Chat log from the meeting on 2011-03-29

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[11:01]  Eryn Galen is Online
[11:01]  Dutchy Daredevil is Online
[11:02]  Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone :)
[11:02]  Penny Lane: Hi Rich, how goes?
[11:02]  Sarah Kline: hi justin
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: wb neb
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey folks, hey sarah
[11:02]  Jake Long: fine here
[11:02]  Penny Lane: Hi Neb, Justin
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:02]  Qandy Saw: hello Nebadon
[11:02]  Richardus Raymaker: you made it :))
[11:02]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey penny. Havne't seen you for a long time
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: hi otaku
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, You mentioned on IRC about using sculpty terrain. Is that because you get better results doing it that way than uploading standard terrain files?
[11:03]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hey
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: right Andrew
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: i can get 24000x24000pixel terrain in a 3x3 mega
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: neb stil have a sim with it, close to zuais p[laza
[11:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, ok. Texturing would be easier to get the way you want as well.
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: zauis
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: about 8000 pixels per region
[11:03]  Nebadon Izumi: vs 256 pixels standard
[11:04]  Richardus Raymaker: textureing sculpts. still hard
[11:04]  Jake Long: true
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: literally like 32x more quality
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:04]  Andrew Hellershanks: that's quite a difference but the math didn't seem right when you said only 64 sculpties as doesn't seem enough.
[11:04]  Penny Lane: A few weeks absence, yeah. Kind of discouraged. Too many alleged clueful techies at the IETF don't want interop between virtual worlds. Go figure.
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its a bit more difficult, but personally i think its worth it
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey: nice, no cloud avatars today
[11:04]  Jake Long: i dont have exp with sculpting ^^""
[11:04]  Justin Clark-Casey opens the e-mail folder where all the vwrap messages go :)
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: Penny well, in terms of the IETF, i think alot of the techi devs would like to see some working examples, before standardizing on 1 format
[11:05]  Andrew Hellershanks: I've got some but it can still be tricky to get Blender to do the sculpty map.
[11:05]  BlueWall Slade: hehe
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ya Andrew, Terrain in general is not so easy
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: ive been experimenting with Mesh terrain too
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: i am finding it very difficult to almost impossible
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: to make a quality mesh terrain
[11:06]  Penny Lane: Neb: Oh we're nowhere near to single formats. It's the PRINCIPLE of interop between VWs that a few are rejecting.
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: with the LL Mesh beta viewer
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: ah ya
[11:06]  Andrew Hellershanks: Isn't the resolution of a sculpty map only 64x64?
[11:06]  OtakuMegane Desu: Doing terrain would need pretty good tools
[11:06]  Penny Lane: People have such blinkered vision.
[11:06]  Nebadon Izumi: it can be higher, but the viewer does downsize it yes Andrew
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: no 256x256 andrew
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: its more about the surface textures though
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: no repeats etc..
[11:07]  Nebadon Izumi: you can get a much higher looking terrain
[11:07]  Richardus Raymaker: btw last time i saw a texture in sl, and my viewer sayed it where 2300x2300 pixels ?? viewer bug ?
[11:07]  Penny Lane: Where is Charles these days? He was always a big supporter of the concept of VWs interoperating.
[11:07]  Jake Long: thats more then my screen size ^^
[11:07]  Andrew Hellershanks: still means 32x32 array of sculpties for 8kx8k pixels
[11:08]  Richardus Raymaker: oh, penny. it would be nice if that go to everywhere works
[11:08]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, perhaps its been upped. I always seem to read it was less
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: ie :
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi:
[11:08]  Nebadon Izumi: i could actually if i had the time, probably do even higher quality that the above shots
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I think real life caught up with him.
[11:09]  Richardus Raymaker: sculpts i make are most 512x8 etc.
[11:09]  Jake Long: wow thats sweet ^^
[11:09]  Penny Lane: Richardus: People like Meadhbh and Mike Dickson are arguing the exact opposite. They are wanting only walled gardens, "Go nowhere".
[11:09]  Nebadon Izumi: Ya i have not heard from Charles in a while now
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: wow - that does look good
[11:09]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, I have a program that creats sculpties from terrain files. Now that I think of it that might only be to make sculpties out of the terrain that was already applied to a pregion
[11:10]  Richardus Raymaker: i know penny. still makes me a bit ... you know
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: Personally, I think a successful example of the value of completely distributed environments has to come first, before the needle will move on agreement in principle
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, working examples make a big difference
[11:11]  Penny Lane: JCC: how much of an example do you need to justify that people want to be able to TP between worlds and still maintain their avatar and possessions?
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: those look like quality to me, but they were very difficult to make? were those actually on opensim?
[11:11]  Andrew Hellershanks: nebadon, you are giving me the idea to make Myst Island using a sculpty approach now.
[11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: the only reason the want stupid walls. is because the are afraid for copyy things
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: yes Justin thats in OSgrid
[11:11]  Nebadon Izumi: hang on
[11:11]  Richardus Raymaker: sounds nice andrew
[11:11]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: I think some money has to start exchanging hands, somehow
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: I mean, in terms of economic activity. But perhaps that's an overly cynical viewpoint
[11:12]  BlueWall Slade: jcc++ I need a mac, lol
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: Gonna buy a mac soon, as soon as I work out the tax position
[11:12]  Penny Lane: The open community gets by quite well without money. And the numerous IETF standards were never created on the basis of earning money.
[11:12]  Richardus Raymaker: i think you can compare virtual worlds a bit with music. the keep clamping to old models. that are not working anymore (or will fail)
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: cool justin, you cant hold it any longer ^^
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think we still need a lot more exploration time
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, tax year ends soon
[11:13]  Justin Clark-Casey: at least here in the uk
[11:13]  Andrew Hellershanks: I've run across one world that has an economy but allows HG. Usually those are seen as beeng mutually exclusive things.
[11:13]  Key Gruin: don't you usually need to sell your house or car before getting a new Mac?
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: be sure you get one with good graphics card. if there's choice
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: hi key
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: actually, I don't care much about running the viewer, I just want to compile things in an environment I cna trust
[11:14]  Jake Long: just asking is a 2.2 bg gfx card strong ^^?
[11:14]  Richardus Raymaker: i saw a mac here with screen for 1111 euro. and that sounded already cheap
[11:14]  BlueWall Slade: I think the vwrap converstation in the 80's/90's would be something like AOL , Compuserve and BBN Planet trying to workout a way for their people to travel between each others services.
[11:14]  Jake Long: gb*
[11:14]  Key Gruin: Hi Rich, hi all
[11:14]  Penny Lane: I've run across one or two countries that have economies, and they still allow people to travel between them.
[11:14]  Sarah Kline: hi key
[11:14]  Andrew Hellershanks: Penny :-)
[11:14]  Sarah Kline: lol
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: I think that assumes those companies are taking part. But firstly, none of the vws are anywhere near that big, and secondly no company representatives are taking part now, as far as I can tell
[11:15]  Jake Long: well rich thats like 289 € less then my pc ^^
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny can correct me if that's wrong :)
[11:15]  Jake Long: mines 1400 € ^^
[11:15]  BlueWall Slade: I think ti should work on OpenSim / Hypergrid
[11:15]  BlueWall Slade: but, the viewer is a huge part of it
[11:16]  BlueWall Slade: and it's a black box
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: at least i dont think walled worlds can kepe the wall forever. the one in erlin dropped finaly to.
[11:16]  OtakuMegane Desu: RL countries mostly deal in physical objects and resources. UNtil replicators are invented, you can't just copy it, no matter what.
[11:16]  Richardus Raymaker: erlin = berlin
[11:16]  Andrew Hellershanks: Get a Mac. It's good at twice the price (which is about what it costs vs. other PCs)
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: pff
[11:16]  OtakuMegane Desu: VW are data, which can always be copied if you break through protections
[11:16]  BlueWall Slade: Haaa, nice
[11:16]  Penny Lane: Well dunno, Justin. Meadhbh was "released" by LL a year ago, yet she is still toeing the LL case. And Mike Dickson is from ISS Software, whatever that is, and he's doing the same. So yes, only the corporates are pushing for no VW interop currently. The trouble is, everyone else is silent. I can't fight this battle on my own.
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: heh had to wait for my inventory to load
[11:17]  Nebadon Izumi: there is the sculpted island
[11:17]  Andrew Hellershanks: That looks like something out of a scene from Alien
[11:17]  Andrew Hellershanks: Oh. Lots of sculpties.
[11:17]  BlueWall Slade: I think LL fell off the boat
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: Yeah. I just think it's too early - we barely have open source virtual worlds running at the moment
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: a sculpt of a mesh?
[11:17]  OtakuMegane Desu: Economy in VWs for real estate and services can work fine. But just for buying prims, I don't think it's even worth trying to pursue honestly.
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: well i made the terrain in L3DT
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: beleive it or not in my testing so far
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: i can get much higher quality terrains with Sculpt
[11:18]  Penny Lane: Justin: it'll be too late once the corporates have enshrined non-interop at the IETF. All that's needed is support for the concept of interop between VWs, that's all. Not a full-blown plan.
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: than i can with real mesh formats
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: the problem is splitting real mesh up
[11:18]  Richardus Raymaker: it looks mslall nicer then big :)
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: is very difficult
[11:18]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: Does the IETF deal in concepts?
[11:18]  Nebadon Izumi: its very easy to cut sculpty up
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: but cutting mesh, then actually getting them to line up perfectly again in world
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: i am finding to be quite impossible
[11:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: which program do you use to go from L3DTD to sculpty?
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: Adam wrote me a tool
[11:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: i called it Sculpterra splitter
[11:19]  Andrew Hellershanks: Right. That was the thing you posted to IRC the other night
[11:19]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:19]  Penny Lane: The IETF deals in documents, but if a document says "This protocol is intented to provide interoperability between virtual worlds", then it's supporting a concept.
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: what other platforms are participating there now?
[11:20]  Penny Lane: None. Just Opensim-based ones.
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: and Simiangrid is less than active anymore
[11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: the problem is with interopt. how to carry inventory, and dont lose permissions. if that can figured out i think there's not a big problem
[11:20]  Nebadon Izumi: its not dead, but its certainly not screaming along
[11:20]  BlueWall Slade: then, it would make sense to define things based on OpenSim based vW
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: its got 1 or 2 people working on it at best
[11:21]  Richardus Raymaker: only thing is to not send inventory to region but directly from assets to client
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think even that is still too early
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: lot sof changes are still happening to the HG stuff
[11:21]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:21]  Penny Lane: And so the IETF is making a standard for Opensim worlds that do not interoperate. That's needed like a hole in the head.
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: we've already seen version breakage where people running earlier hg can't interop with later hg
[11:21]  Dutchy Daredevil: Hi Richard ... Hi alll
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dutchy
[11:21]  Andrew Hellershanks: 64 sculpties (8x8) with 256x256 pixel resolution is only 2k x 2k pixels for terrain but still much higher than you can get otherwise
[11:21]  BlueWall Slade: th ehg needs a security layer that is supported by a viewer too
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: right andrew, but the surface texture
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: is 24000x24000 pixels
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: I have a walled garden - a small one
[11:22]  BlueWall Slade: and would love to open it up to HG
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: you cant do that with standard terrain
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, the viewer needs to access data directly from services, not proxied through region simulators
[11:22]  Nebadon Izumi: not even close
[11:22]  OtakuMegane Desu: What about scripts? Where would they run?
[11:23]  Dutchy Daredevil: hi justin
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: do you think we are at a place that we can start defining distributed services?
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: ya in terms of interop
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: i think interop to other platforms is many years off still
[11:23]  Andrew Hellershanks: Nebadon, oh. ok. Thought that was the resolution of the sculptie land.
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: personally, I think someone needs to start doing proof of concept on the viewer side
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: ie, OpenSim to OpenWonderland for instance
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: yeah, the MMOX, I think it was, was like anything that was 3d trying to connect
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've not idea how different they are, but at least they're both client-server
[11:23]  BlueWall Slade: ++jcc
[11:23]  Penny Lane: Well in some sense ROBUST already provides an elementary mechanism for defining independent services, of a sort.
[11:23]  Nebadon Izumi: me personally, I am not that interested in interop to other platforms myself
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think something very interesting could be done viewer-side now
[11:24]  BlueWall Slade: justin - at least someone that is willing to work with it, anyway
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: make it access inventory directly, and shuttle object data up to the simulator
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: would need work on the opensim side as well
[11:24]  BlueWall Slade: since LL has the stranglehold on any viewer code it makes it rough I guess
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: I think one big problem
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: we're going to break down those barriers
[11:25]  Richardus Raymaker: here it comes again....
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: For profit grids, do not want users leaving
[11:25]  BlueWall Slade: they will never open up, until they are too broke to do it
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: its not in their best interest to have users leave their grid
[11:25]  Penny Lane: Indeed, Neb, they have a conflict of interest.
[11:25]  Nebadon Izumi: its like a website, you never really want to divert people away from your website
[11:25]  BlueWall Slade: I have always wanted 2 way traffic
[11:25]  OtakuMegane Desu: SL can stay a wallled garden far as I'm concerned, at least. :P
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: I think is where the aol/open internet parallels becomes stronger
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: Like a retail website that is
[11:26]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm, otaju. but because the wall you never get them out of sl
[11:26]  OtakuMegane Desu: Exactly
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: its like putting links to their rivals
[11:26]  Nebadon Izumi: not gonna happen
[11:26]  Penny Lane: But operators of open grids should not support such limits on the freedom of users to tour around/
[11:26]  BlueWall Slade: I have always seen OSG as a center for open worlds with all kinds of private ones connected in a way that allows travel between them
[11:26]  Jake Long: well got to go now going to my parents once again and few days off work again ^^
[11:27]  Richardus Raymaker: bye jake
[11:27]  Jake Long: but il be back later on ^^
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: bye jake
[11:27]  BlueWall Slade: there just needs to be some protection in place
[11:27]  OtakuMegane Desu: If they come over on their own cause they're tired or curious, fine. Personally I'd rather not have brats running over here through HG from SL and turning opensim grids into the drama house SL is
[11:27]  Andrew Hellershanks: Melanie's grid is closed because of its economy (and content protection?). Anyone remember her thoughts about open vs. closed with economy?
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: ya dont get me wrong, I am not against it, its just not something i have a huge interest in
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: hypergrid?
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: interop in general
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: even to other platforms
[11:27]  OtakuMegane Desu: But that's me lol.
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: if its something people need, they should work it out
[11:27]  Nebadon Izumi: its just not something i can get excited about myself personally
[11:27]  Justin Clark-Casey: fair enough
[11:28]  Penny Lane: Just imagine if SMTP systems were non-interoperable. You wouldn't be able to email from an @yahoo address to an @gmail address, you've have to export text with cut'n'paste from one provider and paste it into the email system of another.
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: the whole open VS permissions is a big mixed up feeling and conflict
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: lol penny, but i cant copy & paste my inventory from other world.
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: well I am very for OpenSim worlds being interconnected
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: i just think its too early to think about anything beyond that
[11:28]  OtakuMegane Desu: Interconnected Opensim is good.
[11:28]  BlueWall Slade: yes, agreed, nebadon
[11:28]  Nebadon Izumi: and I hate facebook and social networking sites in general
[11:28]  Richardus Raymaker: its good strat to get opensims connected
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, but I think we need open protocols
[11:28]  Andrew Hellershanks: There is the work being done on an open protocol for vw's
[11:29]  Richardus Raymaker: HG is needed for standalones that still want to have security but stay open
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: like look at this Kitely project
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's just still too early
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: the idea is great
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: but if you start looking a the costs
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: its absolutely absurd
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: i did the math if 1 person stays logged into their sim for 1 entire month on Kitely, the cost is 144$
[11:29]  Nebadon Izumi: for 1 user
[11:29]  Penny Lane: Neb: that's good enough, all we need is statements of support for interop between VWs. Currently the pro lobby is almost totally mum, and I'm fighting a losing battle at the IETF because of almost no support.
[11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: i think a sable opensim with more complete supprt (LSL,verhicles etc.) is more important now
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: ya, I am not suprised Penny, its very confusing at the moment
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: for the average person none of this makes any sense
[11:30]  BlueWall Slade: Penny, how far ar you on a document?
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, costs would be really high for a continuous sim
[11:30]  Richardus Raymaker: how do you get the 144$ ?
[11:30]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: i just took thier costs
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: .20$ an hour
[11:30]  Nebadon Izumi: and ran that # for an entire month
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: running on amazon web services
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: its .20$ an hour per user
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: is that plus their markup?
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: for Kitely that is
[11:31]  sim core: The question is simple, do we want 50% ownership( with closed worlds) protection or zero ownership protection( with opened worlds) and then decide how to go about for the shared economics!
[11:31]  OtakuMegane Desu: Oh geez. A Facebook-based opensim... ><
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: i assume so, this was thier cost on their website
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: ya its the Facebook on demand opensim service
[11:31]  Justin Clark-Casey: sim: the web doesn't have drm, yet they seem to be doing okay
[11:31]  Penny Lane: It's not confusing!!!! One just has to look ahead a few years, and declare that any VW protocols need to support interop betwen worlds. It's not hard. No need for all the details to be worked out first, just to express support, Charles expressed it many times, despite it not yet being worked out.
[11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: eep
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: the prices seem outrageous to me
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: its going to end up being monumentally more expensive than SL
[11:31]  Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[11:31]  Nebadon Izumi: it doesnt scale
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: what about running worlds temporarily for events?
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: Penny, what do we need to do?
[11:32]  OtakuMegane Desu: Welll, people happily pay out the ass for stuff in SL, despite all the sadly it'll probably succeed,
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: I guess for that it might be ok, but your not getting a full server remember Justin
[11:32]  Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: would you run a big event on a VPS?
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: i sure wouldnt
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: hey dahlia
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: I poseted there once abut shared asset services and was jumped, lol
[11:32]  Nebadon Izumi: not for those prices
[11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: penny just want some http protocol for VW's and it makes sense.
[11:32]  BlueWall Slade: Hey Dahlia
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: true.
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and for the price, think about it if your event is 12 hours
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: the thing is, people are going to experiment no matter what the ietf says
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: and you have 30 people on the sim for 12 hours
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: your talking about 75$
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: thats outrageous
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: tbh, that's pretty cheap
[11:33]  OtakuMegane Desu: If I was gonna pay $144 I'd want a good quality quad-core dedicated server, minimum. :P
[11:33]  Nebadon Izumi: atleast from my perspective, but in the end people will probably pay it
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: once you take into account the non-moentary aspects of getting your own server, etc.
[11:34]  OtakuMegane Desu: Hell. That'd be cheaper, probably
[11:34]  Penny Lane: Just send an email to the VWRAP list saying that as an Opensim user, you believe that interoperability beween virtual worlds is useful, and that you would like to see an IETF standard address that.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: there are many services though for less than 100$ a month
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: you can lease the entire server
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: no extra costs
[11:34]  BlueWall Slade: it's just a way for facebook friends to "run off behind the barn" for a few minutes
[11:34]  Penny Lane: Nothing complex.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: like
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: hmm
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: that is
[11:34]  Richardus Raymaker: i think as soon opensim can have the same quality and functions like sl (opensim at some point already betetr) then i think more people maby leave sl.
[11:34]  Nebadon Izumi: or Snoopies service
[11:34]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. The only real market for Kitely is the truly clueless.
[11:34]  Justin Clark-Casey: tbh, I'm not interested in getting people to leave sl
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: ya me either really
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: Secondlife is more social
[11:35]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm interested in adapting the technology to other needs - for people who don't use sl at all
[11:35]  sim core: Justin@ They use the copyrights act to sue, if profits are made from their material( same things as a book I believe) and in an opened community where there is almost no profit being made the major way they do economics are from banner ads(-: like we might see more of into virtual worlds soon, if it becomes more main-stream I believe)
[11:35]  Richardus Raymaker: i hate facebook
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: it would be really hard to capture what SL has
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: without spending 100's of thousands of dollars
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: even millions
[11:35]  Penny Lane: is the list archive. List info at
[11:35]  OtakuMegane Desu: Some of the issue is everyone gets hung up on interoperability with SL,it seems. Which is probably the least likely to happen and by far the most drama-filled to discuss in any form.
[11:35]  Nebadon Izumi: even the biggest OpenSim grids are microscopic compared to SL
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: like Avination
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: its like 1,100,000th the size of SL
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: 1/100,000th that is
[11:36]  Andrew Hellershanks: You need to factor in age of the grids compared to SL
[11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: sure but OpenSim grids are growing
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: i just think it will be hard to actually capture what SL has though
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: the social side
[11:36]  Nebadon Izumi: not the technology side
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: tech side is easy in comparison
[11:37]  Dahlia Trimble: give it time
[11:37]  OtakuMegane Desu: It's hard to compare opensim grids by age too, though. Because resources are different.
[11:37]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, social is a whole nother aspect
[11:37]  Penny Lane: Not a chance of interop happening with SL, for the forseeable future. But in theory the IETF standards are being made for SL-compatible worlds, and that means Opensim, so that means us.
[11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: for verhicles opensim is better then sl. if there are verhicles here. because no simborder sims option
[11:37]  Penny Lane: Which is a joke.
[11:37]  BlueWall Slade: Penny - the VWRAP, are LL and IBM still chairing that?
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: personally I really hope people dont try to be SL
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:37]  Nebadon Izumi: we need something better
[11:37]  Qandy Saw: right
[11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: I dont think existing protocols are as much of a barrier to interop as the apparent business advantage of a walled garder is
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: the great thing now is that people can experiment :)
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: Be like SL... charge several dollars a month for a full region. ;-)
[11:38]  Richardus Raymaker: verhicle like sims would love it here. i hope
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: exactly Dahlia
[11:38]  Penny Lane: Joshua Linden is still one co-chair, but he is NOT representing LL. He is there on his own time as co-chair. LL has withdrawn, officially.
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: lots of indepedent ideas, rather than have to have everything come from a single company
[11:38]  Andrew Hellershanks: several hundred dollars
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: its more about people wanting to keep their customers in their grid for economic reasons
[11:38]  BlueWall Slade: how about IBM?
[11:38]  OtakuMegane Desu: SL and it's people and drama and fail can stay right where it is thnk you very much. If someone wants to venture out, they'll be welcomed as long as they behave decently.
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: if your users leave your grid
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: there is a good chance they might spend their money elsewhere
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: not saying its a good reasoning
[11:38]  Nebadon Izumi: but thats the thinking i suspect
[11:38]  Dahlia Trimble: me too
[11:39]  Penny Lane: IBM is mum. We hypothesize that IBM has stopped interest in Opensim and VWRAP, and is saying nothing for political reasons.
[11:39]  OtakuMegane Desu: Yep. LL not want lose monies
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: Ultimately, I think it's short sighted. But right now, I'm sure it's hard enough to make money whatever you do from the grid perspective
[11:39]  BlueWall Slade: so, if we put effort into this, can they come back and hose it later?
[11:39]  Penny Lane: Certainly it's stopped development.
[11:39]  Richardus Raymaker: so, thats why the push more and more on one server and create new problem. ^^ :O
[11:39]  Justin Clark-Casey: and you couldn't hg because of the security issues
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: ya is IBM even doing anything in SL anymore even?
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: most of their OpenSim team was reassigned to other projects
[11:39]  sim core: Sl is an entity, most other virtual worlds are one other and it's important to keep in mind the idea of open technologies is to share information not to make as much profit as ll does!
[11:39]  Nebadon Izumi: non VW stuff
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: they still have sims there
[11:40]  Eryn Galen is Offline
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: IBM is wintering, as far as I can tell
[11:40]  Penny Lane: I think they're barely stopping short of withdrawing.
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: its not suprising
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: I think IBM thought they could sell lots of hardware
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: hosting OpenSim
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: unfortunatly their hardware is just way to expensive
[11:40]  Richardus Raymaker: opensim is good to have fun to with lower costs. :)
[11:40]  BlueWall Slade: I think they were developing virtual offices
[11:40]  Justin Clark-Casey: software and culture is too immature to create a big enough market, imo
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: ya thats what i mean Bluewall
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: i think they thought they could market opensim to business
[11:40]  Dahlia Trimble: well it was nice when they had employees commiting to our repo :)
[11:40]  BlueWall Slade: and they probably took it internal
[11:40]  Nebadon Izumi: on their hardware platforms as a product
[11:40]  OtakuMegane Desu: Eventually. But selling hardware for the latest supercomputer project or such like that is probably vastly more profitable right now.
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: But i think its a tough sell
[11:41]  Penny Lane: Damn it, I hijacked the conversation. Sorry. How is Opensim doing?
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: It would have done better as a research project
[11:41]  Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: the learning curve of the viewer is pretty difficult for most, requires pretty heavy hardware on the office computers
[11:41]  Nebadon Izumi: most office machines do not have capable video hardware
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: penny: It still goes. Hoping to finally branch for 0.7.1 soon
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: heh its ok Penny, its all relevant
[11:42]  Dahlia Trimble: Penny, well Bluewall is newest core committer :)
[11:42]  Richardus Raymaker: you mean sl2, thats hard to learn as viewer
[11:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Viewer needs a good bit of optmization. It is pretty harsh on hardware
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: OpenSim is doing quite well
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: slow and steady
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: they were having employees use it, and run their work form home most days of the week
[11:42]  Penny Lane: Gratz BlueWall!
[11:42]  OtakuMegane Desu: Even gaming systems.
[11:42]  Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall has joined the free world :-)
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:42]  Penny Lane: Hehe
[11:42]  Nebadon Izumi: he took the red pill
[11:42]  BlueWall Slade: huh?
[11:43]  Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:43]  BlueWall Slade: ohhh, lol, thanks
[11:43]  Richardus Raymaker: hehe
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: well, not that he was behind the iron curtain before, but you know what I mean :)
[11:44]  Richardus Raymaker: keep some white pills next to yor desk now bluewall
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: I have asperin
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: ll
[11:44]  Dahlia Trimble: or purple ones
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: hehe
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: like the cat
[11:44]  BlueWall Slade: ?
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: i have so many ideas. but it dont proceed fast
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: im happy when users dont use the 0.7.02 anymore
[11:45]  sim core: :-)You need, more 'interop'
[11:45]  Penny Lane: Hehe
[11:45]  Richardus Raymaker: do you go release this week a new version ? you talk about ini change for next version
[11:45]  BlueWall Slade: justin - can you give me +rw on the wiki?
[11:46]  Richardus Raymaker: a clear mind would be more usefull sim
[11:46]  Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: You mean admin access? Any user can rw, after all
[11:46]  BlueWall Slade: just so I can update things about the SQLite
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: I can do that now?
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's a wiki :)
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: I must have been logged out when I tried
[11:47]  BlueWall Slade: that's cool, then I don't need admin access
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: and, how do I build the SQLite in windows?
[11:48]  BlueWall Slade: with the Visual C++ express do it?
[11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: I thought express would build anything in libs
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I've never done it, but I notice sqlite have a precompiled binary on their website
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think that binary does expose the necessary tokens for us
[11:49]  Dahlia Trimble: but I havent tried sqlite
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe that's what we've been using
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: ok, yeah, the optional things have to be enabled
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: It's a pity they don't have precompiled dylibs
[11:49]  BlueWall Slade: maybe they are enabled
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: BlueWall: I believe so
[11:50]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's just mac libraries we don't have now, I think
[11:50]  Penny Lane: Is everybody who is on Impy using the new 2011.03.20 release? Seems to work well for me.
[11:50]  BlueWall Slade: I'm on 1.3.1
[11:50]  Dahlia Trimble: im using Imprudence 1.3.0 (Oct 7 2010 02:31:57) - kinda old I guess
[11:50]  Qandy Saw: me last Exp - chashes often , no reason seems
[11:50]  Andrew Hellershanks: I've been using 1.4.0 experimental
[11:51]  Penny Lane: Juicy Babii is a cloud, but I think that's her proper avatar, because the cloud is pink :P
[11:51]  sim core: :-J
[11:51]  Richardus Raymaker: now i dumped it, bad map penny
[11:51]  Key Gruin: I'm on the newest (except at the moment, changed to old hippo)
[11:51]  Sarah Kline: on Hippo 1.22 works ok
[11:51]  Sarah Kline: lol
[11:51]  Richardus Raymaker: use the 03-11 again
[11:51]  Qandy Saw: :)
[11:51]  Richardus Raymaker: and i use 1.3.1
[11:51]  sim core: I'm on sl 1.23, still the best I find!
[11:52]  Sarah Kline: grimaces
[11:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: I typically use Hippo 0.6.2 (1.23.5 based)
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: I still use 10/23/2010 Imprudence 1.4
[11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: that dont support mega's and other usefulltools sim
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: the newer experimentals have some issues for me
[11:52]  sim core: ( For stability, of course!
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: though progress is being made
[11:52]  Richardus Raymaker: 03-20 dont show maptiles for me
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:52]  Qandy Saw: yeah
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: the map is really broken in 3-20
[11:52]  sim core: Richardus@ I use a script to make the megas etc
[11:52]  Andrew Hellershanks: Imprudence 1.4 has some nice additions for the builder
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: i filed a redmine report with Imprudence team
[11:52]  Nebadon Izumi: i believe that bug is fixed
[11:53]  Nebadon Izumi: for next experimental
[11:53]  Richardus Raymaker: yes. , so i wait until we have a 01-04 or so :)
[11:54]  Richardus Raymaker: but the 1.3.1 is good to
[11:54]  Key Gruin wonders if any code fun is planned for april fools
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: I have not tested 1.3.1 myself much
[11:54]  Nebadon Izumi: i tried it once or twice
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: heh its unlikely Key
[11:55]  Sarah Kline: i will put imp back on as soon as i fix my computer..I had blue screen of death
[11:55]  Key Gruin: darn
[11:55]  Nebadon Izumi: after the 1st time that happened, and the reaction was not very good, i am not sure any dev wants that on their hands at this point
[11:55]  Sarah Kline: lol
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: Key: shhh.... that's when the annoucement will be made about the release of OS 1.0 ;-)
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: lol
[11:55]  Sarah Kline: we can think up something ourselves
[11:55]  Penny Lane: LOL. Make OSgrid appear to interop with WoW for April 1. :P
[11:56]  BlueWall Slade: or, log users into Ahern via out top secret hypergrid tool
[11:56]  Key Gruin: heehee
[11:57]  Dahlia Trimble: sssssh were not supposed to talk about ahern yet ;)
[11:57]  Richardus Raymaker: just make a secret HG sim, only what to put on it
[11:58]  Penny Lane: Neb: Japan might be running a reactor on Opensim master. You never know :P
[11:58]  Dahlia Trimble: as long as they abide by the terms of the license
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'd rather they ran a reactor in the virtual than the real
[11:59]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:59]  BlueWall Slade: heh, we could sell the electricity to the hosting service and make money
[11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: well. thats somethinbg for future. simulators for things to show how it can go wrong
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: then there would be a cpu core meltdown when too many avatars visit?
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: we could always start a ruomor Microsoft is buying opensim
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: that would be fun
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[12:00]  Penny Lane imagines the reactor admin pressing the Turn Off Chain Reaction button in Opensim model, and the display shows Rick Astley instead.
[12:00]  BlueWall Slade: we would have Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
[12:00]  Dahlia Trimble: lol
[12:00]  Qandy Saw: lol
[12:00]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, got to go and do some things
[12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: bye justin
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: ya me too
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: till the next time. byte for now
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: ok, ya hour went fast today
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: oop, bye :)
[12:01]  Sarah Kline: bye
[12:01]  Dahlia Trimble: bye all :)
[12:01]  sim core: :-)See-you, Justin and all
[12:01]  Qandy Saw: me too - bye
[12:01]  BlueWall Slade: bye bye
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: hehe see ya Justin and Dahlia
[12:01]  Nebadon Izumi: thanks for coming everyone
[12:01]  Penny Lane: Talking of MS, someone's prolly hooked up Opensim to the Kinect, I imagine.
[12:01]  Andrew Hellershanks nods
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