Chat log from the meeting on 2013-03-12

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[10:56] Robert Adams: it is a little empty here, though
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya the problem is time chance in EU is like 2 weeks apart
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: change*
[10:56] Vivian Klees: it should but the rest of the world isn't for another 2 weeks
[10:57] Robert Adams: my bedside clock changing daylight savings time automatically but it is old enough that it uses the old schedule
[10:57] Robert Adams: it will be an hour off again in a few weeks
[10:58] Vivian Klees: well maybe we are worrying about nothing
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: hello Andrew
[10:58] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, nebadon
[10:58] Master Dubrovna: Hi all
[10:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Been busy last several days. I finally got the Windows side of my machine to boot instead of just giving a BSOD.
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[10:59] Andrew Hellershanks: Then I discover it had no network connection. Finally fixed that too. I think my WIndows side of the machine is finally in good shape after six months of the BSOD issue.
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: I decided to have another go at fixing it and got it. Now I will be able to use Stored Inventory once more to move some of my things between grids.
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: what was the cause?
[11:00] Vivian Klees: nice
[11:00] Andrew Hellershanks: BSOD was due to video driver issue. I switched to new card, then original card, then new card again when original card finally developed a problem making it unusable.
[11:01] Andrew Hellershanks: I removed and reinstalled video drivers and that seems to have fixed the problem.
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: cool
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ok brb i need to relog on new viewer
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: have to test Optimized 64 bit Kokua viewer for NickyP
[11:03] Now playing: luke the wizard vs. tha flow - freestyle clinical reflection
[11:03] Vivian Klees: wb
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: After a couple weeks messing about with power supply issues, changing distros, and fixing Windows, I will finally be able to get back to doing useful stuff once more.
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: thanks
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: seems faster so far
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: I just need to get used to CHUI
[11:04] Vivian Klees: hop links fixed in that one?
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not sure
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: this is first time i tried
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: he only mentioned that it has new 64 bit optimizations from Firestorm
[11:05] Vivian Klees: :(
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: how can i test?
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: Kokua is what used to be Imprudence?
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: yes Andrew
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: though there is not really much that ties the 2 viewers together
[11:05] Vivian Klees: tp out and try to tp back from hop link in chat
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: other than some of the same devs and they share website
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I should try it. I can't run Imprudence any more on this machine due to a known bug that they haven't fixed.
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: how do i make a hop link
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: i have no idea how to do that
[11:06] Vivian Klees: it auto generates
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: where?
[11:06] Vivian Klees: in main chat
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: it will print in chat when i teleport?
[11:06] Vivian Klees: hop:// Plaza/138/126/38
[11:06] Vivian Klees: similar to that
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: that URL looks broken
[11:07] Vivian Klees: hop highlighted?
[11:07] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder if the XML files are compatible between Kokua and Imprudence for object export/import
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hop:// is greyed out
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: but the rest of the link is a hyperlink
[11:07] Vivian Klees: it's not fied then
[11:07] logger sewell: Hi All
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: k
[11:07] Vivian Klees: fixed
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: hello Logger
[11:08] Vivian Klees: the viewer will be useless without hop being fixed
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i assume its something they know about?
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: i have never used the hop address before
[11:09] Vivian Klees: I keep bringing it up and no one wants to listen
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: you spoken to NickyP?
[11:09] Vivian Klees: directly
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: do you know if there is a redmine ticket filed?
[11:09] Vivian Klees: I gave up following Kokua even before Jacek left
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya but what viewer is better?
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: Firestorm runs like crap for me
[11:10] Vivian Klees: same here
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: there really isnt any project that is really any better than Kokua
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: atleast for me in Linux anyway
[11:10] Vivian Klees: I still use Zen
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: its basically Kokua or nothing
[11:11] logger sewell: The only one I have any luck with is singularity
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess I could use Singularity
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: but i don't like 1.x viewers
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: graphics are not nearly as good
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: Kokua doesnt even run for me in 64 bit suse
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: won't even start
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: err Imprudence
[11:11] Vivian Klees: yeah it looks clodgy
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: im basically stuck on Kokua for now
[11:12] Vivian Klees: I noticed youtube took down your buck dancing video
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: it did?
[11:12] Vivian Klees: can't find it
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: I didnt get an email
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: let me look
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: its there
[11:13] Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I'm finding singularity ok on Linux. Is Kokua a v3 based viewer?
[11:13] Vivian Klees: yes
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: I was gonna say, normally they email me and get bitchy when i have a DMCA violation
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: vivian, ty
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its funny
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: I uploaded a NASA video which is Public Domain
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i got a DMCA take down from some news company
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: assholes
[11:14] Master Dubrovna: Did you educate them on what public domain is?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: wasnt even anything i ever heard of before
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: there was nothing i could do
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: ALl the buck bunny stuff is creative commons so there should be no issue with it.
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: the video was automatically removed by youtube
[11:15] OKC Racer v0.286x (super-tester 2): You are not the owner of this vehicle, but you can copy it and have your own to test in this sim.
[11:15] Master Dubrovna: dang
[11:15] OKC Racer v0.286x (super-tester 2): You are not the owner of this vehicle, but you can copy it and have your own to test in this sim.
[11:16] OKC Racer v0.296x (super-tester 2) whispers: Hit M for mouselook, page up and down for shifting, if you flip standing will flip car back on its wheels. type /2 listcolors to see available colors and /2 color <name> to change colors.
[11:16] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          1120bcf: 2013-03-09 14:15:14 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: wow that didnt go well
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: I like how Nebadon is too big to fit in the car
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: you need a convertible
[11:16] OKC Racer v0.296x (super-tester 2) whispers: Hit M for mouselook, page up and down for shifting, if you flip standing will flip car back on its wheels. type /2 listcolors to see available colors and /2 color <name> to change colors.
[11:16] OKC Racer v0.296x (super-tester 2): Burn Out
[11:17] OKC Racer v0.296x (super-tester 2) whispers: Hit M for mouselook, page up and down for shifting, if you flip standing will flip car back on its wheels. type /2 listcolors to see available colors and /2 color <name> to change colors.
[11:17] Vivian Klees: the only modern car with rabbit ears
[11:17] OKC Racer v0.296x (super-tester 2): Burn Out
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian: hehehe
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: tires work though
[11:18] Vivian Klees: oh oh
[11:18] Robert Adams: the car must get pretty good reception
[11:18] Vivian Klees: hi Dahlia
[11:18] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:18] Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[11:18] logger sewell: hey Dahlia
[11:19] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks wonders if we are showing our age by knowing what rabbit ears are for.
[11:19] Dahlia TrimbleDahlia Trimble throws an apple at Nebadon...
[11:19] Nebadon IzumiNebadon Izumi picks up apple and bites it
[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:19] logger sewell: we never had them we used tin foil
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: did you make the car model?
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: no but i heavily modified it
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: its a freebie from Blendswap
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i had to chop off a bunch of stuff
[11:21] Dahlia Trimble: ah ok
[11:22] Dahlia Trimble: small group today
[11:22] Vivian Klees: time change
[11:22] Dahlia Trimble: they probably all show up at end
[11:23] logger sewell: Neb is there anyway to get rid of the bounding box I tried to put the script in the seat of one but it ran on it's sid e
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: here is the original model
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: logger, probably not at the moment
[11:23] logger sewell: ok thanks
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: unfortunately sitting is very screwed up in opensimulator
[11:23] logger sewell: yeh I've noticed lol
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: sitting on child prims especially is bad
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it screws up the camera position
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: so the root prim needs to be very obvious
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its the only reason i do this
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: Justin cant make it until the end of this hour
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: seems EU doesnt change until March 31 this year
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: stupid DST
[11:26] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:26] Vivian Klees: petition to get rid of it
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: any cool stuff coming soon for Bulletsim Robert?
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: WE WANT MOAR COOL STUFFS
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: heh guess he is away :)
[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: busy making moar cool stuffs :)
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: next few weeks will probably be a little screwy for meeting until EU flips their time to, i totally forgot it was this week
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: I don't really have a whole lot to talk about this week myself, I have been crazy busy last couple weeks building big city models
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: anything anyone wanted to bring up?
[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: everyone is asleep
[11:33] Vivian Klees: not sleeping
[11:33] Robert Adams: zzzzz
[11:33] Sarah Kline: hi
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:33] Dahlia Trimble: hi
[11:34] logger sewell: Andrew is setting up the ini's for us and we are going to try 7.5 on production and see how it does but from the looks I think it will do ok
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is very likely Logger
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: It worked well here on OSgrid for most of the testing
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: the release should run very well
[11:35] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back
[11:36] logger sewell: yeh what it is with a closed grid we try to make sure all the bugs are fixed as it's a pain to update
[11:37] Sarah Kline: Justin on UK time? )
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[11:37] Sarah Kline: lol
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm reserving judgement until the switch is made and we test 075. 074 was supposed to be ok and it had lots of issues that meant a roll back to 073
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya that is one of the downsides of running releases
[11:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Releases are supposed to be ok. :-)
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes there is like 1 or 2 patches literally right after the release
[11:38] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks nods
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: that make things considerably better
[11:39] Vivian Klees: sp 1 sp2 sp3 )
[11:39] Andrew Hellershanks: The 3D modelling program I use got up to service release 9.
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: generally the releases to run well
[11:40] Andrew Hellershanks: Won't be any more as they are on to a new version of the program.
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: but i find master git usually runs better
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: majority of the time
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: its one reason i find it hard to use Divas distribution
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: even with her latest release
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: there is stuff missing i need
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: You do like playing with all the cool new toys. :-)
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: like being able to set your own map tiles in multi-region simulators
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: not in 0.7.5 release
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: so its not in divas either
[11:42] Andrew Hellershanks: I still have some thing to test/try with mesh objects before I can get in to dealing with movement using impulses, or doing pathfinding, or checking out windlight.
[11:43] Arielle.Popstar is that racer for bullet sim?>
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks: or more stuff with particles.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: I have been using Mesh a lot more lately
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: pathfinding?
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle yes its tuned for Bulletsim
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but it does work in ODE too
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: its just a little to fast and turns to sharply in ODE
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: i would eventually like to detect the physics engine
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: and make adjustments accordingly
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar nod
[11:44] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia:
[11:44] Arielle.Popstar that would be cool
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: but I am also a bit hesitant to do that, I probably will
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: oh test it in SL?
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar can i copy it?
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i would rather everyone just move to bulletsim
[11:45] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I thought it was coming to OS as well
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and ODE gets retired
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: sure grab a copy of the racer
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its not done by far, but you can give it a test
[11:45] Sarah Kline: pathfinding would be nice to play with and understand
[11:45] Arielle.Popstar how will the move to bulletsim effect scripts written for Ode?
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: they will likely need to be adjusted Arielle
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Nuts. The cat is calling for me.
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ODE was never right, so most of the adjustments people are making to make ODE work right, are quicky hacky
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: Bulletsim should work much closer to SL physics
[11:46] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar ty for the copy
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: no problem, hopefully bulletsim improves more soon
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its working quite well
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: but there is still some wierd stuff with the racer
[11:47] Arielle.Popstar the old racer scripts no longer seem to work even on Ode anymore
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: gets a little bouncy at times
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: and my recent testing of driving over a track made completely of prims
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: it did not go well
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: they work fine for me Arielle
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: the old racer wont work in bulletsim
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: but it works fine in ODE
[11:48] Arielle.Popstar nod...not sure what the issue is as this is even on my standalones
[11:48] Robert Adams: and I'm making more changed to Bulletsim... it will keep getting better
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: vehicles with sculpty or mesh wheels
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar they just fly off the sim or go directly to 0,0,0
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: will not work in Bulletsim at the moment
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: unless you do like I did
[11:49] Robert Adams: mesh on mesh is a little rough still
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: and force the tires to be phantom
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: via LSL
[11:49] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: my racers sculpty tires have a invisible sphere around them
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: those are the actual tires
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: the sculpty are just visual
[11:50] Arielle.Popstar are you still doing office hours for Bullet sim Robert?
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: back again
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: I think he is, I missed todays though
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar some people on other grids were wondering as they are playing with bullet sim
[11:52] Robert Adams: yes... we had a B ulletSim office hours this morning
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: I should be able to make next weeks no problem
[11:52] Arielle.Popstar ok i will let them know
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. Anyone remember the mono issue with last-btime not being accessible when installed to a directory not writable by users?
[11:53] Arielle.Popstar and apologies for diverting convo from pathfinding
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: mono does not need to be writeable
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: if your doing it in userspace
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: infact its probably best practice to make sure mono executables are not writeable or able to be modified
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: one could craft an application to modify mono using C#
[11:54] Robert Adams: I'm going to fill up Mantis with known BulletSim bugs and features not there yet so there is a list of whats being worked on
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: i usually compile mono into /opt
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: as root
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: then edit my users .bashrc to point to it
[11:54] Arielle.Popstar does Bullet have the rubber banding issue fixed for passengers?
[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: Ive done that, was able to have several versions available
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle, that is not a physics issue
[11:55] Andrew Hellershanks: mono 2.10.8 compiled and installed in /usr/local and the back end code throws an exception because that btime file isn't writeable.
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: that is a problem with our sit code
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: and the viewer
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: the sitting code for opensimulator is very bad
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: it needs to be completely rewritten
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: none of it works 100%
[11:56] Arielle.Popstar Ubit managed some sort of workaround and just wondered if that could be included for Bullety
[11:56] Andrew Hellershanks: is that code self-contained or is it scattered about in different files?
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: well like i said its not related to physics
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: any fix would fix both ODE and BulletSim
[11:57] Arielle.Popstar ok
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully we can look at some of that soon though
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: that would be good
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i suspect the problem is the viewer expects one thing and we are sending it something else
[11:58] Arielle.Popstar yes pretty cool for passengers
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: so the avatar sitting on child prims the viewer gets confused
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: and bounces between the child prim and root prim
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: thats why you see the jerking motion
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: viewer is being confused
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: if you sit on a child prim and go into mouselook
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: If forgot if I already asked this last week. Was center of gravity issues fixed in Bullet?
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: your view shots to the root prim
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: not the prim your sitting on
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: not yet Andrew
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: I think there is some work in there for it
[11:59] Arielle.Popstar ohh i see
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: k,ty
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: but its not live yet
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: Don't mind me if I repeat questions this week. My mind has been on all the computer issues I've been dealing with.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: no thats fine, keep reminding us
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: ok :-)
[12:00] Andrew Hellershanks: It would help my sleigh fly better.
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am sure it would help all vehicles
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hello, finally
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar .
[12:01] logger sewell: Hey Justin
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: ALthough surprisingly there was more prims behind the sitting position and the back end was higher than the front end. One would have expected the back end to be lower if COG was off.back end
[12:01] Arielle.Popstar Hi JustinCC
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya I think as it is now
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: s/.back end/./
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: its always root prim
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: is center of mass
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: no matter how big it is
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: or where its located
[12:02] Andrew Hellershanks: The root prim is the sitting prim in my sleigh.
[12:02] Robert Adams: I have worked a little on center-of-mass... it is almost there
[12:02] Robert Adams: when done, there will also be an LSL function to set the center-of-mass
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: see
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, Robert, In my fireworks object, gravity seems a little high, or vertical velocity is weak as the fireworks projectiles fall to the ground before exploding.
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: red prim is root
[12:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, I'll have to pass the code to you at some point.
[12:03] Robert Adams: that would be good, Andrew... I will compare SL fall rate and make BulletSIm to be close to that
[12:04] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, the fireworks object I was tyring to use is one of the default ones from SL that is in the hollow tube.
[12:04] Robert Adams: basically a ball that has ApplyImpulse applied to it to sent it into the air?
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't remember. I'd have to look at the script.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: it could be more than 1 prim
[12:05] Andrew Hellershanks: I think it uses llRezObject(At) with a positive value for vertical velocity.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: like a bottle rocket
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: a mortor would probably be a sphere or something
[12:06] Robert Adams: people have given me some guns to test so I can get ApplyImpulse calibrated between SL and BulletSim
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: cool
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i have a basic gun i can send you
[12:06] Andrew Hellershanks: What does llRezObect use for velocity vector?
[12:06] Sarah Kline: the Uzi shoots further in Bullet
[12:06] Sarah Kline: sim
[12:06] Robert Adams: justin made it
[12:07] Justin Clark-CaseyJustin Clark-Casey assumes a different justin
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: i think he means you made it to meeting
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: it's still the right time for me :)
[12:07] Nebadon IzumiNebadon Izumi pokes DST in the eyes
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: though if virtually everybody here is us then it makes sense to shift now
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar should be DST all the time
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: ya I totally forgot about time change
[12:08] Sarah Kline: HI Justin
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: my Android told me to come so i came
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[12:08] Robert Adams: There are some force maximums in SL that I don't enforce in BulletSim... one can send objects going pretty quickly
[12:08] Arielle.Popstar (afk)
[12:09] Robert Adams: I do wish LL has started SL in UTC.... but that's another discussion
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: ya SL probably limits a lot of stuff to limit greifer potential
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Set the meeting to be run at a tiven time in UTC as that doesn't change.
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: s/tiven/given/
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: well we do actually provide UTC times
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: but
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: tbhm that's qually confusing
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: :-)
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: my scheduling software doesnt let me set time in UTC
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: I would have to set my android to display UTC time always
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: which is really annoying
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: hello Allen
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, I bet Allen is europe then
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya anyone getting here now is either EU, or has an old Wind up clock they didnt fix yet
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:10] Allen Kerensky: no, I was just working on my region and Vivian K reminded me
[12:11] Allen Kerensky: anyone remember the gridwide dropdown LL used to use? we need that for OpenSim
[12:11] Andrew Hellershanks: My PDA does GMT but not UTC. More or less the same thing.
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: grid wide dropdown?
[12:12] Allen Kerensky: yes, LL used to warn people the grid went unstable and not to do transactions via a region message dropddown, but for ALL regions
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: oh, ya we used to have that ability
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: but I think it was removed
[12:12] Justin Clark-Casey: we did?
[12:12] Allen Kerensky: it needs to be un-removed hehe
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya long ago
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: but it didnt scale
[12:12] Nebadon Izumi: and was removed
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: also I recall there being some worry about being able to project things into peoples regions
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt secure
[12:13] Justin Clark-Casey: this must have been a very long time ago
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: years ago
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: if i recall the problem was anyone could send the packet
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: and spoof messages
[12:13] Nebadon Izumi: so it got removed
[12:14] Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt work well in open grid
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: well, that would sound like a case for designing it with security in mind
[12:14] Justin Clark-Casey: but yes, it's still not going to be great for an open grid
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably be better to build something with LSL
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: and have it talk a back end server
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: php or something
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: regions poll it every so often
[12:15] Nebadon Izumi: much harder to spoof that way
[12:15] Robert Adams: is there a group for this meeting? Something for annoucements and such?
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: the way it worked before robust would send a signal to all the regions
[12:16] Allen Kerensky: Snoopy Pfeffer has a system called OWI that sort of already does that
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: no we never started a group for this meeting
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: personally i would not rely on groups for anything
[12:16] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          1120bcf: 2013-03-09 14:15:14 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: groups just does not work well enough
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: you could possibly do it through RemoteAdmin but then everybody would need to implement the same password
[12:16] Nebadon Izumi: well how it should work
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: or we need a strongly system like public:private key authentication
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: grid admins should be able to set message on robust
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: the regions have a timer
[12:17] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks remembers he wanted to look at the new groups code.
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: like every 5 minutes they check for grid message
[12:17] Allen Kerensky: or use a grid IRC server which allocates a login/password/channel to each region
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: this no one can send a signal to the regions
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: and trigger a message
[12:17] Nebadon Izumi: regions are hard coded for a specific message URL
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: that method has its downsides too though
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: generates a lot of message traffic
[12:18] Nebadon Izumi: constantly polling a central server
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, though at least it means the serice end can be dumb
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: instead of the service needing intelligence to send data outwards to servers which might take a long time respond, not be there, etc.
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: another downside is its not exactly instant either
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: howver, at some point I will probably need a way to kick somebody from a grid from a central poitn
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: it would be whatever the polling time is
[12:19] Nebadon Izumi: 5-10-15 minutes whatever
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: which would need an outgoing message.
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: though in that case only one
[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: so, one thing I'm trying to thikn through at the moment is the teleport cancel button
[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: at this point,, there's a major race condition if you hit it at certain times during the tekleport before its disabled
[12:21] Justin Clark-Casey: your avatar ends up being unable to move
[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm just wondering if people regularly need to make use of the cancel button or not
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: i would say yes
[12:22] Allen Kerensky: i've tried it from time to time but it does seem like roulette
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: teleporting to wrong region
[12:22] Allen Kerensky: exactly
[12:22] Allen Kerensky: hit the wrong map tile
[12:22] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not something people use often, but I think we should assume they are
[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey: that would just mean a second teleport though, right?
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: especially if it can trigger race condition
[12:23] Andrew Hellershanks: some viewers have teleport history letting you get back to where you were before.
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: it might
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: there have been times ive been building
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and someone sent me a teleport request
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and i accidently accepted it
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and i quickly hit cancel
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: and not teleport
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: also if damage is on
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: when you die you get teleported
[12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: interestingly, cancel shouldn't actually work in that situation
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: my 1st instinct is to cancel
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: if i have enough time
[12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: teleport cancellation isn't hooked up to anyuthing in opensmi itself
[12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: but the viewer itself will assume you will be kept in your source region
[12:24] Justin Clark-Casey: are you saying that cancel works for you in those situations?
[12:24] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i cant say I have ever really experienced what your talking about
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: im just giving situtations when someone might want to cancel a teleport
[12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: right, but it will never work
[12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: or rather, it should never work right now
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: ah hmm
[12:25] Sarah Kline: pressing cancel usually messes me up
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya to be honest Ive not done it recently
[12:25] Justin Clark-Casey: cancel is not hooked up to anything so it has no effect other than making the viewer assume th teleport will stop
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: I know i have hit cancel and had trouble previously
[12:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: thats all I assumed it would do
[12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: the trouble is, one way of making cancel work is to insert a delay into every singlre teleport
[12:26] Sarah Kline: when the cancel button not present then you know your in trouble
[12:26] Sarah Kline: )
[12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: so that we can wait to see if cancel was pressed
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: most of the times I recall hitting cancel
[12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: so every tteleport would need, say, a 3 second delay but even that wouldn't guarantee a valid cancellation
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: was because it was taking really long time
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: like it was stuck at 50% bar across screen
[12:26] Nebadon Izumi: so i hit cancel
[12:26] Justin Clark-Casey: it might work in those situations if the detination region never ever responds
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: 3 second delay before teleporting? Not sure that would be good.
[12:27] Justin Clark-Casey: because then the opensim telepor tprocess never completes anyway
[12:27] Andrew Hellershanks: Would allow cancel but with more time to do the TP when you wanted to.
[12:27] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[12:29] Sarah Kline: must go bye all
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: see you Sarah
[12:29] Justin Clark-Casey: bye sarah. ok so next week
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: My net connection dropped out (again) for a moment.
[12:29] Justin Clark-Casey: do we want to move the meeting forward for an hour for europe to keep it the same in the us?
[12:29] Nebadon Izumi: next two weeks really
[12:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that may make sense
[12:29] Andrew Hellershanks: I should head out at any rate. Time to start doing some things now that all my computer issues have been dealt with (until the next round)
[12:29] Allen Kerensky: or hold a double-length meeting to cover the overlap hehehe
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: well I think no matter what we say, people will be confused
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: I will show up early again next week too
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: unfortunately i can't spare that much time
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: and we'll just have to muddle through for a few more weeks
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: well, we can move it to earlier next week anyway
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, earlier for Europe
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[12:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that might make most sense
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya as long as its not a huge conflict for you
[12:30] Andrew Hellershanks: Specify time in terms of grid time?
[12:30] Nebadon Izumi: i think that makes it easier
[12:30] Robert Adams: so, next week at 10am PDT?
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: earlier is usually better than later
[12:31] Justin Clark-Casey: so, still 11am pacific, 2 pm eastern but 6pm UK time
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: sounds good to me
[12:31] Robert Adams: that's 11am PDT?
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:31] Justin Clark-Casey: same as this week, right?
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya same as this week basically
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: US people make no adjustments
[12:31] Justin Clark-Casey: er, I mean when you started 1.5 hours ago
[12:31] Nebadon Izumi: only EU folks
[12:31] Justin Clark-Casey: right
[12:31] Andrew Hellershanks: Um... I don't know if it is PDT or PST time currently.
[12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: you're on PDT now, Andrew
[12:32] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks never remembers which part of the year has the "savings".
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: k
[12:32] Justin Clark-Casey: daylight
[12:32] Robert Adams: the US has already stated daylight time
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: i prefer DWT
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: daylight wasting time
[12:32] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: I just know which way the clock changes
[12:32] Robert AdamsRobert Adams is sure there is little or no 'savings' involved
[12:32] Andrew Hellershanks: PST would be the "savings" time
[12:33] Justin Clark-Casey: standard
[12:33] Justin Clark-Casey: pff
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: oh. Must be different where I am.
[12:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya all these acronyms, all desgined to make you insane
[12:33] Andrew Hellershanks: We refer to DST (daylight savings time) for part of the year.
[12:33] Robert AdamsRobert Adams wishes they would just not do the time changes... just a pain in the rear
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: The time for the change has been shortened.
[12:34] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps that is first step to getting rid of it.
[12:34] Allen Kerensky: yeah and what interest rate do you get for "saved daylight", how do you withdraw it when you need it - and what bank do you withdraw it from?
[12:34] Justin Clark-Casey: So I'm not sure how to handle this cancellation. There might just have to be a delay on every teleport to check cancel status, though that's not a solution I like
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya can't say i can offer much in terms of suggestions there
[12:35] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... confirmation button after saying ok, TP me. "Did you really want to teleport?"
[12:35] Robert Adams: the US does daylight time, the state of Arizona does not do daylight time, there is a reservation inside Arizona that does do daylight time and there is a reservation inside that reservation to does not do daylight time
[12:35] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:35] Allen Kerensky: on a cancel, the viewer sends a message to region?
[12:36] Andrew Hellershanks: a reservation inside a reservation?/
[12:36] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: yes
[12:36] Justin Clark-Casey: getting big chat log for some reason
[12:36] Robert Adams: Andrew, some sort of overlap of 'traditional' lands
[12:36] Nebadon Izumi: not noticed any lag here chatting today myself
[12:36] Allen Kerensky: so, the idea is that the source opensim has dumped the avatar state, the destination sim hasn't caught it, and neither source or destination is willing to handle the cancel message?
[12:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, that must get awfully confusing as to what time is it when the clocks are changing.
[12:37] Robert Adams: I'm off for lunch.... catch you all later
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: see you
[12:37] Robert Adams: @Andrew, I'm sure it is :)
[12:37] Justin Clark-Casey: bye robert
[12:37] Nebadon Izumi: what is even more confusing about no DST in arizona
[12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, I'm going to get going.
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: all the television schedules were based on California times
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: so even though the time did not change
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: all the TV shows shifted one hour
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: they get you one way or the other
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:38] Nebadon Izumi: bastards
[12:38] Andrew Hellershanks: Probably nothing good on at that time of night.
[12:38] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: essentially, yes. The cancel is only received at some unpredictable point in the process. And that may be past the poitn of no return
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: in LL does the cancel button disappear at some point
[12:39] Dahlia TrimbleDahlia Trimble returns with a sandwich.. nom nom nom
[12:39] Nebadon Izumi: you would think LL would make it so once it wasnt possible to cancel anymore the button would disappear
[12:39] Andrew Hellershanks: just ope they figured out how to do time change properly. I remember when Windows had it wrong when clock was going backwards an hour. If you left the computer on, everytime it hit 2am it would want to turn back the clock by one hour.
[12:39] Allen Kerensky: > Justin so - can the source sim cache the avatar state and only release it on positive confirmation from the destination sim, and the cancel always default back to source sim - the cancel message goes to either region but both agree the source sim handles?
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I dunno, haven't tested
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: I should really
[12:40] Allen Kerensky: sim to sim, is there a "teleport complete" sent from destination back to the source?
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: we do the same thing, but because cancellation comes in via a different thread, it can still arrive at any point after we've disabled the button
[12:40] Andrew Hellershanks: See you next week.
[12:40] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks waves
[12:40] Justin Clark-Casey: bye andrew
[12:41] Allen Kerensky: to me, the avatar state seems like writing data to a journaled filesystem, you serialize, send to disk log, then write to disk, then remove log - can avatar state do the same?
[12:41] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: we do that pretty much alraedy. You could handle cancel at some points but if it goes beyond the last step you are screwed
[12:42] Allen Kerensky: hmmm the viewer sends the cancel message to which side?
[12:42] Justin Clark-Casey: it must be me, I'm getting severe lag everywhere
[12:42] Allen Kerensky: is there a way to use the viewer's choice of destination as a flag for how to handle it?
[12:42] Justin Clark-Casey: allen: always the source region
[12:42] Allen Kerensky: ah, okay
[12:43] Justin Clark-Casey: my resent packets are also high
[12:43] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm
[12:43] Allen Kerensky: MTR time
[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: Arielle has a crap load of unacked packets
[12:43] Nebadon Izumi: is that just poor network quality you think Justin?
[12:44] Nebadon Izumi: its like 1000 times more than anyone else
[12:44] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's always indicative of network issues
[12:44] Justin Clark-Casey: you see my resent number is alsop 10% of all packets out
[12:44] Justin Clark-Casey: which is pretty bad
[12:44] Dahlia Trimble: if someone's viewer is freezing it could delay acks
[12:44] Justin Clark-Casey: whereas yours is <0-.1% :)
[12:45] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's also a possibility
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: ya, i remember dahlia talking about if your viewer was using like 99% cpu
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: or you had little cpu free
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: you could generate slow messages on the console
[12:45] Justin Clark-Casey: so either network or viewer issue usually
[12:45] Nebadon Izumi: even if your network was fine
[12:47] Justin Clark-Casey: you know, I think the viewer cpu might be sent up with the viewer stats
[12:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yes it is
[12:48] Dahlia Trimble: not always CPU, could be swapping opengl memory
[12:48] Nebadon Izumi: be good to display that in stats
[12:48] Dahlia Trimble: if its swapping cpu could be low
[12:48] Justin Clark-Casey: or you could tell if the person's viewer had a very low fps
[12:48] Justin Clark-Casey: assuming it is reporting the data
[12:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it would be interesting to have those routed in
[12:49] Dahlia Trimble: ya fps would be an indicator
[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: I know LL has the ability to capture a lot of statstical information about your computer
[12:49] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, this is that mechanism
[12:49] Justin Clark-Casey: in the WebStatsModule
[12:49] Nebadon Izumi: its a TOS violation to block that info there
[12:50] Justin Clark-Casey: lol, really?
[12:50] Dahlia Trimble: look who fell in
[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:50] Justin Clark-Casey: hi teravus
[12:50] Dahlia Trimble: hi teravus
[12:50] Teravus Ousley: hello :)
[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt its something they enforce
[12:50] Nebadon Izumi: unless you are a problem
[12:50] Justin Clark-Casey: a casus belli
[12:50] Justin Clark-Casey: well, perhaps that's a little over the top :)
[12:51] Nebadon Izumi: well to me that says maybe LL makes adjustments to the simulators based on some of that data
[12:51] Nebadon Izumi: if they are so grumpy about people blocking it
[12:51] Justin Clark-Casey: it will be valuable data to them
[12:52] Nebadon Izumi: they used to share a lot of that data, but they stopped a long time ago
[12:52] Dahlia Trimble: its scary some of the stuff games collect and send back
[12:52] Dahlia Trimble: steam aggregates it and publishes it
[12:53] Allen Kerensky: Blizzard's Warden code
[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: I think it was you dahlia who posted a video one day on IRC
[12:53] Nebadon Izumi: where game developers were talking about hackers
[12:53] Dahlia Trimble: I dont use games that use rootkits or punkbuster or are over aggressive about data collection
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: i remember one of them talking about how developers were hiding messages in some of the data
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: so when hacekrs were trying to get to certain data they would see a funny message
[12:54] Dahlia Trimble: ya ric roll
[12:54] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: thats right
[12:54] Dahlia Trimble: blizzard did that
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:54] Allen Kerensky: Like Soft Linden's asset hack to catch NeilLife users
[12:54] Nebadon Izumi: that is pretty awesome
[12:55] Dahlia Trimble: what did it do?
[12:55] Allen Kerensky: replaced a script in a common asset NeilLife requested that sent Soft Linden an IM with the name of who to ban
[12:55] Dahlia Trimble: haha
[12:57] Allen Kerensky: Warden was the worst I've seen tho - reading email and running process tables and more
[12:57] Dahlia Trimble: reading email?
[12:57] Allen Kerensky: viewer stats collection didn't seem all that mysterious or egregious when I looked at it
[12:58] Allen Kerensky: yes, it read email headers and keywords looking for common cheat program names
[12:58] Allen Kerensky: like reg codes from buying the cheat programs
[12:58] Dahlia Trimble: I wonder how legal that is
[12:58] Allen Kerensky: there's a book due out sometime soon by a guy who spent years fighting with Blizzard over Warden
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: i cant imagine thats really legal at all
[12:58] Allen Kerensky: its totally legal when you agree to it as part of the ToS
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: it probably is 100% reliant on people not reading the TOS
[12:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:59] Allen Kerensky: no, its in the ToS that you agree to allow Warden anti-cheating code
[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:59] Allen Kerensky: they don't mention that it was remotely updateable or disclose exactly what it does
[12:59] Nebadon Izumi: that almost seems like a waste of time
[12:59] Dahlia Trimble: probably legal assuming its prominently displayed in the TOS and not buried in the fine print
[12:59] Allen Kerensky: but the guy who was circumventing it successfully had a good list of capabilities
[13:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go
[13:00] Allen Kerensky: his solution was to run the entire game in a sandbox and then control the inputs to the sandbox process
[13:00] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: is it worth capturing the earlier part of this meeting's chatlog?
[13:00] Nebadon Izumi: i can send you entire thing if you like
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