Chat log from the meeting on 2013-05-07

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[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: yes logger
[10:59] Robert Adams: there are so many moving parts to OpenSim... you change one thing and something totally unrelated seems to go haywire
[11:00] logger sewell: I was going to ask about that we have the whole VH grid on Bullet right now
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: well if its running ok there is no problem with that
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks is online.
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: it may however break from time to time
[11:00] Teravus Ousley: Hi justincc
[11:00] Richardus Raymaker: oh grey & clouds is hot this days. sl have it to :)
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza is a worst case scenario
[11:01] logger sewell: Hi Justin
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: thats why we test things here at these meetings
[11:01] Unknown User: Logger I was told by another sim its having some problems, Bullet Sim with stairs angles and the like.
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: Yes.. things will break.. and and they will be fixed and switched back on :)
[11:01] tx Oh: hi justin
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: none of my other bulletsim sandboxes acted the way this region did
[11:01] logger sewell: yeh the only problem we are having is the climbing issue
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: are you running git master logger?
[11:01] logger sewell: Hi Andrew
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: that should be fixed in newer versions
[11:01] Robert Adams: logger, have you used the new stairs code?
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, logger.
[11:02] logger sewell: not sure what Andrew has installed i forgot
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: Right now, its just 075PF
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: someone has provided some BulletSim settings that may help with stairs (before using the latest BS code) but I haven't tested those settings yet.
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: also mesh stairs are still sticky
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: even with the fix
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: thats another issue though
[11:03] UUID Speaker: cos mos: 1e306aa8-aff1-4b64-b918-e4f6f141aa1b
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Are mesh stairs common?
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: probably not
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: though they are becoming more common
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: yea, I wouldn't think they were.
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: we have them here
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: not seen them much
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: yes the stairs to get up stairs in this building are mesh
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: behind me
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: but they have ramps at the moment
[11:04] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, ok. I just fly up these days. Faster than taking the stairs.
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: transparent ramps to make it smoother
[11:05] logger sewell: Hi tiffany you sneeked in on me
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew. falling down is still faster
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi logger , tiff
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, :-D
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: lol
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: sounds like teravus
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey gueses
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: so far this tuesday sucks! hehe
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: 5 people here have something odd under their names. Looks like random text but it is the same text.
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, for me too - got quite trahsed for me
[11:06] Teravus Ousley: It is teravus yes :)
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: woke up to and data center being offline
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew i have seen that once to somewhere
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: what do you mean by trash
[11:06] Andrew Hellershanks: It doesn't suck for me but its not a great day. I've been complaining about Singularity.
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: complaining?
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: techincally we have been complaining about all viewers and the grid managers
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, doesn't save separate passwords for each grid I'm on so I'm always having to enter passwords as I change grids.
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: andrew, huh ?
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: that would be annoyhing
[11:07] Arielle Popstar: i thi9nk a font issue between FS and Singularity'
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, the Grid manager doesn't allow me to enter a Search URL in the box.
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: singularity.. right ?
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: Melanie said it does save passwords but I'm on 1.8.0 and it isn't doing it for me.
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, yup. I'm using 1.8.0 under Linux 32-bit.
[11:08] logger sewell: oh off topic but I had a resident ask me about setting the max prim size to 1024x1024 for sim surounds what does anyone think of that good or is it even possible
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: it is possible logger
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: Andrew, singularity have so its up and down days with saveing passwords. or in my case loosing them sometimes
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: its an OpenSim.ini setting
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: Oh, sorry andrew. im in prcess of going back to linux. (win as VM) but sofar it seems to hold password fine
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: NonPhysicalPrimMax = 1024
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then you just need a viewer that can do it
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: Latest Kokua can
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: Firestorm probably can
[11:09] logger sewell: but how do you think it will do to proformance on the grid ?
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: logger, I would prefer to keep to 256m size. I don't want someone to use really big prims as griefer material and affecting people several regions over.
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: should be fine Logger
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: however the parts that go over sim borders
[11:10] logger sewell: ah ok like I say I was asked
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: will be phantom outside of the region
[11:10] Tiffany Magic: They accommodate the sim surrounds that many love, Andrew.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: logger, yes, it would be possible but may not be a good idea.
[11:10] logger sewell: it would have to be for privite sims off by themselves
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: prim physics can not go over borders
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: only the region that has the center of the prim gets physics
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: logger, right. I could be done on a per region basis.
[11:10] Warin Cascabel: That tangentially reminds me, is see_into_this_sim_from_neighbor broken? I set it to "false" on a couple of my regions, but I can still see into them even after restarting all of them.
[11:10] Andrew Hellershanks: s/I/it/
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: hmm I am not sure that option exists anymore
[11:11] logger sewell: ok and they can use 256 they would just need 4 of them
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: I wouldn't be surprised if it is broken - I don't think that setting has had much use for a while
[11:11] tx Oh: i have a stupid question maybe someone had it before: whats necessary to get higher resolutions for terrain textures?
[11:11] Warin Cascabel: Ah. well, that might explain it.
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: out of curiousity - what did you want it for?
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, this is for non-physical prims but they would still show in nearby regions so someone could make big prims and have them intrude in to a nearby prim and be annoying to neighbours.
[11:12] Unknown User waves at Arielle
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: yes you see them Andrew
[11:12] Arielle Popstar: Hi Andress :)
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: just can not interact physically
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: they are phantom
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: the bug that's bothering me quite a lot at the moment is the 'unknown user' one in chat
[11:12] Warin Cascabel: Justin: I've got a couple of regions up that don't fit the theme of the others in the cluster, just wanted to hide them so they weren't so jarring. I could move them, of course.
[11:12] Unknown User: I agree with Justin on that one.
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect thats a viewer issue justin, I think if the viewers had a seperate user name cache for each grid instead of sharing one
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: logger, yes, 4 would work. If the person owned a cluster of regions, the setting could be changed. 1024 size would be 4 sims wide or 4 high
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: that problem would go away
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: I think moving is probably the better option for now
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: Justin. i wish viewers did clear cahce for names more :O seems when i clear that unknown disapear
[11:13] Warin Cascabel: Justin: OK, thanks.
[11:13] logger sewell: I dont get the unknow user in chat for some reason
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: mmm, I rmember we had that discussion. A firestorm issue, right?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: any viewer issue
[11:13] tx Oh: justincc: yeah, the unknown user. the nice thing is, the tag above the head is mostly ok and in bubble chat the text appears above the right users.
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: they all do it
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm still using the old version of firestorm
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: even v1's
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: uh ok - somewhat surprising they didn't do it before now
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: the problem occurs when you visit or HG to multiple grids
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: it even happens in SL
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I did not see it until relatively recently and did not see it in other circumstances
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its not limited to OpenSimulator
[11:13] Fred.Appleby I don't see the unknown user issue using SL V3
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: you may not experience it
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its not gauranteed fail
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes i go weeks without noticing it
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: then all the sudden its happening a lot
[11:14] Fred.Appleby I do see it using Firestorm
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: if you clear cache it goes away
[11:14] Arielle Popstar: Singularity seems very p[rone to it
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: urrrrgh
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence was nice because it had a Clear User Cache option
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: so it only cleared out user name cache only
[11:15] tx Oh: fred: you should join the fridays party on close encounter, then you get some unknown users :-)
[11:15] Fred.Appleby the names above the avatar are always correct
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: The thing is, unknown user is a text used quite a lot in opensim
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: i asked if the could add option to clear name chace. lol but not heared anything
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: which makes me think it really comes from the server
[11:15] Fred.Appleby I will do that
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: well ya it very well could be happening because of something in opensim
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: where was "Unknown user" showing up? I don't recall seeing it in Singularity.
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i do know that if i log into osgrid and then into SL
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i can make it happen
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: it shows up in text chat. For instance, one person right now shows up as 'unknown user' for me
[11:16] Tiffany Magic: Nebadon is always "unknown user" in my chat. *smile*
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. Were you in another grid before being here?
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: but I believe that for other people their name shows up correctly, so it's not a consistent issue across all viewers
[11:16] Tiffany Magic: Has been for a long time.
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: or evne installations
[11:16] Neovo Geesink: Hopefully not me I guess...
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya, ive seen it happen in just about ever viewer
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I see names for everyone here. No "unknown user"
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: maybe worth clearing your name cache then to see if that 'fxies' it?
[11:16] tx Oh: on a fridays party we had about 4 or 5 UU's
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: HG does make it worse
[11:16] tx Oh: with different browsers
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: i can say that for sure
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: I have only seen it in HG sims so far, though tbh I don't log in to a lot of sims :)
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: the real culprit is visiting multiple grids
[11:17] Unknown User: I only come here and to my grid ATM.
[11:17] tx Oh: yes, UU's are from HGnauts
[11:17] Tiffany Magic: Justin... I will try that. Wasn't a big concern to me, to be honest. I'm more concerned with not being able to climb stairs or sit on prims without a script in them. lol
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Can definitely be a problem with textures after jumping between grids. I've seen that before.
[11:17] Teravus Ousley mostly vists here and a dev system also
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: I have seen that too Andrew
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: where textures turn like rainbow zebra
[11:18] Teravus Ousley uses different UUIDs though.. so probably doesn't have the same problem
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: it happens with my Universal Campus
[11:18] Kayaker Magic: I loose textures going back and forth between grids also
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: if i log into a Universal Campus on 1 grid
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: HG is very common to get unknown user :(
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: and then log into a unversal campus on another grid
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: Tiffany, The stools in my library have no script in them and you can sit fine. I use a script to set sit position and then remove the script.
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: a bunch of the textures get screwed up
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: they turn like this rainbow zebra stripe pattern
[11:19] Unknown User: Magic Seat works well. I think thats what its called.
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Andress, Magic Seat?
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: thats still scripted
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: I think she means being able to walk up to any prim and sit on it
[11:19] Fred.Appleby I visit between 10 and 15 grids and standalones, and with SL V3 I don not see unknown user
[11:19] Unknown User: Yes Neb but its nice because you can remove it after.
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt work in OpenSim
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, rainbow stripe? I think I've seen that in the past but not for a long time.
[11:19] Tiffany Magic: Yes, Andrew... but, would be nice to just be able to sti on a step.... or (hold your breath) Sit two avatars on one prim.
[11:20] tx Oh: the sit target is usually stored with the object.
[11:20] tx Oh: but it may happen that the sit target disappear
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: tx, right.
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: or a bad default setting.
[11:20] Richardus Raymaker: Fred, tried firestorm on linux. cursor is still 1 character wrong in lsl editor for me. so not usefull if you need to scipt
[11:21] tx Oh: no clue about higher resolution terrain textures? bad idea?
[11:21] Unknown User: Im having good luck sticking with Singularity, more I jump around, seems more problems crop up.
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Have two people ever been able to sit on the same prim in SL? I'm not sure that is possible.
[11:21] Fred.Appleby I only use windows for the viewer, simulators we use both platforms
[11:21] Teravus Ousley: :)
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: tx Oh you can already do higher resollution textures with Firestorm
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: but the problem is it still repeats the same amount of times
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: the tiles dont get larger
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: two people can sit on a prim but they probably don't get nicely placed
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: they just more dense
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: LL terrain is horrible
[11:22] tx Oh: oh, really? well, we need more porters for kokua. but just get the better features over.
[11:22] tx Oh: :-)
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: best solution is mesh terrains
[11:22] Kayaker Magic: Andrew: With a scrit you can sit many avtars on the head of a prim
[11:22] BlueWall Slade is online.
[11:22] Warin Cascabel: Andrew, I dimly remember having a bunch of people sit on different faces of a cube in SL.
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: justin, if a prim has a sit target can more than one person still sit on one prim?
[11:22] Unknown User: I really dislike the heavy LOD on mesh
[11:22] Sarah Kline: would be really sensible to have tiling control on land textures like you do prims
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: Kayaka in opensim ? intresting scipt to have
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, ok. I could see that.
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: But people like to sit on things that do not have scripts in them.
[11:23] tx Oh: but you can't edit or script mesh terrains :-)
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes, though the subsequent people get placed in probably not great positions
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: i suppose that would be good Sarah, problem is that would probably require new protocols and major viewer mod
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. I may have to try that and see what happens
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: what i hate about the LL terrain textures is tehy are random
[11:23] Kayaker Magic: Ah, there are some mantis' about sitting that will allow many avatars on a single prim, but not in OpenSim yet
[11:23] tx Oh: sarah: thats the next question
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah !
[11:23] Sarah Kline: the viewer could do with updating lol...but they would break so much
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: you can log in 3 viewers side by side, and each viewer you see different terrain texture pattern
[11:24] Tiffany Magic: All I know is that I remember seeing friends sitting on a step, for example, and being able to go and sit next to them.
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, not a problem if everyone was getting the same random seed
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: they put all that effort into making sure everyone sees the same physics results
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: but then they botch terrain
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: never understood that
[11:24] BlueWall Slade: you can catch teh CHANGED_LINK in changed event and set a new sit target to allow them to sit on another spot
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: well, one could possibly have a viewer that signals that it's willing to use an alternative terrrain system. But that would be a lot of work
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon, its shame there not a bit more terrain settings and textures. would be nice to have more texture levels for every 4096sqm
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, it came from SL 'nuff said ;-)
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, a lot of work to do terrain differnetly :)
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Mesh Terrains!
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: you can do it now
[11:25] Kayaker Magic: In SL, even if a prim has a sittarget, a second person can sit o the prim, they get a position hear where they clicked.
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: man, mesh terrains are a hack and a half
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: and its far far faaaar superior to anything we could ever provide at the viewer level
[11:25] Unknown User: Can you adjust the LOD when importing Neb?
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: yes you can
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: kayaker: yes, positioning is poor when there is no sit target. It comes down to a ray tracing issue I believe
[11:25] Teravus Ousley: Or lack there-of
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I wanted to make a region look like Myst Island. A mesh terrain would give me more control of the look of the land.
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yes :)
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ray casting actually
[11:25] Unknown User: Ill have to experiment, see if Singularity allows me to select what lod level
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry yes, ray casting
[11:26] Marcus Llewellyn: Mesh LOD is as good as you want to make it. ;) If you allow the viewer to generate LODs, it's not gonna be as nice. For the best results, you should consider supplying models for each LOD.
[11:26] Neovo Geesink: Mesh terrain, That would bring people on Non-Mesh capable viewers to a faulty experience when they go into such SIMs. I had to leave Imprudence for Phoenix in order to see Mesh...
[11:26] Teravus Ousley: .. as there's no raycasting except against the OBB which doesn't take into account the actual visual mesh
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: i have a nice mesh terrain
[11:26] tx Oh: but you can't script a earth quake with mesh terrain :-)
[11:26] Unknown User: Ok Marcus you answered my question :)
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: hmm... Use the region creation date or registration date as the seed for terrain generation routines.
[11:26] Tiffany Magic: I have a question for the group when you are ready for it. Don't want to interrupt the current topics.
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: The whole terrain blending based on height has always been a bit of a pain
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: tbh, I think you should just go ahead
[11:27] Kayaker Magic: It is not like there IS only ONE topic
[11:27] tx Oh: i like to program shifting sand dunes
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: nope. Often have several topics flying around at once.
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: creating an agenda is too much work :)
[11:28] Tiffany Magic: We have a ver few account in VH that have a horrible problem getting their inventories to load. It can take up to an hour to load... or stops and never finishes at all. It is NOT a common problem, but seems to affect only certain avatars.
[11:28] logger sewell: yes Kayaker is one such avatar :-)
[11:28] Unknown User waves at Tiffany
[11:29] Tiffany Magic waves at Andress
[11:29] Neovo Geesink: Could it be the Asset Servers where those Avatars are linked to / reside on?
[11:29] Arielle Popstar: maybe to do with broken udp fallback?>
[11:29] Tiffany Magic: We have tested these avatars by logging into them ourselves, and the inventories still won't load.
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: with both viewer 1 and viewer 3?
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: could be how mysql is configured for inventory server
[11:30] Tiffany Magic: Justin: Yes. With as many as 3 or 4 viewers.
[11:30] logger sewell: I have tried to go into the avatars from my end and it's the same thats what has confused me
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: have you tried saving the iar and loading it onto a complete separate installation?
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, if it was a MySQL config issue I would expect the problem to be more common
[11:31] BlueWall Slade: is there anything common between the avatas?
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: are these avatars inventories large?
[11:31] BlueWall Slade: Home regions, etc.?
[11:31] Teravus Ousley: How would you describe the size of the user's inventories when compared to.. say other user's inventories?
[11:31] Richardus Raymaker: i know in the past inventory loaded slow for me to. i think its something network releated
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: interesting questions
[11:31] Tiffany Magic: NOBODY in the grid has an inventory larger than mine. *smile*
[11:31] Unknown User grins
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: here is mysql configuration
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:32] logger sewell: no not really and i have done one buy saving the iar and deleting the avatar and remaking the accout
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: this is what i use on my local server
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: but its very very similar to how osgrid is configured
[11:32] Tiffany Magic: The two worst account work together on some projects.... but... they are not connected by ISP or anything else.
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: possibly identical
[11:32] Marcus Llewellyn: Sorry, I was paying attention to RL. But my simulators experience the same issue with inventory.
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: if you save the iar and load it onto a standalone system that would indicate whether it's specific to your setup or some general issue with the inventory
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: me too and it has been goping on for almost a year
[11:33] Marcus Llewellyn: I described it to Neb on IRC quite a long time ago, but since I hadn't seen anyone else with the issue, I presumed it was something on my end.
[11:33] Arielle Popstar: i thought it was only osgrid network but being on Metro i see the same thing
[11:33] tx Oh: maybe it's one item in the inventory with strange setting
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, ty. I'll look at those settings later.
[11:33] logger sewell: the only thing I can think of is I've been getting this a lot lately
[11:33] logger sewell: [BASE HTTP SERVER]: Handler not found for http request POST /assets/
[11:34] Arielle Popstar: loads on plaza's but on home server connections including my own it will not
[11:34] Marcus Llewellyn: I always get some slow inventory requests. And wheni t's just me on the simulator, it's fine. But if anyone else shows up who hasn't a fully loaded inventory, millisecond times shoot up to insane heights.
[11:34] BlueWall Slade: those Robust error messages are bogus
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: another thing to try
[11:34] logger sewell: thats in the robust and it will thow that for a few lines while the robust loads
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i remember this fixing other people
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in your Robust.ini
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: your mysql connection string
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: change it to look like this
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ConnectionString = "Data Source=localhost;Database=xxxxxxxxxxx;User ID=xxxxxxxxxx;Password=xxxxxxxxxxx;Connect Timeout=28800;Command Timeout=28800;"
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: add the timeouts
[11:35] Arielle Popstar: in testing with Melanie she found it was an issue with udp fallback code in opensim
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: long requests could be timing out sliently
[11:35] logger sewell: ok we'll try that thanks
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: we run osgrid like this
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, that message about "POST /assets/" I have seen when using two of the "default" settings in an ini file.
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: i really dont know if any of this stuff will help
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: but cant hurt to try
[11:35] Marcus Llewellyn: I never see the slow asset messages. Only slow inventory ones.
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, would that be for all connection strings or just the one for the main grid database?
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: slow messages are not necessarily bad
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: any process that takes more than 3 seconds to complete
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: the simulator prints it on console
[11:36] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          ac6dcd3: 2013-05-07 07:14:10 -0700 (Unix/Mono)
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Intel guys added that for debugging purposes
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: they are not errors
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: Whenit comes to inventory, it can get very bad. when there's more than one person, requests can take minutes (I'm not kidding), and the simulator slows so much that's it's unusable.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: it does however indicate things are taking a bit of time
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: those do show real problems though
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: if requests are taking a long time then there is a bottleneck
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yes, but they are not fatal issues generally
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: unless your seeing like 100000ms
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: or something absurd
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: if its like 5000ms
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I see those slow POST messages when enabling RegistryLocation and ConfigDirectory under [Setup] in Robust.ini (even when they are just the default ".")
[11:37] Marcus Llewellyn: And I've seen those.
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not a real problem
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: any long request is an issue really
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: were talking about potentially global networks
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: its not always bad
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: but possibly 3 seconds is a little aggressive for some things
[11:38] Tiffany Magic: Any idea why it would only affect a few avatars and not the rest?
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: no, that's a mystery
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect perhaps these avatars might have a folder with a lot of stuff in them
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: who knows
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: see which viewers they using
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I would presume there is some difference
[11:39] tx Oh: i guess it's a broken item in the inventory they both share
[11:39] Arielle Popstar: and network speeds they have available
[11:39] Marcus Llewellyn: When I first noticed the issue, I tries a whole zoo of viewers.
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: I do recall however tacking those timeouts onto the mysql connection string did fix that for people
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: that shoudln't matter for simply fetching inventory metadata
[11:39] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: although who knows - maybe something broken could cause an iassue
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: you might also dig into their folder structure
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: make sure there is no corruption
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: bad folder structure can do all kinds of odd things
[11:40] tx Oh: maybe a link loop
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: nebadon you mean packed inventory items ? because 7K is not hugh butr it where in the past terrible slow
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: so first of all, how do you know inventory loading is slow in these instances?
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: on my own sim, on plaza it where fine'
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: no packed items would have no effect on inventory loading
[11:41] Marcus Llewellyn: That's not something I can check... this occurs on my OSgrid simulators. I can't check anything on grid services side.
[11:41] tx Oh: but if you can make a proper iar...
[11:41] Tiffany Magic: Justin: Are you asking me that question?
[11:41] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: yes
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: imp and astra are the best viewers if inventory is slow to load
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: those probably both use UDP inventory
[11:42] Tiffany Magic: Justin: The people complain about inventory not loading, or taking forever. Logger and I have logged into their accounts and tried to get the inventory to load and see that it is a serious issue. It took Logger three hours to get one person's inventory back up.
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be considerably slower than HTTP inventory
[11:42] Arielle Popstar: yes exactly Neb
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: astra, have so a bunch of problems to
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: right, but I want to know how you know its slow
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: when you try it yourself
[11:43] Marcus Llewellyn: When it happens on my sims, I see slow inventory fetch requests. They start out over 3 seconds, and quickly climb, until they're delayed by minutes. 100000ms+ times. The simulator becomes bogged down to the point where movement isn't possible.
[11:43] tx Oh: have you looked at the IAR file? tar jtvf bla.iar ?
[11:43] Arielle Popstar: actually it isnt is only marginally slower when http fetch is working proper
[11:43] tx Oh: aeh, tar ztvf bla.iar i mean
[11:43] Tiffany Magic: Justin: When an inventory of 6500 items takes three hours to load, it tells me that is slow.
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: please tell me exactly what happens
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: is is that you see some text saying x of 6500 items have loaded and this increements really slowly?
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: for instance
[11:44] Tiffany Magic: Yes
[11:44] Arielle Popstar: yes for me
[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: Ditto. Plus the simulator console messages.
[11:45] Tiffany Magic: Like one item at a time, every couple minutes. And that is only if it doesn't just stop after about 10 items.
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: and in opensim on every relog it has to fetch approximately 2000 items
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and this is on mono or window?
[11:45] Marcus Llewellyn: It occurs on both platforms.
[11:45] Arielle Popstar: even when logged in minutes before with full inventory
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: is there a mantis open for this issue?
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, In Tiffany's case, Windows
[11:46] Tiffany Magic: Agreed, Arielle. Clearing cache is a scary adventure for these avatars.
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: lol it is
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: i been complaining about this for a year
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: so?
[11:46] tx Oh: last time i had this issue with very slow loading inventory was: my umts provides switched me to gprs because my account got low :-(
[11:46] Arielle Popstar: i suspect it happened around january of last year
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: spray it on tthe virtual wall as gravity tiffany :)
[11:47] Tiffany Magic: Excuse me??
[11:47] Unknown User blinks.
[11:47] Arielle Popstar: from Feb6/2012 onwards i had to make the sandbox my home to load inventory
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: if there's no mantis then I can't begin to investigate it
[11:47] Andrew Hellershanks: tell them they are too near a black hole and time has been affected ;-)
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: tiffany "my inventory is slow" nice gravity
[11:48] Marcus Llewellyn: I don't see a mantis that matches this issue. I thought I was the only one with the problem.
[11:48] logger sewell: same here Marcus
[11:48] Teravus Ousley is confused at the converation between Richardus and Tiffany
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: Arielle, did you open a mantis for it if you have been seeing the issue for about a year?
[11:48] Arielle Popstar: shrugs...ii only seen it happen in osgrid back then so assumed it an osgrid issue
[11:49] logger sewell: I think Kayaker did a Matis on the issue but he had a problem at work and had to leave
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: never see the issue on my standalone
[11:49] Arielle Popstar: gridmode or standalone mode
[11:49] logger sewell: well we have over 150 gig of assets right now
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: assets wont effect inventory load
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: unrelated to the problem
[11:50] logger sewell: ok
[11:50] Tiffany Magic: [11:01 AM] Unable to rez: problem accessing inventory or locating assets
[11:01 AM] Unable to rez: problem accessing inventory or locating assets
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: frankly, it sounds like the sheer numbre of inv requests are overwhelming something
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: however because you have so much data in your mysql server
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: Melanie put in patches for singularity and opensim to try alleviate the issue
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: you might need to pump up the configurations
[11:50] Tiffany Magic: Iget that every single time I log into OSgrid. Is that an issue?
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: it would be really good if you can test what i sent you
[11:50] Unknown User: Oh I have had that happen when I HP with an item.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: and see if that helps
[11:50] Arielle Popstar: she verified the lack of udp fallback in both the viewers and opensim if i remember right
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: ConnectionString = "Data Source=localhost;Database=xxxxxxxxxxx;User ID=xxxxxxxxxx;Password=xxxxxxxxxxx;Connect Timeout=28800;Command Timeout=28800;"
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: these things
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: if your running a stock mysql configuration with that level of data
[11:51] BlueWall Slade: does mysql havea decent log?
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: you might have issues
[11:51] Teravus Ousley: It's possible the message that you get when you log into osgrid is an old wearable asset.. those occasionally got lost in the past when changing their names in inventory.
[11:51] Marcus Llewellyn: When I tried to clear up the issue I had myself (and a friend) try HTTP and UDP explicitly. It didn't seem to make a difference, as I remember.
[11:51] Fred.Appleby Quick Question? If HTTP Textures deselected at the viewer does this override any opensim setting. therefore use UDP?
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: in FS and sing the udp switch didnt work
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: the viewer determines what is used
[11:52] Teravus Ousley: That particular bug was fixed, but.. old lost wearab les will still generate that message upon login.
[11:52] Arielle Popstar: thats why Mel made a pattch Marcus
[11:52] Fred.Appleby thank you
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: the simulator determines the default
[11:53] logger sewell: Thanks Neb I'll get Andrew to try that
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: k if you guys have questions about settings let me know on irc
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: i'll see what i can do
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: is robust on windows or linux?
[11:53] Unknown User: Nice to see you all Im heading back to Ruby.
[11:53] logger sewell: windows for us
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: simhost had same problems
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: with inventory
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: on windows servers
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: and i beleive the connection string modification is what fixed it
[11:54] tx Oh: ruby?
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: how to fix for sqlite regions?
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not a region issue
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: its probably robust
[11:54] Arielle Popstar: well then why do plaza's work and smaller regions dont for loading?
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: that's possible, if it's somehow failing under the weight of a large number of inventory requets
[11:55] logger sewell: now that makes sense
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: robust is probably taking really long to requrest the info and timing out
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. whats wrong with the string then. offcorse i use linux for robust
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and it fails silently
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: be my guess
[11:55] Arielle Popstar: some regions i have no issue loading whereas others within the same grid, i do
[11:56] Arielle Popstar: if robust all should be the same
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn: Yeah... plazas work fine. Another reason I presumed it was something on my end.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: there very well could be multiple issues here too
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: i think that depends on distance from assets server arielle. offcorse something strange with intenret. i have sllow webpages and pages that load normal and other days its different again.
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: I also need to go over region ini settings as we are missing the map tiles on some viewers.
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: sqlite could be your problem
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:56] Fred.Appleby But Tiffany already said she has the largest inventory, with no issue
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: its very slow
[11:56] Marcus Llewellyn uses MySQL.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i probably have the largets inventory here of anyone
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: and i never have problems on any of the regions
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: i do know too
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: i disagree on a smallish region Neb....sqlite is faster on low prim regions
[11:57] Marcus Llewellyn: I keep my inventory at a svelt 8k or so.
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: that your router could be part of the problem
[11:57] Arielle Popstar: thats true
[11:57] logger sewell: Tiffany has about 45000 in her inventory I think
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: LL has determined that many routers cant handle the load the viewer throws at the them
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: they have been working on improving that
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: but they probably have a lot more to do
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: but then as we are hearing it affects a number of routers
[11:58] Marcus Llewellyn: I have one of the router's on LL list of problem children. It doesn't apply to me... I don't run stock firmware.
[11:58] tx Oh: my inventory has somewhat over 4k items
[11:58] logger sewell: well our data and region servers are all on the same data center with one gig swtches
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i am about 45k too
[11:58] Arielle Popstar: and then there is the aspect that none of this is an issue for me on s/l
[11:58] obey firecaster: :)
[11:58] obey firecaster: way to light
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: my inventory gets to about 22k
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: and pauses for about 3 minutes
[11:59] obey firecaster: now that is clost to mine
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: then shoots up to 45k
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: the thing is with a complex system like osgrid, this stuff could be affected by time of day, number of other requetss, etc.
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: Marcus, where is that list ?
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are many variables
[11:59] Neovo Geesink: I had a Sitecom Router and It could not coop, Even it had both Gigabit LAN and WAN port... I have switched to Dlink, and have no such issues at this moment.
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: what I really need to do is add more stats about time taken to service requests for inventory, etc.
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: and while people appear to be having similar issues, they may not be
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: it is pretty consistent Justinn
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: we cant assume they are
[11:59] BlueWall Slade: are the slow inventories consistent across all regions?
[11:59] Arielle Popstar: i log in all times of the day
[12:00] Teravus Ousley: hmm, maybe the viewer grabs a bunch of small equests and then grabs larger bluulk requests after the main structure is laid out.
[12:00] obey firecaster: is this specific about the network today or in genreasl
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: no Blyue...not for me.
[12:00] logger sewell: yes for us I have tried to load them on all the region servers
[12:00] obey firecaster: genral
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle I can say without a doubt many times I have watch your connection here at meetings
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: If several people are having slow inventory load one of you needs to mantis the problem.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: and seen you constatnly re-requesting info
[12:00] tx Oh: inventory requests go directly from the client to the robust and same way back?
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: bad network connection basically
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: the viewer maybe
[12:00] BlueWall Slade: inventory travesl through the region
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: There is a mantis of sorts at
[12:00] obey firecaster: to day there is DDOs atatch on the internet
[12:00] BlueWall Slade: travels even
[12:00] Arielle Popstar: i am too busy talking to request stufff :)
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes i see your connection like 50 times more re-requests than anyone here
[12:01] Teravus Ousley: It would be useful if people who have slow inventories try proxing their network connection with a program like Fiddler.
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: where I do want to look at Austin's issue - it's just that I've been on holiday and buy with other things for quite a few weeks
[12:01] tx Oh: blueslade: thats what i thought.
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: obey, DDO's?
[12:01] obey firecaster: denial of sevices
[12:01] obey firecaster: i work fo rhp
[12:01] obey firecaster: for HP
[12:01] obey firecaster: we had a memo come thor
[12:01] BlueWall Slade: (txOh I made an update to your python console client)
[12:01] Arielle Popstar: is my connection doing it today Neb?
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: my first step will probably be to add more statistics to something, probably number of inventory requests being received at the robust end first of all
[12:01] Teravus Ousley: Fiddler is a HTTP local HTTP proxy that allows you to examine the HTTP stream
[12:01] Marcus Llewellyn: Thanks, justin. :)
[12:02] tx Oh: and if you are on a region with a bad connection to the asset server you can suffer from slow loading, right
[12:02] Teravus Ousley: using it, you could save a fiddler http stream archive and send it to someone for investigation.
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: yes Arielle
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: look
[12:02] tx Oh: bluewall: thank you!
[12:02] BlueWall Slade: thank you :)
[12:02] Arielle Popstar: my inventoryu is loaded and my ping is suprisingly good today here
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: 1700 packets resent for you
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: thats like 20 times more than next person
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: i am on the newest sing
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: there is something odd about your network for sure
[12:03] obey firecaster: i wil pul the memo if any one want to read
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: are you on wifi?
[12:03] Marcus Llewellyn: Richardus: I can't seem to find an actual list. But Belkin G and Linksys WRT routers with stick firmware can all have issues with heavy HTTP traffic.
[12:03] obey firecaster: yes
[12:03] obey firecaster: a
[12:03] Arielle Popstar: yes atm
[12:03] obey firecaster: packet monitor
[12:04] Arielle Popstar: but comp is 2 feet from the router
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: ok. not have both of them
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: obey, oh. You meant DOS I didn't understand the use of two D's.
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: unless it means deliberate.
[12:04] obey firecaster: that is how the memo was stuctured
[12:04] obey firecaster: DDOS
[12:04] BlueWall Slade: I was thinking about a filter for the logs too to grab and parse lines
[12:04] obey firecaster: solar winds
[12:04] Warin Cascabel: Justin, I've been playing with the osNpc functions - great job. Is there any way to have the script get a callback (or chat on a particular channel) when the NPC arrives at its destination, or should I just poll its location until it arrives?
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: running a simulator over wifi will always end bad
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[12:04] Nebadon Izumi: viewer has better odds
[12:04] tx Oh: oh! another interesting question: there is this neat osConsoleCommand function. it would be nice if we could 'tee' the output via a callback or so (like http requests does) to inworld??
[12:05] BlueWall Slade: there is an old version that will work on Linux
[12:05] Arielle Popstar: the viewer is on wifi machine, not my sims
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: at the moment you have to use a script in an attachment for that kind of thing
[12:05] BlueWall Slade: gridproxy
[12:05] obey firecaster: oh cool
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: well running a client on wifi cant be better. hehe
[12:05] obey firecaster: i like that
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya it could very well be the wifi causing the massive amount of resent packets
[12:05] Warin Cascabel: Justin: OK, thanks.
[12:05] BlueWall Slade: tcpdump?
[12:05] Marcus Llewellyn: Warin: llDetectVolume on an invisible prim at the target is one possibility.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: but every meeting i always notice your resent packets are like 20+ times more than everyone else
[12:05] BlueWall Slade: << save for inspection under wireshark
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: wifi can be dodgy, particular in terms of lost packets and latency
[12:05] Warin Cascabel: Good idea, Marcus.
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: always worth trying a wired connection to see if that makes any difference
[12:06] Neovo Geesink: It depends allso on the distance to your Router as how far the Wifi degrades...
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya if your that close to router, just wire it up :)
[12:06] Marcus Llewellyn: Scripted attachments on an NPC are problematic, as you must open scripts (and any OSSL) open to everyone in the simulator.
[12:06] Richardus Raymaker: i still like to see remoteadmin command for robust. at least so you can do shutdown with script. the rest console is terrible. tired it, but it throw me out of the console so i lost all control
[12:06] obey firecaster: yes that and arget
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't be surprised if it's buggy
[12:06] obey firecaster: is goot for look at packets
[12:06] BlueWall Slade: Richardus, see the update I put on the wiki today
[12:06] obey firecaster: good*
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: what do you mean?
[12:07] BlueWall Slade: the python console client
[12:07] BlueWall Slade: our ConsoleClient.exe is bahhhhh
[12:07] Marcus Llewellyn: NPCs can't join a group, and can't be granted OSSL via UUID. So if they're wearing scripted attachments, you can't restrict scripts to a group, or OSSL functions to a user/group.
[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: ok. im busy with other things. so not looked there. sunds like in the 0.7.6 its present. looking later
[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: hi mercelia
[12:08] Mercalia Beck: hello
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: How close is 076 to release?
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: unless you know the url bluewall
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: marcus: okay, that's good to know - have to think about that one
[12:08] tx Oh: marcus: can't you define ACL's in the ini's ?
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: well , the first thing would be to star tthe releas eprocess, which hopefully shouldn't be too far off
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Mercalia
[12:08] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: actually doing a release would be at least a month after that starts, as usual
[12:08] Marcus Llewellyn: You can, Tx, but not for NPCs. NPC UUIDs are transient, not permanent.
[12:08] Mercalia Beck: seems to be a bug in diva group handling re enable scripts for groups
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to go and eat now or I will be in trouble
[12:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok. Just curious.
[12:09] tx Oh: oh, right
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I have some errands to run so I need to go.
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: What would be nice is if an NPC inhereted its owners allowed functions/group.
[12:09] logger sewell: bye Justin tc
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: bye, justin
[12:09] BlueWall Slade: take care JCC
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, everyone.
[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: im saying before summer i think 0.7.6 is ready. i keep july as date. but you neve rknow
[12:09] Marcus Llewellyn: take care, justin. :)
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks
[12:09] logger sewell: and Andrew
[12:09] Neovo Geesink: Bye Andrew
[12:09] Tiffany Magic: Thank you Justin
[12:09] Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:09] Warin Cascabel: Bye, Justin
[12:09] Sarah Kline: byes
[12:09] Teravus Ousley: TTYL :)
[12:09] Tiffany Magic: Bye Justin and Andrew
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey waves
[12:09] tx Oh: bye justin
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks just wants the new BulletSim code
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