Chat log from the meeting on 2010-01-26

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Tuesday Meeting @ Wright Plaza on OSGrid

[11:03] Sarvana Cherry is Online
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: it lives!!!
[11:04] Justin Clark-Casey: lol
[11:04] Richardus Raymaker: its alive again
[11:04] Entering god mode, level 255
[11:05] Pete Skysmith: hi everybody
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[11:05] Richardus Raymaker: hi , again..
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Pete
[11:05] Nebadon Izumi: heh scripts are still starting
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: justin can better rebake , looks black for me
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: ya i see justin black also
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: this screen is sitting on my 4th monitor, so the avatar is fscked up
[11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: hi all
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: lol 3 screens not enough ? :)
[11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: my attachments do not work
[11:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: grrr
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: no - 4 screens is my minimum :)
[11:08] Adam Frisby: I was wondering why there was so many people logged in.
[11:08] Adam Frisby: I popped in to check it out, without realise it was a meeting day. =p
[11:08] Adelle Fitzgerald: yaay, no hair or boots... hello everyone :)
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: hello snoopy, adam, adelle
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: heh try rezzing your hair on the ground
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi snoopy
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: then reattach stuff
[11:09] Hiro Protagonist: hey everbodeh
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi hiro
[11:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh, just lag i think
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: seems like we are getting some kind of texture queue jam ups under load
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: Adam: isn't it some ridiculous time in the morning over in Australia?
[11:10] Adam Frisby: 6:00AM
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: not yet gone to bed or just got up?
[11:10] Hiro Protagonist: what is this thing you call 'bed'
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:11] Adam Frisby: Yeah, I totally dont sleep.
[11:11] Adam Frisby: Been up since like 8PM yesterday
[11:11] Adam Frisby: Australia day fireworks woke me up
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I don't know about you folks but unfortunatley I need a good 7 or 8 hours - it's my weakness
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: if i sleep 8 hours im ruined
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: adam: :)
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i might as well not get out of bed that day
[11:11] Hiro Protagonist: I need about seven but usually get closer to 5
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: 5-6 tops for me
[11:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: i thought a lack of sleep was an opensim core requirement?
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: but i usually do take a short afternoon nap
[11:12] Hiro Protagonist: lol
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: not onl;y yours JCC
[11:12] OtakuMegane Desu: .
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I'd like to take an afternoon nap too but I don't often get that luxury. Oh well
[11:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: i usually make up for it at weekends
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: Adelle: I'm one of the few normal people ;)
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: ill get maybe 12-14 hours on a weekend hehe
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya working from home has ruined me
[11:13] Melanie Milland doesn't sleep
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: have the feeling JCC keeps a mirror in front of me.
[11:14] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: how so?
[11:14] Richardus Raymaker: i like a nap in the evening to, wel i need it
[11:14] Adam Frisby: so, anyone seen the video Rex put out of Naali in the last two days?
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: got a link?
[11:15] Adam Frisby:
[11:15] Pete Skysmith: i didn't
[11:15] Adam Frisby: Naali is looking really, really impressive.
[11:15] Adam Frisby: I'm glad they begun implementing a standard GUI & application workflow.
[11:16] Adam Frisby: It looks nice, and also looks like some parts have had some forethought gone into how they work; like the communications manager (although I'd still tweak it.)
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: looks nice
[11:16] Adam Frisby: The good news with Naali is it is apache 2, and they followed the same 'code taint' rules as opensim-core (6 months), so any opensim dev can safely work on it
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: Andy Naali looks like some kind of zombie
[11:17] Adam Frisby: downside is it's Qt/C++, so it does require a more intensive build toolchain for windows users.
[11:17] Adam Frisby: although Linux users should be at home./
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: does eclipse not solve the problem for windows ?
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey: it builds/works under linux?
[11:18] Melanie Milland: it does
[11:18] Adam Frisby: Yeah it runs under Windows, Linux & mac
[11:18] Melanie Milland: still a couple of hiccups with keyboard input
[11:18] Melanie Milland: last time i checked
[11:18] Melanie Milland: but that is actively worked on
[11:18] Adam Frisby: Richardus: Qt requires a special precompiler called 'moc' (I think that is the right one)
[11:18] Adam Frisby: which has to be integrated into your build chain with visual studio et al.
[11:18] Melanie Milland: adam, that's part of the qt toolchain, yes
[11:19] Melanie Milland: qmake will create a VS makefile
[11:19] Melanie Milland: that you can import
[11:19] Adam Frisby: Great, I want to take a crack at the Naali code when the other half dozen things on my plate are off it.
[11:19] Melanie Milland: or just do an nmake build
[11:19] Adam Frisby: So yeah; soon there wont be much of an excuse behind "well we cant touch the viewer"
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: hehe wont that be nice
[11:20] Adam Frisby: No kidding.
[11:20] OtakuMegane Desu: We need something different anyway. There seems to only be so much you can do with the current engine.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ya the trick is not loosing any of the current stuff too though
[11:20] Snoopy Pfeffer: is LL also working on 3d meshes for avatars and objects?
[11:20] Adam Frisby: The current SL engine is opaque to us; we cant edit it -- which means feature extensions are crippled.
[11:20] Hiro Protagonist: it'll be nice to just not have to hear viewer devs complain about that anymore
[11:21] Adam Frisby: Snoopy: yes/no.
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: as long as the trade off is not too high
[11:21] Adam Frisby: LL said they still are working on it; but who knows when it will be shown to the public.
[11:21] Hiro Protagonist: honestly, I dont think it matters as much as it is widely held to
[11:21] Adam Frisby: Given they are busy working on "SL2" which has priority, might be a while.
[11:21] Snoopy Pfeffer: ok
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: personally I dont think LL mesh support will look all that much differnt than their sculpty support either
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: i think its going to fall short of everyones expectations of what mesh can be
[11:21] Adam Frisby: I suspect LL mesh import will be 1998-era meshes
[11:21] OtakuMegane Desu: SL2? Great
[11:22] Adam Frisby: No shaders, no material scripts.
[11:22] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh oh
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:22] Adam Frisby: Just very simple diffuse-mapped meshes.
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: its going to be sculpty 2.0
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: a viewer that can be adapted / have new extensions would be nice. then its easyer to fix bugs to.
[11:22] Adam Frisby: Certainly nothing with say mesh animation.
[11:22] Adam Frisby: deformability, shaders or anything fancy
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: atleast initially
[11:22] Melanie Milland: tbh, i don't see the existing hardware handle that
[11:23] Melanie Milland: not at the density of SL
[11:23] Snoopy Pfeffer: can the realxtend meshes be supported by standard opensim in the future - I mean like on some regions in osgrid?
[11:23] Melanie Milland: and density = money
[11:23] Adam Frisby: Melanie: well with meshes you need less objects to represent the same sscene.
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: ya thats why its going to basiclly be nothing more than Sculpty 2.0
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: it will be more efficient than sculpt cause the files should be smaller
[11:23] Adam Frisby: Prims are artificially dense --- notice how prim counts on average dropped when sculpties came out.
[11:23] Nebadon Izumi: easier to transport
[11:23] Adam Frisby: It'll be the same thing.
[11:23] Adam Frisby: Megaprims help the situation immensely too
[11:23] Melanie Milland: i mean sim density per cpu
[11:23] Adam Frisby: LBSA plaza is only like 680 prims
[11:23] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah
[11:23] Snoopy Pfeffer: meshes are not worse than many linked prims
[11:24] UUID Speaker: yukio chun: ea7aed24-6c49-6474-f519-bdb906a1fe77
[11:24] Melanie Milland: of they would do deformable meshes
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: well you will have to make things phantom
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: thats all
[11:24] OtakuMegane Desu: But LL makes a lot of their money off land, and one of the best tools to keep people buying more is the prim count
[11:24] Melanie Milland: the physics of it would mean 1 server = 1 sim
[11:24] Adam Frisby: Deformable meshes would be clientside I imagine
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt they are going to mesh it proper anyway
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: want to bet money their meshes colide as primitive shape?
[11:24] Adam Frisby: No real practical way to do network transmission of that at the current point in time.
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: only a good simple userfriendly sculpt tool is missing
[11:24] Adam Frisby: Neb: or are phantom
[11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol
[11:24] Snoopy Pfeffer: that would be bad
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: oh it will be that way
[11:24] Melanie Milland: it'll look shiny
[11:24] Nebadon Izumi: i have no doubt
[11:25] Melanie Milland: but be functionally lacking
[11:25] Melanie Milland: like all they do
[11:25] Adam Frisby: I'm more interested in the new global illumination model coming with meshes.
[11:25] Adam Frisby: That is much more interesting to me.
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: ya windlight is cool
[11:25] Adam Frisby: Of course, Naali has that now I think.
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: but its highly unrealistic in terms of lighting
[11:25] Snoopy Pfeffer: Naali has windlight?
[11:25] Adam Frisby: Nah, global illumination, or something similar.
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: Ogre has a windlight alternative
[11:25] Adam Frisby: Caelum
[11:26] Adam Frisby:
[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Windlight always seemed fine to me, though a bit crude on some points.
[11:26] Snoopy Pfeffer: do they have voice as replacable module?
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not bad
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its just not realistic
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: at all
[11:26] Adam Frisby: But no, I mean global illumination as in ambient occlusion, etc.
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: its very video gameish
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: nintendo type lighting
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, light going through walls is probably the biggest problem lol
[11:26] Adam Frisby: Otaku: that is what global illumination fixes
[11:26] OtakuMegane Desu: I figured
[11:26] Adam Frisby: It's a very significant change
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: ya the biggest problem for LL though is like melanie_T said
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 70% of their population still having crap hardware
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: that can barely play anything modern
[11:27] Adam Frisby: yup
[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: that looks kinda wicked
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: its like XP era hardware
[11:27] Nebadon Izumi: 2001'ish
[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: :)
[11:28] OtakuMegane Desu: Well it wouldn't be so bad if the viewer made better use of resources :/
[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: I had a look at the latest version of the 3Di OpenViewer
[11:28] Adam Frisby: The SL viewer cannot be critiqued on performance honestly
[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: that can be integrated in a web page
[11:28] Snoopy Pfeffer: that is even worse lol
[11:28] Adam Frisby: It throws so many polygons at the video card it is stunning
[11:28] Melanie Milland: efficient resource usage and multiplatform support are mutually exclusive
[11:28] Adam Frisby: Very simple polygons mind you -- nothing with shaders/etc to process
[11:28] Richardus Raymaker: i know some peolple that run SL on 5-7 year old hardware. and then the complain about problems with building and lag
[11:28] Adam Frisby: But the sheer quantity is impressive.
[11:28] Melanie Milland: since you cen' be efficient on wondows without DX
[11:28] Nebadon Izumi: i dunno
[11:28] Melanie Milland: and that's unavailable anywhere else
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OpenGL is no worse on windows than linux
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: from my experience
[11:29] Adam Frisby: Neb; it is more than DX > OpenGL
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: not in video game land
[11:29] Melanie Milland: yes, but DX outperforms OGL on windows
[11:29] Adam Frisby: OGL is dead.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: ah ya
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt about that
[11:29] Melanie Milland: coding to DX means windows-only
[11:29] Richardus Raymaker: and now ? openDX ?
[11:29] Adam Frisby: Richardus: good luck.
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: OGL is too driver dependant
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: thas the problem
[11:29] Nebadon Izumi: its too dependant on hardware makers
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: to keep it updated
[11:30] Adam Frisby: Honestly, OpenGL is terrible - but there is no alternatives outside of Windows.
[11:30] Richardus Raymaker: yes
[11:30] Adam Frisby: Not just dependent on hardware makers to keep it up to date -- but also to support each others extensions.
[11:30] Melanie Milland: and as for hardware
[11:30] Melanie Milland: you can't expect gamer hardware
[11:30] Adam Frisby: which results in a mess of half-ass features that break depending on video card
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: ya its like putting prison gaurds in charge of the prison
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:30] Melanie Milland: not for something billed to be the Next Internet
[11:30] Adam Frisby: it's not just between manufacturers, but even individual cards.
[11:30] Nebadon Izumi: getting them to agree on extension support
[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: Idk Melanie_T
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: sorry putting prsisoners in charge of gaurding prson i mean
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: dont work
[11:31] Melanie Milland: so whatever is done needs to run on the standard "utility PC"
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: it wasnt that long agon most PCs didnt ship with eth connections
[11:31] Melanie Milland: and with the credit crunch biting deep
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: what is the Alternative to cross platform support though?
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: besides OGL?
[11:31] Melanie Milland: pcs are used 5+ years
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: is there anything?
[11:31] Adam Frisby: Neb: none.
[11:31] Adam Frisby: OGL is it.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: ya i didnt think so
[11:31] Hiro Protagonist: Darkness.
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: 2D?
[11:31] Adam Frisby: You could probably write a software rasterizer. ;)
[11:32] Adam Frisby: but that'd likely suck.
[11:32] Snoopy Pfeffer: the performance of graphics cards should increase dramatically this year if the Nvideo CEO is right
[11:32] Adam Frisby: There is some hope re: hardware specs.
[11:32] Adam Frisby: Intel integrated chipsets no longer suck as much as they used to
[11:32] OtakuMegane Desu: But the viewer isn't even using all the power higher-end stuff has now
[11:32] Adam Frisby: they are at least on-par with the lowest nvidia/ati offerings.
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: Intel has dropped integration
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: aargh, then i have my card buyed to early. but new cards are anyway to expensive
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: they threw in the towel
[11:32] Adam Frisby: They arent doing video at all anymore?
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: in favor of Nvidia
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: nope
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: otaku, in dense SL area im still stuck with 25 fps or lower
[11:32] Adam Frisby: Well that is good to hear
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: they bagged the project
[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah
[11:33] Adam Frisby: That means we're at least dealing with low-end nV/ATI which isnt terrible.
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: here i get now 22fps
[11:33] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm even worse lol
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think Nvidia put up to much a stink
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: threatened to partner with Via
[11:33] Adam Frisby: I'm getting 13, but that is at 2560x1920 with 8xFSAA
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: and stop alll support for Intel
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: i think intel caved
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: almost full hd here
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: no filtering sofar i know
[11:33] Snoopy Pfeffer: wow so low?
[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: But I have 1/3-1/2 CPU idle even now and FSAA/ani doesn't even touch fps so the GPU isn't even remotely strained otherwise. So wtf
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: ya im getting about 15fps here right now
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: in 1920x1080
[11:34] Snoopy Pfeffer: 10 fps for me hehe
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: i seem to get low FPS when sitting though
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: dont run it in ultra snoopy. its a frame killer
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: if i got up and started moving id get 20-30fps
[11:34] OtakuMegane Desu: 4 fps lol but it's 1920x1440 with like 384 draw distance and all the goodies on.
[11:34] Richardus Raymaker: my cpu is doing almost nothing
[11:34] Hiro Protagonist: same here Otak
[11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: it runs on my slow windows laptop
[11:35] Snoopy Pfeffer: my linux server is much better
[11:35] OtakuMegane Desu: And ATI doesn't work right with VBO in the viewer so that doesn't help
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: i run amd cpu
[11:35] Hiro Protagonist: actually my draw and everything else is maxed out
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: wow
[11:35] UUID Speaker: Frodo Diesel: cc9fe498-3369-1952-53d9-19cf2ce80e97
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i try to stay around 20fps, else its terrible with movememnt
[11:36] OtakuMegane Desu: I have PCIe 2.0 and a bunch of idle CPU time so I can't see it being an issue of bottlenecks getting stuff to GPU. Not in hardware at least.
[11:36] Snoopy Pfeffer: what is the status of the ongoing opensim refactoring?
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: i think its just sl viewer that give lower framerate
[11:36] Adam Frisby: I think the current refactoring is near done isnt it?
[11:36] Adam Frisby: the ROBUST stuff anyway?
[11:36] Hiro Protagonist: Oooh good question
[11:37] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie_T?
[11:37] Snoopy Pfeffer: I think many wait for it to be finished
[11:37] OtakuMegane Desu: The viewer just isn't that efficient. Mch better than in the past, but not what it could be. *shrug*
[11:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: you would be supprised OtakuMegane, my previous CPU ran at about 50% and i got a lot less FPS, i recently upgraded CPU and it still runs at about 50% but i get lots more FPS
[11:37] Snoopy Pfeffer: it would be good if all could continue to develop full speed forward :)
[11:38] Melanie Milland: it's very close
[11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think the viewer could be throttling CPU to stop it consuming 100%
[11:38] Melanie Milland: i have to reimplement friends
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: i wait with opensik upgrade , until there's a good version again ^^ :)
[11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: great Melanie :)
[11:38] Melanie Milland: and come up with a sane migration path for users
[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: But I want to to use the resources it has. :/
[11:38] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol
[11:38] Melanie Milland: now i have a few days here
[11:38] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes that is something many will like Melanie :)
[11:38] Hiro Protagonist: that latter one is probably the bigger challenge Mel
[11:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: it would be nice to have the choice :)
[11:38] Melanie Milland: before heading for London and the meetup
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: uhg ya the thought of this upcoming migration gives me the willies
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:39] Melanie Milland: on Sunday
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: are there big bumps to expect when we have a new upgrade ?
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: im sure it will go well
[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: I'm just gonna toss this out for an idea
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: but the database landscape is going to change dramaticly
[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Oh boy, upgrade again
[11:39] Hiro Protagonist: we should run two grids, at least for a little while
[11:39] Melanie Milland: this upgrade will be raw and wild
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: mellanie: Oh, I didn't know you were coming
[11:39] Adam Frisby: Yeah
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: so, OAR's required !
[11:39] Adam Frisby: This is going to be a major upgrade
[11:39] Melanie Milland: it's a rocky one
[11:39] Adam Frisby: ala 0.3->0.4
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: well dont worry everyone
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: our backup system is in place
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: put a box with hardhat's on lbsa nebadon
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: nothing will be lost
[11:39] Melanie Milland: and it will require manual cleanup
[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: Got a summary of what it's bringing, exactly?
[11:39] Snoopy Pfeffer: oh really?
[11:39] OtakuMegane Desu: I haven't been keeping up very well
[11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: only of grids or also of regions?
[11:40] Melanie Milland: we are finally replacing the counterintuitive tables
[11:40] Snoopy Pfeffer: at region level no manual work should be required
[11:40] Hiro Protagonist: architectural sanity at minimum Otaku
[11:40] Melanie Milland: users, appearance, friends, presence
[11:40] Melanie Milland: we're trying to make migrations
[11:40] Melanie Milland: but after verifying the conversion
[11:40] Melanie Milland: one might want to drop the old tables
[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes sure
[11:41] Melanie Milland: we will not be doing that automatically
[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Ah
[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: ah ok there will be an additional manual cleanup script?
[11:41] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, having the tables make a bit more sense would help lol
[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: to run that a bit later?
[11:41] Melanie Milland: no
[11:41] Melanie Milland: it'll be each admin for themselves
[11:41] Melanie Milland: we can't make your choices
[11:41] Snoopy Pfeffer: sure
[11:42] Snoopy Pfeffer: well a script could also ask questions
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: melanie you talk about region databases or user grid ones ?
[11:42] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.6.9 (Dev) 7467a47: 2010-01-11 22:52:05 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: .
[11:42] Melanie Milland: URM
[11:42] Melanie Milland: well, it will also affect regions
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: dont use URM sofar i know
[11:42] Melanie Milland: if they're standalone/serverless
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: savest way is make backup from mysql + oar wipe region databases upgrade opensim and import oar back
[11:43] Melanie Milland: NO
[11:43] Melanie Milland: you WILL lose data if you do
[11:43] Melanie Milland: OAR is NOT complete
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: then good to warn for that to other users
[11:43] Justin Clark-Casey: in what way?
[11:44] Snoopy Pfeffer: I always use mysql backups
[11:44] Adelle Fitzgerald: the upgrade will make old OARs incompatible?
[11:44] Melanie Milland: OAR includes no script state, and omits some prim properties
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: best to have mysql + oar backup
[11:44] OtakuMegane Desu: Between oar and mysql dump it should grab everything that can be.
[11:44] Adam Frisby: ack
[11:44] Adam Frisby: back
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I believ script state does get in there, and it doesn't omit prim properties
[11:44] Hiro Protagonist: wb
[11:44] Justin Clark-Casey: if it's serialized to inventory then it's also serialized in the oar
[11:45] Melanie Milland: justin, there are some properties that have been added since OAR was defined
[11:45] Melanie Milland: they are not part of inventory serialization
[11:45] Melanie Milland: so their inworld values are lost
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: like what?
[11:45] Melanie Milland: i'd have to read the code
[11:45] Snoopy Pfeffer: will anybody update OAR based on the new properties?
[11:45] Melanie Milland: but i know some went in recently
[11:45] Justin Clark-Casey: and there are XmlIgnore?
[11:45] Melanie Milland: we don't update the inventory serialization format often
[11:45] Melanie Milland: justin: Yes
[11:46] Melanie Milland: so, OAR has to be considered slightly lossy
[11:46] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, I guess that is something of a hole
[11:46] Melanie Milland: and can be used if it's ramifications are clear
[11:46] Hiro Protagonist: I guess inventory is similarly lossy?
[11:46] Melanie Milland: but SHOULD NOT be used as the primary vehicle for migrating between versions
[11:46] Snoopy Pfeffer: that should be communicated on the web portal - because users have different expectations
[11:47] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: is diva going to write migration instructions for the changes needed when presence-refactor is merged in?
[11:47] Melanie Milland: hiro: yes
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: users will use AOR for transfer between versions
[11:47] Melanie Milland: richardus: why should they?
[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: Melanie_T: Inventory proper or just IAR>
[11:47] Hiro Protagonist: ?
[11:47] Melanie Milland: we are providing migrations
[11:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have never used OARs when updating simulators
[11:47] Melanie Milland: so people should NOT use OAR except to make backups in case migration fails
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, normal practice is to rely on the migrations, not to save our oars (or iars)
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: which dont' capture anything anyway
[11:48] Melanie Milland: your recommendation of OAR, wipe, reload is plain wrong
[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: i use them rarly. but some only know oar and i hope how to move the sqlite. mysql is still better choice
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: if the migrations prove non-viable the people with pitchforks will be around
[11:49] Richardus Raymaker: i trust my mysql databases melanie
[11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: anyone attemtping a major update/migration should backup their entire simulator anyway, the binary and DB
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: certainly the db - you would be crazy not too
[11:49] Melanie Milland: correct
[11:49] Orion Hax: live on the edge and just go for it
[11:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: JCC, there are a lot of crazy people ;)
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: lmao
[11:50] Richardus Raymaker: but it happend in the past that the did not mkade enough backups or lost the db and used the oar.
[11:50] Melanie Milland: the procedure is backup - upgrade - verify
[11:50] Melanie Milland: not save - wipe - load
[11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes simply write that in the update instructions
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: whynot Mel :3
[11:50] Snoopy Pfeffer: it's stupid to not make backups
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah - if we clealy advertise before hand then they'v egot no excuse to get too het up
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: yeah
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: doesnt stop people tho
[11:51] Snoopy Pfeffer: then it is their fault ;)
[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: No, but if they were warned and instructed...
[11:51] OtakuMegane Desu: Lol
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: just warn people, dont trust oar as only backup. and dont use it for migrations
[11:51] Hiro Protagonist: and that doesnt stop them complaining when it goees sour
[11:51] Adam Frisby: Yeah; if you are running backup routines; it is strongly recommended to just do a SQL dump
[11:51] Adam Frisby: If you have a SQL dump, that is guarunteed to be what OpenSim knows about your sim.
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, just doing the database is by far the easiest thing
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: I wouldn't do OARs myself
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: yes
[11:51] Mic Bowman: what about backing up script states?
[11:51] Adam Frisby: Hey Mic
[11:52] Mic Bowman: that has killed us several times
[11:52] OtakuMegane Desu: For region stuff I just dump DB. When grid/asset stuff I do OAR/IAR as well
[11:52] Adam Frisby: I think those are in a seperate directory now?
[11:52] Hiro Protagonist: Hiya Mic, wb
[11:52] Adam Frisby: Melanie should know
[11:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: take a copy of the entire Bin folder, along with the DB backup, and you ahve evrything you need for a fast rollback
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: backing up script states just a matter of moving the scriptengines folder?
[11:52] Mic Bowman: "fast" is relative
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: i always install fresh opensim. also to have a quick fallback
[11:53] Hiro Protagonist: heh
[11:53] Melanie Milland: the script states are in ScriptEngines/<region id>/*.state
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: heh I imagine Intel "fast" is really fast
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe
[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i bet they all stand around and complain 'darn this is really slow' :P
[11:53] Hiro Protagonist: unless you're launch omfg number of regions and going out for golf while it starts up :p
[11:53] Mic Bowman: hey
[11:53] Adelle Fitzgerald: :P
[11:53] Mic Bowman: i resemble that remark
[11:54] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:54] Hiro Protagonist: LOL
[11:54] Melanie Milland: however, backing up the state files is not a suitable archival method for OAR, justin
[11:54] Mic Bowman: yes... you really CAN run 1024 regions in one simulator
[11:54] Melanie Milland: if that is what you do, you should revise it
[11:54] Mic Bowman: i just don't recommend it
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: i never moved/backup the state files. maby i use scripts where it dont matter
[11:54] Snoopy Pfeffer: will it be necessary that regions have a certain interface version to be allowed to reconnect to the grid?
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: mleanie: It's probably done by accident. Why do you not recommend it, exactly?
[11:54] Melanie Milland: there is a Method on IScriptModule to obtain the dump
[11:54] Melanie Milland: it should be used
[11:54] Hiro Protagonist: that was pretty freaking amazing to read
[11:54] Melanie Milland: there is another method to put the data thus obtained back in place
[11:55] Adam Frisby: Mic: actually you can run more.
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: alright. Clearly this needs work - especially if people are starting to document the shitty internal serializtions being used
[11:55] Melanie Milland: it should not be done on the file system because the file system location may change between revisions, or installs
[11:55] Adam Frisby: Mic: I got 8100 sims on a single machine in '08.
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: do you know what these methods are called?
[11:55] Adam Frisby: Using 32GB of memory & Win2K3 Server
[11:55] Snoopy Pfeffer: lol
[11:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: there have only ever been two scenarios I would use OAR for, backing up actual assets in case of loss on the asset server, or cloning a region
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: heh that was standalone though right?
[11:55] Mic Bowman: adam.. with ODE and Xengine etc... BAD deadlocks
[11:55] Adam Frisby: Yeah that was standalone
[11:55] Mic Bowman: no
[11:55] Mic Bowman: in scisim
[11:55] Nebadon Izumi: i think 1024 is the record for grid mode
[11:55] Melanie Milland: justin: GetXMLState(), SetXMLState()
[11:56] Mic Bowman: that's where it was running
[11:56] Snoopy Pfeffer: well we can increase the osgrid ranking by running such servers with thousands of regions ;)
[11:56] Melanie Milland: both on IScriptModule
[11:56] Justin Clark-Casey: melanie: thx
[11:56] Melanie Milland: you need the itemID to call
[11:56] OtakuMegane Desu: I'm only on ~150 regions total, and that's across 6 instances, mostly for convenience though.
[11:56] Melanie Milland: get returns a string, set takes one
[11:56] Mic Bowman: 1024 regions... but every users gets a 10x10 region view
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: just a 64x64 mea region for fly sail and drive :))
[11:56] Mic Bowman: and that's what's killing the sims
[11:57] Mic Bowman: megaregions have some big problems with borders
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya child agents are going to be a major problem in megas that large
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:57] Melanie Milland: you mean with Borders
[11:57] Melanie Milland: :)
[11:57] Richardus Raymaker: im happy it runs fine for now on my server with 4 regions
[11:57] Mic Bowman: the neighbors computation is not really designed to have megaregion to megaregion exchanges
[11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw I see ghost agents in the air in the middle of regions more often again
[11:57] OtakuMegane Desu: Megaregions will be worked out eventually. They are still in very early stages really
[11:57] Mic Bowman: can't go south or west across borders well
[11:57] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you also experience that?
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy, i see that for a long time on astro
[11:58] Melanie Milland: i've seen them, too
[11:58] Snoopy Pfeffer: it got worse since some weeks
[11:58] Melanie Milland: especially in OSG
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya i imagine that depends on how busy your neighbors regions are
[11:58] Mic Bowman: we are currently just giving out a 10x10 grid of regions centered at the current agent
[11:58] Melanie Milland: i don't know what makes child agents visible
[11:58] Melanie Milland: but it should be looked into
[11:58] Richardus Raymaker: i have snoopy as neighborn, so it pretty busy :D
[11:58] Mic Bowman: that gives the long view without (as many of ) the border problems
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: my movie theatre one day had like a dozen of the beastly looking NPC creatures
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: all frozen in T poses
[11:59] Snoopy Pfeffer: I see the ghosts moving arms and legs
[11:59] Snoopy Pfeffer: depending on the animation
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: thats about the only anomoly ive seen with ghosty type avatars myself
[11:59] Richardus Raymaker: my ghosts move heads and some other parts to
[12:00] Snoopy Pfeffer: there is still a problem with autoreturn and returning objects using the About Land window
[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: these objects reappear afte each region restart
[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: that dont work for me snoopy
[12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: They do?
[12:01] Mic Bowman: sorry to drop in and leave... just wanted to re-iterate something i said on the dev list earlier... it really is amazing how far opensim has come recently
[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: and autoreturn even creates ghost prims
[12:01] Mic Bowman: great work everyone!!!!
[12:01] Richardus Raymaker: yes, have seen that problem to, im told it is fixt after the big redesign
[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes
[12:01] OtakuMegane Desu: I never seem to have issues with return/auto
[12:01] Adam Frisby: Mic: yeah, last 6 months, stability has really skyrocketed.
[12:01] Hiro Protagonist: thanks Mic :)
[12:01] Snoopy Pfeffer: my unpacking area is full of invisible nonexistent prims that block movements after a while
[12:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: Mic, is the mega mega region still running?
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: :) ya its amazing how far things have come
[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: on behalf of those who actually did the work
[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bah, missed him
[12:02] Adam Frisby: We just updated our simhost demo region yesterday; the first time since October - total restarts between upgrade: 0.
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: auto return seems to work fine. but return all object from 1 owner , after restart the where back
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: I've returned thousands at once with little trouble.
[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: heh yeah
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: They go away and stay away
[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: Kohala had incredible stability
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I need to go too - bye everyone
[12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: really Otaku?
[12:02] Hiro Protagonist: bye Justin
[12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use Flotsam?
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: bye JCC
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I stress test with phys and various stuff from time to time
[12:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: bye Justin
[12:02] Snoopy Pfeffer: bye Justin
[12:02] OtakuMegane Desu: And yeah, flotsam
[12:02] Nebadon Izumi: see you justin, thanks for coming :)
[12:03] Melanie Milland: snoopy: asset cche is not relevant to this
[12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: very strange
[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have manually returned about 14,500 prims
[12:03] Melanie Milland: return happens in the background
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: When I watch console, the return time does take a while though.
[12:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: it took a while but did it
[12:03] Melanie Milland: you need to give the sim time to do it
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Maybe it's a speed/incomplete issue?
[12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: do you use a 64 bit server?
[12:03] Melanie Milland: if you return all objects for one user
[12:03] Melanie Milland: and then restart
[12:03] Richardus Raymaker: i run 32bit server
[12:03] Melanie Milland: that background processing will not yet have happened
[12:03] OtakuMegane Desu: Nope, 32. Don't get enough mem use to do 64 yet
[12:03] Snoopy Pfeffer: well it did the autoreturn hours before
[12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: maybe it is a 64 bit problem
[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: When I do thousands it can take 5-10 minutes in some cases to return all of them
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: snoopy, i have seen on my region return problem with object from a user
[12:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have noticed objects sometimes just re-appearing, just after a regular delete
[12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: looks like that backgroud process does not succeed on my regions
[12:04] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah
[12:04] Snoopy Pfeffer: btw it is the same on my 32 bit servers
[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: can you return all objects of a certain user?
[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: using the about land window?
[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: these objects also come back
[12:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: i have done on the OSgrid sandboxes a few times
[12:05] OtakuMegane Desu: Yeah. I've done all the return methods, and they work.
[12:05] Snoopy Pfeffer: strange
[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: they rarely come back, unless the region is restarted fairly soon after the return
[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Well, now. Way back they had issues of course lol
[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I really have hours between the return and the restart
[12:06] OtakuMegane Desu: Hmm
[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: but sometimes when I just delete objects from my own regions, it could be 3 or 4 days before a restart, and the odd object will return
[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: even days!
[12:06] Melanie Milland: snoopy: if you think there is an error, be sure you have tested with master/trunk
[12:06] Melanie Milland: NOT with a numbered release
[12:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: its like they arent being purged from the database properly or something
[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yes
[12:06] Snoopy Pfeffer: yep
[12:07] Melanie Milland: the last release we did was a while ago, as far as the codebase goes
[12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: Have you watched console while return is happening?
[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well I have this problem since 1 years already!
[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: not that closely
[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: it it was always the same
[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: its a rare occurance on my own regions, so i havent really bothered
[12:07] Hiro Protagonist: time for me to hit the virtual bricks y
[12:07] Hiro Protagonist: 'aal
[12:07] Melanie Milland: snoopy: if you use a release, e.g. 0.6.8, expect issues
[12:07] OtakuMegane Desu: It spits out a line for every object then tells you when it's finished. Good for seeing if the process is disrupted
[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: well for me it always fails
[12:07] Adelle Fitzgerald: catch ya soon hiro :)
[12:07] Snoopy Pfeffer: no no
[12:08] Hiro Protagonist: catch ya next time :)
[12:08] Snoopy Pfeffer: I use trunk

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