Chat log from the meeting on 2013-02-19

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[11:02] Vivian Klees: walk along on a mega prim like this with the viewer recorder walking then play it back watch what it does
[11:02] dan banner: ahh
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:02] Andrew Hellershanks: hey, justin
[11:02] dan banner: hi justin
[11:02] Teravus Ousley: Hellow Justincc
[11:02] Vivian Klees: Big Buck in the house
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: Vivian, but he isn't dressed as a Bunny. :-)
[11:03] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, hello nebadon
[11:03] dan banner: i'm wearing my big buck fan shirt
[11:03] Sarah Kline: hi
[11:03] dan banner: hi sarah
[11:03] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe... so you are, dan.
[11:04] Vivian Klees: I showed my friends the video, they said his dance was better than Psy's
[11:05] Teravus Ousley was just commenting on how it was a really quiet tuesday
[11:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[11:05] Andrew Hellershanks: ooh... 0.7.6 (dev) :-)
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it does seem pretty quiet
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: which is what I need, quite frankly
[11:06] Teravus Ousley: heh
[11:06] dan banner: justin, i changed lbsa to co-op and that user has not ended up being a ghost
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ah, interesting!
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: co-op?
[11:07] dan banner: its a wait and see tho
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: there's also a patch from oren that I need to look on that might touch on this issue
[11:07] Teravus Ousley: script abort -> script time coop
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: though I personally still think it's a script abort issue
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: could be combo though
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ah
[11:08] dan banner: i did notice something else tho
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to give avatars their own app domains
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, it would be good to have that as an option
[11:08] dan banner: when ghosted, trying to teleport the avatar or kick the avatar both result in locking the console
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: still?
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: with co-op termination enabled?
[11:09] dan banner: i havent seen it with coop
[11:09] dan banner: yet
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: did you clean out the script directory when you turned co-op on?
[11:09] dan banner: just saying, its not the kick user
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: both those commands will end up using the same code to remove the current avatar from the scene
[11:09] dan banner: right
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: just to confirm, you cleared out the existing scripts?
[11:10] dan banner: everything has been running well at lbsa
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I only emphasize this because if one doesn't, one still uses scripts compiled to thread abort
[11:10] dan banner: no i recompiled them
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: ok, great.
[11:10] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: actually
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: dan: if it does happen again, a vm thread dump would be much appreciated
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: everytime we do a plaza update
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: the dlls get purged
[11:10] dan banner: sure justin
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefully this time it would show properly if there's a deadlock
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: so just updated will force that
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: okay, great to know
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: we do save states though
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's fine
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's only the compiled DLLS that need to be purged
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya i figured it was safer to purge the dlls every update
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: takes a lot longer for that initial startup
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but avoids wierd issues
[11:12] logger sewell: Hi all made it
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: in theory there should normally be no wierd issues
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: hello Logger
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: right, but we are constantly testing
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: but I can imagine that something interesting might sometimes occur, esp. with dev code
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey nods
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt want our bug reports to be clouded by issues that sneak in
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: that could be avoided
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, absolutely
[11:13] Teravus Ousley: FYI, I swapped out the WebGL test page with a video.. since I'm not going to be here for a week :) ---> the page has the test page linked.. but as it says, no guarantee if the instance will be available while I'm away.
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hi logger, hi robert
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: hello Robert, glad you made it :)
[11:13] Sarah Kline: HI Robert
[11:13] dan banner: hey robert
[11:13] Robert Adams: hello all
[11:13] logger sewell: HI Robert
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: teravus: heh
[11:13] Teravus Ousley: Hello
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: I always forget about the Bullet testing that happens before this meeting.
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that's an impressive view of the region in webgl
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i was going to make a video for you as soon as I could Teravus
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: busy day for me today though
[11:14] Teravus Ousley: heh, no worries.
[11:14] Robert Adams: the bullet office hours didn't happen today... I had other commitments... but next week for sure
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: great
[11:15] Teravus Ousley visited and smashed the chain links .. but that was it.
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Robert, sounds good although I'll probably miss next weeks. :-)
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: i have a wierd issue with chains on my serer
[11:15] Robert Adams: LOL
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: server*
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: they move really slow for some reason
[11:15] Joe Radik: redvet-77
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: not sure what is up with that
[11:15] Robert Adams: I need to add a special RLV mode so chains won't be as much of a problem for you :)
[11:16] Sarah Kline: )
[11:16] Cuteulala Artis is online.
[11:16] Teravus Ousley: well, the black hole will smash the chain links to bits.. :)
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya its ok here
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: odd
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: your server is windows?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: nno
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: Linux
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: same as this box
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0.3
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: mono 3.0.3 still working out fine?
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: working great
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: the bells, the bells
[11:18] Sarah Kline: LOL
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: bells? I don't hear any bells.
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks wonders if justin has been working so hard that he is starting to hallucinate
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: ;-)
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a rare species of spinally dformed rabbit
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: its tinitus
[11:19] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:19] Teravus Ousley: It's 5 people replacing all of your roof shingles
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: That would be a pounding noise not a ringing one.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: oh i need to check the mesh stairs
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: someone told me that was working now in bullet
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hoild on
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: they are phantom at moment
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, mesh stairs. I can't see mesh objects. I've returned to using Imprudence on my laptop as I was having problems using other viewers.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: still tough
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: even going up the ramp seems tough
[11:23] Andrew Hellershanks: what is the spacing between treads on the stairs?
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: its 0.36m
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: the stair spacing
[11:24] Robert Adams: and would this work in SL?
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: not sure honestly
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: ive never uploaded stairs in SL
[11:24] Robert Adams: like you visit there all the time :)
[11:24] dan banner: seems any height stairs work in sl
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell you
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably work with regular prims
[11:24] Andrew Hellershanks: dan, not true unless you use a ramp
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: the spacing was .362
[11:25] Robert Adams: I'll play with that
[11:25] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. That is a bit on the high side.
[11:25] dan banner: andrew: its a whole lot higher there than opensim
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: I find a spacing of .25 seems to work better. Not sure what the upper limit is before you start having problems climbing a set of stairs.
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: it works with reg prims
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: same spacing
[11:26] Andrew Hellershanks: oh.
[11:26] dan banner: i know in ODE its also directional...
[11:26] dan banner: spin that around nebadon
[11:27] Andrew Hellershanks: .25m is actually closer to the virtual equivalent of real stairs
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: still make it up
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its not super smooth
[11:27] dan banner: ya
[11:27] dan banner: nice
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: but it goes up
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: on the mesh stairs its like you hit a wall
[11:28] Robert Adams: I use a different stair climbing mechanism that ODE
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ya in ODE
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: you are lucky to walk up 0.20 prims
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a good job I've largely overcome my screen-induced motion sickness
[11:28] Robert Adams: ODE relies on the rounded bottom of the avatar capsule -- that is why some of that stuff about capsule tilt
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: ODE is basically ramps or nothing
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even ramps have trouble in ODE
[11:29] dan banner: heh
[11:29] Robert Adams: I look for collisions close to the avatar's feet and then move the avatar up to try and get over the barrier
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: like dan said, dpending on their rotation / orientation to the sim
[11:29] Andrew Hellershanks: how much do you move them up, Robert?
[11:29] Robert Adams: that could be some problem with meshes, though
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: makes sense
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: cause you see if i put the ramp in the stairs its fine
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: even if i don't make it phantom
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: so its not artifacts
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: no odd invisible triangles or something
[11:30] Andrew Hellershanks: the only problem I have with ramps is that people skip adding a guard rail and I sometimes fall off the stairs before making it to the top.
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: thats how these were
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: just like real life
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: i will unphantom all the stairs and leave ramps for now
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: that seems to work fine
[11:31] Robert Adams: there are three configuration parameters. AvatarStepHeight (height looking for collisions under ( default 0.3)
[11:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't recall when i last had trouble with .25m spacing on stairs. I don't use ramps when I make stairs.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: it depends Andrew
[11:31] Robert Adams: AvatarStepForceFactor (multiplier for force to get avatar up (default 2.0)
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: the avatar capsule in ODE never rotates
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: and its tilted
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps I got lucky or my avatar is more coordinated. ;-)
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: so sometimes your walking like your dragging a board behind you
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: other times its like your plowing it into the grund in front of you
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. i haven't looked at the avatar capsule
[11:32] Robert Adams: and AvatarStepApproachFactor (controls how directly one has to approach the step (default 0.6)
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: when your plowing it into ground
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: going up stairs and ramps is difficult
[11:32] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes impossible depending on the angle of incline
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: the same goes for terrain
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: sometimes going up hills you avatar is floating off the ground
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: its because your capsule is plowing into the terrain mesh
[11:33] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:33] Robert Adams: the step height is the main one... come force is applied up and the avatar is moved up 1/2 the step height... so a step about .2 works well
[11:33] Teravus Ousley: dot product against the face normal.. :)
[11:35] Robert Adams: I can increase the default if a target step height is about .25
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: woah
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: this is pretty cool. It would be radical if this meeting space were just a bunch of chains extending from the moon down to the land surface
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: might be a bit stressful on the phys engine though :)
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: haha
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: be neat to try something like that
[11:37] Vivian Klees: anyone tried to simulate a baseball pitching machine on bullet?
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Chain seats for everyone
[11:39] Robert Adams: or egg chairs suspended by chains
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:39] Robert Adams: can't get the links too small, though
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: what happens then?
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: not tried Vivian, that might be tough
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: it would probably be somewhat unpredictable
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: I need to try the axis locking
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: do you have an example script for that Robert?
[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald is offline.
[11:43] dan banner: .
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey farts discretely
[11:43] Vivian Klees lights a match
[11:43] Teravus Ousley makes a random comment about this video: , Why would you do something like that!?
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey grins
[11:43] Andrew Hellershanks prepares to call the fire department
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: If I knew that then I would probably be doing it
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol omg
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: horrible video haha
[11:45] dan banner: teravus: lack of common sense?
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: ive had like 2 or 3 spikes from those cactus in me
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: and it was excruciating
[11:45] Robert Adams: axis logging is not enabled yet... this job thing is distracting me :)
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok
[11:46] Robert Adams: making chain links too small causes them to jump around and break
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: i saw a commit said something about experimental axis locking
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: and assumed it was sorta working
[11:46] Robert Adams: I need to scale the collision margins and forces by the size of the object
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[11:46] Andrew Hellershanks: Teravus, I don't think that person will be doing it again any time soon (if ever)
[11:46] Robert Adams: yes... the code is there but turned off.... i'm using a Bullet constraint to lock the axis
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: 0.o
[11:47] Teravus Ousley: o.0
[11:48] Robert Adams: I've added all the bullet constraint types... won't be long before you can set any link in a linkset to be a constraint: hinge, slider, spring, ...
[11:48] dan banner: nice
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks: Has the center of gravity fix gone in to Bullet?
[11:50] Andrew Hellershanks rembered something about it from the mailing list or a previous meeting.
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: i think I saw some work for center of mass go in
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: not sure if its the final word yet
[11:51] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'll have to check that out sometime. I think that was what made my flying sleigh hard to control. It was off balance.
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: this was last thing to go in for it
[11:51] Robert Adams: another feature that's almost there... not enabled, though
[11:51] Robert Adams: it will be user settable when it is done
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:51] Robert Adams wonders what people will do with setting center-of-mass outside an object :)
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Being able to change cog will be good for sailboats
[11:53] Teravus Ousley notes that whatever you do.. you don't want your game controls to be like this: (swearing)
[11:53] Robert Adams: I would like a bunch of OpenSim extensions to be enabled by default.... modInvoke, os function, ...
[11:53] Robert Adams: OpenSimulator is not SL any more
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't see anything wrong with enabling them. But it will be a battle to have any OSSL threat level be default
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: lol thats funny Teravus
[11:57] Robert Adams: There should be a "UsualPermissions.ini" file that keeps thread level at RediculuslyHigh (or whatever it is now) but has Allows_ for useful but not usually dangerous functions
[11:58] Robert Adams: I know there is one person out there who thinks nothing should be allowed by default but that is not true for 99% of anybody's regions
[12:00] Robert Adams: and OpenSim-ness should be enabled by default (os functions, ...) and turnoffable if you want SL compatibility
[12:00] Sarah Kline: Maybe if the term Threat was changed people would feel different
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: I agree. but if we are to 'move beyond' ll in that manner than I thikn everybody would have to accept that some non-sl functinos have to be always available
[12:00] Robert Adams: at least that's what I think
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Threat is certainly a paranoid way of putting it
[12:00] Justin Clark-Casey: although tat's not neecessarily inappropirate with a region running other people's code
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: well there are quite a few OSSL functions you definately do not want or need on by default
[12:01] Robert Adams: I agree with you there, Nebadon...
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can have something like Robert said
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: have an example file people can rename
[12:02] Robert Adams: I'm not saying any script should be able to do console commands :)
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: then you uncomment out a line in Xengine
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: to enable the ini file
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: I think one day those ini files really have to move out of bin/
[12:02] Sarah Kline: set security levels
[12:02] Robert Adams: or rename it and put in the bin/config directory
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a ridiculous situation at the moment with practically everything piled in there
[12:02] Robert Adams: all INI files are read in that directory
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: i mean if you look at like apache
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: it nots like apache can do much out of the box either
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: things like php and java have inherit risks
[12:03] Nebadon Izumi: enabling them
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true
[12:04] Robert Adams: on the other hand, the default OpenSimulator setup is what most people run... so what should be common across OpenSim regions
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: I think the opensimulator/web server comparison isn't perfect because I see OpenSimulator as having to do so much more with its content
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: right
[12:05] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.6 Dev          036d73c: 2013-02-19 07:55:20 -0800 (Unix/Mono)
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: whereas a vanilla webserver implements http and serves html without having to know what that html is
[12:05] Robert Adams: at the moment, most people don't use the os functions because they are usually turned off
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: but then I guess that breaks down if you consider php
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i am just saying a lot of web facing software comes crippled out of the box
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: forcing the person enabling them to be the one taking the risk
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: not the developers
[12:06] Robert Adams: but the 'enabling them' step is not part of the normal installation instructions
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: ya, we could certainly make things easier
[12:06] Robert Adams: the 'wimp out' would be to add more documentation :)
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: hahha
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: robert: heh, - I was just about to type that :)
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I have to admit, I don't have stomach for that fight right now
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: I just think about all the hoops I have to jump through to make apache work how I like
[12:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel I have to fight on too many other fronts
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: opensim seems easy by comparison
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: a lot of time too documentation is usless
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: even good documentation
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: i end up finding the answer on some 15 year old kids blog
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: would be a start to have good doc though
[12:08] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: reminds me of when i was learning wings3D
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i spent weeks trying to figure something out
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: i ended up finding a video on youtube was a 13 year old german kid
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: speaking german
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: and i figured it out from that
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: but i don't disagree about any of it
[12:10] Unknown User: can these things be enabled by the console, or is that a bad idea?
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: i was just making comparisons
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: at the moment they can not
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I think they are good points
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: it requires a sim restart
[12:10] Fearghus McMahon: i think making proper documentation is the thing most developers hate ;) to not haveing proper documentation
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: what's needed is reasonable discussion on these things
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, I need to pop off now
[12:11] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:11] dan banner: bye justin
[12:11] Nebadon Izumi: ok ya I do as well
[12:11] Sarah Kline: bye justin
[12:11] Teravus Ousley: Ok, take care :)
[12:11] dan banner: laters everyone
[12:11] Fearghus McMahon: take care justin and Neb
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