Chat log from the meeting on 2009-03-31

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Tuesday Meeting @ Wright Plaza on OSGrid

[09:26] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSimulator Server (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False
[09:48] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[09:48] Charles Krinke: Morning
[09:48] Nebadon Izumi: doh looks like were missing a cusion
[09:48] Nebadon Izumi: maybe its just me
[09:48] Charles Krinke: I think I just fubarred a cushion on the couch
[09:48] Nebadon Izumi: is there a cushion missing next to you?
[09:48] Nebadon Izumi: oh
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol no worries
[09:49] Compile successful
[09:49] Charles Krinke: I was trying to sit and inadvertently clicked "take"
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: cause your estate manager you can
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[09:49] Charles Krinke: Guess that makes me a griefer, today
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: ive done it on accident myself
[09:49] Nebadon Izumi: accidently took something in the sandbox once
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: i didnt mean to take
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: i couldnt fix it
[09:50] Charles Krinke: Sorry about the wind patch last night, I didnt expect so much confusion
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: i felt bad
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: oh no worries
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: i just saw someone reported it
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: was trying to ping you
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: wasnt a big deal
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: they actually fixed it
[09:50] Charles Krinke: I thought I was playing it real cool and nurturing mcortez along <sigh>
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: by disabling wind in opensim.ini
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: which i see diva has done in trunk
[09:50] Nebadon Izumi: it was nothing you or mcortez did
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: it was Jhurlimans libomb update
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: libomv
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: diva said she cant fix it until she speaks with him
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: so for now she disabled wind by default
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: until its resolved
[09:51] Charles Krinke: Well, it could argued that patches need more testing before commit. Sometimes I guess right, sometimes not.
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: ya it likely might have worked
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: then jhurlimans patch would have broken it
[09:51] Nebadon Izumi: inadvertinly
[09:52] Nebadon Izumi: so these things happen, not a big deal ultimatly
[09:52] Nebadon Izumi: its gonna break from time to time
[09:52] Charles Krinke: I tend to take the position that moving us along even at the risk of breakage is better then stagnation of patches.
[09:52] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[09:52] Nebadon Izumi: it was very minor
[09:52] Nebadon Izumi: really
[09:52] Charles Krinke: But, I also admit that as time goes on, this position needs to become more conservative.
[09:53] Bri Hasp is Online
[09:53] Charles Krinke: Anyway,... I came a little early so I could watch the graphs over my shoulder.
[09:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[09:53] Nebadon Izumi: i always get here a little early to evaluate the sims stability
[09:53] Nebadon Izumi: do some cleaning
[09:53] Charles Krinke: good point.
[09:53] Nebadon Izumi: feels pretty good today
[09:54] Mystical Brotherhood: that's nice system up there
[09:54] Bri Hasp is Offline
[09:54] Charles Krinke: I havent heard rom Adam other then to read his one or two posts on opensim-dev mailing list, by the way.
[09:54] Nebadon Izumi: ya me either
[09:54] Nebadon Izumi: bit disapointing no response
[09:54] Nebadon Izumi: but we'll see
[09:54] Nebadon Izumi: sure he is busy
[09:55] Charles Krinke: Morning, Mystical
[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: hello
[09:55] Mystical Brotherhood: Afternoon Charles
[09:55] Charles Krinke: Nebadon: if you or others need to evolve this plaza and remove or delete the treehouse or scriptwerks, I will not stand in the way
[09:55] Richardus Raymaker: someone some idea why i have problems with latest svn's to let it run fine
[09:55] Nebadon Izumi: k i thought about erasing scriptworks a few times
[09:55] Nebadon Izumi: but ive just trimmed it down a bit
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: some of his scripts were abit harsh at times
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: but i left what wasnt effecting the sim
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: we should probably rebuild it though
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: something more up to date
[09:56] Richardus Raymaker: again. i did today. its 8943
[09:56] Charles Krinke: Richardus, the wind and the libomv patch last night are a bit "worrisome" today
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: the treehouse is more landmark than anything
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[09:56] Richardus Raymaker: thats the problem 8810 works betetr then everything above
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: it is kinda ugly though
[09:56] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: ya richardus we'll have times where updating stops
[09:57] Charles Krinke: If possible, it might be nice if the treehouse ended up as an object in an inventory that I could put on a different sim, maybe
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: while dev breaks everything for a week or 2
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: then back to normal
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: especially whenever libomv is updated
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: expcet 2 weeks of breakage
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: easily
[09:57] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty standard procedure at this point
[09:57] Charles Krinke: Richardus. Libomv is the former libsecondlife. All our packet handling goes through it and a different team maintains it
[09:58] BlueWall Slade is Online
[09:58] Richardus Raymaker: so back to 8810 ? or thes a new version thats ok ?
[09:58] Richardus Raymaker: hi charles
[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say
[09:58] Nebadon Izumi: ive not done much updating last few days
[09:59] Nebadon Izumi: i was focusing on getting oars
[09:59] Nebadon Izumi: of all the plazas and my own regions
[09:59] Richardus Raymaker: here double hard, i fixt for now my isp problem. but cant say it 100% ok. and the sttill have not fixt it
[09:59] Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[10:00] Justin Clark-Casey: hello folks
[10:00] BlueWall Slade: Hello
[10:00] Charles Krinke: Morning, Justin. I hope in the fall, we can figure out the time changes to avoid a double dance if possible.
[10:00] Ideia Boa: hej all
[10:00] Nebadon Izumi: hello
[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: i definatly like having the meetings at 11am
[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:01] Nebadon Izumi: this should work out pretty good i hope for everyone
[10:01] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, hopefully the confusion is over until Autumn, as Charles says
[10:01] Charles Krinke: Maybe change back to 1900UTC in concert with the UK instead o f the US, or something
[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: how late is that ?
[10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: we changed in concert with the uk this time
[10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: at the momnet it's 1900 British Summer Time here (which is 1800 UTC)
[10:02] Charles Krinke: Yeah, I was trying to get us used to working everything on UTC and ignore daylkylight savings time, but it is not goiong over very well.
[10:02] Richardus Raymaker: its her 20:00
[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: ya well i think we survived another flipping of the poles for now
[10:02] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:03] Ideia Boa: here 20:02
[10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: well, it was triggered by my personal problem with actually getting to a meeting at 2000 BST
[10:03] Charles Krinke: yep, thats abou tit.
[10:04] Charles Krinke: Ok, normal agenda is 1) "recommended" for the week, 2) Things core developers need to say and ask, then 3) things testers and users need to say and ask
[10:05] Charles Krinke: We might wish to slip in a fourth item, whihc might be, any special announcements
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: oh justin something i wanted to mention to you
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: i think the oar freezing
[10:05] Richardus Raymaker: it seems the linked copy phantom bug is back.. if you link say 3 prims and then copy it. on the mast set the child prims get phantom. unlink it and it ok
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: is if i start a save oar while its still meshing
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: then it freezes
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: have to wait 4-5 minutes
[10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: interesting
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: after startup
[10:05] Nebadon Izumi: then its fine
[10:06] Richardus Raymaker: but, would be nice to know if there's a betetr version then 8810
[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: is it now possible to execute commands while things ar estill loading up (apart from scripts?)
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: yes
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: meshing
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: for 1
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: not sure about anything else
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: i can tell when CPU drops to 0
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: meshing is done
[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: right, I didn't think that used to be possible before the console changes
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: only way to tell
[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: oh ok.... I thought meshing was done early on in startup though
[10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: before, for instance, script loading
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: depends
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: on the complexity
[10:06] Nebadon Izumi: 15000 prims
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: takes loong time to mesh
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: 100 prims takes seconds
[10:07] Charles Krinke: Justin. You might want to glance at the screens over my shoulder with memory usage now and then after the meeting. They are very interesting
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: i can provide you the wright plazas oar
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: its 310 meg
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: or teravus plaza at 475
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: if you need something heavy
[10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think I could even get that to load on my system. Those files are huge
[10:07] Nebadon Izumi: lol ya
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: you have access to the box
[10:08] Nebadon Izumi: feel free to kick a plaza when their empty
[10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, thanks
[10:09] Charles Krinke: Question: If an oar is loaded on a different region, are the permission and owner bits staying the same?
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: ckrinke: I see there are 3 mono instances on this sytem, one in debug
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: charles: yes
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: if you stay on the same grid yes
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: if the user doesnt exist
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: it defaults to region owner
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: i think
[10:09] Nebadon Izumi: right justin?
[10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: that's right
[10:09] Charles Krinke: Justin: Wright Plaza, Lbsa Plaza and Sandbox Plaza all run on this server
[10:10] BlueWall Slade: I think Sandbox Plaza is the one running with --debug
[10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm grappling with the creator issue in my head right now - it's actually very difficult to preserve that info within the architectyure
[10:11] Charles Krinke: I understand, Justin. It also ends up being a bit of political engineering
[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: indeed it does
[10:11] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: it's all terribly terrible complicated
[10:12] Charles Krinke: Certainly, we want to adhere to the dsires of various creators, but there are cases where all that is known is the creator UUID which might not be known on a given grid
[10:12] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. There are different ways in which to overcome this, but all are far from ideal
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: hmm, transfer the region uuid as owner ?
[10:13] BlueWall Slade: that would end up like tar files w/just the uid on a foreign system
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: to some extent it is trying to work out which is the least evil and for which problems are likely to go away in the future
[10:13] Richardus Raymaker: ugh, i mean the master avatar of the region
[10:13] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I'm looking at this issue because for iars I really want to preserve creator info, at least
[10:14] Charles Krinke: OSgrid has gone down the path of open source donations for many builds and scripts, which of course, side steps the issues that other grids face.
[10:14] Justin Clark-Casey: It's an issue with oars as well but since there such big units it hasn't become such an issue yet, I think
[10:14] Charles Krinke: Lets hope the "Nathez": doesnt dock next door
[10:15] Justin Clark-Casey: the Nathez?
[10:15] Richardus Raymaker: right chrinke
[10:15] Charles Krinke: Natchez is a well-known SL build that ended up on OpenLife and created a scandal a month or so ago
[10:16] Justin Clark-Casey: Oh right
[10:16] Charles Krinke: Ok, anyway... "recommended" ??
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: at this point for recommended version i say stay put 8849 if you want really stable
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: for now
[10:17] Charles Krinke: 8849? 8939?
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: until were past this libomv
[10:17] Justin Clark-Casey: have there been issues after the libomv upgrade?
[10:17] Charles Krinke: ok, 8849 is fine with me for another week for a stable "recommended"
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: i think until thats settles theres not much point in making a release
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: ya wind is not working
[10:17] Nebadon Izumi: it had to be disabled
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: diva says she cant fix it without speaking with jhurliman
[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, so that is a libomv problem rather than a general bug?
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: seems to be
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: according to diva
[10:18] Justin Clark-Casey: ah right. I see she is speaking to him right now on #opensim-dev ;)
[10:18] Charles Krinke: the libomv and the wind arrived at the same time and the issues are mushed together
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: oh very cool
[10:18] Nebadon Izumi: i had not noticed that
[10:18] Richardus Raymaker: teleport problems is because bugs to ?
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: not sure but likely
[10:19] Richardus Raymaker: hmm.. ok. then i need to step more back
[10:19] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to say but there are a enough bugs floating at this point to say lets not release anything right now


[10:25] Richardus Raymaker is Online
[10:26] Ideia Boa: here we are again.... :-)
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[10:26] Nebadon Izumi: sim crashed
[10:26] Dreamer Chen: !
[10:26] BlueWall Slade is Online
[10:26] Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[10:26] Charles Krinke is Offline
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: yay i got 1 shoe
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:27] Fly Man is Offline
[10:27] Justin Clark-Casey: still bald though
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: theres the other shoe
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: I see none
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: still no hair
[10:27] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:27] Charles Krinke is Online
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: now one
[10:27] BlueWall Slade: hehe
[10:27] Programmer Mohr: so much for drinking and flying...
[10:28] Charles Krinke: Whoa
[10:28] Justin Clark-Casey: wb Mr Krinke
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: yahooo
[10:28] Nebadon Izumi: hair
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: ok so
[10:29] Charles Krinke: Aside: I think we need to figure out how to get some non-plaza regions with significant traffic to gain more data on the memory leak/freeze issue.
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: where were we
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: i hadnt restarted teh plaza prior to the meeting
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: it was running for a while
[10:29] Nebadon Izumi: before meeting started
[10:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I was actually just about to ask what the situation is with Stefan's 0.6.4 release candidate branch
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: no doubt that lead to the early demise
[10:30] Tiffany Sicling: Dradis is using over 800MB now, and it's been up for 2 hours
[10:30] Charles Krinke: recent reliability?
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: some of my own regions were running for 8 days
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: before i restarted them yeterday
[10:30] Nebadon Izumi: but they dont see many visitors
[10:31] BlueWall Slade: anything around lbsa takes abeating from child agents
[10:31] Charles Krinke: My current idea is for OSGrid to setup our own version of "Mystery Science Theatre 3000" with old B-Movies on Friday or Saturday nights and encourage visitors on a non-plaza region
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I run some low traffic regions and they don't have a memory issue over time
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: hehe ya
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: Lbsa plaza nieghbors are masochists :P
[10:31] Tiffany Sicling: most of my traffic is seen as child from lbsa and other surrounding regions
[10:31] BlueWall Slade: it is a good place to test things
[10:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I personally think there is a genuine leak rather than a cache problem
[10:31] Nebadon Izumi: being its the fall back region it by far sees the most traffic of any region on this grid
[10:32] Justin Clark-Casey: but that's more a hunch than a known fact
[10:32] Charles Krinke: We need a "biiiig" drive-ini movie theatre to test video, traffic and vehicle physics, all at the same time
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: i could oar up OKC theatre
[10:32] Richardus Raymaker: get a scrapheap to then
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: for use on beefier hardware
[10:32] Tiffany Sicling: what's weird, is I have another region that doesn't get much traffic at all, was up for a day, was taking 1.2GB of RAM... with less than 30 prims on it.
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: my windows regions
[10:32] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSimulator Server (OS Fedora release 9 (Sulphur) Kernel \r on an \m) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False
[10:32] Nebadon Izumi: dont leak memory at all
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: Tiffany: that is very curious
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: even my 12000 prim 1050 script region
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: doesnt leak a single bit of ram
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: ever
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: but the plaza regions
[10:33] Justin Clark-Casey: nebadon: interesting. Would it be possible to run one of the leaking regions on windows rather than linux and see if that makes a difference?
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: omg
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: forget it
[10:33] Tiffany Sicling: the region is down, but it's name is Loudenville, Bluewall runs it
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: its traffic justin
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: my linux regions would run for weeks too
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: but you start packing on people it leaks
[10:33] Nebadon Izumi: most of my regions
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: im the only person who ever visits them
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: besides the ocasional explorer
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: so you don't have any high traffic windows regions?
[10:34] Tiffany Sicling sends her regions to the tire shop to fix the leaks
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: no one hangs out there long
[10:34] Fly Man is Online
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[10:34] Charles Krinke: How can we get an independent confirmation on a non-plaza regioin that helpps the devs move forward on this memory issue
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: Teravus and SeaPrior
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: are on windows 2003
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: they leak too
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: just like this region
[10:34] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, so it doesn't sound like a mono specific problem
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: i dont think its windows or .net or linux or mono
[10:34] Nebadon Izumi: it crosses all boundries
[10:35] Nebadon Izumi: big crack :)
[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[10:35] Tiffany Sicling: any help I can do, logs, memory stats, etc. on Dradis (suburb of Lbsa Plaza ) I can do, please let me know
[10:35] Justin Clark-Casey: Tiffany: I might ask you if I get any time to work on this, though unfortunatley that might not happen this week
[10:35] BlueWall Slade: Justin I have logs from ther etoo
[10:36] Nebadon Izumi: hello Fly Man
[10:36] BlueWall Slade: so just ask
[10:36] Fly Man: Hello :)
[10:36] Charles Krinke: Lets put a 'mall' on Justin's region and label it "next years black dress fashions preview" and then stand back to avoid being trampled.
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: Charles: maybe you could try running with one of the basic mono profilers again?
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha ha
[10:36] Tiffany Sicling: lol
[10:36] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, if I ran a high traffic region the problem would really be hitting me in the face :)
[10:36] Fly Man: Yeah, I like the bench already ...
[10:37] Fly Man: Everyone is doing Yoga ...
[10:37] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:37] Fly Man: So yeah, what a way to start ;)
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: there is actually a profiler called live-type which prints out class information stats every time the GC runs
[10:37] Justin Clark-Casey: which might reveal if there is some massive object inflation in the system
[10:38] paulie Flomar is Offline
[10:38] Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm not sure how well that would work with high traffic regions, it's probably something I would try if I were to set about seriously trying to debug the issue
[10:39] Justin Clark-Casey: that would actually be a good thing for a tester to try, though it would need a little bit of work to build the profiler
[10:39] Charles Krinke: Well, either "we" (OSGrid) have made a mistake in diagnosis, or other standalones and grids are about to hit memory walls also.
[10:40] Fly Man: Well, it depends what a wall would be
[10:40] Fly Man: There are some regions that I restart daily ...
[10:40] Fly Man: but I haven't experienced high memory
[10:40] Tiffany Sicling: I do know when swap file is touched... might as well reboot linux
[10:41] Charles Krinke: Well, this ossue just seems to be one that goes on and on and tends to be worrisome.
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya i might need to reboot this server actually
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: as well as the windows box
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: seems to help alot
[10:41] Justin Clark-Casey: perhaps it might be worth seeing if one of the other core devs can spend some time on it? Do you think this issue has much visibility outside this meeting?
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: making things stable for couple days anyway
[10:41] BlueWall Slade: yeah I find Mono 2.2 / 2.4 dies when you get into swap pretty good
[10:41] Tiffany Sicling: what's weird is, even after I kill all mono sessions, the memory is still being taken up by invisible something... I have to reboot to recover it
[10:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya your cache will
[10:42] Charles Krinke: Justin. I dont think so. I think the perception is that we are potentially making a bigger deal of it then is justified.
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: but still even if you flush linux cache out
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: and get the memory back
[10:42] BlueWall Slade: 2.0.1 does weird things like consuming all of swap
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: its still unstable
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: until you reboot
[10:42] Fly Man: well, the strange thing is that everyone is till at 1.9.1 or 2.0.1
[10:42] Fly Man: and I have seen things happen with that one
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya i tried em all
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: and im stuck at 2.0.1
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: if i want it to run more than 20 minutes
[10:42] Tiffany Sicling: isn't there any cleanup ability to clear memory no longer used in mono/opensim ?
[10:42] Justin Clark-Casey: isn't 2.4 out soon?
[10:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[10:43] Richardus Raymaker: suse seems not to have newer one the 2.0.1
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: RC is out for 2.4
[10:43] Charles Krinke: Perhaps more conversations with SDague?
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: tiffany: It should be clear as soon as you kill the processes. Something odd is happening in your system
[10:43] BlueWall Slade: I migrated up Fly Man, but wnet back because of the swaps space issues
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: buy i find anything beyond 2.0.1
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: is unusable with opensim
[10:43] Snowdrop Short: 2.4 was released yesterday
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: you get ODE errors galore
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: snowdrop: oh right
[10:43] Nebadon Izumi: and trampolines
[10:43] Justin Clark-Casey: anyone tried 2.4 yet?
[10:43] Tiffany Sicling: well, the memory thing started as soon as I updated to mono 2.0.1
[10:43] Fly Man: Justin, on 2.5 TRUNK
[10:44] BlueWall Slade: I think the GC is having issues when it gets into swap
[10:44] Fly Man: and I haven't experienced issues so far
[10:44] Snowdrop Short: I haven't been able to build 2.4 yet :-(
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: there's definitely a 'trampoline' problem in 2.2, but I'm wondering if that has been fixed in 2.4
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: it wasnt in RC1
[10:44] Justin Clark-Casey: snowdrop: Ah, so no binaries yet?
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: 2.4 RC1 had lots of trampolines
[10:44] Fly Man: BUT:
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: also
[10:44] Dahlia Trimble is Online
[10:44] Nebadon Izumi: 2.5 does too
[10:44] Fly Man: I didn't compile with that patch
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: I saw a bug report which suggested it may have been fixed at some point, though if it's present in RC1 that's not too encouraging
[10:45] Fly Man: that one that outputs info
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: 2.5 has major trampoline errors too
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: oh man
[10:45] Justin Clark-Casey: somebody should really report that to the mono guys
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: flyman didnt you talk to them?
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: maybe we can relay some info to them
[10:45] Nebadon Izumi: they dont seem very receptive though
[10:46] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[10:46] Dahlia Trimble: Hi :)
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: hey dahlia :)
[10:46] Fly Man: Yes, but haven't heard back from them
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: Nebadon: oh right? In what way?
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: ah they seem on the war path thats all
[10:46] Nebadon Izumi: forging ahead without much input
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm beginning to think that we're the major stresser of mono :) Often when I look up mono bugs I end up seeing our mantis reports quite high up on the list
[10:46] Justin Clark-Casey: hum
[10:46] Charles Krinke: Soundslike us, sometimes
[10:47] Charles Krinke: "forging ahead without much inpuyt"
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:47] BlueWall Slade: jhurliman is proabbly a good person to contact them.
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: ya im not saying its a bad thing
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: just that sometimes they arent really listening
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: just kinda nodding at you
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it's tough
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: why is there not some .net to linux C++ converter ?
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey: almost makes one want to install everything on windows ;)
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:47] Justin Clark-Casey jokes
[10:47] Richardus Raymaker: so you can run without mono
[10:47] Nebadon Izumi: well i am there at the moment
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: only because its more convienient
[10:48] BlueWall Slade: I don't even have windows
[10:48] BlueWall Slade: lol
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: in my haste to reorganize hardware
[10:48] Nebadon Izumi: it was just easier to slap on windows
[10:48] Charles Krinke: Its pobably a similar poblem. If a developer runs a unit or integration test and it succeeds, it becomes difficult to visualize the stress we give the software on a plaza like this one.
[10:48] Justin Clark-Casey: yes
[10:48] Fly Man: Well, Justin knows what we need ...
[10:48] Fly Man: and it's called Profiling
[10:49] sim core needs and auto memory flush for the sim
[10:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't blame you for running windows - it is going to perform better than mono right now, I shoudl think
[10:49] Charles Krinke: ok, so lets investigate profiling a bit on a few regions.
[10:49] BlueWall Slade: yes, the interaction between avatars and regions, regions and regions does a lot o fthings
[10:49] Tiffany Sicling: yea, I was tempted to trash my server and put windoze on it lol
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya mostly for me it was i didnt have time ro recompile the kernel 15 times
[10:49] BlueWall Slade: that would trash it
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: and look for missing dependancies
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: i needed to get the sims running in a few hours
[10:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:49] Richardus Raymaker: but nobody give windows for free, besides that. then im getting stressed :)
[10:49] sim core: I run win xp and mac osx now
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: i need to get more linux friendly hardware
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: Fly-Man-: To be blunt, I think what we really need is a core dev to sit down for a few days and analyze the heck out of it
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: thats my biggest problem
[10:50] Tiffany Sicling: I'm afraid to put a region back on my OSX box lol
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: getting the time is a problem
[10:50] Fly Man: Justin, still he/she needs to have info where to look ;)
[10:50] Richardus Raymaker: i go put osgrid regions back on stranger server. with linux
[10:50] sim core: Osx is good, if not perfect
[10:50] Fly Man: And Profiling would help
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: i saw adam and was it 3di or Rex was doing load testing
[10:50] Justin Clark-Casey: Fly-Man-: True. I hear that profiling is better on windows (though maybe that is with commercial tools)
[10:50] Tiffany Sicling: yea, but memory leaks still occur on OSX too
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: the data is on adams blog
[10:51] Dahlia Trimble: I've been following some of the Intel profiling efforts but I cant say I understand them very well
[10:51] sim core: Indeed, memory leaks are cumulative on both systems ( win/ osx )
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: Justin - do you have a url for that profiling tool?
[10:51] sim core: Just seems on osx it's more robist when swap files are kicking in
[10:51] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: which one?
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: I googled, but get some Apple video tool
[10:51] sim core: *Robust
[10:51] BlueWall Slade: live-type
[10:51] Charles Krinke: live-type
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: i think when your dealing in terms of GC 64 bit will always be more efficient
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: in that sense
[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: are you running on mono?
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: 32 bit has to peddle harder
[10:52] BlueWall Slade: yes
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: hence macs more efficent feel
[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: if you type man mono and then search for PROFILERS you shoudl see it
[10:52] BlueWall Slade: ok, thanks
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: but getting it up and running on 64 bit isnt always easy
[10:52] Tiffany Sicling: eaglefx has issues with 64bit but not sure exactly what they are
[10:53] Fly Man: Well, I'm still pressing on the button to get more information about a region
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: if one of those classes reaches some big number then that would give a good clue as to where a leak may be
[10:53] Fly Man: but that's in line after the OSProfile
[10:53] BlueWall Slade: I have to order a new MB so I can get more RAM ni teh box
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: live type prints out the number of objects of each class every time the GC runs
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: oh since were talking about hardware
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: let me show you guys something
[10:54] BlueWall Slade: I run really goo if I keep keep some headroom in RAM
[10:54] BlueWall Slade: good
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: oh sorry, number of bytes consumed, not number of objects
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi:
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: actually, might even be interesting to hack the code just to prin tout the top 5 or even the top 2....
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: i found this motherboard on ebay
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmmmm
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: for 110$
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: with 2gb ram
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: its a Dual core 1.6ghz atom
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: 45nm
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: i imagine these might make pretty good region servers
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: throw a ssd drive on there
[10:55] Nebadon Izumi: you could probably run a few regions
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: diva says she ehink the wind module problem may be mono-addins related, but isn't to do with libomv
[10:55] Teravus Ousley is Online
[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: not so fast, pahge still loading.. nice is to have a I7 board. its haveing 6 ram slots
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ok thanks for update justin
[10:56] Fly Man: But do we have a "Supported version" for this week ?
[10:56] Tiffany Sicling: hi eaglefx
[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: 8849 ?
[10:56] Dahlia Trimble: "Supported"?
[10:56] Richardus Raymaker: hi eagle
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya i7 would be nice
[10:56] Charles Krinke: 8849
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: but your talking about 800$ minumum
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: for hardware
[10:56] Charles Krinke: 8849 is "recommended" for this sweek
[10:57] Teravus Ousley: heh, I always recommend running release versions for production systems :)
[10:57] Tiffany Sicling: how is 8849 doing ?
[10:57] Charles Krinke: <pfffft>, too conservative
[10:57] Richardus Raymaker: yeah, board is expoensiev 259 euro here. then 6GB memory and cpu needed.
[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: anybody here running a production system? :)
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: openlifegrid
[10:57] Fly Man: *raises hand*
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: jk
[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: ooh, HomerH just volunteered to look at the wind module
[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: everythings 100% and perfect over there :P
[10:58] Charles Krinke: good
[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: Fly-Man-: You are a brave man, sir :)
[10:58] Fly Man: I am ;)
[10:58] Fly Man: You should have seen my first TV experience ;)
[10:58] Teravus Ousley:
[10:58] BlueWall Slade: hah - all the "production" people seem to distance themselves from us
[10:58] Charles Krinke: I gotta go do my manager dance with memo wars, posturing staements, political engineering
[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: they do?
[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: bye Charles
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: Have fun CK
[10:59] Charles Krinke is Offline
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: see ya charles
[10:59] BlueWall Slade: naah, Justin - just not many show up here.
[10:59] Teravus Ousley: <-- Bullet physics plugin test
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: im downloading now
[11:00] Fly Man: Ahh, good 1st of April joke Teravus ;)
[11:00] Teravus Ousley: it isn't quite ready for the likes of wright plaza yet.. but it can do basic things..
[11:00] Teravus Ousley: heh, that was no joke.
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:00] Fly Man: Ooo, okay :p
[11:00] Fly Man grins
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: if you need some crazy hardware to test on
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: They're too busy rebooting their servers ;)
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: i can offer up my Q9400 CPU
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:00] Fly Man whispers: Neb, we need to tal later btw ;)
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: k FLy Man
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i'll be around on IRC
[11:01] Fly Man: Neb, need ya inworld ;)
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: nice mainboard on newegg. but small
[11:01] Teravus Ousley: Cool. I want to get a linux version compiled and then I'll commit what I have and work from there.
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: oh ok
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: no problem fly-man
[11:01] Richardus Raymaker: then you need many of them.. = hig energy usage
[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: why such a lowres video Teravus?
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya well you can on ebay get the entire machine
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: for 110$
[11:01] Justin Clark-Casey: or do I simply have too big a screen
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: wtih 2gb ram and cpu
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: so for like less than 200$
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: you could build a server pretty much
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: small HD
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: and mini case
[11:02] Teravus Ousley: heh, lowrez because I wanted a small file :)
[11:02] Dahlia Trimble: everyone downloads ter's video at the same time :/
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: you should try youtube
[11:02] Richardus Raymaker: what cpu do you have then ?
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: they really compress em down nice
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: you can download the mp4 from them
[11:02] Dahlia Trimble: they let you download now?
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: it will turn a 1gb file into about 100-150meg file
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: ya well
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: they dont advertise you can download it
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: let me get you some instructions
[11:03] Fly Man: K, some issues have been fixed this week
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:03] Fly Man: but I still see a simple issue reoccuring:
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: this will allow you to download the low-res Mp4
[11:03] Dahlia Trimble: ty :)
[11:03] Fly Man: "Mantus reports"
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: this lets you do HD youtube vids
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i use it all the time
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: ive actually been using youtube
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: as my render farm for converting video
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:04] Dahlia Trimble: lol
[11:04] Teravus Ousley: heh
[11:05] Teravus Ousley: maybe I should get divX or something also
[11:05] Tiffany Sicling: I get a black screen and no sound, even with VLC
[11:05] Fly Man: But do we have some other things to talk about ?
[11:05] Teravus Ousley: It uses the 'Microsoft Video 1' codec.
[11:06] Fly Man: Else I will be back onto Profile work
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: is the codec pack i use
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: it installs virtually every format known to man
[11:06] Richardus Raymaker: can someone try a ping to osgrid from europe ?
[11:07] Fly Man: richardus: 95 ms
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I think I shall pop off now
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: i have almost 50% packetloss. yes its my isp
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefully everybody got move of the meeting time back to 1800 UTC for the summer... :)
[11:07] Programmer Mohr: Reply from bytes=32 time=86ms TTL=54
[11:07] Dahlia Trimble: me too.. bye all :)
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: now its ok again
[11:08] Fly Man: k
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: bye dahlia
[11:08] Fly Man is off as well
[11:08] Dahlia Trimble is Offline
[11:08] Teravus Ousley: heh, happy pre april fools..
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: bye dahlia
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: bye folks
[11:08] Fly Man: *waves*
[11:08] Fly Man is Offline
[11:08] Programmer Mohr: going too
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey waits with anticipation as to what is going to happen
[11:08] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: on April Fool's that is
[11:09] Teravus Ousley: I guess I was late.. and not early
[11:09] Teravus Ousley: go figure :P
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline
[11:09] Programmer Mohr: if someone need a testregion... i have a few.. just contact me
[11:10] Programmer Mohr: bye for now
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ok well i think that about wraps up this weeks meet
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: unless anyone has anything else
[11:10] Tiffany Sicling: not at this time :)
[11:10] BlueWall Slade: Thanks! good meeting.
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: ok well until next week then
[11:10] sim core: Oh right, can anyone tell-me what the 'un-ack' indicator in the 'show stats' command meand?
[11:10] Nebadon Izumi: i'll be on iRC if needed
[11:11] sim core: *Means
[11:11] sim core: I get about half a billion ( really ) of thse sometimes
[11:11] Tiffany Sicling: Great meeting, guys
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: basiclly it means packet loss i think
[11:11] sim core: *Those
[11:11] sim core: Hum, thank-you :-)
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: or out of order packets to maybe
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: i think anyway
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: un-acknowlesdged
[11:11] Nebadon Izumi: is what it means i think
[11:11] sim core: Well, happens both on mac osx and win xp
[11:12] sim core: And seems the messages that it creates makes it lag a lot
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: sounds like packet loss to me
[11:12] eaglefx Binder: will u post it on the Wiki, i came in late.
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i will
[11:12] Tiffany Sicling: I've had packet loss even on a 100Mb LAN
[11:12] sim core: That would mean a client oversizing theirs bandwith, maybe?
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: i have the entire log
[11:12] Nebadon Izumi: even before we crashed
[11:12] sim core: *Their
[11:12] eaglefx Binder: Ok
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: unackB = 2581 here. thats for lets say 1 hour running
[11:13] eaglefx Binder: i have been hanging out with SL live Billig chat for over and hour now.. LOL Geeee
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: you always lost some packet. but not to much
[11:13] sim core: Sometimes it remains at zero, but most of the time it goes into millions or 10 times more even...
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: ya if its that high thats bad
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: might be router freaking out
[11:13] Richardus Raymaker: hm sound not good
[11:13] sim core: If it's packet loss, I'll try to pinpoint the problem
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya it definatly is
[11:14] sim core: Oddly enough, it's not allways
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hmm sounds like router then maybe
[11:14] sim core: And mostly when people login or logout
[11:14] eaglefx Binder: did you talk about the bad stuff that happened since 8938 today?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: ya i bet your router cant handle the massive influx of requests
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: its dropping packets
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: i have a neatgear that does that too
[11:14] sim core: Is it router side or client side?
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: hard to say could be either really
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: my 1st guess
[11:15] BlueWall Slade is Offline
[11:15] Tiffany Sicling: 8938 kills itself to shell after a osTeleportAgent transfer from it to another region
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: is router
[11:15] sim core: So the indicator is not defined for one or the other, then
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: NAT can be overwhelmed
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: almost DOS like
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: the way it treats it
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: what kind of router is it?
[11:15] sim core: I see no droppped packets on the router interface
[11:15] sim core: 2701
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: i have a replaced RV042. not a bad one. but its not easy to see. because without router you dotn use the interent (the same way)
[11:15] BlueWall Slade is Online
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: thats good
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: maybe bad cable?
[11:16] Nebadon Izumi: any wireless on your net?
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: sorry its a linksys
[11:16] sim core: Yes, wireless and ethernet regions
[11:16] Richardus Raymaker: no, no not wireless here
[11:16] Tiffany Sicling: hehe, linksys
[11:16] sim core: Gateway 2701 G
[11:16] Teravus Ousley: k.. I guess I'll go also :P
[11:17] sim core: See-you, terravus
[11:17] sim core: *Teravus
[11:17] Tiffany Sicling: my experience with linksys is they have a small NAT table
[11:17] Teravus Ousley: take care. Have a good day before April 1
[11:17] Tiffany Sicling: bye Teravus :)
[11:17] Teravus Ousley is Offline
[11:17] sim core: Wpuldn't it be noted in the router log if it was it that dropped the packets?
[11:18] sim core: I mostly suspect the clients dropping
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: ok. see you later. time to call isp again
[11:18] sim core: Maybe from the linden UDP setting, maybe?
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker is Offline
[11:19] Ideia Boa: Bye all, have a good day and true April 1
[11:20] eaglefx Binder: well seems like i got my account back now on SL ... HAHA Geees they are bad.
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: ok guys i gotta run
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: before my phone rings again
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: lol need lunch
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: take care guys
[11:21] Nebadon Izumi: see ya soon

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