Chat log from the meeting on 2011-07-12

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[10:03]  Dutchy Daredevil is Online
[10:04]  BlueWall.Slade lol
[10:04]  Teleport completed from
[10:04]  The region you have entered is running a different simulator version. Click this message for details.
[10:04]  Penny Lane: Juntin! /waves
[10:04]  Nebadon Izumi: guess im not that suprised
[10:04]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[10:04]  Penny Lane: lol Justin :-)
[10:04]  Richardus Raymaker: nebadon do you still have the webpage with wright stats, traffic etc.
[10:04]  Bri Hasp: greet JCC
[10:04]  Richardus Raymaker: bandwidth
[10:04]  BlueWall.Slade Hi justin
[10:04]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[10:04]  Nebadon Izumi: Richardus hmm
[10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey hurriedly puts a shirt on
[10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey folks
[10:05]  Dutchy Daredevil: hello all
[10:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi penny, long time no see
[10:05]  Richardus Raymaker: try to figure out wharts really needed for bandwidth
[10:05]  Bri Hasp: no porn Sir
[10:05]  Nebadon Izumi:
[10:05]  Penny Lane: Justin: your blog post about Opensim licensing made my day yesterday. I was over the moon, as were tons of other people in AW Groupies
[10:05]  BlueWall.Slade Justin - are you going to make a Google+ profile?
[10:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, one way or another we're going to get rid of the 6 month thing
[10:06]  Penny Lane: Fantastic nes.
[10:06]  Richardus Raymaker: looks like wright needs 8MByte
[10:06]  Penny Lane frowns at the keyboard
[10:06]  Bri Hasp: really?
[10:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: probably - I keep getting invites so I guess I'll buckle eventually :)
[10:07]  BlueWall.Slade lol
[10:07]  Nebadon Izumi: its Mbit Richardus
[10:07]  Richardus Raymaker: oops 8Mbit
[10:07]  Penny Lane: JCC: don't bother, it's really slumming it. :-)
[10:07]  Raymond Lee: thx Dutchy
[10:07]  Richardus Raymaker: thats not bad nebadon.
[10:07]  Sarah Kline: hi all
[10:07]  Richardus Raymaker: thats pretty good news
[10:07]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont see it actually going that high though
[10:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi sarah
[10:07]  SinSeer.Discordia thank you bluewall for the google+ post reminder :)
[10:08]  Raymond Lee: Hello everybody :)
[10:08]  Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah
[10:08]  BlueWall.Slade hehe
[10:08]  dan banner: hi everyone
[10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dan
[10:08]  Nebadon Izumi: everyone just getting here
[10:08]  Sarah Kline: hi again dan
[10:08]  Bri Hasp: Justin to keep viewer 1 users from torment.. is there a method to block viewer 1 at region level?
[10:08]  BlueWall.Slade they will probably kill the account eventually
[10:08]  Raymond Lee: Hey Dan, Sarah
[10:08]  Penny Lane: I'm only there on G+ to see which way Google goes with banning pseudonyms. I don't really expect anything good from them. Like others have said "Google doesn't get social".
[10:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: What is a Google+ profile compared to a Google profile?
[10:08]  SinSeer.Discordia yes i wou;dnt doubt it
[10:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: not right now
[10:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: My virtual and real identities are identical anyway, so I don't have that problem
[10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:09]  Bri Hasp: the have a garbage experience as you know, 3D, mesh, moap, shadows etc no capable.
[10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: i was using my real name on google+ but decided to change it to my avatar name
[10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: see how google reacts
[10:09]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:09]  Richardus Raymaker: sounds like google folows facebook
[10:09]  SinSeer.Discordia have they put any official word about that yet?
[10:09]  Sarah Kline: well Bri if they see, then they will change to V2 maybe
[10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: it seems like the are moving towards not allowing avatar names
[10:10]  Bri Hasp: to me ismore a Twitter on steroids
[10:10]  Penny Lane: Andrew: It's still being figured out. Quite a few people have been banned because their G+ profile is not RL, but apparently there's a dispute within Google, and it's not enforced except by a few hard liners
[10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: but so far ive not actually seen anyone have their account locked
[10:10]  BlueWall.Slade we should get Tom on our side!
[10:10]  Penny Lane: Several, Neb
[10:10]  BlueWall.Slade lol
[10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: ya ive heard some people have
[10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: but i dont know anyone
[10:10]  Nebadon Izumi: i know i havent yet
[10:10]  SinSeer.Discordia i really like g+, i'd still use it even if they forced me to use my real name. i just wouln't use it as much, or be able to add as many people
[10:10]  Penny Lane: Our friend Opensource Obscure is one.
[10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: what i heard was
[10:11]  SinSeer.Discordia but yeah sorry its opensim time not g+ time
[10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: they were going to allow it
[10:11]  Penny Lane: Good point Sin
[10:11]  SinSeer.Discordia that'd be so sweet.
[10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: but if you change your name constantly your account wil get locked
[10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: that you have to pick a name and stick with it
[10:11]  Nebadon Izumi: but ive heard all kinds of stuff going in both directions
[10:11]  Penny Lane: Hi Dutchy :-)
[10:12]  BlueWall.Slade I like the looks of it for something like groups.
[10:12]  BlueWall.Slade maybe it will bomb na dthey will opensource it like wave
[10:12]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:12]  Raymond Lee: I have a question about OSSL if it's appropriate to ask here?
[10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont see it totally bombing like wave
[10:13]  Penny Lane: For a while I thought we might be able to use G+ for Opensim group chat, nicely interoperable beteen worlds, once it has an API.
[10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: its already way more popular than wave was
[10:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: plaese go ahead
[10:13]  Richardus Raymaker: but for how long, i heared the blocked the translator stuff more to
[10:13]  Nebadon Izumi: yes Translator API is going to be shut down in October
[10:13]  Raymond Lee: Specifically about collisions and combat support - is this developed as far as it's going to go?
[10:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: Just looked at the website. Google+ looks a bit like some of the other social networking sites. Nothing there of interest for me.
[10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its already crippled now until then
[10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: you can only make like 100 requests per 24 hours right now
[10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: then it stops answering
[10:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: No more free translations? I wonder how many translator devices will break.
[10:14]  SinSeer.Discordia oh THATS why my imprudence translator stops working
[10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: well no more API
[10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: the website will still work
[10:14]  Nebadon Izumi: just apps wont be able to access the free api anymore
[10:14]  dan banner: yes sinseer i've had to change IP to fix it
[10:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: not necessarily, but further development does depend on people contributing code
[10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: apparantly there was wide scale abuse, and it was a major drain on resources and money
[10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what google is claiming
[10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: no doubt it wasnt making them any money
[10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: by forcing you to the website they can atleast do google ads
[10:15]  Nebadon Izumi: offset some of the costs
[10:15]  dan banner: true
[10:16]  BlueWall.Slade would be cool to make some api for combat, etc.
[10:17]  SinSeer.Discordia i would LOV emore combat features (and fixed bots so i could blast them outta the sky) that'd be soooooo sweet.
[10:17]  Raymond Lee: Thanks, Justin - I'm thinking of getting into the collision to put something like havok's collision detection in there
[10:17]  Raymond Lee: I'm having probs with fast bullets passing the targets
[10:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: actually using havok as a physics engine?
[10:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: fyi, intel are working on a physics engine using bullet rather than ode
[10:17]  BlueWall.Slade another issue seems to be the avatar capsule size and shape
[10:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know if that would affect things
[10:17]  Raymond Lee: Not actually havok, but putting something resembling that solution in the collision part
[10:17]  BlueWall.Slade I have had that with arrows
[10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think it would actually be part of the physics engine
[10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: it would just be a layer that passes the information to the physics engine
[10:18]  BlueWall.Slade with that being said - we need the raytrace thing
[10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: llCastRay()?
[10:18]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be nice to have
[10:18]  BlueWall.Slade yea
[10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: then you can do laser pointers and stuff
[10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: laser scope
[10:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: what is that used for, general scripting?
[10:19]  SinSeer.Discordia oooooooo that sounds awesome
[10:19]  Bri Hasp: take cre that you are looking at Havok not LL Havok
[10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:19]  BlueWall.Slade would be good for weapons
[10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: it allows you to basically do what a laser does
[10:19]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah
[10:19]  Nebadon Izumi: point it at something and it returns coordinates of what its hitting
[10:19]  Justin Clark-Casey: right
[10:19]  Raymond Lee: The idea they have is to follow a physical object with a phantom that is sized proportionally to the object's velocity that'd detect objects that it's passed through
[10:19]  BlueWall.Slade that would be better than collision
[10:20]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:20]  Raymond Lee: then pop it back on a ricochet course
[10:21]  Raymond Lee: Not sure if we're allowed to use the physx engine as well, are we?
[10:21]  Nebadon Izumi: there is no support for physx
[10:21]  Nebadon Izumi: license wise it should be fine
[10:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think you would need physcis engine support for that
[10:22]  Nebadon Izumi: Havok is pretty much out of the question
[10:22]  BlueWall.Slade the bullet work that Intel is doing should help.
[10:22]  BlueWall.Slade I'm not sure what the differences are between Bluuet and ODE though
[10:22]  BlueWall.Slade *Bullet
[10:22]  Nebadon Izumi: Intel owns Havok and they cant even use it without purchasing the license
[10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: which is very expensive
[10:23]  Raymond Lee: yeah, I know havok is out - kjust speculating on what we'd need to replicate from their idea - chinese wall style?
[10:23]  Nebadon Izumi: even then we would not be able to distirbute anything related to havok in our source code
[10:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm not a physics expert so I can't help much
[10:23]  SinSeer.Discordia me neither, i just wanna shoot stuff
[10:24]  SinSeer.Discordia alot. hmmm. that cant be healthy.
[10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: Raymond their is no source code available from Havok unless you spend a lot of money
[10:24]  Raymond Lee: Me too - plus I wanna see some boobies bnounce . . .
[10:24]  BlueWall.Slade lol
[10:24]  SinSeer.Discordia they already bounce!
[10:24]  Richardus Raymaker: use the right viewer ^^
[10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats already done
[10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: thats not simulator physics
[10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: its viewer physics
[10:24]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be way overkill for the simulator to also do avatar physics
[10:24]  Raymond Lee: I only want to replicate the idea using OS framework
[10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: it should already work in OpenSimulator Raymond
[10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: those functions are all viewer side
[10:25]  Andrew Hellershanks: Are the lighting changes in viewer 2 yet? LL was showing off a demo of new lighting back when they started talking about mesh support.
[10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: yes Andrew
[10:25]  Raymond Lee: And I'm gonna be getting my g/fs into OS since I know they can wobble the way I like here as well ;)
[10:25]  Nebadon Izumi: lighting is crazy different in V2
[10:26]  BlueWall.Slade the windlight
[10:26]  Bri Hasp: sighs :(
[10:26]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, ok. I'll have to check that out sometime.
[10:26]  BlueWall.Slade that is just in a separate viewer, right?
[10:26]  Nebadon Izumi:
[10:26]  Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, AH, ok. I didn't know that is the name for it. I had heard of it.
[10:26]  Richardus Raymaker: thats still just 1 thing i really like from V2 more lights
[10:26]  Nebadon Izumi:
[10:27]  Richardus Raymaker: glow im still not so happy with
[10:27]  BlueWall.Slade there is a difference in the lights
[10:27]  BlueWall.Slade the windlight, though - that is the atmospneric / environment
[10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: you can also do projectors too
[10:27]  Nebadon Izumi: which is awesome
[10:27]  Raymond Lee: Hey! Am I double-posting at all?
[10:27]  Nebadon Izumi:
[10:27]  Sarah Kline: the new lighting in SL will be a mess...given all the light sources in builds and avatars
[10:28]  BlueWall.Slade heh, 800 face lights
[10:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: no
[10:28]  Nebadon Izumi: Sarah, well the way it works now the viewer will only render as many light sources as the hardware can handle
[10:28]  Raymond Lee: Ok, thanks - that's been solved by OS and Imprudence, then
[10:28]  SinSeer.Discordia eyes nebs fancy magic hud
[10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: and we already have ability to disable face lights in a simulator
[10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:29]  Nebadon Izumi: that hud is in SL
[10:29]  Bri Hasp: I'm using JCC master form yesterday and Viewer 2 on OSg happy with it all
[10:29]  Sarah Kline: well its SL problem not ours anyway
[10:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: good - you're using mesh?
[10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: heh ya I am sure there will be all kinds of new problems with V2
[10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: but the lighting system in V2 is not new
[10:30]  Bri Hasp: Shadows and detail are improved
[10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: its been there since the day V2 came out pretty much
[10:30]  Bri Hasp: yep.. wish people would just adapt and move on
[10:30]  Sarah Kline: well the mesh viewer was the first to have really decent stuff
[10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, its improved alot since V2 came out
[10:31]  Richardus Raymaker: waiting for the right gui bri in viewer.
[10:31]  BlueWall.Slade I think they just exposed it more in the mesh beta
[10:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the scales are tipping
[10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: most of the major issues with V2 anymore are all UI issues
[10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: the engine is pretty solid
[10:31]  SinSeer.Discordia still only two v2 viewers that do mesh, right?
[10:31]  Bri Hasp: UI is more familiarity me thinks
[10:31]  Sarah Kline: yes
[10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: personally i dont mind V2 that much anymore
[10:31]  Us Vemo: dd50
[10:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure tpvs can improve the ui
[10:31]  Nebadon Izumi: at 1st it was a major shock, but ive come to live with it
[10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia i coul dprobably get used to it, if they put an ao into it
[10:32]  Sarah Kline: I am forcing myself to use firestorm there and am slowly getting used to it
[10:32]  Richardus Raymaker: i tried V2 viewer a few timnes. but some things you cannot open dpouble in kirsten as example. so thats bad
[10:32]  BlueWall.Slade if they could detach the windows, that would make a difference
[10:32]  Sarah Kline: its a shock to come backto 1.23
[10:32]  Bri Hasp: Kirsten or LL mesah are the only choices
[10:32]  Bri Hasp: mesh^
[10:32]  Nebadon Izumi: I think you can detach most windows now Bluewall
[10:32]  Nebadon Izumi: even side bar
[10:32]  Richardus Raymaker: the sidebar is the biggest dont use reason i think
[10:32]  Sarah Kline: at the moment yes Bri
[10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah i got kirstens viewer the other day - gonna try some of my garbage-beginner meshs i made soon
[10:32]  BlueWall.Slade they let you detache the side bar - but it would be nice to be able to drag them outside of the viewer window
[10:32]  Adelle Fitzgerald is Online
[10:33]  Sarah Kline: Richard the TPV's have killed that
[10:33]  Richardus Raymaker: i know, but thats where we waiting for
[10:33]  Richardus Raymaker: and thats why nobody can move on..
[10:33]  Sarah Kline: firestorm has brought back Pie menus lol!
[10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its just a matter of time now before the TPVs are all pushing V2 interfaces
[10:33]  Penny Lane: You don't have to suffer the V2 UI. Firestorm has made it go away completely (if you choose)
[10:33]  Nebadon Izumi: which will be a good thing
[10:33]  Bri Hasp: yep
[10:34]  Richardus Raymaker: but, neve rfound a 64bit firestorm
[10:34]  Sarah Kline: Kokura will follow
[10:34]  SinSeer.Discordia hmmmm that's sweet, if they put mesh into firestorm i'd try that
[10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: ya there was even talk that Kokua might use the Firestorm source code as its base
[10:34]  BlueWall.Slade so, I wonder if the LL windlight implementation is the same as the Lightshare one??
[10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: since its so far along already
[10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: i am not sure if they ever fully decided on that or not
[10:34]  Sarah Kline: its not sadly
[10:34]  Penny Lane: Neb: that would be very cool. Everyone reinventing the whole wheel makes little sense.
[10:34]  Nebadon Izumi: but it was brought up a few weeks back
[10:35]  Sarah Kline: Phoenix have own version of it
[10:35]  Sarah Kline: but not as good as lightshare imo
[10:35]  BlueWall.Slade Lightshare missed the mark on the variables
[10:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, moving windows outside the main one might be handy but based on what I hear over at the GIMP project, Windows users prefer a single window interface (or can't handle a multiple window one, maybe because it just looks different from what they are used to)
[10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: it would have been nice if they made it an asset type
[10:36]  BlueWall.Slade they don't seem to convert too well
[10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: so people could share/sell lightshare settings
[10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: sort of like a notecard or something
[10:36]  Sarah Kline: I think that is the Pheonix thing
[10:36]  Sarah Kline: you can trade cards
[10:36]  Nebadon Izumi: thats cool
[10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: thats how it should be
[10:37]  Richardus Raymaker: for gimp a single window works a bit more easy in my view. but seperate windows work fine to
[10:37]  BlueWall.Slade Neb, there is an asset type in some viewers that write them to a notecard
[10:37]  Raymond Lee: the gimp is a prob because the toolsets don't minimise at all
[10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: nice
[10:37]  Richardus Raymaker: but SL is not gimp
[10:37]  BlueWall.Slade but, the format is different from lightshare
[10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ah
[10:37]  Sarah Kline: yes
[10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: well as long as it translates it
[10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be nice to have a standardized format though
[10:37]  Sarah Kline: never tried
[10:37]  BlueWall.Slade we will probably need to rip out lightshare and replace it
[10:37]  Sarah Kline: yes it would
[10:37]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, I've been using GIMP for well over 10 years and never thought twice about the MDI layout of GIMP.
[10:37]  Raymond Lee: richardus: they're both UIs
[10:38]  Richardus Raymaker: i use gimp more to. and it works fine
[10:38]  Richardus Raymaker: but used paint shop pro to
[10:38]  BlueWall.Slade Kat Berry did the notecard saving version
[10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: is she still working on SL stuff?
[10:39]  BlueWall.Slade not sure
[10:39]  Richardus Raymaker: but the SL2 gui you never know where things are. symbols dont say enough. besides you cant open more profiles. maby now you can
[10:39]  Nebadon Izumi: havent spoken to her in ages
[10:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: you used to?
[10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ya we spoke a few times
[10:40]  Nebadon Izumi: mostly in the Imprudence channel
[10:40]  BlueWall.Slade but, when we get the CLA strightened out, she might help us with that
[10:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim issues today?
[10:41]  SinSeer.Discordia i have had no new issues personally!
[10:41]  Raymond Lee: is there an estimated shcedule for the next release?
[10:41]  Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid release or OpenSimulator Release?
[10:41]  Raymond Lee: opensim
[10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: no
[10:42]  Raymond Lee: k
[10:42]  Bri Hasp: I notice a lot of cloud Av on mesh viewers and enabled instances
[10:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm anticipating next couple of months. I would like to wait until mesh has been deployed on the ll grid
[10:42]  Bri Hasp: have to work hard to clear them
[10:42]  Bri Hasp: '
[10:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: so that it's not going to change again underneath
[10:42]  Us Vemo: is there somebody working on the physics or grid crossings right now?
[10:42]  Bri Hasp: kk
[10:42]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[10:42]  Sarah Kline: lol yes
[10:42]  Nebadon Izumi: there are several people wokring on new physics Us Vemo
[10:43]  Bri Hasp: we used to... now use mega
[10:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: intel are working on bullet. I don't think anybody is actively working on grid crossings. They seem pretty okay to me right now, though it's hard to tell when machines are hosted in different places
[10:43]  Us Vemo: can you give me their names please?
[10:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: mega?
[10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: Crista/Diva is on vacation at the moment so HG development has been slow to none
[10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: probably pick up again before the end of the month
[10:43]  Bri Hasp: yep crosses are a big issue for sailing
[10:43]  Nebadon Izumi: Us Vemo, most of the new physics work is being done by Intel
[10:43]  Us Vemo: i mean no script resets at crossings and full state saves
[10:44]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[10:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: I though tthat was configurable
[10:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[10:44]  Sarah Kline: hi dahlia
[10:44]  Bri Hasp: but mega pushed crosses off our list
[10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: Us Vemo, unfortunatly some of that is very unsafe in an open grid
[10:44]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[10:44]  Raymond Lee: justin: Is there a min-thingy for intel's bullet work? Like something that says what they're hoping to do?
[10:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: state save should be ok
[10:44]  BlueWall.Slade the best bet for vehicles crossing is a non-phys mover
[10:44]  Penny Lane waves at Dahlia
[10:44]  Nebadon Izumi: and likely will never be fully available accross HG and Open Grids
[10:44]  Us Vemo: but it should be in the in the standard config to allow flying and sailing
[10:44]  BlueWall.Slade Hi Dahlia
[10:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: in the mialing list, I think
[10:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: you're talking about the AllowScriptCrossing setting?
[10:45]  BlueWall.Slade Us: the sim can't pass physics sessions
[10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: yet anyway
[10:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: there's a different bewteene script state saving and binary passing, I believe
[10:45]  Us Vemo: i am not sure at this moment... but there are some issues with simcrossings and scripts resetting
[10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: physics is more doable than scripting
[10:45]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:45]  Sarah Kline: real megas would be a better solution
[10:45]  Justin Clark-Casey: binary passing is always completely unsafe, but state save/load hsould be fine
[10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: but the harsh part is the binary
[10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: state is nice, but wont improve performance really
[10:46]  Bri Hasp: Aurora
[10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: make sure you have AllowScriptCrossing = true in [Startup] for both source and destination regions
[10:46]  Us Vemo: oh it does...
[10:46]  Us Vemo: ok
[10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, performance is just one part of it
[10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:46]  Us Vemo: i will try that
[10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: when your talking about vehicles though
[10:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yes, I believe they have a variable sized regio nimplementation
[10:46]  Nebadon Izumi: thats very important
[10:47]  Bri Hasp: I have on as a standalone
[10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: the only way its gonna ever work in a open grid like OSgrid is will need to be able to establish a trust list or something
[10:47]  Sarah Kline: yes its huge I had a 2048x2048m region lol
[10:47]  Andrew Hellershanks: I thought the .ini said there could be potential problems allowing script crossing.
[10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: even then its risky
[10:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: if so, there's nothing there right now
[10:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: works well?
[10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: script binaries yes Andrew
[10:47]  Nebadon Izumi: passing state should be relateively benign
[10:47]  BlueWall.Slade I wonder about the sandbox in the thing that Adam did?
[10:47]  Bri Hasp: well it shows promise
[10:48]  Us Vemo: anybody besides intel working on physics
[10:48]  Raymond Lee: Just as a quick admin aside - implementing 0.7.2, do I just swap out the old bin folder for the new one?
[10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: my understanding about physics is thats passed as part of the prim property
[10:48]  Nebadon Izumi: i know melanie knows a good deal about that
[10:48]  Bri Hasp: it needs a special viewer as well
[10:48]  Us Vemo: yes physics is working better in Avination
[10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling Avination has that worked out
[10:49]  Us Vemo: not sure what she as done there
[10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i remember speaking to melanie about it
[10:49]  Sarah Kline: will they tell us?
[10:49]  Us Vemo: ohh what did she say
[10:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: bri: yeah. hopefully it will spread to other viewers
[10:49]  BlueWall.Slade lol, doubtful
[10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: it was long while back, but if i recall it was something about having to figure out the packet load
[10:49]  Nebadon Izumi: and that LL had not documented any of it
[10:49]  Us Vemo: ok
[10:50]  Us Vemo: hmm
[10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: No, the best approach is to configure a separate 0.7.2 dev version, and manually port over any config settings you have
[10:50]  BlueWall.Slade fatpacks?
[10:50]  Penny Lane is shocked! LL not documenting stuff?
[10:50]  Dahlia Trimble: what physics issue are you discussing?
[10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: i can ask her again, generally melanie is willing to eventually share all that stuff they do
[10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: but she is very busy
[10:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: nothing specific
[10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: and its not always easy for her to pick out certain changes without many hours of work
[10:50]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, There is one directory you will probably want to copy from the old to the new if you need to preserve object/script states
[10:50]  BlueWall.Slade sim border crossings: Dahlia
[10:50]  Us Vemo: well i have my animals flying in avination with physics
[10:50]  Nebadon Izumi: and generally her group has a 6 month grace
[10:50]  xstorm Radek is Online
[10:51]  Us Vemo: thats was so simple
[10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: where they dont commit drastic changes like that to core for atleast 6 months
[10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: to sorta give them an edge over the other grids
[10:51]  Raymond Lee: Andrew: assets, right?
[10:51]  Sarah Kline: dont they use the xmrs engine from M7?
[10:51]  Us Vemo: ok... well it worked like 4 months ago
[10:51]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't mind what people do, as long as they don't block anything happening in opensim
[10:51]  BlueWall.Slade I guess that was the "fatpack" work that came into core about 3 months ago
[10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think so Sarah
[10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: they have thier own stuff
[10:51]  Sarah Kline: ok
[10:51]  Us Vemo: exacttly my view Justin
[10:51]  BlueWall.Slade I suppose they extended it to carry the physics sessions too
[10:51]  Nebadon Izumi: Avination is way more advanced that M7 ever was
[10:52]  Us Vemo: sim crossings are bad there... but physics is ok... with one exception
[10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I cant remember exactly what Melanie Said now bluewall
[10:52]  Us Vemo: not allowed with physics and fantom....
[10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: but it was a matter of figuring out the packet load
[10:52]  BlueWall.Slade I remember discussion about that work leading up to physics crossings
[10:52]  Nebadon Izumi: and how to interpret the physics data from prim properties
[10:52]  Us Vemo: yes
[10:53]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, not assets. I'd have to look at my grid to remember which one.
[10:54]  Us Vemo: it is important to be able to use physics movement with a fantom object, Melanie said that it would be hard work to implement that for som reason i dont understand
[10:54]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont know about packet load, maybe its something else. Megaregions are like huge regions that look like groups of regions to a normal viewer, so it would seem they would have packet load issues too then
[10:54]  Raymond Lee: Ok, when you can, Andrew, but I'll be trying out a few test imps to see what works and what doesn't anyway . . .
[10:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, ScriptEngines directory to preserve state of scripted items.
[10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: well there is no real border cross in a mega region though Dahlia
[10:54]  Dahlia Trimble: but there is
[10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: when you cross a border there is no comms for that
[10:54]  BlueWall.Slade all the movement in a megaregion are projected from the root region
[10:54]  Nebadon Izumi: not to physics though
[10:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: megaregions are a huge hack :)
[10:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, what version were you running before?
[10:54]  Dahlia Trimble: the viewer has to be told its switching to a new region
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its not\
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: thats the thing
[10:55]  BlueWall.Slade I talked to Mic about doding the same thing with regular regions for crossings
[10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: and new comm channels have to be openes
[10:55]  Raymond Lee:
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: in a mega region its not switching to a new region
[10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: opened
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: your always in the SW region
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: no matter how far you go
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: thats what the viewer thinks
[10:55]  Dahlia Trimble: but the viewer doesnt know that
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: you can not access parcel data outside of the SW region
[10:55]  Sarah Kline: the child thing is a real problem though
[10:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: man
[10:55]  Nebadon Izumi: like say you cross the region border from SW region in a mega, it does not get new parcel data
[10:56]  Sarah Kline: agent
[10:56]  BlueWall.Slade you can't set media, etc.
[10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[10:56]  BlueWall.Slade only in the root region
[10:56]  Dahlia Trimble: not sure it does in regular regions either, they just swap from child agents to regular agents. the comms have already been opened
[10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: and your always a root agent
[10:56]  Nebadon Izumi: in the SW region no matter where you are
[10:56]  Us Vemo: does anyone have a link to some reading about intels work on bullet?
[10:57]  BlueWall.Slade and if you teleport in, you might get slammed back to the root
[10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think there is anything Us Vemo
[10:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: try looking through the opensim-dev mailing list
[10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: the documentation is in the source code
[10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: ya there is a email on mailing list
[10:57]  BlueWall.Slade 14:15 < CIA-52> opensim: cmickeyb bulletsim * r1f3e42adf37c /prebuild.xml: 
14:15 < CIA-52> opensim: reorder bulletsim and convex decomposition projects in 
 prebuild.xml. seems
14:15 < CIA-52> opensim: to fix the build on mono/linux.
[10:57]  Nebadon Izumi: but it doesnt say much
[10:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: or speak to them on irc - there really isn't a lot of external doc
[10:57]  Us Vemo: ok thanks
[10:57]  BlueWall.Slade that was posted just a little while ago in IRC
[10:57]  Dahlia Trimble: I have no scripts on my avatar and my region crossings can be quite fast
[10:57]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think bulletsim has a ways to go yet
[10:57]  SinSeer.Discordia any chance on another look at bot appearance soon? (it's okay to say no!)
[10:57]  Us Vemo: what channel?
[10:58]  Nebadon Izumi: on IRC in opensim-dev look for > dslake, cmickeyb, and radams or radams1
[10:58]  Us Vemo: great thanks
[10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: david in opensim-users actually asked about that today. Going to reply to him later on. Maybe we can even get some resource on it
[10:58]  BlueWall.Slade yeah, crossings are not bad
[10:58]  SinSeer.Discordia OOooOOoooOOOoo sounds good!
[10:58]  Raymond Lee: thx, neb
[10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: otherwise I'm still slowly working on it, currently laying some regression test framework
[10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: but it's not high priority
[10:58]  SinSeer.Discordia oh yeah, understandable
[10:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: for me, unfortunately, other things press
[10:58]  SinSeer.Discordia i'm just bloodthirsty
[10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: :)
[10:59]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:59]  SinSeer.Discordia once i realized bots had health too
[10:59]  Us Vemo: Justin what are you working on right now?
[10:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: us: opensim-wise or generally?
[10:59]  Us Vemo: well both actually
[11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: recently I've been working on mesh issues, because that's quite a big thing with education, serious use people
[11:00]  Us Vemo: yes
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: that and it keeps me from whining to much
[11:00]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[11:00]  Us Vemo: lol
[11:00]  BlueWall.Slade hehe
[11:00]  Sarah Kline: )
[11:00]  Raymond Lee: *chuckle*
[11:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: still want to sort out memory usage there. other than that, I need to get experience with big grid issues
[11:00]  Dahlia Trimble: Ive seen you poking around in Meshmerizer >.>
[11:00]  BlueWall.Slade justin - any eta on the CLA?
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: oh ya Dahlia, we got alot of the physics mesh issues worked out
[11:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, Justing: On IRC you were talking about whether mesh would make sculpties go away. Probably not for a while. The difference in upload cost will be an issue for some people.
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: Actively pursuing it at the moment - currently waiting for Ben to get back on an e-mail
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: all those problems i had are no longer a problem
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: things are working pretty good
[11:01]  BlueWall.Slade thanks for working on that
[11:01]  Dahlia Trimble: what was the problem nebadon?
[11:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: believe me, it can be a real pain in the arse. These issues always are
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: you can even resize a mesh now and its updates the physics
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: Justin can explain that better Dahlia
[11:01]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[11:02]  Us Vemo: thats great
[11:02]  Sarah Kline: at the moment there is an issue that scuplts use less prims than the same thing made in mesh
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yeah, I fixed up a few issues with meshes. Still need to make sure there isn't a memory leak
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: that might be so Sarah
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: but
[11:02]  SinSeer.Discordia that's... a little... strange isn't it?
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: you can only texture 1 face of a sculpty
[11:02]  Us Vemo: but that is not on issue here is it?
[11:02]  Sarah Kline: in SL ^^
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: where a mesh can texture 8 faces
[11:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. How is the prim cost for a mesh calculated?
[11:02]  Sarah Kline: PE
[11:02]  Sarah Kline: whatever that is sorry dont know
[11:02]  Dahlia Trimble: there may be a memory leak when meshes are resized, but thats true for any prim or sculpt too
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: well a basic cube with no texture costs 150L$
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: its kind of odd how they calculate cost
[11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: generally speaking, I need to get some work. Talking with a few people but nothing long term yet
[11:03]  Dahlia Trimble: cost is a LL issue
[11:03]  Us Vemo: thats just stupid
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: but i imagine they are still working it out
[11:03]  Dahlia Trimble: not opensim
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: 150? They've upped the cost. Originally they were saying it was going to be L$100
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: well
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: it might be that Andrew
[11:03]  Sarah Kline: yes we will benifit from mesh
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing is final
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: this was on the LL beta grid using fake money
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: they still have much to do
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: ppl might want a resource cost thing in opensim but I don't know when that would happen
[11:04]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah you guys have to perfect that, i just reinstalled my 3dsmax
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i did notice that yesterdays Mesh development viewer
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's not top of my list of interests, for instance
[11:04]  SinSeer.Discordia (kidding, it's awesome so far)
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: the upload window changed once again
[11:04]  Sarah Kline: yes...its not august yet
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: but it still is functional in opensim
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: :)
[11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, what sort of resource cost thing?
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: they have a bit more data now about costs
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: for uploading a mesh
[11:04]  Us Vemo: have you seen this blogpost:
[11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: AH, right.
[11:04]  Sarah Kline: hahah I saw that today
[11:04]  Us Vemo: i dont know if she is correct
[11:04]  Raymond Lee: Is there a money framework somewhere we can bolt onto our standalone regions a fiddle with?
[11:05]  Sarah Kline: shes upset she cant make trees
[11:05]  Dahlia Trimble: their costs are also based on their implementation costs, which also dont apply to OpenSIm
[11:05]  Us Vemo: i have done some scripoting for her
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: its too early to declare anything is dead
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: nothing is final
[11:05]  Us Vemo: but i dont know if she is acurate
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: she is not
[11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: raymond: look in the opensim feature matrix, thuogh I don't know the state of each framework
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: once it hits main grid and LL declares its the final deal
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: then we'll know
[11:05]  Sarah Kline: yep
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: anything before that is speculation
[11:05]  SinSeer.Discordia i find it hard to credit the death of mesh when they haven't even finalized pricing yet... seems like mostly people are complaining about that
[11:05]  Us Vemo: yes i agree
[11:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, and then we can release opensim with some kind of mesh implementation :)
[11:05]  Us Vemo: but it could be a bonus for OS dont you think
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: it already is
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: it works great right now
[11:06]  Us Vemo: if they took that move
[11:06]  Bri Hasp: easier to bitch and whine
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: well
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but who knows what will change again between now and release
[11:06]  Us Vemo: yes thats what i mean
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say, they have a fine line to walk
[11:06]  Sarah Kline: its all about creating product over there though
[11:06]  Us Vemo: exactly
[11:06]  BlueWall.Slade it's hard to predict anything involving LL
[11:06]  Dahlia Trimble: if they drop mesh for some reason, it will still be a boost for opensim
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: they might keep the cost a bit higher at 1st
[11:06]  Us Vemo: that would be great for OS
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: mesh is important for a lot of serious use people
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: as to prevent a huge deluge of content storming in
[11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: because the mesh viewer bits are out there
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: or at least, it's quite a barrier factor not having a proper implementation
[11:07]  SinSeer.Discordia mesh is also important because omg have you seen the size of google 3d warehouse?
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, but alot of that stuff is crap
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: real crap
[11:07]  SinSeer.Discordia thats okay, i don't mind wading through it
[11:07]  Dahlia Trimble: ya but theres a lot of junk in 3d warehouse
[11:07]  Us Vemo: lol
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: but then you have to remember that only a very small number of models will import properly to an sl environment
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: neb told me that the other day :)
[11:07]  Sarah Kline: lol
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: almost no content on google 3d warehouse will
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i would guess maybe 1 in 1000 mesh on google will
[11:08]  SinSeer.Discordia really? granted i only tried like 3 of em, but they worked
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: you got lucky
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: very lucky
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:08]  SinSeer.Discordia damn shoulda bought a lottery ticket
[11:08]  Sarah Kline: with the first mesh viewer i got some really nice things inworld
[11:08]  Us Vemo: what arethe main problem of importing them?
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: how they are created
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has some strict guidlines
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: that virtually no one in the real world would follow
[11:08]  Us Vemo: hehe
[11:08]  Sarah Kline: )
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: most free mesh are pretty sloppy
[11:09]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont blame them for most of the guidelines but some are kinda out of line
[11:09]  BlueWall.Slade embrace and extend the collada format?
[11:09]  SinSeer.Discordia is it stuff that could be easily switched in a 3d program if you had your sources?
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: right, if you really know what your doing
[11:09]  Sarah Kline: possible but better to make your own stuff
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: fixing them is probably not a huge strech
[11:09]  SinSeer.Discordia oh. i do NOT really know what i'm doing
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: but dont expect that you will be able to download any old mesh off the web and it will work
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: also
[11:09]  Us Vemo: what are the most common problems?
[11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond, there is an add on money module you can play with. Its not recommended for use with real currency.
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: alot of Collada mesh use Direct X formated textures
[11:10]  Sarah Kline: lol you cant tell
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: like models
[11:10]  SinSeer.Discordia nah, but i better look it up if i want to create stuff
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: most of those are textures with Directx or OpenGL specific textures
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: which are not compatible with LL viewer
[11:10]  Us Vemo: ahh ok
[11:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: Blue, I'd prefer to see some other format used instead of Collada so I could export directly from Rhino
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: not hard to fix, but its extra steps
[11:10]  Us Vemo: i didnt know that
[11:10]  Raymond Lee: thx, andrew, that'll be handy to fix up for the project I have in hand . . .
[11:10]  Nebadon Izumi: LL viewer only supports the texture formats it always has
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: TGA, PNG, BMP
[11:11]  Us Vemo: yes
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: none of which are really optimized for video games in general
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: and alot of mesh are being designed for WebGL
[11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: do the increase texture size ?
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: so they will have textures that are optimized for that
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: like content
[11:11]  Dahlia Trimble: lunch time, bye all :)
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: see ya Dahlia
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:11]  BlueWall.Slade see ya Dahlia
[11:11]  Sarah Kline: bye dahlia
[11:11]  Raymond Lee: cya Dahlia
[11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia
[11:11]  SinSeer.Discordia have a good one dahlia
[11:12]  Dahlia Trimble is Offline
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I'd better get on too
[11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, thanks for coming good meet up
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: see you guys around
[11:12]  BlueWall.Slade take care Justin
[11:12]  Us Vemo: well this was a great meeting... got some great info... thanks a lot
[11:12]  Sarah Kline: bye justin
[11:12]  Nebadon Izumi: same time next week :)
[11:12]  Us Vemo: see you
[11:12]  Bri Hasp: ciao and TY Y'all
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: :)
[11:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: Raymond,
[11:12]  Raymond Lee: Thx, Justin
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