Chat log from the meeting on 2011-07-05

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[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:43]  Vivian Klees: also known as hot dogs
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:43]  Jack Benimble: I'm doing burgers
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:43]  Jack Benimble: potato salad and baked beans
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:43]  Vivian Klees: no apple pie?
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:44]  dan banner: mmm potato salad sounds good
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:44]  Jack Benimble whispers: you bringing some?
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:44]  Vivian Klees: yes it does
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:44]  Vivian Klees: cole slaw
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:45]  Doctor Rorrim: still a cloud ?????
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:45]  Vivian Klees: yeppers
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:45]  Jack Benimble: hate to say it, but the Wal Mart here does a great potato salad
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:45]  Doctor Rorrim: heck fire
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:45]  dan banner: yeah i like their potato salad
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:45]  dan banner: and their macaroni salad is good too
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:47]  Vivian Klees: sometimes I wish other stores deli sections were better
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:47]  dan banner: or as cheap
[17:46]  [2011/07/03 19:47]  Vivian Klees: yes
[17:49]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Vivian
[17:49]  Vivian Klees: hi Dutchy
[17:49]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Neb
[17:49]  Nebadon Izumi: hello
[17:49]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Richardus
[17:50]  Vivian Klees: Hi RiRa, Nebadon
[17:50]  Richardus Raymaker: hi d
[17:50]  Richardus Raymaker: hi v
[17:54]  Sarah Kline is Online
[17:55]  dan banner: hi everyone
[17:55]  Nebadon Izumi: hello
[17:55]  Key Gruin: hi all
[17:55]  Richardus Raymaker: hello neb
[17:55]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Dan
[17:55]  Vivian Klees: Hi Key
[17:56]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Key
[17:56]  Key Gruin: really laggy for me, I might just stay down here hehe
[17:56]  Richardus Raymaker: hi key
[17:56]  Nebadon Izumi: ya might need to turn down draw distance here a bit
[17:59]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Taint
[17:59]  Nebadon Izumi: hows everyone doing?
[17:59]  Mugetsu Storm: lagging
[17:59]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Blue
[17:59]  Mugetsu Storm: hey everyone
[17:59]  BlueWall Slade: Hello
[17:59]  dan banner: hello
[17:59]  Richardus Raymaker: hi blue
[17:59]  Richardus Raymaker: hello snow
[17:59]  BlueWall Slade: Hi
[17:59]  Dutchy Daredevil: just free for a few hours to bee in here
[18:01]  Master Dubrovna: Greetings everyone
[18:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Master
[18:02]  Vivian Klees: hello
[18:02]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Master
[18:02]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[18:02]  Nalates Urriah: Hello
[18:02]  BlueWall Slade: Hi
[18:02]  dan banner: hey master
[18:02]  Mugetsu Storm: hello
[18:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[18:02]  BlueWall Slade: Hi justin
[18:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi master
[18:02]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Justin
[18:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: Hi folks
[18:02]  Nebadon Izumi: so OSG4B is coming up, just a heads up, if you want to contribute to the celebrations you can post details on ?
the forums
[18:02]  dan banner: hey justin
[18:03]  Nebadon Izumi:
[18:03]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Justin
[18:03]  Master Dubrovna: Hi Justin
[18:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: So how's it going?
[18:04]  Nebadon Izumi: so hows OpenSim running for everyone lately?
[18:04]  Nebadon Izumi: things are good Justin
[18:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i am still working on setting up danger grid again
[18:04]  Richardus Raymaker: besides the clouds i think it runs ""normal""
[18:04]  dan banner: how many places are left for exhibits at osg4b now nebadon?
[18:04]  Nebadon Izumi: taking a little longer to rsync stuff than i expected
[18:05]  Nebadon Izumi: id have to check dan banner
[18:05]  SinSeer.Discordia mostly good - couple of unexplained pauses recently after teleporting sometimes
[18:05]  Sarah Kline is Offline
[18:05]  Nalates Urriah: I having lots of tp problems. Some friends in the Devokan area are having problems.
[18:05]  Nebadon Izumi: that might be Inventory SinSeer
[18:06]  dan banner: yeah i havent been having too much trouble either
[18:06]  SinSeer.Discordia hmmmm could be - or maybe throttling settings which i'm trying to look up now heh
[18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: ya things have been working pretty well for me
[18:06]  BlueWall Slade: I noticed pauses when jumping across HG
[18:06]  Vivian Klees: strange hg messages tp'ing to grid sims
[18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: every so often after a teleport my viewer just poofs
[18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: I think its Imprudence 1.4 beta 1
[18:06]  dan banner: using the latest build made a big difference
[18:06]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah, hg is what is giving me the pauses too - but weirdly; i get it in lbsa but not ?
[18:06]  Richardus Raymaker: it only seems that when people send TP the fail sometimes.. map TP works then fine
[18:06]  Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa is always a lot busier than any other region on the grid
[18:06]  Joe Radik has been looking at the type of tables created by default.
[18:07]  SinSeer.Discordia actually could be releated to that - i just startd using impruidence beta1 kast week ?
[18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: that region gets pounded constantly
[18:07]  Richardus Raymaker: Nebadon. that problem with TP poof i hear more. told you it happens for me when my avatra is invisible
[18:07]  Sarah Kline: i crash with that too..went back to 1.3
[18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its beta
[18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:07]  SinSeer.Discordia but it sooooo smooth otherwise lol
[18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: for best performance its probably not the best choice
[18:07]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, could be a viewer issue
[18:07]  SinSeer.Discordia maybe i'd just learn to live with the pauses
[18:07]  Vivian Klees: what's not mentioned alot of sims are not updated
[18:07]  Nebadon Izumi: i think next version will probably improve a bit
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: one thing that changed in Imprudnce 1.4 beta 1
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: is inventory
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: inventory automatically loads now
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: hence the pauses when you teleport
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: or open inventory for 1st time
[18:08]  SinSeer.Discordia oh that could be entirely it then
[18:08]  dan banner: yeah makes sense
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: before it would not load inventory until you triggered a search or something
[18:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: when did Imprudence beta 1 come out?
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: but caching works better in 1.4 beta 1
[18:08]  Nebadon Izumi: week or two ago Andrew
[18:09]  Vivian Klees: 6-22
[18:09]  Sarah Kline is Offline
[18:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, thanks. I should update my copy. I have 1.4.0
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya I am using it
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: and mostly it works well
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: teleporting can be wierd a bit
[18:09]  SinSeer.Discordia other than that though my opensim has been working awesome - only problems is items ?
from other hypergrids - but that only happens on sims who have't updated recently, so what can you do
[18:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: I like the building features of it.
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: it seems to poof a lot on me
[18:09]  Richardus Raymaker: i use it to
[18:09]  SinSeer.Discordia that prim align feature is fricking handy
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: but for me teleporting has never been great
[18:09]  Richardus Raymaker: no seems very stable here
[18:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: SinSeer, indeed!
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: its always hit or miss
[18:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: Imprudence has the best build tools
[18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to use anything else when im building
[18:10]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah, I mostly use it when I'm building so TP issues aren't a big deal.
[18:10]  SinSeer.Discordia like i am willing to suffer the pauses if it's imprudence cause yeah all in all, ?
that's a great viewer
[18:10]  Nalates Urriah: After my sim runs for a week or so a reset shows lots of errors. A restart works just fine.
[18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: what kind of errors?
[18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: a week is a long time
[18:10]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: if you get a couple days of solid use thats impressive
[18:11]  Nalates Urriah: I would have to dig through the log. Take me a couple of minutes.
[18:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: hm... I don't remember there being donuts here for these meetings
[18:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: donuts, where?
[18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i just added that back Andrew
[18:11]  Richardus Raymaker: ony not figured out why some regions trigger sound play in imprudence and otehrs it fail. after its ?
trigger it seems to keep running until relog
[18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i made that agest ago
[18:11]  Joe Radik: I have a question or two about what types of tables to use in MySQL.
[18:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: ooh
[18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i was cleaning my inventory and found the donut bar
[18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:11]  Nebadon Izumi: it was from years ago
[18:12]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, ok. Cool. And two drink machines.
[18:12]  Richardus Raymaker: mine are running 7 days now
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: now we just need a nice espresso maker
[18:12]  BlueWall Slade: heh, from the bit test region - the doughnut shop
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: ya actually that was originally from Wright Plaza
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: in the 1st year
[18:12]  SinSeer.Discordia i noticed i can easily load 20 npcs and make them sing spooky songs from their cloud ?
mouths, that is awesome ,thanks justin
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: eventually it got moved to Zaius Plaza
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: and then it got lost for a while in my invnetory
[18:12]  Nebadon Izumi: after a major cleaning session one day i found it
[18:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: Joe, what choices are you looking at for the tables?
[18:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: I plan to do more work, but I only really have an opportunity at the very end of the week
[18:13]  SinSeer.Discordia hey thats no problem - i'm using the excuse to very slowly learn my way around the ?
code too ;) but singing clouds are awesome to start with
[18:13]  SinSeer.Discordia heck people expect clouds anyways
[18:13]  Joe Radik: I thought I saw some conversation that Innodb tables are slower than Myisam
[18:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya unfortunatly clouds will be a problem, maybe forever
[18:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the next thing will be to fix appearance. But I want to write tests too to simplify the code and ?
stop things breaking again
[18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: its gonna be hard to track fixing all those bugs down
[18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: there is one way i know for sure that causes clouds
[18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: failed teleporting seems to be the #1 cause
[18:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: regarding clouds, I thikn the next thing to do is write some server code that can do more appearance ?
[18:14]  SinSeer.Discordia well i actually noticed for regular users i'm actually getting less cloudy people - ?
just the npcs are like that, but thats expected
[18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt we can greatly improve cloud issue
[18:14]  dan banner: yeah at the least you lose attachments
[18:14]  Nebadon Izumi: but we'll probably always have clouds to some degree
[18:14]  Joe Radik: If I don't disable Innodb, I get a mix of table types created
[18:15]  Nebadon Izumi: the grid is just to chaotic and spread apart
[18:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: joe: which version of opensim are you using?
[18:15]  Nebadon Izumi: alot of regions are on very bad connections
[18:15]  Joe Radik: Fairly close to git master
[18:15]  Nebadon Izumi: we can only fix so much, be impossible to fix the internet as a whole
[18:15]  SinSeer.Discordia quick question - in the code erm somewhere, i could look it up; i made a note... but ?
does anyone know if the setdefaultappearance code (which is currently commented out) works at all?
[18:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the underlying problem is the second life protocol isn't designed to deal with that level of chaos
[18:15]  Sarah Kline: I can log in to LBSA and be a cloud...its easy!
[18:15]  Nebadon Izumi: its not like SL where the entire grid is professionly hosted and living in a fancy data center
[18:15]  Richardus Raymaker: clouds maby not so bad in some degree. as long people can get out of it
[18:16]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: if it's commented out, probably not. The default appearance still currently needs a client to ?
actual bake and send back textures
[18:16]  Nebadon Izumi: that does seem improved recently
[18:16]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah thats what i figured
[18:16]  Nebadon Izumi: not so many people permaclouded
[18:16]  Nebadon Izumi: it still happens but most people it happens to are not aware they can clear their own appearance on the ?
[18:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: joe: some tables work better as myisam. Others are reported to be better as innodb
[18:16]  Richardus Raymaker: but for some reason some shapes / outfits seems to load not/very bad and others work easy.
[18:16]  SinSeer.Discordia that'd be some sweet code to get into the console - the purge appearance one ;)
[18:16]  Sarah Kline: why do we look ok to ourselves but not to others
[18:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: due to different use characteristics. Region tables are now myisam which appears to be a lot quicker in ?
some circumstances
[18:17]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i think for smaller tables like regions myisam is much faster
[18:17]  Nebadon Izumi: on the back end with extremely large tables, innodb has some advantages
[18:17]  Joe Radik: I found that all tables starting with "estate" get created as innodb.
[18:17]  Joe Radik: Everything else as Myisam.
[18:18]  Joe Radik: I should just let Opensim decide?
[18:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: possibly they should be myisam as well. But since they're not acessed a lot it doesn't make much ?
difference what storage engine they use
[18:18]  BlueWall Slade: we don't user foreign keys or anything
[18:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: joe: that would be my recommendation
[18:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i think the defaults opensim provide currently are probably best
[18:19]  Nebadon Izumi: the tables that are innodb are virtually empty most of the time
[18:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: Until you have a large asset table, it probably doesn't matter a whole lot which engine is used.
[18:19]  Nebadon Izumi: unless your running 100's of regions in 1 simulator
[18:19]  Nebadon Izumi: which is just a bad idea
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: ya probably not Andrew
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: though on the simulator side
[18:20]  Andrew Hellershanks: sure, 100's of empty regions in 1 sim otherwise that is just asking for big trouble
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: using Innodb seems to be a bad idea for the prims tables
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: loading an oar can literally take 1000 times longer
[18:20]  Andrew Hellershanks: Really? Hm...
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: not quite sure why exactly
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: but yes
[18:20]  Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza takes about 9 hours to load on inndob
[18:21]  Nebadon Izumi: takes like 15 minutes with myisam
[18:21]  BlueWall Slade: lol, that's nuts
[18:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: I expect innodb's transactional overheads make it take a lot longer
[18:21]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:21]  SinSeer.Discordia there is a good chance i would gnaw my own leg off trying to escape a 9 hour bootup
[18:21]  Andrew Hellershanks: I think I'm using innodb on the prims tables
[18:21]  Nebadon Izumi: anytime datastore occurs
[18:21]  dan banner: ow
[18:21]  Nebadon Izumi: its extremely slow with inndob
[18:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: the engine was only switched fairly recently
[18:22]  Nebadon Izumi: if your on master git it should have changed it to myisam for you
[18:22]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm still on .7.0.2 and haven't moved to 0.7.1-dev yet
[18:22]  Nebadon Izumi: well you can alter the table yourself
[18:22]  Nebadon Izumi: or just wait
[18:22]  Nebadon Izumi: opensim really doesnt care what the table is
[18:22]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
[18:22]  Richardus Raymaker: you mean 0.7.2dev?
[18:23]  Andrew Hellershanks: Has 0.7.2 been released?
[18:23]  dan banner: no
[18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: oddly enough though the reverse is opposite on the OSgrid Back end Robust databases
[18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: we were running MyISAM
[18:23]  Andrew Hellershanks: Right. so I do mean 0.7.1 release with post release fixes
[18:23]  Nebadon Izumi: and i couldnt run a query without crashing the grid
[18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: recently we switched everything to innodb and now i can do pretty heavy query without any impact to the grid
[18:24]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: but those tables have literally millions of rows
[18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: 12+ million rows on some
[18:24]  Andrew Hellershanks: I only have that situation with my asset table
[18:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, innodb does row locking while myisam only does table locking
[18:24]  Andrew Hellershanks: Millions of rows that is.
[18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: our asset db has 28 million rows
[18:24]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[18:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: that makes a big difference for grid services, so they are better off with innodb
[18:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: but region tables seem better as myisam
[18:25]  Nebadon Izumi: i ran some recent stats on osgrid assets
[18:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: insertion overheads are certainly much lower
[18:25]  Nebadon Izumi: we have 28 million or so assets in the database
[18:25]  Nebadon Izumi: and like 15 million actual unique assets on the hard drive
[18:25]  Richardus Raymaker: i think network delay is more problem then database delay
[18:25]  Nebadon Izumi: we are getting like 50% compression with dupe checking
[18:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: sras still working well?
[18:26]  Andrew Hellershanks: It is amazing to see how many dupe assets you can have in a busy grid
[18:26]  BlueWall Slade: we could probably make better use of things like stored procedures and binding variables to fields - making ?
multiple insertions per call
[18:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya seems to be working good Justin
[18:26]  dan banner: lots of dupes im sure
[18:26]  Dahlia Trimble: hi
[18:26]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Dahlia
[18:26]  BlueWall Slade: Hello Dahlia
[18:26]  dan banner: hi
[18:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think there is huge scope for efficiencies. Though that starts to get messy as db adaptors start ?
to vary significantly
[18:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello dahlia
[18:26]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[18:26]  Outback Abbot: Hello everyone :)
[18:26]  Sarah Kline: hi dahlia
[18:27]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Dahliaa
[18:27]  Nebadon Izumi: hello Outback
[18:27]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi Out
[18:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello outback
[18:27]  Richardus Raymaker: oh oar's dont copy parcel owners right ?
[18:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: lot more people here today than last week!
[18:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: Using stored procedures, etc. can get awkward when you have to deal with different database systems.
[18:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: they do
[18:27]  Joe Radik had an unplanned day off work.
[18:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: thought the owner has to be a valid uuid on the target grid
[18:28]  Richardus Raymaker: i copied a region inside osgrid to a new uuid and it lost parcel owner
[18:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: to a new region, you mean?
[18:29]  Richardus Raymaker: yes
[18:29]  Richardus Raymaker: a test region
[18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: it probably only survives if you keep it in the same grid
[18:29]  Richardus Raymaker: its in osgrid
[18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: being that users UUID wont exit on another grid
[18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ah
[18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: it should not loose ownership
[18:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that may just be a bug
[18:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think ive seen that occur
[18:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:30]  Richardus Raymaker: i think its a bug to'
[18:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim issues?
[18:32]  SinSeer.Discordia hmmmmmmmmmm
[18:32]  BlueWall Slade: the Overte CLA - when will that be ready?
[18:32]  SinSeer.Discordia actually it's been suprisingly stable and good to me
[18:33]  Douglas Maxwell: is this the right venue to ask a configuration question?
[18:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: The only OS issue I have is that I haven't had time to work on anything related to OS for a while.
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:30]  Richardus Raymaker: i think its a bug to'
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: any other opensim issues?
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia hmmmmmmmmmm
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:32]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.7.2 Dev          759e855: 2011-07-01 21:47:30 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:32]  BlueWall Slade: the Overte CLA - when will that be ready?
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:32]  SinSeer.Discordia actually it's been suprisingly stable and good to me
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:33]  Douglas Maxwell: is this the right venue to ask a configuration question?
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:33]  Andrew Hellershanks: The only OS issue I have is that I haven't had time to work on anything related to ?
OS for a while.
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  dan banner is Online
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Richardus Raymaker is Online
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry nebadon
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: hey no worries
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it was wierd
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: it kept restarting
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: like someone kept crashing it out
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, that was my fault
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: I was trying to capture the initial crash text
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ah did you get it?
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:38]  Nebadon Izumi: i can get it if you want
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: please
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: and I hit the wrong shortcut on my console, which sent ctrl-c instead
[18:41]  [2011/07/05 10:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: not yet
[18:41]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[18:41]  dan banner is Online
[18:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: same crash
[18:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: did you capture it?
[18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[18:42]  Nebadon Izumi: same crash
[18:43]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, wat doe jij hier ruben ?
[18:43]  Ruben Haan: hoi
[18:43]  Richardus Raymaker: hoi.
[18:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi ruben
[18:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: do you have a pastebin?
[18:43]  Nebadon Izumi:
[18:43]  Ruben Haan: ff boven kijken
[18:43]  Richardus Raymaker: heb je IM gehad ruben ?
[18:44]  Ruben Haan: nee
[18:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's kind of bad because it just appears to be within mono
[18:44]  dan banner: did i rez?
[18:44]  Nebadon Izumi: i see you dan
[18:44]  dan banner: k
[18:44]  Richardus Raymaker: your fine dan
[18:45]  Nebadon Izumi: so ya that sucked
[18:45]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[18:45]  Nebadon Izumi: twice in a row it happend too
[18:45]  Nebadon Izumi: so i dunno
[18:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes - not good
[18:46]  Dutchy Daredevil: back i hope ??
[18:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm going to take a brief look at the relevant piece of mono src once I have it, though I'm not sure it ?
will reveal much
[18:46]  Nebadon Izumi: ok
[18:46]  Nebadon Izumi: it looks like it got a NaN or something
[18:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: negative number in BlockCoppy
[18:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: BlockCopy
[18:47]  SinSeer.Discordia i didn't do it
[18:47]  SinSeer.Discordia i think
[18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: i have seen that crash before too
[18:47]  Richardus Raymaker: NaN.. i think i saw that last time to... but then my login of database where wrong
[18:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: it looks like mono processing an http reply though - not even touching opensim code directly
[18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: wierd it happend twice
[18:47]  Nebadon Izumi: wonder what the heck triggered that
[18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: atleast Wright Plaza restarts fast now
[18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: man, why on earth isn't mono writte in java :)
[18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: only takes about 2 minutes
[18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: er, opensim written in java, I mean
[18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[18:48]  Ruben Haan: heh
[18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: something tells me that wouldnt make much difference
[18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: the jvm and sdk are far more mature
[18:48]  Nebadon Izumi: doesnt mean opensim would be though
[18:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but we wouldn't tend to suffer bugs in the sdk itself, which is what this looks like
[18:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i really dont know of anything as heavy as OpenSim written in java that runs well
[18:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's stacks of enterprise stuff in java
[18:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: huge amounts
[18:49]  Nebadon Izumi: as heavy as opensim though?
[18:49]  Nebadon Izumi: i always try to avoid java stuff myself
[18:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: much heavier
[18:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: anyway, it's all academic
[18:50]  Richardus Raymaker: Java. prett headace stuff to.
[18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: well hopefully mono improves a bit soon
[18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: im more prone to blame opensim though
[18:51]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:51]  Richardus Raymaker: and mono is already good now
[18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: sending stuff to mono it doesnt like
[18:52]  Ruben Haan: what was the name of that javabased simulator
[18:52]  dan banner: mono is getting better all the time
[18:52]  Ruben Haan: open wonderland?
[18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: open wonderland is absolutely wretched
[18:52]  dan banner: thats java
[18:52]  Ruben Haan: i hear nothing about it annymore
[18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: it baffles me that anyone finds it suitable
[18:52]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[18:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: seems to be popular with education people
[18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i just can not imagine why
[18:53]  Justin Clark-Casey: and it has features that opensim doesn't have - much better voice, for example
[18:53]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i guess i found it to be just awful
[18:54]  Justin Clark-Casey smiles
[18:54]  Nebadon Izumi: and i have no doubt that there are heavy java apps
[18:54]  Nebadon Izumi: but i imagine most of them cost millions of dollars to develop
[18:55]  Nebadon Izumi: if opensimulator had huge budget we would be a lot further along
[18:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but they rest on a jvm and sdk that are banged about constantly
[18:55]  SinSeer.Discordia budget always helps
[18:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: that's the thing - mono doesn't get that kind of workout
[18:55]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i suppose
[18:55]  SinSeer.Discordia you guys got some offeres of donations when you announced the foundation right? ?
hopefully some of those will help too ;)
[18:55]  Nebadon Izumi: its progressing though
[18:55]  Ruben Haan: if i marry an old miljonair i will donate some miljons
[18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: mono 3.0 will probably be a lot more advanced
[18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: java has a good 10 years on mono
[18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe more
[18:56]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes. need to sort things out
[18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: mono 2.12 is supposed to have some major fixes
[18:56]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe we'll see some improvements when it hits
[18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully soon
[18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: i am running 2.11 on my personal dev box
[18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: seems to be holding up
[18:57]  Nebadon Izumi: i should update it again
[18:58]  Nebadon Izumi: i have a feeling though that the HTTP server opensim uses
[18:58]  Nebadon Izumi: is very very veeeeery buggy
[18:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: the stack trace is within mono code
[18:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: but yeah, it's not impossible that it's a c# webserver issue
[18:58]  Nebadon Izumi: ya but couldnt it just be receving bad data
[18:58]  Nebadon Izumi: and not handling it well?
[18:58]  Justin Clark-Casey: you mean mono or the webserver? Certainly something is handling it badly
[18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: ya any of it i guess
[18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: i know diva has not had good things to say about our HTTP server
[18:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: mm
[18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: probably something were gonna have to deal with at some point
[18:59]  Nebadon Izumi: if i recall too the one we use is no longer maintainted
[19:00]  Nebadon Izumi: maintained*
[19:00]  Nebadon Izumi: its probably pretty old too at this point
[19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: doh he crashed
[19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[19:01]  SinSeer.Discordia doh
[19:01]  Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: anyway, anything else anyone wanted to bring up?
[19:01]  Nebadon Izumi: shame dougla didnt come back
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: douglas*
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: welcome back Justin
[19:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: aargh, my viewer is crashing as well, unusually
[19:02]  Nalates Urriah: How are we doing with Mesh? Has LL gotten the format to where it can be used?
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: Nalates, sorta
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: physics is screwed up
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: even in SL
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i dunno wtf LL is doing
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: Mesh seems very broken even on the LL beta grid
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: did last week anyway
[19:02]  Nebadon Izumi: i was doing some testing on Friday, and its really screwed on their grid as well
[19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i am totally unable to get anything to make physics mesh
[19:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: aren't they supposed to be launching very soon?
[19:03]  Nalates Urriah: I've had probs with mesh here and on SL.
[19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: ya who Knows Justin
[19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i expect disaterous launch
[19:03]  Nalates Urriah: They said August. I think they are sweating it now.
[19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: its sooo far from ready
[19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: but knowing them, they will still go forward
[19:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: maybe they'll just delay
[19:03]  Nebadon Izumi: and piss off 90% of the grid
[19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it
[19:04]  Richardus Raymaker: if its a disaster.. are we ready here for a new flood ?
[19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be highly unusual for them to do that
[19:04]  Nalates Urriah: I'm betting they roll some time in August but only enable it on the RC's
[19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: heh honestly I dont expect many more floods from SL
[19:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: if it's a disaster there it probably won't be much better here :)
[19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: I think most people will just move on to something else
[19:04]  Richardus Raymaker: Nalates, did the say wich year ?
[19:04]  Nebadon Izumi: its not any better here Justin
[19:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: there isn't something else atm
[19:04]  SinSeer.Discordia i tihnk maybe one more flood will happen once word of the hypergrid reachs regular ?
people - it's just that awesome
[19:05]  Nalates Urriah: :) No but they did mean this one. After all SLCC is coming up
[19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: i just mean something else completely
[19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: heh
[19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: xbox maybe?
[19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[19:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: if they wanted to be gaming they would already be doing that
[19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well LL has not done anything to address the V2 haters
[19:05]  Nebadon Izumi: then they are gonna pile a bad Mesh launch on top of that
[19:05]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know - it seems to me that most ppl are coming round to v2
[19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: eventually forcing everyone to V2
[19:06]  Nalates Urriah: THe Lindens keep hinting something great is in the works. But, no leaks yet.
[19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: its not gonna go well i expect
[19:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm not that well connected to what's on the street
[19:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: any guesses?
[19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: they have said on many occasions that once Mesh goes live v1 support will soon die there after
[19:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think mesh effectively kills v1 - nobody will want to go to a regio nwhere they can't see the content
[19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[19:06]  Nalates Urriah: I thinik V2 is more accepted than most realize.
[19:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: unless there's some massive commitment not to use meshes :)
[19:06]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has hinted at potentially even blocking it at some point
[19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: it wont be immediate
[19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: but at some point they likely will block it
[19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: so we'll see
[19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem with people flooding here from SL
[19:07]  Nebadon Izumi: is we are not SL
[19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: we are very far from any kind of SL replacement with the market places and social stuff
[19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: etc..
[19:08]  Richardus Raymaker: keep it a very slow flood. some people expect to much here.
[19:08]  Nalates Urriah: I think they will watch viewer stats. When few people are using it they'll. Block. Several Lindens have said ?
LL will NOT block just let feature creep push them out.
[19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its hard to say
[19:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: yeah
[19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: I dont think LL even knows what they are doing 1/2 the time
[19:08]  Nebadon Izumi: until the last second
[19:09]  dan banner is Online
[19:09]  Richardus Raymaker: possible the people that can only run V1 viewers and cant get new pc go find something else.
[19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: all i can say for sure, is mesh is currently pretty broken
[19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: from my expereince
[19:09]  Nalates Urriah: I think they are too big for most to know what is going on. Each group seems to have their little area and ?
now what is happening there.
[19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: Mesh actually works better in OpenSim
[19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: if you can beleive that
[19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: i have had waay more trouble on the LL grid
[19:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's not a huge company though - and now they're all in one location
[19:09]  Nebadon Izumi: ya it never was really a huge company
[19:10]  Nebadon Izumi: at peak it was what 300-400 employees
[19:10]  Nebadon Izumi: in fortune 500 land thats microscopic
[19:10]  Richardus Raymaker: its strange, LL have money. everything is on know hardware and the know how everything is setup. and ?
still the do worser then opensim
[19:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: I really don't think they do worse
[19:10]  Nalates Urriah: Let me say it this way... They don't communicate well among staff
[19:10]  Nebadon Izumi: well they have many different problems than we do
[19:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[19:11]  Richardus Raymaker: ok, maby i cant descripe it right. but thats best that came up
[19:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: I thought maybe rodvik would change that? He seems a very switched on guy
[19:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: :)
[19:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, I just appreciate the issues that LL have trying to maintain a very large grid and work out a way ?
to go forward
[19:11]  Nebadon Izumi: personally I think Rodvik is no more effective than anyone prior to him
[19:11]  Nalates Urriah: I expect to find out what he is changing at the SLCC announcments.
[19:11]  Nebadon Izumi: i think LL's problem is the nontechnical investors
[19:12]  Nebadon Izumi: who tend to drive things there
[19:12]  Nalates Urriah: You could be right Neb
[19:12]  Richardus Raymaker: whats SLCC ? especially the CC
[19:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: yeah, I imagine something should come out at slcc
[19:12]  Nebadon Izumi: SLCC is a RL convention for SL users
[19:12]  Nalates Urriah: Second Life Community Conferance, I think
[19:12]  Richardus Raymaker: ok
[19:13]  Nalates Urriah: Search Google for SLCC 2011
[19:13]  Nebadon Izumi: we'll see, LL is teetering on the edge right now
[19:13]  Nebadon Izumi: things could fall pretty much in any direction
[19:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: society of local council clerks
[19:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: the edge?
[19:13]  Nebadon Izumi: ya of holding their community together
[19:14]  Nebadon Izumi: technical progress vs pissing everyone off
[19:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: I didn't think sl was every comprised of a single community
[19:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: ever
[19:14]  Nebadon Izumi: oh its not
[19:14]  Nebadon Izumi: but
[19:14]  Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem to be making anyone happy lately
[19:14]  Mugetsu Storm: sorry to interrupt but are you saying SL is crumbling?
[19:14]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has been crumbling
[19:14]  Nebadon Izumi: for quite some time
[19:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don't say in touch with what's happening enough in ll to tell
[19:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: sounds rather pessimistic to me :)
[19:14]  Nalates Urriah: They have a huge amount of daily signups. Plus they are now advertising and bringing in new marketing people. ?
So, they aren't too worried about the existing users.
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its hard to say, there are many factors
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: economy being #1
[19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: Region counts are steady but not dropping - and they are profitable
[19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: you do have to attract the new users
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: but LL doesnt seem to be making the best of a bad situation
[19:15]  Mugetsu Storm: yeah thats true
[19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: you cna't just cater to your base
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: they seem to be constantly making things worse for their user base
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: i read a good article about how LL is chasing LL
[19:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: in wht way?
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: at the expense of their own user base
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a good article showing that all the recent development going on at LL
[19:15]  Nebadon Izumi: is to attract the facebook crowd
[19:16]  Nebadon Izumi: while pushing their current user base out
[19:16]  Nebadon Izumi: and the best part is
[19:16]  Mugetsu Storm: i heard something about that to
[19:16]  Nebadon Izumi: after all that work LL did to start integrating for Facebook
[19:16]  Nebadon Izumi: facebook goes and disables 1000's of Second Life user accounts
[19:16]  Nebadon Izumi: pretty much spitting in LL's face
[19:16]  dan banner: heh
[19:16]  Nalates Urriah: I wouldn't beleive that. Facebook has done some stupid stuff. Google+ may push them out and we may see LL do ?
mroe with Google+.
[19:17]  Richardus Raymaker: i hear facebook stuff to, yuch
[19:17]  Nebadon Izumi: let me see if i can find that article
[19:17]  Nebadon Izumi: its pretty telling at the mentality at LL
[19:17]  Nebadon Izumi:
[19:17]  Nebadon Izumi: good article i thought
[19:18]  Nebadon Izumi: problem with LL going after facebook is facebook requires you to use your real identity
[19:18]  Nebadon Izumi: and the majority of SL users dont want to reveal their RL identity
[19:19]  Nebadon Izumi: if FB finds out your account info is fake, they disable your account
[19:19]  Outback Abbot: I have a question friends

It would support OSGrid As a mass registration of users in the case of: a closure announced by SL?
[19:19]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be monumentally bad Outback
[19:19]  Richardus Raymaker: since when is the RL identty required ? i made acount and froze it. boring.. but cant remeber and data. ?
or forget
[19:19]  Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid might not actually survive that honestly
[19:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we have very limited resources
[19:19]  Nebadon Izumi: we could never accomidate the kind of load SL generates
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: you need to remember LL on average has around 50,000 users loggged in
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: they have millions of dollars in infrastructure
[19:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: I highly doubt sl would ever just close anyway
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: right
[19:20]  dan banner: 40k bots
[19:20]  Richardus Raymaker: only escape is small HyperGrid then
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: i dont think SL is that dire
[19:20]  Justin Clark-Casey: at the very worst it would just tail off very slowly, like all the other long lived mmorpgs out there
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: but i also dont think LL is doing enough to keep their hard core user base happy
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: LL is quite small
[19:20]  Nebadon Izumi: when compared to say facebook
[19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: or evey MySpace
[19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: Facebook logs in 50,000 users every minute
[19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: maybe more
[19:21]  Outback Abbot: I understand
[19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: there is still quite a lot of potential at LL
[19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: for me its more about what LL is morphing into
[19:21]  dan banner: osgrid would break before 1000 i think
[19:21]  Nebadon Izumi: than me worried about it failing
[19:22]  Richardus Raymaker: we saw already weird things around 200
[19:22]  Nebadon Izumi: ya that was before we upgraded our hardware too
[19:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: however, until that happens there's no incentive to improve the backend systems
[19:22]  Nebadon Izumi: but yes, OpenSim in general has trouble around a few 100 users
[19:22]  Nebadon Izumi: well i think its more than just back end system software too justin
[19:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: 200?
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has literaly 100's of servers on their back end, not talking about simulators
[19:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: where do you think the problem lies when you get up to those numbers? Inventory?
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: but the back end robust like services
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has literally 150+ asset servers
[19:23]  Richardus Raymaker: bandwidth is one
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: that cost around 125,000$ USD a pop
[19:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: ultimately, this is the reason for having something more like the hypergrid, to spread the load
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: LL has a huge amount of money tied up in infrastructure
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: millions
[19:23]  Nebadon Izumi: 10's of millions
[19:24]  Vivian Klees: Neb anymore testing with null?
[19:24]  Nebadon Izumi: null?
[19:24]  Vivian Klees: nulldb
[19:24]  dan banner: null storage
[19:24]  Nebadon Izumi: oh
[19:24]  Richardus Raymaker: problem with HG 4096
[19:24]  Nebadon Izumi: not really no
[19:24]  Nebadon Izumi: the method i came up with is very hackish
[19:24]  Nebadon Izumi: and honestly after discovering that myisam yeilded so much better performance
[19:25]  Nebadon Izumi: i sorta moved on to other things
[19:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: presumably you still have trouble with speedbuilds, though?
[19:25]  Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say, i think things have actually been pretty good at the last few speedbuilds
[19:25]  Nebadon Izumi: of course opensim still gets splodey if you do to much at once
[19:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: I see you're not advertising events on the website, currently
[19:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that might be more to do with core code
[19:25]  Nebadon Izumi: and really we never gave the null database testing multiple builder testing
[19:26]  Nebadon Izumi: the null db stuff i did was not perfect by any means
[19:26]  Mugetsu Storm: nebadon: whats a speed build?
[19:26]  Nebadon Izumi: speedbuild is contest thing we do
[19:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: still, it's worth bearing in mind. After all linden save out simulator states by the sound of it rather ?
than updating a database
[19:26]  Nebadon Izumi: you get 1 hour to build a topic of our choosing
[19:26]  Nebadon Izumi: then everyone votes at the end
[19:26]  Nebadon Izumi: ya justin
[19:26]  Nebadon Izumi: thing is though LL sims are very hard to actually crash
[19:26]  Mugetsu Storm: so i building contest
[19:27]  dan banner: yes
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: its not so hard to degrade performance
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: but getting a hard crash in LL is almost impossible
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: unlike opensim
[19:27]  SinSeer.Discordia wait i thought 4096 was also a viewer thing - you trying to fix it in server??
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: so unless your writing out states almost every second
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: you run the risk of loosing big swaths of work
[19:27]  Richardus Raymaker: 4096 is viewer thing with HG
[19:27]  Richardus Raymaker: and teleports
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: my method rwote out states every 2 minutes
[19:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, there is that issue. thogh the same is true for the db approach
[19:27]  Nebadon Izumi: 2 minutes can be an eternity when your building fast
[19:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: though admittedly the db approach only saves parts
[19:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[19:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: sinseer: it is a viewer issue
[19:28]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah thats what i thought
[19:28]  Mugetsu Storm: i build slowly and it always feels like an eternity
[19:28]  Nebadon Izumi: when i was doing my testing there was several times the sim crashed
[19:28]  Nebadon Izumi: and restarted and a bunch of stuff was missing
[19:28]  Nebadon Izumi: so it was far from perfect in the saving regards, but it did show that when it did work
[19:28]  SinSeer.Discordia that 4096 is quite the damper. we should all move sims to lower. (ducks)
[19:29]  dan banner: alot can be lost in 2 minutes
[19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: it was 1000's of times more efficient
[19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its sorta like ramdisk vs magnetic disc
[19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: risk vs reward
[19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[19:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: persisting in the db always carries a high overhead
[19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[19:29]  Nebadon Izumi: switching to myisam though made a big big difference
[19:30]  Nebadon Izumi: like i said it went from 9 hour datastore loading WP oar to 15 minutes
[19:30]  Nebadon Izumi: almost unbelievable improvement
[19:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: and you switched script DLLs to not get deleted here as well
[19:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: ?
[19:30]  Nebadon Izumi: correct
[19:30]  Nebadon Izumi: all the plazas are now
[19:30]  Richardus Raymaker: SInSeer, if you know a save way to ove osgrid. without war....
[19:30]  Nebadon Izumi: sim load time went from 10 minutes to 2 minutes
[19:30]  SinSeer.Discordia richardus lol no i so don't i know it won't happen
[19:30]  Nebadon Izumi: i also updated the updater scripts to purge the dll's every update
[19:31]  Nebadon Izumi: so everytime we update we get 1 nasty startup
[19:31]  Nebadon Izumi: which is fine
[19:31]  SinSeer.Discordia just seems like we could all agree to solve the problem but it'd be like a ?
cataclysm, sooooo much work
[19:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ya moving OSgrid would be difficult
[19:31]  Nebadon Izumi: and honestly moving to me is pretty much giving up on something i know can be fixed
[19:31]  SinSeer.Discordia yah and it'd really have to be ever grid doing it to make the problem entirely go ?
[19:32]  Nebadon Izumi: i know as soon as we moved the grid
[19:32]  Nebadon Izumi: someone would fix the problem
[19:32]  Nebadon Izumi: then it would have all been for nothing
[19:32]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe, like with everything
[19:32]  SinSeer.Discordia and it is a LOT of sims to move here ouch
[19:32]  Richardus Raymaker: whats the sim cpount now ?
[19:32]  Nebadon Izumi: ya with virtually no way to coordinate it
[19:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: then again, people have looked to fix it in the viewer and failed
[19:32]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah i was reading bout that justin :(
[19:32]  Vivian Klees: those with mega's ouch
[19:32]  dan banner: 6300 or so rich
[19:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: the graphics problem reminds me of the kind of effect you seee when you go miles up in the air
[19:33]  dan banner: 6505
[19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well honestly id say 75% of viewer devs are mostly concerned with SL
[19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: they have no reason to want to fix it
[19:33]  SinSeer.Discordia yah
[19:33]  SinSeer.Discordia there is that
[19:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: the devs that are concerned with OpenSim are so overwhelmed with other stuff they just have not made it a ?
[19:33]  Richardus Raymaker: right now the need to get up to sl2
[19:33]  Nebadon Izumi: ya and unfortunatly the problem is actually worse in V2 from my undersatnding
[19:34]  Nebadon Izumi: the map issue anyway
[19:34]  Nebadon Izumi: not the teleporting issue
[19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: oh ?
[19:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: 2048 apparantly
[19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: ok
[19:34]  SinSeer.Discordia yeah - half of 4096
[19:34]  dan banner: SL doesnt need more than their 8 million locations since they dont use any type of HG
[19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: oh
[19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: that sounds a disaster for osgrid
[19:34]  Nebadon Izumi: right SL is like 28,000 to 30,000 simulators in total
[19:34]  Nebadon Izumi: its less than 1% of what they coould actually handle
[19:34]  dan banner: out of 8 million possible locations
[19:34]  Richardus Raymaker: means pff. 9000-11000 .. auww
[19:34]  Outback Abbot: I honestly believe that Opensim viewer should have a new code itself to 100% without any code LL
[19:35]  Sarah Kline is Online
[19:35]  Nebadon Izumi: thats a lot easier said that done Outback
[19:35]  dan banner: yeah start coding
[19:35]  Nebadon Izumi: making a viewer is monumentally harder compared to server side stuff
[19:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe we should have a new Sistine Chapel in my garden
[19:35]  Dream Scientist: hello people
[19:35]  Nebadon Izumi: considering the solution needs to be cross platform
[19:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: hello dream
[19:35]  Nebadon Izumi: and really again, LL has spent millions developing their viewer
[19:35]  Nebadon Izumi: between licesnsing and developer time
[19:36]  Nebadon Izumi: its a huge amount of money invested in the LL viewer to get it as far as they did as fast as they did
[19:36]  Nebadon Izumi: making a similar viewer with volunteers is very hard work
[19:36]  Nalates Urriah gave you Errors from Nalates.
[19:36]  Justin Clark-Casey: the best choice if one wanted to do that would probably be to try and adapt the current realxtend viewer
[19:36]  Outback Abbot: I understand that it is easy to say, but that does not deny that OpenSim is limiting developers to viewers so ?
they can not provide any code previously used in display
[19:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ya possibly
[19:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ive not had much luck with the Rex stuff
[19:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ive tried testing it, its so difficult to use
[19:37]  Nebadon Izumi: easy is not been a factor with them it seems
[19:37]  Nalates Urriah: I ran into the same thing, Neb. A PITA to setup and use.
[19:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, usability is a tough problem
[19:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[19:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: specially when you don't have tens of thousnads of people actually using it
[19:37]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully that improves
[19:38]  Nebadon Izumi: it comes back to just a few volunteers again though
[19:38]  Outback Abbot: I apologize for my bad use of English
[19:38]  Nebadon Izumi: well Outback the viewer policy is changing
[19:38]  Nebadon Izumi: but i can almost gaurantee we wont see alot of viewer devs jumping on opensim development
[19:38]  Nalates Urriah: When we will see the change take effect for programmers?
[19:38]  Nebadon Izumi: there are other projects that are forks of opensimulator
[19:39]  Nebadon Izumi: that do not have viewer dev limitations in their policy
[19:39]  Nebadon Izumi: and they have literally attracted zero viewer devs
[19:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: nalates: soon, but the agreement stuff needs to be worked through in the back first
[19:39]  Nebadon Izumi: but what will be nice is that the current opensim devs can start looking at the viewer code
[19:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I don't think aurora has a high enough profile at this point
[19:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya well it wasnt just Aurora if you recall
[19:39]  Nebadon Izumi: there was that openmetaverse project too
[19:39]  Nebadon Izumi: that went no where
[19:40]  Dream Scientist: may i ask what this meeting is about?
[19:40]  Nebadon Izumi: i cant recall the name now
[19:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: I don't know if that was meant to be a fork or not
[19:40]  Dream Scientist: i dont really get it hehe
[19:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: dream: nominally it's opensim/osdev development
[19:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: er, osgrid
[19:40]  Nebadon Izumi: This is developer office hours Dream
[19:40]  Nebadon Izumi: for OpenSimulator
[19:40]  Dream Scientist: ah ok
[19:40]  Key Gruin is Online
[19:40]  Dream Scientist: im not a developer, but come to hang out a bit and listen then
[19:40]  Nalates Urriah: No formal agenda so lots of stuff gets talked about
[19:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ya i do hope we get a few Viewer devs interested for sure
[19:41]  Nebadon Izumi: dont get me wrong i think its the right move
[19:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[19:41]  Nebadon Izumi: its just off the top of my head i dont know any who i think will just jump right in either
[19:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: we just have to get it done now
[19:41]  Nebadon Izumi: time will tell
[19:41]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[19:41]  SinSeer.Discordia well it seems a lot of devs wanna just do their own thing - so we end up with lots ?
of side projects off opensim that have 1 programmer each
[19:41]  SinSeer.Discordia sighs
[19:41]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem is the viewer devs are as overwhelmed with viewer dev as opensim devs are with opensim
[19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: their time is already extremely limited
[19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: especailly with the urgency to get on V2 coming up
[19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: so many things going on
[19:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go, way over time here :)
[19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: hopefully though what we can attraact are people not currently working on the viewer
[19:42]  Nebadon Izumi: but people who are very familliar with it
[19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: ok Justin, thanks for coming
[19:43]  Richardus Raymaker: bye jcc
[19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: Bye everyone
[19:43]  SinSeer.Discordia thanks justin, have a good one!
[19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: you still want to go over some of the OSgrid stuff today?
[19:43]  dan banner: later justin
[19:43]  Outback Abbot: bye Justin
[19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: maybe later - I'm behind schedule
[19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'll ping you on irc
[19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: kk give a shout
[19:43]  Nebadon Izumi: talk soon
[19:43]  Justin Clark-Casey waves
[19:44]  Nebadon Izumi: well good meeting, ran a little long today
[19:44]  Nebadon Izumi: but if anyone has anything they want to talk about please feel free to speak up
[19:44]  SinSeer.Discordia that's okay ;) but i do have to get going myself
[19:44]  Key Gruin: just in time for the end lol
[19:44]  Nebadon Izumi: heehe hey there Key
[19:44]  Key Gruin: Hi Neb hi everyone
[19:44]  Vivian Klees: oh no poor Key
[19:45]  dan banner: dang
[19:45]  Nebadon Izumi: thats ok we mostly spoke a lot about LL today
[19:45]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[19:45]  Outback Abbot: hi Key
[19:45]  Key Gruin: couldnt log in
[19:45]  dan banner: i should have logged the first half before the crash
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