicated all the time
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: sure. A very long time ago I think Adam's employees were looking at that but I don't think they ever got very far
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, comms between processes then becomes a factor
[12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: eeps, forgot that one
[12:00]  Freaky.Tech and it adds latency
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: I'd like to see an external script engine interface but I have no time to work on such a thing
[12:00]  Freaky.Tech and process switching effects
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: where the script engine could run in a separate process, or another machine
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: did you change the appearance skin on your login?
[12:02]  Freaky.Tech actually when going through several parts of opensim I saw a lot of mutexes; those tend to generate lag and reduce scalability on multi-core platforms
[12:02]  Arielle Popstar: no
[12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: btw, llSleep() calls Sleep(). Sleep() is also called (via ScirptSleep()) any time an LSL function has a delay in it.
[12:02]  Arielle Popstar: at least not intentionally
[12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: people hate mutexes but they are essential to avoid race conditions in opensim
[12:03]  Kayaker Magic: Yes andrew, that makes all those delayed functions poison in OpenSim
[12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, you mean "lock"s? OpenSim is heavily threaded
[12:03]  Freaky.Tech threaded with mutexes everywhere
[12:03]  Freaky.Tech especially in the networking code
[12:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, and they are some commonly used functions too.
[12:03]  Kayaker Magic: There are a fixed number of threads for the script engine, and 300 scripts all calling sleep can lock them all up.
[12:03]  Freaky.Tech that means the threads may also go and wait for others at crucial places due to mutexes
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: Kayaker, there is a threadpool
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: Kayaker. SL have delays on scripts to. only maby different impact
[12:04]  Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, if you find a possible deadlock, please mantis it :)
[12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: I like playing with parsers but I don't feel like tackling an interpreted LSL engine.
[12:05]  Freaky.Tech I do not talk about dead locks I am talking about unpredictable temporary effects of overly relying on mutexes everywhere
[12:05]  Kayaker Magic: yup, SL must use a different approach.
[12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: or a new compiled LSL engine.
[12:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: No time for a start.
[12:06]  Mandarinka Tasty: The default delay between events is 0.022 seconds (one simulator frame)
[12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: well you need locks with shared data structures in a multithreaded application
[12:06]  Richardus Raymaker: still scripts work fine for now. most painfull problem are sensors for me with physics etc. prefefr a god working base first so i can do soemthing again
[12:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: freaky: and what alternative do you have to mutexes?
[12:06]  Vivian Klees is Offline
[12:06]  Dahlia Trimble: and rewriting opensim to run single threaded would be.... impossible
[12:06]  Freaky.Tech but what you do loose when talking about multithreaded is that you did not think about multi-core by same-time processing
[12:07]  Richardus Raymaker: opensim sinbgle threaded. eeps
[12:07]  Freaky.Tech start to use message processing on parts like inventory accesses
[12:07]  Freaky.Tech that allows to leverage multi-cores a lot more
[12:07]  Dahlia Trimble: Freaky, "patches are welcome" :)
[12:07]  dan banner: opensim isnt always run on multi-core machines
[12:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: I should make a T-short with that on it.
[12:08]  Richardus Raymaker: Like freaky it says explains why more simulators seems to work betetr then 1 simulator with more regions
[12:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: s/short/shirt/
[12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: ok, your login works again. I have removed the cologne=blue skin since it's broken with this version of mediawiki and there's no point me spending time trying to fix it
[12:08]  Freaky.Tech those things also perform better on single cores due to reducing priority inversions and things like that
[12:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: particularly if you weren't even aware that you wer eusing it
[12:08]  Arielle Popstar: ok Justin, ty
[12:08]  Freaky.Tech however, those are not just patches since some places of the code would actually require a very large reorganization for that
[12:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and do some work. Thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:09]  Dahlia Trimble: bye jcc
[12:09]  Kayaker Magic: Everyone back to the code mines.
[12:09]  Fearghus McMahon: how about a freeze on opensim code, and first all work on virtualization of the brains of all the devs? ;)
[12:10]  Freaky.Tech bye justin
[12:10]  dan banner: tc justin
[12:10]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:10]  Sarah Kline: byes
[12:10]  Fearghus McMahon: take care justin
[12:10]  Richardus Raymaker: Kayaker mines or mines like minefield ? :O
[12:10]  Justin Clark-Casey waves
[12:10]  Kayaker Magic: The place we dig the working code out of.
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