Chat log from the meeting on 2012-05-22

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[2012/05/22 11:04]  BlueWall Slade: nice video RiRa
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: thanks blue. want to make more
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello flks
[2012/05/22 11:05]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Sarah Kline: hi Justin
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: this where more csome new practice..
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Taarna Welles: Hello
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[2012/05/22 11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[2012/05/22 11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, i saw it today myself because manual oar.
[2012/05/22 11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: the slow http came on my screen when avatras teleport. and i heared thats gone if you disable something. unless its fix in newer version.
[2012/05/22 11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: the slow http stuff is mostly just new verbose debugging stuff
[2012/05/22 11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: it was likely happening all along, but its only now we see it since justin added some debug things in to try to better pinpoint what is happening and to get more precise messages
[2012/05/22 11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are many possible sources of that stuff. But it's far better to know that it's there than to hide it
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: they mostly are not a bad thing, just telling you that stuff is taking longer than expected
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: 99% of the time they are just a warning, not a failure
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: sometimes it's not important, but sometimes it matters a lot
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: need to eventually sort the non-important ones from the important ones
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: possibly by suplying different timeouts when the handlers are setup
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, different warning levels - most of this stuff never timesout
[2012/05/22 11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[2012/05/22 11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: aha, saw some time-out today to. :O
[2012/05/22 11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are so many sources - one in particular is on connectrions to neighbouring regions
[2012/05/22 11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: I',m curious to know what teleport issues there are curently, if any
[2012/05/22 11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: I have not really heard anything specific
[2012/05/22 11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: atleast at increased levels
[2012/05/22 11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: let me say it this way, i see more TP porblems in SL then in OsGrid
[2012/05/22 11:12]  BlueWall Slade: I haven't seen any
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: I would also suspect a high % of failures could still be tied to regions that are not updated enough
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: it looks good. and the ones that give problems possible run old version
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes. One can only look at the statistics here rather than individual cases
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: unless there's a different repro case
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi doug
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, I have to admit though, I do not teleport a whole lot
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Douglas Maxwell: hey justin, good to see you
[2012/05/22 11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I mean a difinite repro case
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I was teleporting around last friday and it was surprisingly good
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Douglas
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: I did have a disconnection when I hit a do-not-creoss barrier which was right on the edge of anytoher sim
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's a slightly different issue though, and a known problem I believe
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Douglas Maxwell: Hi Nebadon
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[2012/05/22 11:14]  BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I think there might even be mantis open on that issue
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[2012/05/22 11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: Happy i dont see much of that border type justin
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: I saw your tweets about Bulletsim Douglas
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: the only issue I ran into was getting dead sims on the map :)
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: to answer your question, yes it works on linux
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: as well as it does on Windows
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: but, in neither case is it quite useable as a ODE replacement yet
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Nebadon Izumi: its actually quite stable
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: unfrotunately, I don't think it was working in
[2012/05/22 11:15]  Douglas Maxwell: I'm looking for bullet sim advice. When I enable it in the OpenSim.ini file on Ubuntu Linux 11.10, the sim refuses to start.
[2012/05/22 11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: but it needs quite a bit of work still
[2012/05/22 11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: only working in git master
[2012/05/22 11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: oh ya that is very possible Justin
[2012/05/22 11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: i keep forgetting that to me there is only master git
[2012/05/22 11:16]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2012/05/22 11:16]  Douglas Maxwell: I would rather avoid Windows if possible. The security overhead is massive for me.
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, well if you run on git Master, it should work the same as in windows
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: but you will find there are many unresolved issues still
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: douglas: the distro of opensim will have bullet working on linux. It should be comaptible with
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: a few off the top of my head
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: avatar movement is still not right
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: prims you should be able to walk over you can not
[2012/05/22 11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: walking up ramps / stairs is nearly impossible
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: i hope its rendering sculpt right
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: hollow shapes don't always mesh properly
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: also walk prims nebadon ?
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: mega prims can be an issue still
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: i hear lots af basic stuff that fails and is needed
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Sarah Kline: avatar is above ground...physical things keep on moving untill stopped
[2012/05/22 11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: also Linksets can not be made physical
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: so quite a few short comings as a full on ODE replacement
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Sarah Kline: and poseballs can put you at 0.0.0
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Sarah Kline: )
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: but that said, some of the testing I have done does show it has way more potential than ODE
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Richardus Raymaker: Sarah, if the have bad mood the maby do that now to. :O
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: do you know why Intel aren't fixing these issues?
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Douglas Maxwell: yes
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: I do not, i can only assume he has been distracted on other things
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Douglas Maxwell: I met with Mic Bowman last week
[2012/05/22 11:19]  Sarah Kline: I hope we can use that potential in opensim
[2012/05/22 11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: I do not speak to the intel guys much anymore
[2012/05/22 11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: to bad..
[2012/05/22 11:20]  Sarah Kline: Richard just saying what i tested the other week
[2012/05/22 11:20]  Douglas Maxwell: I want to avoid buying into Havok
[2012/05/22 11:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: douglas: what did mic say?
[2012/05/22 11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: Bullet still sounds good, but it need to work at least the same with functonality as ode
[2012/05/22 11:21]  Douglas Maxwell: we will likely enter into a Cooperative Research and Development Agreement (CRADA) between my lab and his.
[2012/05/22 11:21]  Douglas Maxwell: this agreement oulines new work we will do together on things like terrain and physics specifically
[2012/05/22 11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: Havok would be a very expensive proposition
[2012/05/22 11:21]  Douglas Maxwell: Havok would take a lot of work too
[2012/05/22 11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: douglas: sounds good
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: and probably a long development process
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Douglas Maxwell: Mic is looking for use cases
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Douglas Maxwell: we have lots of those
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: would havok really be that expensive though? Or you could run all servers on win 32 :)
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: if you want support from Havok
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[2012/05/22 11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: bah, that was a conversatio nkiller
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: its super expensive
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Sarah Kline: youd still have to get havok working with opensim lol
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: 50k+ a year
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe more
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: well yes :) Would be pretty cool though
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Simulator Version v0.5: shouts: OpenSim 0.7.4 Dev          0db60ee: 2012-05-19 04:59:36 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Douglas Maxwell: I can't share numbers, but it got my attention
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure it can't be *that* hard ;)
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Sarah Kline: ^^
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Douglas Maxwell: I've been quoted 6-9 months of dev time from 3 different sources
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: I would also be very surprised if anyone could actually get the free havok to work with opensimulator
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Douglas Maxwell: to integrate havok
[2012/05/22 11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: my money is it is not possible
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Dahlia Trimble: Ive heard 500k for a grid license but i dont know if its reliable or for how big of a grid
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: LL spent years modifying the source code
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: douglas: yeah, that sounds like a reasonable conservative estimate to me too
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Richardus Raymaker: only 50K ? i where thinking about 100K :O
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: right, but people had to spend the same time intergrating ode
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: and bullet too
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: 50k would be the minimum i could imagine
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: and there's still vast scope for improvement
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: its likely much much more
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Nebadon Izumi: after all the development costs
[2012/05/22 11:24]  BlueWall Slade: Why would peopel not be interested in devoting time to improve ODE or Bluuet?
[2012/05/22 11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure the ode integratio nwould be improved
[2012/05/22 11:24]  BlueWall Slade: Bullet<
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: oh there is no doubt about that
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: you meamn the plugins or ode/bullet themsleves?
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Douglas Maxwell: @BlueWall - that is a possibility too
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Dahlia Trimble: what does bullet have that you want Douglas?
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: from my basic testing between ODE and Bullet
[2012/05/22 11:25]  BlueWall Slade: It seems that that would serve the most users
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: doing prim drops
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Arielle Popstar: maybe we will get lucky like with vivox and they will give it to us free :)
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: Bullet can do about 10 times more prims
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: lol
[2012/05/22 11:25]  Douglas Maxwell: Mic tells me Bullet has higher performance
[2012/05/22 11:26]  BlueWall Slade: I have been experimenting with trains in SL
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: actually no, put it this way Arielle
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: Intel owns Havok
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: cool bluewall. i can only do it here
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: and even Intel is not allowed to use Havok
[2012/05/22 11:26]  BlueWall Slade: we need border crossings :)
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: unless they purchase a full license
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I hear bullet doe shave higher perf
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: or good mega regions
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: for each project
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: for no can only make the train on mega
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Arielle Popstar: ouch
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: the problem with megaregions is they require viewer adaptation
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Douglas Maxwell: We are testing DSG and the physics engine (ODE) seems to need help
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: to be properly usable
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: Havok is big business
[2012/05/22 11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: sounds to me like the current bullet has lower performance
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Sarah Kline: its also a case of working on the scripting engine to?
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: a lot of big title video games use Havok
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think there's probably scrope for improving the ode plugin but I doubt it will reach bullet levels
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: at this poitn
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: its probably the #1 most used physics engine
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Douglas Maxwell: yes, we'd need to extend the scripting engine to accommodate the new physics API
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Dahlia Trimble: I think bullet has more features
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Arielle Popstar: yes and have to wonder if they all pay full price
[2012/05/22 11:27]  Douglas Maxwell: the licensing is what concerns me the most
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Arielle it depends on how many licenses they buy I am sure
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: Justin Clark-Casey nods
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: still think a mega region with adapted viewer wins it from every simborder.
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: your not going to get any breaks trying to purchase 1 license
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: a company like EA though, probably has back room deals
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: licensing is the kicker
[2012/05/22 11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: I did just see some big company that does training simulations, not opensimulator related just struck a deal with havok
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Douglas Maxwell: they have a complicated licensing scheme, I don't need the headaches
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: but it was a huge for profit company
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: with 100's of prexisting customers
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Dahlia Trimble: I think portal 2 uses havok and that's pretty fun :)
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Arielle Popstar: would think it would be a per user basis
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its per project
[2012/05/22 11:29]  BlueWall Slade: if anything - they would make deals with those companies to protect them from organizations using OpenSim
[2012/05/22 11:29]  Douglas Maxwell: they are like the 3M of the game industry - they don't make games, they make games better
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: yes and it goes well beyond just physics
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Douglas Maxwell: their vision engine is gorgeous
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: they have AI stuff
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Douglas Maxwell: I like the brain
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: and full scripting language
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Dahlia Trimble: but I would be curious what physics features people actually need and what engines offer those features
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: its much more than what ODE does
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Douglas Maxwell: Its mostly behind the scenes, Dahlia
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Douglas Maxwell: collision detection, e.g.
[2012/05/22 11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: it has stuff like pathfinding
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: and lots of mesh tools we would never use
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: well I kinda understand collisions and pathfinding a bit
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: Justin Clark-Casey smiles
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be like buying a porsche so you could have the steering wheel
[2012/05/22 11:31]  UUID Speaker: Nova Cadian: ee53cd8b-0498-4456-9cbc-abd394873789
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Sarah Kline: mostly vehicles and guns that shoot lol
[2012/05/22 11:31]  BlueWall Slade: ot hood ornament
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: but havoc still dont fix siborder crosisngs for verhicles easy i guess.
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: it would not fix that at all infact Richardus
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Arielle Popstar: mega does :)
[2012/05/22 11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: how well does sl do border crossings for vehivles?
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: its actually very good Justin
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: it seems to me a big issue there is handoff between scene threads
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: then i vote for mega region support. in some way :P
[2012/05/22 11:32]  BlueWall Slade: depends
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Sarah Kline: its improved
[2012/05/22 11:32]  BlueWall Slade: but, they do work
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Arielle Popstar: not well from what i saw a couple months ago
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: it depends on the Sim Arielle
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: Justin, simborders in sl with flying are pretty good. flying at all also above mainland is nt bad
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: if ode doenst support vehicles, the fault is likely theivehicles or out interface to ode, Many vehicle games are written wuth ODE
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Arielle Popstar: well was with ubit
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Sarah Kline: depends how many script laden avatars on it
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: if you go to a sparsely populated multiregion sandbox area
[2012/05/22 11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: border cross is quite good
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there is a lot of room for improve vehicle support in the ode plugin
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: if you go mainland where its spammy horrible builds then it can be spotty by comparsion
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Sarah Kline: go to the old teen grid...its empty )
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: interesting
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: vehicle cross is little to do with physics, i would think
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and more to do with network comms
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: sarah: sin't it closed?
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Richardus Raymaker: if you would have a megaregion with viewewr support and better verhicles. i think some thing like fly , boat and race can push opensim.
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: vehicle crossing is horrible in SL and they use havok
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yes, absolutely if both regions are running in different physics scenes
[2012/05/22 11:33]  BlueWall Slade: seems like the scripts crossing over have a lot to do with it
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Sarah Kline: nope
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Sarah Kline: landmass is still there
[2012/05/22 11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: I haven't investigated megaregios a lot but I'm sure all the physics must be in a single physics scene for all the regions
[2012/05/22 11:34]  BlueWall Slade: would need to check against scripted attachments and flying -vs- riding a vehicle
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: I would think its mostly a matter of passing the physics related info from 1 region to another in a timely fashion
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: is like 90% of vehicle cross
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: and I have a lot of vehicles in my inventory in SL and I cant steer any of them
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: Dahlia, i dont cout the 2 seconds delay. if you want borders with low latancy i can only see that with mega's
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Sarah Kline: we really need infinate regions
[2012/05/22 11:34]  BlueWall Slade: Dahlia - did you take that train out for a spin?
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: I also suppose if your avatar and vehicle contain 200 scripts
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Arielle Popstar: i run vehicles around megas with no issues
[2012/05/22 11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: that could also effect how a border cross feels
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: not yet Bluewall
[2012/05/22 11:35]  BlueWall Slade: :)
[2012/05/22 11:35]  BlueWall Slade: infinite regions == new viewer
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Douglas Maxwell: thank you for your help, I am sorry I cannot stay longer
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: I blame a lot of the bad vehicle physics in SL about 50% of the blame lies with the vehicle creators
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think you need infinite - just better mega support
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: whispers: and potentially the drivers of the vehicles too :P
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: douglas: see you, doug
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Arielle Popstar: what about the vari regions?
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: Douglass try the dev mailing list
[2012/05/22 11:35]  BlueWall Slade: new viewer
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Richardus Raymaker: lol nebadon
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielles: the problem with vari is how they fit on a map, I think
[2012/05/22 11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: see you Doug
[2012/05/22 11:36]  BlueWall Slade: see ya Douglas
[2012/05/22 11:36]  Douglas Maxwell: take care!
[2012/05/22 11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: a map difivided into 256x256 squares
[2012/05/22 11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: Justins, vari's in fixt shapes like rectangles or squares can work betetr
[2012/05/22 11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: even easier if they'recomprised of 256x256 units
[2012/05/22 11:36]  Richardus Raymaker: But lie you say, the viewer is the problem side to
[2012/05/22 11:37]  BlueWall Slade: they would still be just megaregions though?
[2012/05/22 11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: Oh, lets all get tiny's then 1 sim ig enough
[2012/05/22 11:37]  Arielle Popstar: viewer side code already exists in astra and Imp
[2012/05/22 11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: heh yes
[2012/05/22 11:37]  BlueWall Slade: so, let's work out real physics border crossings :)
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: actually I am not sure how true that is anymore Arielle
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Clairwil Oh: you guys are having a much more interesting conversation than this bit whine warrants...but I am hoping that there will be a tweak in the new software that will solve a memory issue I am having with mono. there's a bug report on it, but (for me) not a great solution (yet). I am thinking...Neb will have info on this ("100 percent CPU" issue).
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: I know Astra and Imp spoke about totally removing the Aurora stuff
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: But start tevelop it on sepoerated instances.. not 1 simulator more regions. :)
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairweil: no problem - that's wat we're really here for
[2012/05/22 11:38]  BlueWall Slade: Clairwil, I saw your IRC comments...
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: well not actually Astra, but Singularity
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Arielle Popstar: Neb:ahh ok
[2012/05/22 11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: which is what astra was based on
[2012/05/22 11:38]  BlueWall Slade: did you look in your regions at the debugging - viewer side?
[2012/05/22 11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: I remember SianaGearz really complaining about the Aurora stuff breaking things for SL and OpenSim
[2012/05/22 11:39]  Clairwil Oh: ty Justin. I don't want the meeting to devolve into my issue. but thanks. here's where I found a bug report
[2012/05/22 11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: and she was saying she was going to remove all of it from her code
[2012/05/22 11:39]  BlueWall Slade: I have seen what you describe being caused by content
[2012/05/22 11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: and I also remember mccabe agreeing with her
[2012/05/22 11:40]  BlueWall Slade: those things were never meant to be in OpenSim
[2012/05/22 11:40]  BlueWall Slade: they made a hard split and wanted to keep it that wy
[2012/05/22 11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairwil: nothing should have changed which would cause a new cpu sike
[2012/05/22 11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ya and realistically Aurora never caught on
[2012/05/22 11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairwil: which opensim version did you upgrade from?
[2012/05/22 11:40]  Arielle Popstar: no it didnt
[2012/05/22 11:41]  Richardus Raymaker: curious if there's not another way to have borderless regions without have a fight with the viewer
[2012/05/22 11:41]  Arielle Popstar: but wonderdf he code cold adapted to opensim
[2012/05/22 11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: not easily Arielle
[2012/05/22 11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: maybe - but I would rather get megaregions working better
[2012/05/22 11:41]  Clairwil Oh: checking....I went up two, I think, to the latest, from ..7.2.
[2012/05/22 11:41]  BlueWall Slade: he said that it was made not to
[2012/05/22 11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: since they have some compatibility with other viewers
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: I really like the idea of Mega regions
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Arielle Popstar: other viewers are starting to make allowances for opensim lately
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: it simplifies a lot of things
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: only thing i know with mega's is that water is going to do strange if viewer distance is wrong and your sim to big
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: they are?
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: I guess the real question is how much can it be improved
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: there is definite room for improvement
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: certainly there's room for improvement server side
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not sure how much viewer side at this poitn
[2012/05/22 11:42]  Arielle Popstar: they been putting osgrid adress in the grid managers
[2012/05/22 11:43]  Arielle Popstar: thats a start :)
[2012/05/22 11:43]  Richardus Raymaker: yup !
[2012/05/22 11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: I think that's restoring stuff we had back on version 1 based viewers ;)
[2012/05/22 11:43]  Richardus Raymaker: still a good start
[2012/05/22 11:43]  Arielle Popstar: well tre but there is ope
[2012/05/22 11:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[2012/05/22 11:44]  Arielle Popstar: ~smaks keyboard
[2012/05/22 11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: what we really need to do is fix the issue where the firestorm sl bridge generates lots of tiny prims on opensim
[2012/05/22 11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure it's something that could be fixed on the server-side
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Clairwil Oh: I watched mono double, and triple in memory allocation. restarted. probably recurred. updated mono, in case it was the improvement. Key suggested I add a file to hold down threads in mono. I guess I can do that. but it must be a change in the software's communication with mono.
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: then implement multi-attachment
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Arielle Popstar: all firestorm viewers?
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: i still dont know what that bridge is doing
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: Clairwil Oh check this settting in OpenSIm.ini
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairwil: I would suspect some script is eating up memory
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Nebadon Izumi: in the [Xengine] section
[2012/05/22 11:45]  BlueWall Slade: Clair - try debugging your region content
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Clairwil Oh: that's a bridge that needs burning. :-)
[2012/05/22 11:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairwil: you might want to test with script engine disabled and see if it goes away
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: AppDomainLoading = false
[2012/05/22 11:46]  BlueWall Slade: physics, etc. too
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: what is that setting above set for
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: if its set for true in linux
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: you will see massive increases in memory usage
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: arielle: I suspect so, though I don't know the true situation
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Clairwil Oh: and actually we have made zero changes to sim content. plus, the problem began with the upgraded software and in three sims which hold different content and scripts.
[2012/05/22 11:46]  BlueWall Slade: you changed OS versions
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Nebadon Izumi: check what I said above Clairwil
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairwil: as Neb said, AppDomainLoading = false
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Arielle Popstar: there is a hacked firestorm viewer that gives the user that ability
[2012/05/22 11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: in [XEngine]
[2012/05/22 11:46]  BlueWall Slade: maybe something in there causing it.
[2012/05/22 11:47]  Nebadon Izumi: if that is set to true in Linux memory usage will be unbearable
[2012/05/22 11:47]  BlueWall Slade: That is a recomendation based on experience
[2012/05/22 11:47]  Richardus Raymaker: on linux its really long time ago i have seen problems with scripts. only while ago once. but after 2e restart it where fine
[2012/05/22 11:48]  Clairwil Oh: I will test by turning off scripts in one sim and compare it to the other two. but...if I can downgrade to the earlier software adn the problem goes away, would that indicate that it is the new opensim software? as in....nothing else changes...I just go back to version 7.2 ?
[2012/05/22 11:48]  BlueWall Slade: such a drastic increase is usually some content when you see this after an upgrade.
[2012/05/22 11:48]  Nebadon Izumi: Clairwil did you see what I said?
[2012/05/22 11:48]  Clairwil Oh: sorry Nebadon I will re-read.
[2012/05/22 11:48]  BlueWall Slade: yes, check that too.
[2012/05/22 11:48]  Clairwil Oh: AppDomainLoading = false is that what you want me to check?
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Richardus Raymaker: my experience hi cpu is most times soem scipt thats doing weird or phyics thats nuts
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: yes
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: make sure its false
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: if this got changed to true during your upgrade
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: memory usage could easily double or tripple
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Clairwil Oh: I will try to check it now...I am remote to the machine...brb
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza won't even start with it set to true
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: btw, any progress on making the viewer go to different urls for profiles, etc?
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: it gets about 75% loaded and crashes with a stack trace
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Clairwil Oh: where will I find the ini file for opensim?
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Nebadon Izumi: [Xengine]
[2012/05/22 11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: or you're still working on the serverside?
[2012/05/22 11:50]  Nebadon Izumi: in OpenSim.ini Clairwil
[2012/05/22 11:50]  BlueWall Slade: I have been mired in the website stuff :/
[2012/05/22 11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: lol - old skool :)
[2012/05/22 11:50]  Richardus Raymaker: hope you keep a rescua coord attached to you bluewall
[2012/05/22 11:51]  BlueWall Slade: I had to get that working so I can add the OpenID/Oauth for the viewer
[2012/05/22 11:51]  BlueWall Slade: lol
[2012/05/22 11:51]  BlueWall Slade: RiRa, that's what I need to do.
[2012/05/22 11:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: ah yes, it's more complex than just sticking a webpage together in php, isn't it?
[2012/05/22 11:51]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[2012/05/22 11:51]  BlueWall Slade: I'm working in Django atm
[2012/05/22 11:51]  Clairwil Oh: AppDomain is set to false. The only setting I changed in the ini file was my listener port.
[2012/05/22 11:51]  BlueWall Slade: I think that is what LL uses
[2012/05/22 11:52]  Second Life: You have added "Wright Plaza Freebie Mall" to your Landmarks folder.
[2012/05/22 11:52]  BlueWall Slade: and - I have been making some dynamic plugins for Robust to support it
[2012/05/22 11:52]  BlueWall Slade: I can create a user on the web side and have the grid do the same with the default avatar
[2012/05/22 11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: using existing robust calls?
[2012/05/22 11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: that is really strange Clairwil, i have not really heard anyone else say that memory has gone up drastically with upgrading
[2012/05/22 11:53]  BlueWall Slade: this thing is so integrated, I want to get REST handlers for everything so we can try to keep some API for web developers together instead of having them plunder the database
[2012/05/22 11:53]  BlueWall Slade: yes
[2012/05/22 11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: i suggest 2 tests
[2012/05/22 11:53]  BlueWall Slade: I will try to push it to a branch soon
[2012/05/22 11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: 1st fall back to older version to make 100% sure memory usage actually declines
[2012/05/22 11:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: +1
[2012/05/22 11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: and then also test by disabling scripts all together
[2012/05/22 11:54]  BlueWall Slade: it is on my github / integration branch
[2012/05/22 11:54]  Clairwil Oh: ok, thank you Nebadon, and I will try whatever you suggest.
[2012/05/22 11:54]  Richardus Raymaker: Clairwil, wich linux, wich mono ?
[2012/05/22 11:54]  BlueWall Slade: but the handlers aren't there yet
[2012/05/22 11:54]  BlueWall Slade: I have user integration, a REST version to handle helper.php and the start of an estate manager
[2012/05/22 11:55]  BlueWall Slade: I'll be able to develop those out more too, with the web sied working
[2012/05/22 11:55]  Clairwil Oh: (shudders in case they have not yet noticed..) I am using a Mac running the latest Lion. It's a mini server and it's been perfectly stable for many months using 7.2 and an earlier version of Mono, a stable one. Sorry not to have the version of that.
[2012/05/22 11:56]  Arielle Popstar: does that have anything to do with all the SynchronousRestObjectRequester messages i been seeing on the last couple of Osgrid releases?
[2012/05/22 11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: so on initial startup memory is ok?
[2012/05/22 11:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: but over time it just keeps growing even if no-one is logged in?
[2012/05/22 11:56]  Clairwil Oh: I will take one sim and put is back to 7.2, exactly as it was. i will disable scripts in a third sim running the new software. I will keep the other sim as it is currently set up. Then I will let them run and document what happens with screenshots from the console and show you what happens with mono usage over time.
[2012/05/22 11:57]  BlueWall Slade: when I push the Robust service, I'll put the plugins on github + have a public repository working for testing the plugin manager
[2012/05/22 11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: ok Clairwil that is a good start, honestly I can not think of any good reason that just upgrading would increase memory usage
[2012/05/22 11:57]  Clairwil Oh: oh, yes, it starts nicely, then in about 10 or so hours, the machine is very very slow and you can observe that mono is using much more memory.
[2012/05/22 11:57]  Nebadon Izumi: I really also can not recall anyone else really making similiar claims
[2012/05/22 11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: ah so its not instantaneously using more?
[2012/05/22 11:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: clairwil: yes, as nebadon says, thing to do is to check whether that was different on 0.7.2 and then turn off scripts to see if it's a script issue
[2012/05/22 11:58]  Nebadon Izumi: it happens over a longer period of time?
[2012/05/22 11:58]  Clairwil Oh: I agree. It did not make sense. but it was an immediate and noticable change. I did troubleshoot the machine of course, and it checks out as perfect. and of course, if I turn off the sims, it is not experiencing issues.
[2012/05/22 11:59]  BlueWall Slade: I upgraded OpenSim once and had a region eat 100% of the server's memory in a few minutes
[2012/05/22 11:59]  BlueWall Slade: It was a script
[2012/05/22 11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: huh, pillsbury just etablished a virutal worlds team
[2012/05/22 11:59]  Clairwil Oh: tomorrow I will upload screen shots to a webpage with info and send you both a URL. I think that running these test sims might reveal the issue quickly.
[2012/05/22 11:59]  BlueWall Slade: uhoh?
[2012/05/22 11:59]  Dahlia Trimble: whowhat?
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Arielle Popstar: we gooing to be overrun with doughboys?
[2012/05/22 12:00]  BlueWall Slade: Clair - can you login to the regino?
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: pillsbuy is ben's firm. I was just interested, that's all
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: legal firm
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: man, and spoton3d and green phosphor are still going
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: Justin Clark-Casey checks the hg business article date
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: same office? is Ben involved?
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: don't know
[2012/05/22 12:00]  Clairwil Oh: it's possible that the newer software is running the existing scripts differently. but mostly we just have some sounds, rotations, simple scripts. Except for Emme's Strega...she is running a lot of scripts.
[2012/05/22 12:00]  BlueWall Slade: SpotOn is 1/2 owned by a lawyer
[2012/05/22 12:01]  Sarah Kline: figures
[2012/05/22 12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: heh no, they have no relation to SpotOn
[2012/05/22 12:01]  Clairwil Oh: and yes, you can log into the regions. Emme was just there.
[2012/05/22 12:01]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[2012/05/22 12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, clairwil said that mem usage is fine at first but grows over time even if no-one is logged in
[2012/05/22 12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin as far as I knew they always had a Virtual Worlds team
[2012/05/22 12:02]  BlueWall Slade: you can use the estate debugging tools to turn things off and on
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: oh ok
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Clairwil Oh: that's correct.
[2012/05/22 12:02]  BlueWall Slade: sometimes those are a great help
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: Pillsbury does work for many virtual worlds
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: including SL
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: huh, I didn't know that
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Nebadon Izumi: whispers: they wrote the SL TOS
[2012/05/22 12:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: but then, I do have my head buried in code a lot of the time :)
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and get some feed
[2012/05/22 12:03]  BlueWall Slade: take care Justin
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Clairwil Oh: i don't want to take up more of your time on this, and I appreciate these suggestions. I will send you the results of the test tomorrow. thank you VERY VERY miuch
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Arielle Popstar: Tc Justin
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: see you folks later
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: see you Justin
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and no problem Clairwill
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Sarah Kline: Bye Justin
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: hope you can figure something out
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Arielle Popstar: someone needs to send you a clothing care package
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2012/05/22 12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: me too, my stomach is grumbling. laters all :)
[2012/05/22 12:04]  Clairwil Oh: thank you all for making this world possible. it'll will be straightened out, i am sure
[2012/05/22 12:04]  Nebadon Izumi: see you Dahlia
[2012/05/22 12:04]  Arielle Popstar: waves
[2012/05/22 12:04]  Sarah Kline: me too bye all
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