Chat log from the meeting on 2013-05-21

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[11:07] Arielle.Popstar i been having probs between .7.6 regions
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: in some weeks i hope i can test that more to
[11:08] Antoni.Gaudi craft and francogrid......have not good hypergrid implementation
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar buit my bandwidth is currently maxing at 50 KB/s
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: i guess justin is the walking hair ?
[11:08] Licu.Rau we have upgrades about ten regions with 0.7.6 and tp seems to be better
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: i see a few invisible avatars
[11:08] Licu.Rau upgraded*
[11:08] Arielle.Popstar i had to revert to a .7.3 version for stable jumps
[11:08] Fred.Appleby You are doing well with that Arielle
[11:08] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          ba6a6b2: 2013-05-21 18:18:16 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: when you say 0.7.6 which date?
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: brr 0.7.43 never go ue that again. so buggy
[11:09] Fred.Appleby Current
[11:09] Licu.Rau commit 55c9bc
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: when you sya tp is better, in what way?
[11:09] Fred.Appleby 0.7.6 Dev e65d1e4
[11:09] Licu.Rau faster and less tps fail
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: 0.7.6 should be in general better
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: the revision fred quotes has something that will heopefully fix the issue with users not being able to tp back into some regions sometimes
[11:10] Arielle.Popstar anyone test on lower bandwidths?
[11:10] Sarah Kline: hi
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: hi sarah
[11:11] Sarah Kline: )
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: uhhh, i can now set the bandwidth on the switch how i want
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: think lowest would be 64Kbyte
[11:11] Arielle.Popstar Singularity for example had to fix their code because login with less then 60 KB/s was not possible
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar whereas other viewers it was
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: cant believe there people that try to run sl on lower then that :O
[11:12] Fred.Appleby I am from a group of 9 small grids and standalones, and we have no known issues, except IM
[11:12] Arielle.Popstar not everyone has a choice Richard
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: in what way IM problems fred ?
[11:13] Fred.Appleby IM when a user leaves their home sim
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: Arielle, running sl with 64KB/s means you need 1 day to load a sim.
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar no
[11:13] Fred.Appleby works one way, but not the other
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: aha.. i know that problem i think. its some weeks ago. but i turned soem HG things off with saved messages and groups
[11:13] Arielle.Popstar yes, i have seen that too Fred
[11:14] Fred.Appleby bit of a killer for collaberation
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway ,any opensim topics this week?
[11:15] Kayaker Magic: Can I plug the moving a seated avatar problem?
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: you certainly can
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: any progress?
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: what is the problem?
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: could you remind me exactly what we're talking about?
[11:16] Kayaker Magic: when an avatar sits on an object,
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: moving wva lsl params commands as a member of a linkset?
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: hmm forgot to check.. is the terrain edit working correct in 0.7.6 ? i sw the strength slider did not work right with soem options. but forgot wich viewer. at least with asyta 1.6 strange things hapepnd.
[11:17] Kayaker Magic: llSetLinkPrimPramFast is supposed to be able to change their position.
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: right. No progress yet but it is in my mind
[11:17] Nova.Saunders question
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: and hopefully I should get the chance now to loko at a few things
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: It is big on some of the grids, I see people complaining in the forums that they don't have a good posing system for lack of this.
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: pls go ahead
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: There is a popular product in SL called AVsitter that depends on this
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: magic sitter ? easy sit ?
[11:19] Nova.Saunders Id like to list the opening of my new's educational.but not sure how to get ppl there
[11:19] Nova.Saunders any suggestions?
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: what kind of audience are you looking to reach?
[11:19] Licu.Rau tell maria korolov
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: heh yes
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey: nova:
[11:20] Nova.Saunders students....teachers...general public..not fussy at the moment
[11:20] Nova.Saunders I run the archaeological island on the VIBE grid
[11:21] Kayaker Magic: Oh, I was involved in an opensim based announcement system, see and try announcing your site there
[11:21] Arielle.Popstar register at too
[11:21] Licu.Rau wew are going to begin with educational sims too, just doing some test specially for child protection
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: yes, you could try hypergridbusiness, forums such as and g+ communities like and opensim virtual
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: oh yes, various other places as well
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, no one central place :)
[11:21] Nova.Saunders great
[11:21] Nova.Saunders let me copy and paste that
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: there's also an opensim-edu mailing list on the site which has educators on, though often quite quiet
[11:22] Nova.Saunders ahhhh
[11:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't really recommend the opensim-users or dev mailing lists since they're really for opensim user and dev questions
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: though maybe it would be nice to have an announcement list
[11:23] Nova.Saunders we're listed on some directory.I think it is on the open sim one
[11:23] Nova.Saunders all good suggestions...ty ty
[11:23] Arielle.Popstar the G= communities are big for announcements atm
[11:24] Arielle.Popstar G+
[11:24] Antoni.Gaudi 1.786.546.765.123 regions for few avatars......
[11:24] Nova.Saunders the main goal is to have it used for online class's
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:25] Nova.Saunders but I'd like feedback first
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: you might find greatest reliability in a non-hypergrid configuration
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: unless having people able to visit is essential for your needs
[11:25] Nova.Saunders ?????
[11:25] Fred.Appleby heh
[11:26] Licu.Rau we are configuring the authorization service so that the accesses to teh school region are regulated
[11:26] Nova.Saunders not sure what u mean Justin
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: you're visting from some hypergrid enabled opensim installation,. right?
[11:27] Nova.Saunders yes
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: but perhaps I am making the wrong assumption and your teaching sim is not hg enabled?
[11:27] Nova.Saunders I believe it is
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, so hypergrid is a very interesting and useful thing, but it does add a layer of complexity on top of opensim
[11:27] Arielle.Popstar it is open to visiting from the general public?
[11:28] Nova.Saunders excuse.I'm just an educator /builder.not sure of the tech end
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: so running without hypergrid would potentially improve reliability but would not make it so easily accessible
[11:28] Nova.Saunders yes it's open to the public as well
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: ok, someone else is administering your simulators?
[11:28] Nova.Saunders yes
[11:28] Antoni.Gaudi something like an HYPERGRID PLAZA is needed(for all activities)
[11:29] Antoni.Gaudi and INWORLD
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: I guess it's the difference between having an intranet webserver and a public webserver
[11:29] Nova.Saunders a small group of educators formed an educational grid...VIBE..and I run the archaeological region
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: a public webserver allows anybody to see things but also means much more unpredictable traffic/load. etc.
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: but may be essential for what you hope to do
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: of course, opensim is nowhere near as reliable as a webserver :)
[11:30] Licu.Rau in italy there is an educational grid called Edmondo nut teachers are working in Craft too because in an hypergridded grid they can find ideas and help (collaborators)
[11:30] Licu.Rau but*
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: justin, sofar i know for HG yiou need apublic webserver.
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: the webserver thing is an analogy - not an exact match
[11:31] Arielle.Popstar you do?
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I was talking figuratively
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: nova: anyway, nice to hear about vibe, and edmondo too, licu
[11:32] Nova.Saunders smile
[11:32] Nova.Saunders ty ty
[11:32] Nova.Saunders again ty for the help
[11:32] Nova.Saunders bye
[11:33] Justin Clark-Casey: bye nova
[11:33] Licu.Rau bye nova
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar so whats the plan for getting 200 avatars into on conference?
[11:34] Arielle.Popstar on=one
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: praying :()
[11:35] Licu.Rau with intel system?
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar lol
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble is online.
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: or rather, do more load tests and identify bottlenecks like login and why they are occuring
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: which to me means adding more stats
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar how many came at the last test?
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: technically we had 121 clients, I believe
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: 124 i think was the peak
[11:35] Arielle.Popstar oh not bad
[11:35] Antoni.Gaudi no
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar any slowdows?
[11:36] Licu.Rau no lag during synchronisation when an avi arrives?
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there was almost no lag
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: but around 120 avatars it got hard to log in
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: and a few avatars got knocked out
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: had trouble getting back
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: but the sims where empty with objects ?
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: I suspect some of that can be fixed
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: there was some objects there Richardus
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: also no inventory that need to load if you HG
[11:36] Arielle.Popstar is there a way to divert incoming to the least full region?
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle not at the moment no
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: should be possible in principle by setting max avatars and then naming the other keynotes as backup regions?
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: i was hoping that once the default region was full it would send people to the next fallback region
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: but that did not work
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhh
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: thats what i did
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and it did not work
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: then that's... a bug
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: people got region is full message
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: and bounced back to their departure sim
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. some missing code in opensim
[11:38] Arielle.Popstar Hi Dahlia
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: technically im not sure its a "bug"
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats how it works
[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: inside of a normal grid teleport
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: if you try to teleport to a full region you get sent back to region you came from
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - but weren't those direct logins?
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: which is exactly what happened
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: no there are no direct logins for these tests
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: its all HG visitors
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: ah right
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: only direct logins were controlled by me
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: perhaps at the extreme some new code could be written to do that
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: but then the problem may not have been related to that - need more data
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: likely what we would need
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar which is the easiest on the regions?
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: it would need to be tailored to HG teleports specifically
[11:39] Arielle.Popstar HG or direct logins?
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: you would not want this to happen in a local grid teleport
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: a teleport is probably less harsh
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: potentially it is anyway
[11:40] Arielle.Popstar but HG avi likely has inventory loaded before jumping
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: a login has the potential for an empty cache
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: shouldn't it apply to all teleports?
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: a teleport that is less likely
[11:40] Dahlia Trimble: I doubt theres much difference
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: no Justin it should not
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: in a local grid tp
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: you would not want to send an avatar to an unknown region if they hit a full region
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: you send them back to region they left from
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: why wouldn't you in this particular case?
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: where one of the keynote regions is 'full'?
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: in this case we would
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: but under normal use cases you would not
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: right
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: so it would just be code for this particular case, though I'm sure potentially useful for any large gathering
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: during the actual event
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: it wont work this way though
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: might be compilcated to do though with the current architecture of advertising regions
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: so, some option in the ini IfRegionFullUseFallBack =
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: during the actual event people will be limited to the region they are assigned for the keynote
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: ah ok
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: aha
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: so its really only relevant to the load tests per say
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: not that its not useful
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: btw, this might be crazy, but did you consider doing the keynotes as one big mega? ;)
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: I thought about it, but i dont think we could get 200 avatars into 1 simulator
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: though that would rather bypass the point of doing 4 corner regions
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: not without something like DSG
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: right - too early for dsg
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: we are pushing the limits at 50
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: practical limits anyway
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon is playing with dynamite :O
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: the problem is with that many avatars people get disconnected a lot
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: mono can only handle so many connections
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar if we had variable regions you could make 50 meter square regions :)
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: even .net would have issues without changing the code considerably
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: that would start to point towards overload of the udp connections
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: right
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: wel,l in this case the connectivity is maintained via udp
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: which isn't subject to those limits as it's connectionless, I believe
[11:45] Dahlia Trimble: udp doesnt have connections
[11:45] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: but udp have opther problems
[11:45] Dahlia Trimble: udp is very low overhead, if theres problems its probably in the application since it controls everything
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: it could be that the load means we no longer process incoming viewer packets in time and so the server ends up disconnecting them after the timeout
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar is udp working in opensim now?
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: if it wasn't we wouldn't be having this convo :)
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:46] Richardus Raymaker: hehe
[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: Adelle, you wouldnt be here if it wasnt working
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar well the udp inventory and textures were no tworking recently
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar udp fallback
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: that's different
[11:46] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: does udp fallback work now btw?
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar i havent tested since Melanie put a patch in
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I'd be interest in confirming that fix
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: interested
[11:47] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar it was a combination of viewer and opensim
[11:48] Unknown User: /do we have a stress test later this evening?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: not today
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: next week
[11:48] Unknown User: k
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i will announce it early next time
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: i am still setting up the grid
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: i have about 8 more regions to bring online
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, I hope to add more of the kind of stats I want to see and be able to monitor personally next time
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: sure that would be great
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: it will be after this meeting, right?
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:50] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i am hopefully going to have munin tracking things as well
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. there are more monitor systems. seems to be a new one to
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i had it running on this server previously so shouldnt be too hard to get going again
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: you remind me that i need to install it to. forgot it on the new one
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i'll probably have iptraf running too
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, really need to start outputting data consistently from opensim so it can be plugged into monitoring systems
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: at the moment that kind of thing is a mess
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I wonder if everybody is waiting on the xbox announcement today?
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. i saw 1 thing today. someone from HG where takeing objects. but..
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar is there a place on the wiki on what and how to use these monitoring debug testing systems?
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey:
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: not really Arielle
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ah what does that cover?
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: though yes, that just talks about various stuff but not how to plugin external systems
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya i thought she meant like Munin
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: it would be nice if it did one day
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect she might
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya there used to be a way to monitor some of that stuff
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: but it wasnt that great
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: i saw when the do that a hug spam of messages that start with "[USER AGENT CONNECTOR]: new connector to http:"
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: that's still there but the things I've been adding to the latest and greatest stats system are not automatically exposed that way
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: really, all this stuff needs to be tied together so that adding a stat also makes it externally available if that is turned on
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar well i was just meaning in general to help in testing
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya it would be nice if someone could make up a fancy json ajax page
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: huh
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: i know bluewall has some of that kind of stuff
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: he had a cool web page that was fed from json stats and it had like tachometer like guagers
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: guages*
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: it was neat
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: richaruds: that should just be on startup?
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: no. that where with 2 HG visitors on my 0.7.5 regins getting objects
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: it shows more. it came from germangriud
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: ok no I see, it's created in a lot of places
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: its just spamming the console a bit much
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: the trick is being able to reduce that spam whilst still keeping the info available
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: is this something that you noticed recently?
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: the message itself has been there since sept 2010 but it's possible some new code now triggers it much more frequently
[12:00] Sarah Kline: bye all
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: are you running in debug mode?
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: for logging?
[12:00] Richardus Raymaker: i just saw it the first time today.. its printing around 1 message every 3 seconds. but its with 0.7.5 release
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: bye sarah
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: honestly any region where production levels are expected should not be running with debug logging
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: we run these plazas in INFO
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: and if you start experiencing issues then you switch back to DEBUG until you can find the problem
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: the log say debug. but i cant remember i ever turned it on. so how can you check the log level ?
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: if you are going to hvae a really large event
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: you should turn logging to OFF
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: edit your OpenSim.exe.config
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: there are 2 spots
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: not even ERROR?
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: it depends i guess
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: if your not looking for bugs and need the highest level of performance
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: shut it off
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: if things start acting funny turn it on
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: during the OSG5B parties we turn logging off
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it can make a big difference
[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: ERROR shouldnt be much
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, logging can be a not insignifcant load
[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: let me check
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: if ERROR is genrating spam then we need to do something about that
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: right
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: I know the map stuff can spew a lot right now
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: on places like osgrid
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: if your having trouble by all means turn on ERROR or DEBUG
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: but don't leave it there unless your specifically hunting for something
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: we leave it on INFO and that greatly reduces the console spam
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: while still being semi-useful
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: if i look quick at the xml file its turned on i think. but thats the default from 0.7.5 source
[12:05] Arielle.Popstar is there a show queues function for http?
[12:05] Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
[12:05] Arielle.Popstar tc Dahlia
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: see you Dahlia :)
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[12:05] Zia Frimon: Caio Dah
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: thaks justin. i save this and look into it when i have ore time. it dont happen much
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm going to go do some work as well. See you all around
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey waves
[12:06] Licu.Rau bye justin
[12:07] Zia Frimon: waves
[12:07] Arielle.Popstar tc Justin
[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
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