Chat log from the meeting on 2013-11-05

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[11:00]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi
[11:00]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi ArieAnna
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone :)
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: last seat. must be bluewall ?
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi nebadon
[11:00]  ArieAnna.Winterborn @logicamp.dyndns.org:8002: everyone is invisible, or somewhere else. ol
[11:00]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi Vivian
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: oh no its vivian. hi vivian
[11:01]  Vivian Klees: hello
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: upstairs ArieAnna
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: well, neadon. my world is alread upside down before is terted. lol things go fats in development
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:01]  Richardus Raymaker: vars can solve lots of headaces
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: just created 36 ini files. and still need todo  around 20 ini simulator files. well. 90 degree starboard and changeing plans
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: btw, it seems bullet + oar crash 0.7.6 on my system
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a 9 region simulator i want to convert to var
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: not all btw.
[11:03]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: looks like HG visitors are going to outnumber here ;)
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: ODE can have similiar issues loading large oars
[11:03]  Vivian Klees: UCI?
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: best to put it on basic physics and disable xengine until oar loads
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: i made a design. and cant do it smaller then 6x6 :O i need water and enough land for all verhicles and flying
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon. how can you change physics withoyt shutting regions down ? its all automated
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: Vivian i would definitely like to convert Universal Campus to a var version as well
[11:04]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i didn't knew that nebadon
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be awesome
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: anything that is already a mega is easy to convert
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: Richardus you cant you need to restart it
[11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: No nebadon. if you still need to start from scratch is easy
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ya if your switching from say a 9 region simulator (Non-Mega) to Varregion
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: you are probably going to have to first convert it to a mega-region
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: then save an oar as mega-region
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: lucky i keeped the design in megaregion requirements. tahts why i get 6x6
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: then load that oar into a varregion
[11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hi jusrtin
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:05]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi
[11:05]  ArieAnna.Winterborn @logicamp.dyndns.org:8002: Hello
[11:05]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi justin
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: well for now on 0.7.6 i switched back to ode nebadon. oh does opensim not have console command to check what physics is used ? saves some headaces with config errors
[11:06]  Vivian Klees: how to differentiate a var enabled region from non-var on map
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: you probably wont be able to via the map
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: vivian. om without maptile visible hard. with maptile easy to see
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: to be honest im not even sure if we will be able to have var regions on OSgrid
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: config show Startup would effectively show which physics engine was configured
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: because you only have 1 region name i guess
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: I Think robert said Var regions will need to basically be isolated
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: can you put a normal region next to a var ?
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: cant have neighbors
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: they may work on OSgrid but they will be pretty much isolated
[11:07]  Vivian Klees: yes that could create a problem for grids
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: ok. well its like mega.. then i kepe that in mind. think also not good to use var as welcome region
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: but who knows how teleports will work and such
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: teleporting beyond 256m may not actually be possible
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: no idea
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine it means changes on the viewer side for that kind of thing
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: there will likely be a bunch of gotchas
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: lol. its long way swimming to mainland nebadon :)
[11:08]  Cuteulala Artis is Offline
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: has robert said anything about how one would tell the grid manager not to allow overlapping regions?
[11:08]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: :D
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: well its just 1 region
[11:08]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: especially what they think about how big a sim is
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: so im not really sure it would actually overlap
[11:09]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: those viewers
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: you dont actually use multiple region coordinates I dont think
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: that would kind of defeat the purpose
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: well as soon i know how and where to download it i like to test it as standalone first.
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: so how would they show up on map?
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: how would that defeat the purpose?
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: probably as a 256x256 cell
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm.
[11:09]  Robert Adams is Online
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: well here he comes
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi whispers: lets ask him and not speculate :)
[11:09]  Vivian Klees: ah the guy that can answer
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: by the pricking of my thumbs
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: why ot generate the extra maptiles to show the otehr coordinates ?
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: hi robert
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: do you really want to have to lock down 50 sets of coordiantes
[11:10]  Robert Adams: hello all
[11:10]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi robert
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: i sure dont that makes setting them up very difficult
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: 50 ? you start to think big neb ! :)
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: locking down blocks of 256*256 would be easiest
[11:11]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I guess that would stop other things
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert
[11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: yes thats what i mean. but then you still can generate the maptiles to show the full size
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: so maybe you can explain to us a little bit how varregions work
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: with the coordinates and such
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: will it be grid mode compatible
[11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: i hpe it works in robust grid otehrwise i hav eproblem
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: will say a 768x768 varregion actually take up 9 256x256 cells on the map?
[11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: thats ho i would show it on map
[11:13]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i like to fly :D
[11:13]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: lost connection?
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: only bullet need to handle then 330K porims withoyt getting crazy
[11:13]  Robert Adams: teleports are going to take some work... EntityTransferModule is packed with references to the fixed region size
[11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: i thought that might be the case
[11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks is Offline
[11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:14]  Robert Adams: Once I have terrain saving and restoring, that is my next area to attack
[11:14]  Robert Adams: seems there is a lot of code doing 'sanity checking' to the constant region size
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: how would variable regions show up on the grid map?
[11:14]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: sounds like legacy within code to me
[11:15]  Robert Adams: most of the viewers loose it with over 130K prims or so
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya 32 bit viewers anyway
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i was able to get 1 million in 64 bit
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: but its absolutely terrible performance
[11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: 350k is really pushing it
[11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm. but why would viewers tryu to load all prims. also the one sthat are out of range ?
[11:16]  Robert Adams: well, maps are after that... I am not going to do anything for adjacent regions -- no code for trying to match up non-legacy sized regions
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: however with the mesh capabilities we have now you should never need more than 100k prims honestly
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: even on really large builds
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: well its possible less then 350K but i counted 15K region and not water sims
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok - that would be hairy
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: thats what i mean nebadon
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: I imagine there would have to be an extensio nto the grid service to idenitfy whether a particular region was ordinary, variable, mega, etc.
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: anyway wanted todo all mesh
[11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: will it be possible to put multiple vars next to each other if they are identical in size?
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be something i would very much like to see
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: mega could be improved by having the grid service know expicitly about them but that might become rather redundant now
[11:17]  Robert Adams: a region does register its size with the grid service... once can find out from there
[11:17]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon: It would be even more interesting to see different sizes of regions against each other.
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: a lot of the models I will be working on in the future could be 100's of regions that would really be awesome to reduce that down to like 10 or less
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think you have to start with the most basic case and get that working
[11:18]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: that sounds like a placing different sized cookies next to each other ;)
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's already difficult enough to do as it is
[11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: ihi andrew, i think it good to have first square full implemented vars
[11:18]  Robert Adams: that's how Aurora got rid of a lot of cruft in EntityTransferModule... rather than trying to do distance math, just ask the grid service
[11:18]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: even math guys get a good pile of problems with that
[11:18]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i have problems to resize models to fit a megaregion 2x2 (more than one sim)
[11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: Freaky, people always wants the biggest cookie
[11:18]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:18]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I know
[11:18]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, indeed. There are likely lots of places in the code that are only set for 256 square regions.
[11:19]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: especially grid owners
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: I have 2 models right now that I would love to convert to var
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: Universal Campus and Sundbyberg
[11:19]  Richardus Raymaker: with var's whats best 0.7.6 robust or do you need 0.8dev robust ?
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: a 2x2 and a 3x3, so i will be testing the hell out of it when you think its ready for that level of testing
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: What performance impact do you think var would have?
[11:20]  Robert Adams: I want to make the region loaders be able to load larger images -- just larger BMPs, etc
[11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: i have like i told nothing. but i need 6x6 land with 14 wtare sims inside that
[11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: One is going to be loading potentially more data and avatars onto a single set of UDP, scene loop, inventory handling threads, etc.
[11:20]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: sounds like boating area ;)
[11:20]  Robert Adams: performance-wise, I expect zero impact... memory will be more (larger heightmap in the physics engine mostly)
[11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: boating, flyiong, train
[11:21]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i have enough memory :D
[11:21]  Robert Adams: most of the work if changing references to Constants.RegionSize to RegionInfo.RegionSizeX :)
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I have to disagree - one is going to be loading much more stuff into a single 'scene'
[11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: same here. and i can expand still
[11:21]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hopefully trains looking better than those I encountered on grids already ;)
[11:22]  Robert Adams: well, ok... if you mean that performance.... yes, people will put more stuff in larger regions and that will make it slower
[11:22]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:22]  Richardus Raymaker: well. my while idea's or a bit mixed exploded and scrambled. right now
[11:22]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi dahlia
[11:22]  Vivian Klees: hi Dahlia
[11:22]  Robert Adams: but if you currently have a 3x3 set of regions, you are already loading all those objects into the viewer so you can see all the regions... should n't be much different in one region
[11:22]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what does OpenSim internally use to put those terrain meshes together for e.g. bulletsim or ode?
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just wondering what scalability is like, because there are single threads which handle aspects of scene comms
[11:22]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hash lists ?
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: it may not scale in the same manner as having multiple regions
[11:23]  Richardus Raymaker: i think if i ever have understand it right. with var's we need soemthing like intressted list if i understand it from SL right. load whats close by first. an dmaby not load anything  thats foar away
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: if you dont have any neighbors it should scale much beter
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: than having say 9 regions in 1 simulator
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: thats a lot more comms isnt it?
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there is that difference on the other hand
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:23]  Richardus Raymaker: yeah nebadon. all the child conections can be killer
[11:23]  Robert Adams: freaky, OpenSim keeps terrains as heightmaps so merging is done by copying into larger arrays of heightmaps
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: also on the viewer end, you would be dealing with more data coming through a single scene connection
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: instead of multiple scene connectios
[11:24]  Robert Adams: the terrain meshes are build in the viewer
[11:24]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: what about those non-phantom objects?
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: ya you would definitely need good distance throttles
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: which opensim lacks at the moment
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: so its not trying to render the entire thing even if you have it set for like 256m
[11:24]  Richardus Raymaker: i know
[11:24]  Vivian Klees: might be where the viewer hit problems with aurora with adjacent vars assuming the other region was 256m in size
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe we still chuck everything at the viewer when it enters the scene
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: I think so too
[11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know its giveing all
[11:25]  Robert Adams: Vivian, Aurora doesn't have adjacent varregions
[11:25]  Vivian Klees: an adjacent would try to load in scene
[11:25]  Vivian Klees: they tried
[11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: whats the advised ditacnce between neigborns robert ? 2 sims ?
[11:25]  Robert Adams: ya... then Rev gave up on that one :)
[11:26]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually sounds like distance culling as done in other 3D applications when having larger scenery
[11:26]  Vivian Klees: that goes deeep into the viewer
[11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm sure vivian. its not a matter of opensim checks how far the prim is from your avatar. and if its to far dont send anything to viewer ?
[11:27]  Robert Adams: Richardus: one sim shold be enough... but it is really whatever the grid service tells the viewer which regions are 'adjacent'
[11:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: A viewer would have to report draw distance setting to the OS code before OS would know just how much scene data it should chuck at the viewer.
[11:28]  Robert Adams: will need to make sure the grid service logic is good for the larger regions
[11:29]  Robert Adams: we modified the grid service once to tell the viewer about two or three regions in the distance... improves the view at the expense of a slow viewer :)
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya the Uppsala model that diva and I built you can see 36 regions when you log in
[11:29]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: means much more data sent then
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its quite interesting
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: the entire model is 72 regions
[11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: weird question , are var's good as HG welcome region ?
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: i doubt that could be answered until tested Richardus
[11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: 36 ? wow
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:30]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: If you got one, I would try to go there ;)
[11:30]  Robert Adams: what Neb said :)
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: Like robert said earlier there are issues with teleporting beyond 256m
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: the same would go for logins
[11:30]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i'm afraid that i'm using the 64bit version now :D
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: at this point
[11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: yok.
[11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm tried 64bit singulkarity. not sure if its usefull for me
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: yes 64 bit viewers will make the difference
[11:31]  Andrew Hellershanks: A TP issue beyond 256m? Last time the TP issue was beyond 4096. :)
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: with how many prims you can load for sure
[11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: it works, but movement am not sure. need more testing
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: varregions will greatly benefit from 64 bit viewers
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: same could be said about mega-regions
[11:32]  Vivian Klees: only difference I've noticed is in fps with 64bit
[11:32]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: more accessible memory for the viewer
[11:32]  Robert Adams: I need to find all the corners... like last evening I found that, even though I can move around the varregion, I couldn't rez a prim above 256m.... another check that needs to be found and stomped
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: correct, with 32 bit viewer you will be lucky to get to 150k prims
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: it will simply run out of memory
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: thats prims with no textures even
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: just cubes
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's very curious, I'm sure that's ordinarily possible
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: rezzing above 256m
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've seen enough sky platforms in opensim in my time...
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: wiht the 64 bit viewer i was able to rez 850k primitive cubes
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and 1 million mesh cubes
[11:33]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i've never tried
[11:33]  Robert Adams: sorry, I meant rezzing at a region location greater than <256,256>... not altitude
[11:33]  Richardus Raymaker: anyway nebadon. you say best to make a megaregion if you want to be ready for var ? because easy to transfer
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: correct
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: oh I see. Yes, there are coded limits somewhere
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: there will likely be no direct path from regular 3x3 simulator to a varregion
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: you will first need to convert it to mega
[11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: lol justin 'somewhere' thats the problem
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: save that oar, then push that oar into varregion
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: unless someone impliments oar loading offsets
[11:34]  Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a nice feature that shouldn't be hard to implement.
[11:35]  Richardus Raymaker: does the wiki alhave a var page ?
[11:35]  Robert Adams: a console command the moves all the prims in a region to a different offset in a different region :)
[11:35]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: and the problems with resizing models more then 256x256 should be gone ?
[11:36]  Robert Adams: Richardus: I haven't created a wiki page yet
[11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: do you really want bigger models >
[11:36]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: or is it viewer related ?
[11:36]  Robert Adams: I have a bunch of implementation notes that I should get up
[11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: wiki page can maby avoid soem double questions etc.
[11:37]  Vivian Klees: hi Pathfinder
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I can't find where the rez limits are
[11:38]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: hiya Vivian
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi pathfinder
[11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: robert a var only need 1 ini and 1 regionname right ? and not like a mega 36 ? saves me still 36 opensim.ini files with mega. hhmm
[11:38]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: hiya Justin
[11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: hi pathfindr
[11:38]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hi pathfinder
[11:38]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: hi pathfinder ; nice place you got at your grid ;)
[11:38]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Hi Richard and everyone :0
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: I know megaregions rez objects okay in other regions so I'm a little surprised there's a limit, but obviously there is
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I mean beyond 256 256
[11:39]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Freaky, oh thanks! I noticed you stopped by. Glad you enjoyed it.
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i dont think there is any problem rezzing beyond 256m
[11:39]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I noticed your last visitor list
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: in SL they probably rely more on server side checks
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be foolish to trust the viewer to do those limits
[11:40]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: should be server side since that knows the limits better
[11:40]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: or at least the viewer should get those told
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, one should never trust the client
[11:40]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon, how do you ever get to building with all the server and testing stuff ? :O
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:41]  Robert Adams: Richardus: yes, only one Region.ini with larger size specified
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: have lots of computers available
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:41]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I saw that list ;)
[11:41]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and still some regions offline?
[11:41]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i think its a better solution then 2x2 mega :)
[11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: yeah. but still 2 hands and 1 brain i guess.
[11:41]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: the client is in the hands of the enemy...
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: didnt you hear? i have 4 brains
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:42]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: clients are always enemies since they are not under your control at all ;)
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: diva thinks im actually a collective of people
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:42]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: :D 2 4 work and 2 for wife? :D
[11:42]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Freaky, precisely
[11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: borg 2 :O
[11:42]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: isn't that true for grid owners?
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: but honestly, if it wasnt for all the people at OSgrid testing would be way more difficult
[11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks is Offline
[11:42]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: don't they have multiple identities?
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: osgrid is capable of absorbing a lot of time :)
[11:42]  Cuteulala Artis is Online
[11:43]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:43]  will barnside: ok
[11:43]  Richardus Raymaker: really need to see if i can create a2x2 mega here.. (pretty empty) but thats pushing the dual core)
[11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: I read of somebody operating 116 regions on a 4 core today
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is.... scary
[11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: i have already 11 on that dual core
[11:44]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: wow isn't it laggy?
[11:44]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I am pushing a single core with less than 1G mem so why not give it a try ;)
[11:44]  Vivian Klees: 2gb of ram right?
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i have seen multiple people running 100+ region megas
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: I can see people trying to operate a 16386x16386 megaregio non an amazon single core instance ;)
[11:44]  Nebadon Izumi: and not complaining too much
[11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: no 8GB here. with 4GB opensim crash.
[11:44]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: wow congratulations :)
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: if they're crazy then i guess they don't mind crazy stuff happening
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: lol justin. well thats really flying space.
[11:45]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: have to keep the stuff a bit low profile on the region
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: and lots of mainland
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I enjoy finding the breaking points
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: its fun to see how far you can make it go
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, maybe it's not so bad if most of it is emptyu
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: and do things people say you cant do
[11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: and 0.7.6 would perform a lot better with lots of regions
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: they don#t generate the same constant base cpu load anymore
[11:45]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hosting a copy of seconlife on a singlecore :D
[11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: though there is still some
[11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: why is my todo list only get longer...
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: so how does variable regions interact with dsg?
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: is that then an alternative way of scaling load?
[11:46]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I am planning to give it a try on a raspberry b series so
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've never seen opensim run well on a single core
[11:46]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: speaking of load and performance, Justin, ty for those 2 recent blog posts you made about the technical side of OSCC13. Really helpful details in there for anyone running a grid.
[11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: getting opensimulator running on ARM hardware will be difficult at best
[11:47]  Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky: A viewer on a Pi?
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: and quite possible not at all
[11:47]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: no the sim is something I wanna try
[11:47]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: at least grid will get one
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: opensimulator in its current state is x86 only
[11:47]  Andrew Hellershanks: I doubt the Pi even has enough memory.
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: pathfinder: great you find it useful. Yes, that's my intention with writing that stuff - to try and show people how to replicate stuff like the conference
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think its impossible to get it to run on ARM, but it wont be easy
[11:47]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: has 512MB suffices at least for robust
[11:47]  Richardus Raymaker: Pi have 512MB
[11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont have 512 free
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: not easy because getting there still requires a lot of expert knwoledge
[11:47]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, the new ones do (such as mine).
[11:48]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I know the kernel has to go somewhere
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: No, some of the ram is used for video.
[11:48]  Richardus Raymaker: but mono pi. i think its ot strong enough. it seems hd video already pushing it
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: from my expereince with linux running a machine with 512 ram will be lucky to have 300mb free
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: thats really stripped down
[11:48]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: mono on a raspberry ?!? i never tried
[11:48]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: but my current opensim system including grid is not only doing opensim either so pretty loaded on 768MB RAM
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: if you need mysql running forget it
[11:48]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: and it is running mysql
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: mono on ARM is easy
[11:48]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: needs swap because of that for loading that machine
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: its the other stuff like physics
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: and database
[11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: that complicate it
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: xengine possibly
[11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: the need to make a quad core pi with more insertable memory
[11:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't think you can set aside less ram than 64MB for video so that leaves you 512-64 for programs including the operating system.
[11:49]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: running a bunch of scripts
[11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ya im sure you can atleast get opensim to start with 512
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: you wont be able to do much
[11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: PImple
[11:50]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i would say cluster your mysql with 50 raspberry and it can be successfully but not with only one :)
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: spending that much money just buy a nice i7 server
[11:50]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: you cannot go probably beyond some 1000 prims with the sims but let's see what it can do ; will pick those up tomorrow
[11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks: There have been clusters made using Pis
[11:51]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I have an i7-4770K with 16G so if wanna toy around with something big I can do
[11:51]  Richardus Raymaker: dual pi, 1 for opensim and 1 for the mysql part
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: ya dont get me wrong it would be a fun project
[11:51]  Dahlia Trimble: I hear beagleboards are more powerful computers than PIs are
[11:51]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: those B series are Dual Core 700MHz
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: but i dont think it could be anything you could use on any kind of production level
[11:51]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: wanted to toy around with these anyways
[11:51]  Nebadon Izumi: its more of the challenge of can you
[11:51]  Andrew Hellershanks: You would have to turn the caching of MySQL data way down.
[11:52]  Dahlia Trimble: I use an atom for my regions, it's pretty slow but it works
[11:52]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: could you run MoWeS instead of MySQL? Like with simonastick?
[11:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, true. I know someone who wants to try running Unix V7 on an AVR micro controller.
[11:52]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: simonapi...?
[11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia. when you sneaked in
[11:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, almost half hour ago
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: only if it runs in ARM hardware Pathfinder
[11:53]  Dahlia Trimble: richardus, ive been here but afk :)
[11:53]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: Neb, ah duh, you're right.
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: there are all kinds of challenges in getting proper libraries for ARM
[11:53]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000 wasn't thinking it through
[11:53]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: the big AVR are ARM based if I remember correctly
[11:53]  Robert Adams: Probably run great on a Galileo :)
[11:53]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I like challenges to go for
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: but IBM had it running on PowerPC
[11:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, the 32-bit versions might be. Not the ATmega series.
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: which is similar to ARM kind of
[11:54]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I did not mean ATmega
[11:54]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I meant the AVR32 series
[11:54]  Dahlia Trimble: arm is risc isnt it?
[11:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Freaky, my friend did for V7
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry to interrupt. But before we end, does anybody have any other opensim topics this week?
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: well its Reduced instruction set, but not technically RISC no
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm hoping to do the update to using .net v4 soon, which will require all windows users to have the .net v4 package installed
[11:55]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i need to send a solution for knowledgebase cause i can't find a email adress to send em
[11:55]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I like actually how opensim behaves on mono 3.2.3 ;)
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ok I dont think that is such a big leap anymore Justin
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: no, shouldn't be a problem.
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: XP support officially ends in less than 6 months
[11:55]  Richardus Raymaker: well . only problem i found with 0.7.6 is taht i cannot run bullet and save oar on soem regions the go in opensim.exe topped error on windows
[11:55]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          2b069a3: 2013-11-02 00:39:12 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm still running xp! :)
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: most everything after XP either already has .net 4 or is only a couple clicks to get it
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well you better upgrade soon
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't relaly want to shell out more money to ms...
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: bah :)
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure what that will mean for my XP machine.
[11:56]  Dahlia Trimble: I still have xp on an old computer
[11:56]  Andrew Hellershanks: I still have ME on an old Pentium II
[11:56]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: delete windows 8 :D
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty soon you wont even really be able ot easily install XP anymore
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe I'll have a go at going pure linux, though that is still painful
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: microsoft will kill all the authentication servers
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: for keys
[11:56]  Nebadon Izumi: its really going dark soon
[11:56]  Richardus Raymaker: No, i just finaly got to 8.1 on this system. nothing wrong with 8 desktop. after you conigured it right. but stil soemtimes..
[11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: can they do ythat, really?
[11:56]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: they probably already started on XP
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, always depends on what you do with a machine. I can run Linux almost exclusively. Very few things still require Windows.
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: yes XP is already several years beyond its support cycle
[11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, that would be problem.. i dont think the kill the servers. only update serves. the cant forbid you to activate xp
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but those few windows things can come back to bite
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: running XP is like running Ubuntu 6
[11:57]  Robert Adams: I hope to get some testing of the 'varregion' branch on regular region setups... it should most mess regular setup and should be mergable into 'master'... but must test first
[11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: though tbh I do also have a windows 8 machine, just not on my main desktop
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah.
[11:57]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: especially when it comes to 3D support of graphics cards
[11:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: do regressio ntests currently pass on the var-regio nbranch?
[11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: For me, its mostly to run a 3D modelling program that is windows only or hot syncing a PDA which is quite old.
[11:58]  Dahlia Trimble needs to play with the varregion stuff
[11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: its on my list now. but betetr oderr my disk a bit
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: no you will still be able to install XP, but what good is that if you cant install the 675 updates
[11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:58]  Robert Adams: justin: I haven't tested the tests... looking at them, they are all based on 256 regions so there aren't tests for the larger regions
[11:58]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: :D
[11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: pff, I don't visit dodgy sites with this machine :)
[11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: i still think you can get win98 updates to
[11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: the just dont make new updates
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: you can get the Service Packs
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: robert: I'm more interested in whether those existing 256m tests work
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway we should not be encouraging people to use unsupported software
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: its irresponsible
[11:59]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: hmm i think windows 98 goes crazy with 8 cores and 32mb ram :D
[11:59]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: gb*
[11:59]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually windows 98 has quite a few quirks on newer machines missing drivers and so on
[12:00]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002 is Online
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: I think it will be good to move into .net
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: there are other issues
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: like you can no longer downloading Visual Studio 200
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: 2008*
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: yet its still our default
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, part of updating has to make vs2010 the build default
[12:00]  Richardus Raymaker: am on 2012 if im right
[12:00]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i miss the bluescreens :) that was the only function that worked :)
[12:01]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: I noticed they already removed that from he download page
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: 2010 is going to be retired soon even
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: you can't compile .net 4 in vs 2008 anyway
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: 2013 is out now
[12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: and compileing opensim with that
[12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: well 2012 is fine.. knowing icrosoft the maby screwed something in 2013
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: I like 2010, I dont like 2013
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: I only installed 2013 for first time couple of days ago
[12:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: Update to make VS 2012 the default instead of 2008, just as support for 2012 is dropped. :)
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: it was able to compile opensim with prebuild2010.bat
[12:02]  Richardus Raymaker: still have i think 2005 express on cd and 2008 and
[12:02]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: actually when starting I compiled 0.7.5 on mono ;) (me being an ArchLinux user)
[12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: thats about as far as I went though, it looked pretty familiar
[12:02]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: i think i've started with 0.3.x
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go. See you all around.
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: good change that a var works betetr on linux on my amd.
[12:04]  Pathfinder.Lester @pathlandia.dlinkddns.com:9000: take care Justin
[12:04]  fine.Dreadlow @fine-grid.sytes.net:8002: bye justin
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justtin
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: kk Justin, talk soon :)
[12:04]  Freaky.Tech @freakytech.spdns.de:8002: have a nice day justin
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was just about to say I'm going to head out.
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, justin
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we are at the top of the hour, good meeting, thanks everyone
[12:04]  Vivian Klees: have a good evening Justin
[12:04]  Justin Clark-Casey waves
[12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: same time next week :)
[12:04]  Richardus Raymaker: robert var is indepent from physics engine ?
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks waves
[12:04]  Andrew Hellershanks is Offline
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