Chat log from the meeting on 2011-11-01

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[10:02] Sarah KlineSarah Klinehi
[10:02] Sanz: hi
[10:02] Rieeda X: seems <you have some boot problems too
[10:02] Second Life: Unable to search at this time. 
[10:02] Second Life: Teleport completed from Lbsa Plaza (129,128,38)
[10:03] dan banner: hey justin
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi folks
[10:03] Nalates Urriah: There are a number of problems with OpenGL and SLViewers. The Shining branch is supposed to have more OpenGL fixes. But, not so much for Mac.
[10:03] Nalates Urriah: Hi Dan
[10:03] BlueWall Slade: Hi Justin
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya I am using Imprudence mostly
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: and its still pretty crashy
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: i think the newest nvidia drivers screwed my computer up
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: ever since then everything is all crashy
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: even non LL stuff
[10:04] Sarah Kline: ow
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: like even Valve games are crashing constantly
[10:04] dan banner: hi sarah
[10:04] Sarah Kline: hi dan
[10:05] Nalates Urriah: Since other things have gone wrong I would assume it is more than just the Lab's render pipeline...
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya like i said im using Imprudence
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: im not using the LL viewers
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: most of the time anyway
[10:05] Juicy Babii: you say upgrade, I say downgrade, let's call the whole thing off!
[10:05] Nalates Urriah: Does Imprudence have their own render pipeline? I thought they ised LL's.
[10:06] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[10:06] BlueWall Slade: Hi Dahlia
[10:06] dan banner: hello dahlia
[10:06] Sarah Kline: hi dahlia
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: hello dahlia
[10:06] Dahlia Trimble: am I wearing hair?
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: so whats going on? anyone have anything they wanted to talk about?
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:07] BlueWall Slade: yes
[10:07] Dahlia Trimble: ty
[10:07] BlueWall Slade: you on one of them left handed viewers?
[10:07] dan banner: ive been seeing more people walking above the floor lately
[10:07] Dahlia Trimble: left handed? lol
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: like how far above?
[10:07] BlueWall Slade: roll your own
[10:08] Dahlia Trimble: ya home rolled
[10:08] dan banner: sometimes half a meter amybe more others
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: wierd
[10:08] dan banner: sometimes you stand and you stuck a few meters up
[10:08] dan banner: but its not all the time
[10:08] dan banner: just something im seeing more often
[10:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Afternoon, everyone
[10:08] Dahlia Trimble: I thought Id have avatars finished by now but I had a bad computer crash and I lost a week
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: hello Andrew
[10:09] BlueWall Slade: Hi Andrew
[10:09] Juicy Babii: sounds like the invisible terrain height bumps, sometimes you're standing on something that shouldn't exist
[10:09] dan banner: hey andrew
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: that sucks Dahlia
[10:09] dan banner: juicy its a prim floor
[10:09] dan banner: above the terrain
[10:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia reminds me that I should update the backups of my HD's
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ah so its only above terrain?
[10:09] dan banner: well ive seen it in lbsa
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think thats new honestly
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: have to keep an eye out for that, ive not noticed
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: i have noticed though
[10:10] Dahlia Trimble: I had pretty good backups but my system restore disks didnt work
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: that with the V3 viewer
[10:10] dan banner: and not everyone at the same time
[10:10] Dahlia Trimble: so no more windows 7 :(
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: when you stand up from the chairs at Lbsa
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: your still in the sitting position
[10:10] dan banner: i had it happen in astra
[10:10] BlueWall Slade: Windows 7 ate your computer?
[10:10] Sarah Kline: thats the anim holding on to you
[10:10] dan banner: oh ya ive seen that a few more times too
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: blah that sucks Dahlia, i never seem to have much luck with those system restores either
[10:10] Dahlia Trimble: no my hard disk died
[10:11] BlueWall Slade: ahhh
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: why didnt you re-install windows 7?
[10:11] Dahlia Trimble: the disks dont work
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: oh
[10:11] Nalates Urriah: Are the new neck and center attachment points going to have any affect here? Or are they just viewer side changes?
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: you have one of those machines that makes you do the backup when you 1st buy it?
[10:11] BlueWall Slade: they must be like "Mission Impossible" assignment packets.
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: they dont give you a WIndows 7 disc?
[10:11] dan banner: bad drive or damaged discs?
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: my computer came with a "restore partition" and I made the restore disks but they didnt work
[10:12] dan banner: oh
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: that sucks
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: what brand is it?
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: HP
[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know - either they will cause an exception in opensim that will need to be fixed or they will be ignroed for now
[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: I think it's unlikely they will just work
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: i know toshiba sells the Windows 7 CD for those machines for like 20$
[10:12] BlueWall Slade: will their support give you new ones?
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: HP might have a similar deal
[10:12] dan banner: HP will send you a new copy of the cd usually for free
[10:12] Nalates Urriah: Thx jcc
[10:12] Dahlia Trimble: ya I need to call them
[10:12] BlueWall Slade: I bought some restore disks for my older notebook for $35.00
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya depends on the maker i guess
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: some only charge you shipping
[10:13] Dahlia Trimble: now Im using latest ubuntu with a XP virtual box guest
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: interesting
[10:13] BlueWall Slade: UPGRADE!!!
[10:13] Dahlia Trimble: they messed up the UI a lot
[10:13] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: your running the viewer in the virtual box guest?
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya i heard a lot of bad stuff about that Unity Interface
[10:14] Dahlia Trimble: no its running on linux
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: still havent tried it
[10:14] BlueWall Slade: I have thought about doing an XP virtualbox here
[10:14] Dahlia Trimble: it cross compiles
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok, I was gonna say, thats pretty amazing if it was
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:14] Dahlia Trimble: the guest has 3d acceleration and the viewer runs pretty well in it
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: nice, thats suprising
[10:15] Andrew Hellershanks: Unity might be ok if you are completely new to Linux. It just gets in the way and slows you down if you have been using Linux foro some time.
[10:15] Dahlia Trimble: wright plaza is a little too much for it tho 
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: Andrew did you make any progress with the Linking order patches you were working on?
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: wirght plaza is too much for my relatively powerful laptop
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: getting 10 fps here
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya
[10:15] Dahlia Trimble: ya Im not a Unity fan
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: im only getting 15fps here
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: with a quad core with full blown desktop graphics
[10:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, I removed Unity from my machines within an hour or so of installation. I went and installed Gnome.
[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: but now gnome seems to need some work
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: have you thought about making this region a little less... prim intensive? :)
[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: its like they ignore gnome now that they have unity
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: heh not really Justin
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: i think its mostly the textures
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: more than the prims
[10:16] Dahlia Trimble: yep its the textures
[10:16] BlueWall Slade: OpenSUSE is coming out with 12.1 in a few days with a new Gnome
[10:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Based on some of Nebadon's other tests with OpenSim, the more prims the better. :-)
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: textures have a high graphics load?
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya much higher than prims
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: though
[10:17] Andrew Hellershanks: BlueWall, I've heard somethings about Gnome 3 that make me think its not going to be a lot better
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: Flexy prims are just horribly
[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: right now my viewer has 3282 textures loaded and 23747 prims
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: i blame dahlias hair :P
[10:17] Dahlia Trimble: :P
[10:17] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[10:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.3 Dev          a9a2406: 2011-10-31 11:11:36 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: flexi prims though are devil spawn
[10:18] BlueWall Slade: I gotta go AFK. I'll see you guys next week. Staying parked here for the log
[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: bye bluewall
[10:18] Andrew Hellershanks: k, cya BlueWall
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ok BlueWall, take care man
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: I think textures are just as bad as flexiprims
[10:18] Sarah Kline: bye blue
[10:18] dan banner: later bw
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya depends
[10:18] Dahlia Trimble: bye :)
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: 100 1024x1024 textures
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: pretty nasty
[10:18] Andrew HellershanksAndrew Hellershanks nods
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: if you keep the textures low resolution its a bit better
[10:19] Andrew Hellershanks: What I would like to see is the option of using SVG based textures
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: texutres mostly eat up your GPU's memory
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: while prims tend to eat up the GPU itself
[10:19] Dahlia Trimble: lol there are a LOT of huge textures in Wright Plaza
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: if your GPU is swapping alot cause its loaded with textures
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: thats bad
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:19] Dahlia Trimble: prims are actually pretty easy to render
[10:20] Nebadon IzumiNebadon Izumi rezzes 50 cut/hollow and complteley tortued torus
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:20] dan banner: ive noticed mesh seems to render before sculpts
[10:20] Dahlia TrimbleDahlia Trimble yawns at your torii
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: thats not suprising dan
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: since sculpt are textures
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: and can take a while to decode the data
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: depending on the overall texture load
[10:22] Andrew Hellershanks: Sculpty textures can also be big.
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: so Andrew maybe i missed it, did you get any further on the link order patches you were working on?
[10:23] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to think there was a limit of 32x32 or so but I've seen (and can also make) sculpty textures bigger than that.
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: well
[10:23] Dahlia Trimble: sculpt textures dont need to be big, the viewer doesnt use all that extra data
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: for physics its 32x32
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: max
[10:23] Dahlia Trimble: it just tosses it
[10:23] Sarah Kline: yes
[10:23] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, no. Haven't done much more on it today. I'm having a rethink on how to do it.
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya i really do not think the quality increases much
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: by making it higher resolution
[10:23] Sarah Kline: it doesnt
[10:23] Dahlia Trimble: it doesnt
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: it would if the viewer supported it
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: but that could get nasty
[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: I can't get the run to return an item as TValue so I may have to use a dictionary and an ArrayList
[10:24] Andrew Hellershanks: rather than two ArrayLists.
[10:24] Sarah Kline: in fact a 128x128 will fail
[10:24] Dahlia Trimble: look at it in wireframe mode
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: hmm ok, well just wanted to know if you wanted to bring it up was all Andrew, maybe justin or others had some insight to your issue
[10:25] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm starting to think that it might be ok since keys should all be unique values and the Values should also be unique so removing an entry from an ArrayList shouldn't be a problem finding the right entry to remove based only based on search for on value.
[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: search on value is very inefficient
[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey: these things do need to be dictionaries
[10:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, sure. I did want to bring it up. I was waiting for the other talk to wind down
[10:26] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, its not a search as such. I was going to use ArrayList. It supports things like IndexOf and RemoveAt
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, indexing is fine
[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: I like ArrayLists 
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: naturally
[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: they're easy to sue
[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: use
[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[10:27] Yoshiko Fazuku: fun
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i will sue you!!
[10:27] Dahlia Trimble: NOOOO not me
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:27] Nathan Adored: can someone countersue? oO
[10:27] Richardus Raymaker: hates sumemrtime
[10:28] Dahlia Trimble: sue Justin :)
[10:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Althought I haven't been able to reproduce the problem I think the problem may have originally resulted from the CreateArray() routine in MapAndArray.cs
[10:28] Dahlia Trimble: whats wrong with prim linking order?
[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: hello
[10:28] Yoshiko Fazuku: its not the same as sl
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: it seems to change everytime you rez or make a copy of an object
[10:28] Andrew Hellershanks: It iterates through a set of key/value pairs to rebuild a fixed array when an item was added or removed.
[10:29] Richardus Raymaker: think imissed some important info
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: i filed a mantis long while back
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: because i was unable to use link order in LSL
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: it was constantly failing
[10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it's a constant problem
[10:29] Dahlia Trimble: oh
[10:29] Andrew Hellershanks: Hash tables (key/value systems) don't guarantee order so rebuilding an array by iterating over the list of values isn't guaranteed to give the same order of items.
[10:29] Dahlia Trimble: I dont use it in LSL even in SL
[10:29] Yoshiko Fazuku: wouldent it just be easier to store prim link order when linked as properties of the object in the db?
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya there are certainly other ways to work around it
[10:30] Andrew Hellershanks: There is a second and different problem with how prims are linked which is in SceneObjectGroup
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: but it would be nice to have it work properly
[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: yoshiko: it might be - I've never had a change to look at ths problem
[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm told there's some nastiness with the way we store prim entries
[10:30] Andrew Hellershanks: I made 5 prims with a script in them that reports link number. I coloured them and linked them.
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: QUestion: does search not run in its own thread ? because if you search for people and search again my avatar freeze
[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: They report correct link numbers. I copy them, take to inventory, re-rezz and so far, numbers always cme out right.
[10:31] Andrew Hellershanks: I wonder if something was done elsewhere that may have worked around the original issue.
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect the problem is something to do with persistent storage
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: on the region, rather than within inventory, where things will be correct
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: you know Andrew it could be that i was linking and unlinking the object
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: or even editing scripts or something
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: but even if you just unlink and relink without touching anything
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: the order changed
[10:32] Andrew Hellershanks: Its also very inefficient to link prims and have to rebuild an array of the list of prims for every prim that is linked to another set.
[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: for some reason it seems you can make a copy from script in linked set back to inventory
[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: sorry cant make
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: yes,. there is some insane shittiness there
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