Chat log from the meeting on 2010-05-25

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Tuesday Meeting @ Wright Plaza on OSGrid

[10:03] Orion Hax: it shows nearby objects
[10:03] Richardus Raymaker: wich viewer ?
[10:03] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: aha, ok i see
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: Hello Justin
[10:04] Orion Hax:
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: Hello Julie
[10:04] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi neb, richardus, folks
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: hey hri
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: hiro*
[10:04] Hiro Protagonist: Neb, Justin :D
[10:04] Hiro Protagonist: Hi Penny
[10:04] Orion Hax: its nice because i can use my poor laptop
[10:04] Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone
[10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: hi hiro
[10:05] Warin Cascabel: Howdy, all.
[10:05] Warin Cascabel: Hoo, a bit chatlaggy.
[10:05] Hiro Protagonist: everybody I missed and that aint here yet
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats awesome you can navigate enough to sit with a headless viewer
[10:05] Hiro Protagonist: brb need some java
[10:05] Warin Cascabel: What's that? Someone's walking around in textmode?
[10:05] Orion Hax: yes me
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: Orion is using Radegast
[10:05] Warin Cascabel: Sweet.
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: and was able to make it upstairs and sit
[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: wow, you're not grey today, penny
[10:05] Warin Cascabel: Is it opensource?
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: ya no one is grey
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: how awesome
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: yes Warin
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:06] Warin Cascabel: Sweet. I wonder if it can be ported to Android. :)
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: maybe
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: is there a linux version?
[10:06] Orion Hax: i think it has a nix build
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: yep
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: hi penny
[10:06] Warin Cascabel: Multi-platform mono
[10:06] Dave Coyle is Online
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: probably will work on android if mono does
[10:07] Warin Cascabel: Well, maybe if I installed Debian on my phone...
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[10:07] Warin Cascabel: Nah, android is a javaish VM.
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: they will hack on mono eventually im sure
[10:07] Richardus Raymaker: why do the have not a screenshot from the complete gui like i see now ?
[10:07] Warin Cascabel: I think it's an ARM processor - does mono work on those?
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: it does Warin
[10:08] Warin Cascabel: Oh, sweet.
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:08] Warin Cascabel: Muah hah hah hah
[10:08] Warin Cascabel: Time to run OpenSim on a phone. :)
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: looks interesting
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: monodroid
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: says it runs .net apps
[10:09] Penny Lane: JCC: that's a point, no grey people here today, things are looking up :-)
[10:09] Warin Cascabel: What the hell, I've already voided my warranty... :)
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: yes i also noticed at Sundays Town hall meeting
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: also zero greys
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: we had 25 visitors
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: at peak
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I've spotted Master Dubrovna though :)
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: town hall?
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya 1 grey
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: we have Townhall meetings on sunday nights
[10:09] Penny Lane: No, he's white
[10:09] Warin Cascabel: Yeah, was just about to mention. But he's all white to me.
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: probably way to late for you
[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: that's probably my early morning :)
[10:10] Hiro Protagonist: brialliant, mono on the android platform
[10:10] Penny Lane: Dunno what a white av means, but it's not the same as grey :P
[10:10] Hiro Protagonist: dont forget that there is a growing adaptation of android for netbooks
[10:10] Ethan McConaught: He's gray for me.
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: ya true
[10:10] Hiro Protagonist: I actually dual boot it on my netbook
[10:10] Nebadon Izumi: Mono does run on ARM though
[10:10] Warin Cascabel: Can't wait for the Android iPad-like tablet.
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: so i imagine it is possible if your crazy enough to try
[10:11] Hiro Protagonist: that's wicked, I had dared not hope
[10:11] Hiro Protagonist: actually dell just released one in eurpoe that is supposed to be out this summer in the US
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: ya the Mini5
[10:11] Hiro Protagonist: or is about to later this week rather
[10:11] Nebadon Izumi: is that android?
[10:11] Hiro Protagonist: called the 'Streak' I think it is
[10:11] Hiro Protagonist: yep
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: interesting, im suprised its not windows
[10:12] Dave Coyle: the dell android devices have been more restrictive in what you can run than the others
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think the pads are fast enough for windows yet
[10:12] Hiro Protagonist: android is just too available
[10:12] Hiro Protagonist: it also supports multitouch
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya but there are a lot of windows apps
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: id want to run
[10:12] Nebadon Izumi: without them i cant see myself enjoying a pad much
[10:13] Dahlia Trimble is Online
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: im still kind of skeptical anyway about the touchscreen keyboards
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: i would have to try one out
[10:13] Hiro Protagonist: well, the android devices arent meant to replace real PCs
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:13] Odious Otter: hello folks
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: either is the ipad
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:13] Warin Cascabel: Yeah, it'd be like trying to use a hammer to do the same things a microwave does.
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: hello Mr Otter
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:13] Warin Cascabel: Hello, Odious.
[10:13] Hiro Protagonist: they're meant to be highly portable wireless thin clients with multichannel communcations capability
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: hi otter
[10:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:13] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: has anyone here tried a ipad yet?
[10:14] Hiro Protagonist: the ubiqitous terminal
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: i havent even seen one
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[10:14] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[10:14] Hiro Protagonist: I've seen 'em on TV
[10:14] Odious Otter: opensim on android/ipad/iphone?
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: im just wondering how it is to hold it and type /use the touch screen
[10:14] Penny Lane waves at Dahlia :-)
[10:14] Nebadon Izumi: seems like it would be awkward to me
[10:14] Hiro Protagonist: they look typically apple - very well designed, very well built, and completely proprietary
[10:14] Warin Cascabel: Probably less awkward than trying to hold my Eee PC in one hand and type with the other. Or at least not any MORE awkward.
[10:15] Hiro Protagonist: e.g., the hood is welded shut
[10:15] Dave Coyle: neb: awkward for a vw client? or awkward to type on it in general?
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya true i guess
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: just in general
[10:15] Hiro Protagonist: s/eg/ie
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: seems like you would be limited to 1 hand typing
[10:15] Nebadon Izumi: always
[10:15] Hiro Protagonist: I mostly type just with thumbs - but my droid has a keyboard
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ya well for something that fits in your pocket it makes sense
[10:16] Hiro Protagonist: it's a pain in the ass too, just a lesser pain in the ass than the onscreen k/b
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ahh so they have onscreen keyboards too
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt know that
[10:16] Hiro Protagonist: oh yes
[10:16] Nebadon Izumi: ive never used a handheld droid either
[10:16] Hiro Protagonist: I have a motorola backflip
[10:16] Hiro Protagonist: it's just a phone, but made by aliens
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: nice, it would be cool to see some kind of VW app on a pad some day
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: i jsut wonder how hard it would be to control without a mouse and real keyboard
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: they have motion sensing too right?
[10:17] Dave Coyle: there's a youtube clip of naali running on a nokia N900
[10:17] Hiro Protagonist: yeah it would be interesting - the interface design constraints are vastly different on a touch screen device
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya i did see that
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: well i guess back to OpenSim Dev stuff
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:18] Hiro Protagonist: now on the netbook I use a mouse just like on a pc
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: same here
[10:18] Hiro Protagonist: I mean when running android
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: I wonder what has changed recetnly that now we are seeing much less grey avatars
[10:18] Hiro Protagonist: http textures?
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: do you think it could be the CSJ2K fix that Snoopy provided?
[10:19] Hiro Protagonist: could be that too
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: are we 100% using http textures now?
[10:19] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Post_Fixes) a6c7995: 2010-05-24 19:19:44 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt think that was in 0.6.9
[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: no, I don't believe there being used at all yet
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: ya i didnt either
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: wasnt sure about 0.7 though
[10:19] Odious Otter: quite possibly, I've been talking with the Imprudence people and they tell me most of the image rendering issues come from the openjpeg library
[10:19] Justin Clark-Casey: you need a viewer that uses them - last I heard the implementations were still buggy but that was a while ago
[10:20] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting
[10:20] Hiro Protagonist: Kk - you guys are in far better shape to know than I at present :)
[10:20] Hiro Protagonist: Imprudence does support them however - I have the check on now
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: yes one thing we still use openjpeg for
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: for OSSL dynamic texture function
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: we really need to replace that with CSJ2k soon
[10:20] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: are you planning to update with the latest 0.6.9-post-fixes?
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: i think that could be some of our memory leaking and crashing perhaps
[10:20] Nebadon Izumi: for a release you mean?
[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: this region was just updated about an hour ago
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: yes i will
[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: ok
[10:21] Hiro Protagonist: I am pretty certain about that - I think you're 100% correct there
[10:21] Richardus Raymaker: oh.
[10:21] Justin Clark-Casey: how much would you say that the dynamic texture module is used?
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: it calls openjpeg
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: and not CSJ2k
[10:21] Nebadon Izumi: if we replace that we can remove openjpeg from opensim
[10:21] Penny Lane: I found yet another OpenJPEG issue in the latest Imprudence. That library doesn't seem very high quality, unfortunately.
[10:21] Hiro Protagonist: I bet we could practically eliminate server memory leaks by getting on CSJ2K
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: openjpeg is flat out terrible
[10:22] Penny Lane nods
[10:22] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:22] Warin Cascabel: That would explain why dynamic textures are still very slow to load, in contrast to the static textures which are now lightning fast.
[10:22] Penny Lane: Wonder why
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: no one should use it ever
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: correct Warin
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: CSJ2K is like 20 times faster than Openjpeg
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: openjpeg requires a cache its so slow
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: CSJ2K does not
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: and be done with the foul beast
[10:22] Odious Otter: hmm, would CSJ2K work for the viewer side too
[10:22] Nebadon Izumi: possibly
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: its part of Libomv
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: quite sure
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: be neat to find out
[10:23] Hiro Protagonist: should if the client was an libOMV one
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: well it might be able to be adapted for LL viewers
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: like openjpeg was
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: and function a lot better
[10:23] Hiro Protagonist: you mean some sort of wrapper?
[10:23] Odious Otter: Maybe I'll bring it up to the Imprudence folks and see if it's feasable to adopt it
[10:23] Nebadon Izumi: we would need to talk to Imprudence guys
[10:23] Penny Lane: Jpeg2k may be on the way out anyway
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: well Imprudence already replaced LLKDU.dll with openjpeg
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: because rally they cant distribute it in their releases
[10:24] Hiro Protagonist: why do you say that Penny?
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: http textures
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: no need for streaming format over UDP
[10:24] Hiro Protagonist: nods
[10:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats why we really use J2K
[10:24] Hiro Protagonist: yeah
[10:25] Penny Lane: Neb: it's the other way around: OpenJPEG is the default in the absence of KDU libs. If you poke the two KDU files into the bin/ and lib/ directories, the default gets overridden and KDU is used.
[10:25] Hiro Protagonist: nothing like pandeering to those who are still on dialup heh
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: jhurliman and jradford were talking about that in vwrap few weeks ago
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: right, thats what i thought i said Penny
[10:25] Nebadon Izumi: imprudence doesnt ship with llkdu.dll
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: instead it used openjpeg
[10:26] Hiro Protagonist checks on the chickens
[10:26] WhiteStar Magic: they are working out a way to optionally pull it from LL
[10:26] Penny Lane: It hasn';t replaced KDU. It simply doesn't ship KDU
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt it could probably be adapted for any J2K decoder
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya i see sorry
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: you are right about that
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: i just meant they replaced the functionality
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: i wasnt very clear though
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: we should talk to the imprudence team
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: see what they think
[10:27] Bartholomew Kleiber: hi all
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: see if the work is worth the short term gains
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: i just wonder how long before we really have http textures
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: especially since C# might not make the best http server with opensim
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: how that will play out
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: hi bartholomew
[10:28] Penny Lane: Hehe, SL is becoming all green as the masses move to Emerald, and Opensim is becoming all purple as Imprudence becomes more popular :P
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: it will still better than udp, even so, I should think
[10:28] WhiteStar Magic: Purple RULES
[10:28] Richardus Raymaker: yes
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:29] Penny Lane: :-))
[10:29] Odious Otter: Yes, go purple people
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya i meant to log in with imprudence to todays meeting
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: and totally forgot im on hippo
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: its like etched into my brain
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: click the hippo
[10:30] Penny Lane: Hehe
[10:30] Key Gruin needs an Imprudence t-shirt
[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: problem hippo 0.76.3 dont run here
[10:30] Penny Lane: Neb: oh, you mean the Imp guys fixed your video problem?
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: i even do that when i want to log into SL
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: i click the hippo
[10:30] Bartholomew Kleiber: so - imprudence is the way to go with OpenSim?
[10:30] WhiteStar Magic: fortunately, the most current openJPG (1.4) is in Imprudence now and that stopped the Memory Leaks and reduced teh crash rate for those using openJPG.
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: I think so Penny
[10:30] Richardus Raymaker: uhmm chat lag 0.6.3
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: its not the Viewer Rich
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: its the sim
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: im sure everyone is getting the lag
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: its when someone logs in
[10:30] Justin Clark-Casey: how are the imprudence weely builds?
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ive noticed
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: so far Great Justin
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: crashing is down, functionality is up
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: OSgrid is the default grid now
[10:31] Dave Coyle: the weekly that came out yesterday has been good for me so far
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey smiles
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: No nebadon. its linux
[10:31] Dahlia Trimble: oops a lag spike? I was moving some things in inventory
[10:31] Odious Otter: I like the weeklies
[10:31] Odious Otter: they're great
[10:31] Key Gruin: hehe ty Penny :)
[10:31] Penny Lane: :-)
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya inventory functions can lag the sim doo
[10:31] Odious Otter: they seem to be only getting more stable
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: to*
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: only the last weekly is not so good for me.
[10:31] WhiteStar Magic: They are pretty good, the current weekly is quite stable, especially after llKDU is dropped into it, it renders HTTP Textures & Sculpts nicely and fast. But teh server tends to be very chatty with HTTP Textures on
[10:31] Richardus Raymaker: im back on previous weekly
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: imprudence works okay with http textures?
[10:32] WhiteStar Magic: yes it does
[10:32] WhiteStar Magic: AS LONG AS it has llKDU
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: whitestar: yes - I'm sure the debug stuff will be dialled down as things become stable
[10:32] Odious Otter: I find that with openjpeg HTTP textures dont' work so nicely
[10:32] Hiro Protagonist: :)
[10:32] Odious Otter: keep it off if you use vanilla weekly build or use it if you have llkdu.dll installed
[10:33] WhiteStar Magic gave you KDU & SLVoice in 3rd Party Viewer.
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: nice whitestar
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: that on the forums too?
[10:33] Key Gruin: will I crash the sim if I change shirts lol
[10:33] WhiteStar Magic: That makes it a little easier, along teh lines of my Forum Posting
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, the joy of workarounds
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[10:34] WhiteStar Magic: I been testing a variety of solutions and issues with McCabe re openJPG and benching teh mem issues
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: nice how is that going?
[10:34] WhiteStar Magic: He's given me some "interesting" builds to test with, I'll say
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe cool
[10:34] Odious Otter: yeah, McCabe rocks
[10:34] Key Gruin: agreed
[10:34] WhiteStar Magic: openJPG is really the big bugger in teh mix
[10:35] Key Gruin: the Imprudence team rocks
[10:35] Odious Otter: Yes, it is
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: ya Whitestar you should mention CSJ2K to him
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: and see if its possible to work that in for some testing
[10:35] Odious Otter: It's part of why I was keen to sieze on your mention of CSJ2k
[10:35] WhiteStar Magic: but neb, Try teh current weekly With KDU and HTTP ON
[10:35] WhiteStar Magic: Then flip on Shadows
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: ok will do
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: but not with http
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: nice i did try shadows
[10:35] WhiteStar Magic: The world will change dramatically with the Shadows on
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: i get like 2fps with shadows on
[10:36] Key Gruin: lol
[10:36] WhiteStar Magic: again, use KDU
[10:36] UUID Speaker: Felan Enzo: cf8d572f-4c9c-edd1-e9e1-6868a4dddd07
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: on a Quad core Q9550 with 8gb ram and Nvidai 250
[10:36] Odious Otter: shadows need some help, they don't play the best with alpha layers and run very slowly. I suspect they could be better implemented with proper video acceleration
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: ya i need to double check im using KDU
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: i bet im not
[10:36] Richardus Raymaker: i prefefr to get a higher framerate, not lower
[10:36] WhiteStar Magic: Shadws + openJPG != Good
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: hehe kk good to know
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: i bet i didnt replace the file
[10:36] Odious Otter: I think render pipe improvements are fairly low on the list right now though
[10:36] WhiteStar Magic: nothng to replace, it auto-detects
[10:36] WhiteStar Magic: just copy in teh llKDU.* from SL Viewer 1.23.5
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: anybody noticed a problem with persisting attachments for 0.6.9-post-fixes on standalone?
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: i had not noticed but heard it might be a sqlite issue
[10:37] Odious Otter: I've been running into that lately
[10:37] Richardus Raymaker: it looks like the dont deteach...
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I would think that too if I weren't using mysql
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: ah ok
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: well bummer then
[10:38] Odious Otter: I would notice, I'm a walking attachemnt load test
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I can attach things but on relog they've disappeared. Looks like I need to investigate
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: ya i heard some people mention same thing Justin
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: its not just you
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, that's a good signal
[10:38] WhiteStar Magic: With MySql occassional attachments fail to persist in 6.9-post-fixes, I am getting a fair number of people mentioning it @ 3RG
[10:38] Nebadon Izumi: i think i only heard sqlite people mention it
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it's probably something I'll take a look at soon since it's really beginning to bug me :)
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: it's fine on master
[10:39] Odious Otter: awesomesauce
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya thats odd i have not seen it in grid mode
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: occaisonally when im wearing a super heavy avatar like the alien
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, for some reason it doesn't manifest there
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: i will be missing 1 or 2 peices
[10:39] Hiro Protagonist: actually
[10:39] WhiteStar Magic: We are running dd1b99-12757 from URM down to region servers
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: but i figured wearing 3800 prims thats a risk you take right now
[10:39] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:39] Hiro Protagonist: I just realized I lost the cigar I've been smoking for months
[10:39] Bartholomew Kleiber: lol
[10:39] Odious Otter: lol hiro
[10:40] Orion Hax: thats onenice cigar it lasts that long
[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: one other thing is that the attachments I'm concerened with are all hud stuff - not sure if that will make a difference - I'll need to test at the end of the week
[10:40] Dave Coyle: my shoes sometimes make it, sometimes don't. but i've had that problem for well over a year.
[10:40] WhiteStar Magic: Hiro, if it wasn't rolled with ZigZag Prims, it won;t persist
[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, it's possible that the latest 0.6.9-post-fixes might alleviate missing attachments
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: Hiro a few days ago at Lbsa plaza you were wearing it
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: i remember looking at your smoke
[10:40] Nebadon Izumi: doh he crashed
[10:40] WhiteStar Magic: he crashed
[10:40] Justin Clark-Casey: occasionally missing ones - as opposed to a failure to ever persist anything at all
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: my inventory is just too large to notice if something goes missing
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:41] Odious Otter: likewise
[10:41] Odious Otter: but I do sure notice when my subprims of attachments won't rez or when something I detached fails to do so
[10:41] Penny Lane: Group chat working Neb, gratz :-))
[10:41] Odious Otter: the two seem related
[10:41] Richardus Raymaker: shoes and hair i dont see much problem. only you lost sometimes hair with teleport. sit on poseball fix that 99% of the time
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya, Mcortez kicked but getting that fixed
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: i just helped him test it mostly
[10:42] Hiro Protagonist is Online
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting - I don't see that issue on standalone
[10:42] WhiteStar Magic: we are using his fixed version and it's operating quite nicely
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: is that probably a general grid issue or something specific to osgrid?
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya I assume in justincs case Richardus that the database is probably not even being updated, Justin?
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey farts discreetly
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: yeah, that's what I think in my case
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: ya if nothings reattaching that would probably be so
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: but as I said, the occasional loss issue might actually be alleviated in the latest 0.6.9-post-fixes
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey grins
[10:43] Dahlia Trimble: EWWWWWW
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: no guarantees though
[10:43] Hiro Protagonist: Look out for those killer rabbits!
[10:43] Key Gruin: oops
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: wb Hiro
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: i was saying as you crashed
[10:44] Hiro Protagonist: ty ty
[10:44] Warin Cascabel: There's still an issue that if you log out or teleport while wearing an attachment that you've modified, the changes are not saved (unless you have taken it off and put it back on again).
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: i saw you on Lbsa plaza about 2-3 days ago
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: wearing that cigar
[10:44] Penny Lane: What's the architecture of this group chat system? Just a single server and single grid only, or something better?
[10:44] Hiro Protagonist: yep
[10:44] WhiteStar Magic: LOL see what talking about cigaers gets ya
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: warin: ah, intersting to know
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: Penny yes, right now i beleive the OSgrid groups would only work on regions connected directly to osgrid
[10:44] Penny Lane: kk
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: we really dont want other grids using our resources like that
[10:45] Dahlia Trimble: or connected to the messaging server
[10:45] Penny Lane: lol
[10:45] WhiteStar Magic: I can confirm what Warin said, you do have to detach and reattach for teh changes, even if just modding a script
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya i forgot about that
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: but thats not to keep you wearing them right
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: that is only to persist changes you just made
[10:45] Warin Cascabel: Right.
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: like adjustments
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: ok
[10:45] WhiteStar Magic: yep
[10:46] Odious Otter: yep
[10:46] Orion Hax: I always liked the design principles of google wave for the messageing servers
[10:46] Odious Otter: always cycle your attachments if you mess with them at all
[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: WS, thast nothing news you need to deteach if you want to store new position. thats for 1 year or so already present
[10:46] Penny Lane: I assume Opensim worlds are going to interop. Careful with "we really dont want other grids using our resources like that" --- it's like a Walled Garden Manifesto :P
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: sure i think so, at what level
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: i cant say
[10:47] Dave Coyle: it's not that we don't want to share with others, it's that we don't really have ability right now to prevent people from doing bad things from outside the grid.
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: but there will be some form of interop
[10:47] Odious Otter: interop is fine but it needs to go through the proper channels
[10:47] Penny Lane: yeah, need controls
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: we need to see where Vwrap and HG2 go
[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: walled garden with mailbox
[10:47] Dahlia Trimble: I dont think OSGrid cares about people connecting to the messaging servers, but will probably need help with donations for servers if load goes up too high
[10:47] Odious Otter: yes, I assume you can apply the same hypergrid principles to messages
[10:48] Richardus Raymaker: but IM World wide between grids would be nice. but not easy
[10:49] Dahlia Trimble: and I dont think the current messaging servers are designed for a lot of use
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: it's probably adnother identity problem - how do we find the appropriate message recipients in the entire metaverse?
[10:49] Key Gruin: how about using URC
[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: betetr let it work without problems here first
[10:49] Key Gruin: IRC
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: building on top of an existing IM infrastructure seems most sensible - I know people are alreayd thinking along those lines
[10:49] Penny Lane: JCC: shout, loud :P
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: penny: lol
[10:49] Hiro Protagonist: well said Justin
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi shouts: boooo
[10:49] WhiteStar Magic: problem with large group messeging is it hits all users and all regions to see if Avatar-X in grp is on and there.
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi shouts: i accidently closed my viewer
[10:50] Hiro Protagonist: lol
[10:50] WhiteStar Magic: the overhead can be quite huge
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: thought i was closing firefox
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: damng it
[10:50] Richardus Raymaker: you need some avatar tracking system, to keep requests down
[10:50] Penny Lane: It's going to be an interesting issue, definitely. IM groups are certainly going to cross all world boundaries.
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: can someone send me log at end of meeting before you all log out
[10:50] Odious Otter: finding and addressing recipiants shouldn't be too big an issue
[10:50] Hiro Protagonist: yes, it'll be impossible without a very distributed backend I guess
[10:50] Dave Coyle: whitestar: that's just because the current implementation is designed that way. it doesn't have to be that way forever, though.
[10:50] WhiteStar Magic: in a preiod of 24 hrs, we were saving GRP msgs as a test... 252,000 msgs later I wiped them from teh DB
[10:50] Penny Lane: Hiro++
[10:51] WhiteStar Magic: @ Dave, yeah, McCortez said this is addressed at least in part with 0.7
[10:51] Richardus Raymaker: GRP message work bad. so that much
[10:51] Hiro Protagonist: you could make the same mistakes as were made with email, and know the devil you love (or something like that) - using a functionality similar to an MX record in the DNS
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: Whitestar OSGrid has less than 10,000 ofline message stored currentyly
[10:52] Hiro Protagonist: you could load it into a text record type
[10:52] WhiteStar Magic: yeah... GRP msgs are nasty as tehy store everything for everyone
[10:52] Odious Otter: I thought offline messages didnt work here yet
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: they do
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: you have to enable it in the OpenSim.ini
[10:52] Richardus Raymaker: offline works, group is a bit broken
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: the OSgrid release has it enabled by default
[10:53] Hiro Protagonist: you have to configure for them against a server process somewhere - whether locally or shared
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: you dont want offline group messages
[10:53] WhiteStar Magic: NO NEVER !!!
[10:53] Orion Hax: i think messageing should be handeld like im except for local chat so its a single endpoint not many
[10:53] Richardus Raymaker: yes, but offline works not good to
[10:53] WhiteStar Magic: Storing offline grp msgs == VERY NASTY
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: well the region your in must have it enabled too
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: so it might not work everywhere
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: its possible alot of sims dont have it enabled
[10:53] Penny Lane: Well storing offline messages has to be one of the easiest things to do. Operating systems are good at storing files :-)
[10:54] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know osgrid config have it enabled by default
[10:54] Odious Otter: heck, I find some groups far too chatty even with just online group messages sometimes
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: yes we do, but sims misbehave thats likely the # reason it would fail
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: crashing on login
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: the message gets cleared
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: but your sim and viewer crashed before you get it
[10:54] Dahlia Trimble: the ini flag is there because the default used to be to send all messages to the server, group or not
[10:54] Odious Otter: "No! I don't want to come and party every hour. :/"
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: so you never get it
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: hello Lani
[10:55] Richardus Raymaker: yes, the think you have plenty of time to party :O
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: out of curiousity, what do you discuss at the sunday town hall meetings?
[10:55] Lani Global: greetings
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: hi lani
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: its less Technical and more about grid life
[10:55] Dave Coyle: justin: non-technical stuff for users
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: more social meeting than tech
[10:55] Warin Cascabel: That's the intent, at least. :)
[10:55] Dave Coyle: what's going well, what are the pain points
[10:55] Odious Otter: I do, but sometimes I get a lot of messages from one group in the course of a day
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ahh, cool
[10:55] Penny Lane: Yeah well that's just LL's stupid viewer screwing us again. It has no business sucking all old messages off and then crashing --- user protocol missing there.
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[10:56] Odious Otter: back on SL some days I felt like I spent most of my time closing the damn group message windows
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: its probably not the most ideal system for OSgrid
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: in a closed grid where 100% of the simulators run the same code
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: oin the same OS
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: on giggabit lan
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya it might work better
[10:56] WhiteStar Magic: in your opensim.ini see if under the
[MESSAGING] section this is set: ForwardOfflineGroupMessages = false
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: we are just so diverse here in the versions everyone is running
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to know the outcome of that really
[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: the laws can vary in different parts of the universe...
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: teleporting to differnt versions could have ill effects that are unintended
[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: which is why eventually there needs to be some kind of standardized teleport protocol
[10:57] Odious Otter: well, there's always the bump to fix that problem temporarily
[10:57] Richardus Raymaker: :)
[10:57] Dahlia Trimble: pumpkin time, bye all :)
[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: bye dahlia
[10:57] Odious Otter: lol, later Dahlia
[10:57] WhiteStar Magic: ni ni Dahlia
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: kk Dahlia, see ya thanks for coming
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: man this hour flew by today
[10:58] Odious Otter: refactor's a bump isn't it?
[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it will have to be
[10:58] WhiteStar Magic: more than a bump
[10:58] Richardus Raymaker: but why are group message working sometimes and some groups not ?
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: thats a hill
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: not a bump
[10:58] Odious Otter: lol, yes
[10:59] Odious Otter: lol, is our meeting hour already over?
[10:59] WhiteStar Magic: grp msgs depend on teh server you are on
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: yes unfortunatly we have hit the 1 hour mark
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: everyone is more than welcome to stay and keep chatting
[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: ah. how time flies
[10:59] Richardus Raymaker: sofar i know its on, group is created. but never could do group chat
[10:59] Odious Otter: I didn't even get aroudn to telling you all what an exciting night me and greybeard had
[10:59] WhiteStar Magic: I just hjope the current IAR issue is resolved soon
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: Group chat can be very harsh Richardus
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: if your running on a VPS or underpowered servier
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: group chatting to a group with 100 people is gonna be nasty
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: even less probably
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: 30-40+
[11:00] WhiteStar Magic: we do it in 3RG and IT IS VERY Nasty !
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: could be semi harsh
[11:00] Lani Global: group messages play an essential part in the social networking. but also, good controls on it, such as those in emerald, go a long way to making it livable when you don't want to be bothered by it.
[11:00] Key Gruin: griefer encounters, Odious?
[11:00] Odious Otter: yep, our friend came back and trashed World Grid
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: that sucks
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: world grid?
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: 3 users in the group, pretty empty server
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: only 4 regions
[11:01] Dave Coyle thanks justin for OARs
[11:01] Odious Otter: we all estate banned him and he came back with yet another account name
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: i need to test it again
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: Richardus if you want give it a shot later on one of our plazas
[11:01] Warin Cascabel: Trashed? Greybeard told me he didn't do much damage because building was turned off.
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: let me know how that goes
[11:01] Odious Otter: yeah, World Star was not happy about that
[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: dave: thanks :)
[11:01] Odious Otter: I couldnt' get into the sim to see for myself
[11:02] Odious Otter: all I recall is that world star was most displeased when he came into LBSA this morning
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: odious: time to start firewalling by ip?
[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: ok
[11:02] Warin Cascabel: Let's not spread secondhand rumors, then; they tend to grow in the telling. :)
[11:02] Dave Coyle: i've had a few vandals come by. but a couple of 'load oar's later and things were as good as new.
[11:02] Odious Otter: also, LBSA and wright had some odd problems
[11:02] Lani Global: i've been floating a concept idea among some forums and devs.... a 'trust network' that includes accurate radar... good for security and griefer control... could track alts easily, including 1-day alts.
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: yes Wright Plaza was in bad shape this morning
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: not from griefers but by our own hands
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:02] WhiteStar Magic: neb, is auto-return ON in sandboxes ?
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: i did alot of work this morning to make this meeting last this long
[11:02] Odious Otter: you might want to look into the logs for last night. The processes count started climbing on plaza 04 at about 2:40AM PST
[11:03] Odious Otter: by about an hour later the RAM was soaked at 100% and about 120 processes were running
[11:03] WhiteStar Magic: I was there 2 days ago, must have been 20 of Kidds stargates all over it. could not move for love nor money
[11:03] Dave Coyle: that's not uncommon
[11:03] Warin Cascabel: Sandbox autoreturn is on, but at 24 hours the regions frequently crash before objects are aged enough to return.
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: Odius ya, its not uncommon
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: Plaza02 and Plaza04 both have sandboxes
[11:03] Odious Otter: the CPU was 100% utalized from the moment that started happening
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: that tend to epxlode and use 400% cpu
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it effects the entire server
[11:03] Penny Lane: I hate griefers, and there's going to be a LOT of griefing in open worlds. It's going to need extreme system hardening, and good system tools. There's no guardian to run to.
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: just let us know when things are bad on IRC
[11:03] Key Gruin: still a bunch of trash at the Sandbox
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: we have plenty of folks on hand to kick em over
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ok Key
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i will swing by there soon and do some raking up
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: once the sims get too full

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