Chat log from the meeting on 2008-12-02

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Tuesday Meeting @ Wright Plaza on OSGrid

[10:49] Fi Folland is Offline
[10:49] Alby Damden is Online
[10:50] Charles Krinkeb is Online
[10:50] justincc: ahh, that wasn't a crash, it was you logging me out :)
[10:50] justincc: must remember to actually read those dialog boxes
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: oh i did a show users it said no one was on
[10:50] justincc: hmm
[10:50] justincc: oh well
[10:50] Nebadon Izumi: guess its removing user from the show users before teleport completes
[10:51] Charles Krinkeb: Looks like it snowed around here.
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: hehe yea i did a bit of revamping for thie holiday season
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: redid all the bushes too
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: and saved a few 100 prims
[10:51] justincc: yeah, very nice, very christmassy :)
[10:51] Nebadon Izumi: thanks :D
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: i built a little fireplace up in the meeting area too
[10:52] Charles Krinkeb: Its cool, man. I wish I was a bit more artistic.
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: make ita little more festive
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: oh yea the duck strapped on a cap and skates
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: decided to ride the winter out
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:52] Charles Krinkeb: your're not kidding.
[10:52] Justin Clark-Casey is Online
[10:52] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: yea too much time on my hands
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: wierd
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: this prim is a bit off
[10:53] Charles Krinkeb: oh migosh, the duck does have skates on the frozen fountain. What a trip.
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: hmm not good
[10:53] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha
[10:53] Charles Krinkeb: and of course the water cannot run when it is frozen.
[10:53] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: love the duck
[10:54] Charles Krinkeb: Justin. It looks in my scene that both you and I are buried up to our knees in the stone.
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: yea since border crossings iffy, he decided not to fly south
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: yes me too
[10:54] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: wow, icy bath Charles?
[10:54] Justin Clark-Casey: isn't that a traditioanl Russian activity?
[10:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ah. that's better
[10:55] Charles Krinkeb: I tried to sit on the stone and ended up in the ice bath.
[10:55] BlueWall Slade is Online
[10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: I feel quite cold just looking at this
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: ahh much betta
[10:56] Nebadon Izumi: not sure why charles is sinking still
[10:56] Justin Clark-Casey: walk about a bit, Charles
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: but yea it came out better than i expected it too
[10:57] Nebadon Izumi: the snowflake particle is an actually snowflake crystal under a microscope
[10:57] Justin Clark-Casey: nice
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: ive been going crazy with Wings3D making sculpty
[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm a bit diappointed they're not all completely different though ;)
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: redid all the bushes and enabled sculpt meshing
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: that wouldnt be to hard to fix
[10:58] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, yeah, procedurally generated slowflakes
[10:58] Peter Stephens: Charles still looks hobbled at the knee
[10:58] Nebadon Izumi: lets head up
[10:58] Charles Krinkeb: I've been hobbled for many years.
[10:59] Nebadon Izumi: hehe nice and warm in here
[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: ah, nice traditional fire
[10:59] Charles Krinkeb: Hmm. Are you guys playing trick on me to make me sink up to my knees?
[10:59] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe if you adjusted your avatar height that might fix the problem, Charles?
[10:59] Fly Man is Online
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: i have a wood stack and fireplace tools im working on now
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: or then again, maybe that would just cause your client to crash out :)
[11:00] Blaksmith Rubble is Online
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: he just needs to sit then standd
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: it will fix it
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: ah ha
[11:00] HomerH joins #osgrid-wp
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: that works too
[11:00] Nebadon Izumi: thats good
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, that seems to have worked too
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: cool
[11:00] Fly Man: Hey All
[11:00] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Fly
[11:00] Charles Krinkeb: hmm. better now. I wonder what changed?
[11:00] BlueWall Slade is Online
[11:01] Blaksmith Rubble: eep,s I just vanished
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: you were standing on those prims when i was making them and adjusting them
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: it got confused no doubt
[11:01] Blaksmith Rubble: and the rest of teh sim stopped coming in
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: i also made the base prim phantom
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: cause it wasnt meshing proper
[11:01] Charles Krinkeb: I think I'll be smaller then the rest of you for a while.
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: yea its best to stay close to the ruth hiegh still
[11:01] Nebadon Izumi: but were getting better
[11:01] whump joins #osgrid-wp
[11:02] BlueWall joins #osgrid-wp
[11:02] Blaksmith Rubble is Offline
[11:02] Charles Krinkeb: Shall we get started?
[11:02] Nebadon Izumi: sure
[11:02] Homer Horwitz: Hi :)
[11:02] Justin Clark-Casey: hey Homer
[11:02] paulie Flomar is Offline
[11:02] Blaksmith Rubble is Online
[11:03] Nebadon Izumi: so whats the hot topic for the week?
[11:03] Charles Krinkeb: I want to start by making a plea about something that is bothering me. The subject is getting changes documented a bit more. Can we please ensure that a wiki entry is made whenever a developer adds or deletes a field in the datastor? I read that lots of folks are a bit frustrated over changes that very few know anything about.
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: i was just making last minute anouncement in the irc
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: about meeting
[11:04] Blaksmith: having problems at wp
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: sure whatever happened to Wiki Thursdays?
[11:04] Blaksmith Rubble is Offline
[11:04] Nebadon Izumi: did that just kind of fizzle?
[11:05] Justin Clark-Casey: you might need to make a broader appeal on the amiling list charles
[11:05] Charles Krinkeb: The other half of this plea is that some of our testers make a conscious effort to document features to help cut down on the IRC questions a bit from newcomers. Think how great it is to say "Please read that on the wiki" and be able to mean it.
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hmm maybe we should make some signs for the plazas
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: asking for peoples help
[11:06] Charles Krinkeb: I will do that, also, Justin. Its just that I sense frustration from quite a few users over the changes that very few know anything about.
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: to do your part on the wiki
[11:06] Blaksmith Rubble is Online
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: Uncle Hippo wants You!
[11:06] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:06] Mikelo Serevi: lol
[11:06] BlueWall Slade: lol
[11:06] Justin Clark-Casey: we are poor on documentation
[11:06] Mikelo Serevi: most people hate to document
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea its not much fun, but if everyone does just a little
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: its not so bad
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: I thnk the developers should at least odcument the basics, even if in a very rough manner
[11:07] Homer Horwitz: Actually, usually it's done. Just not in the wiki, but in the commit message.
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: then other community members can usually extend that
[11:07] Charles Krinkeb: I think we are at the stage where a core developer can mentor a user for each .EXE and .DLL and have our users create that documentation to not over burden the developers. But, ... the developers that are adding new things need to get the word out a tiny bit more.
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea perhaps we need to get some people working on taking the comit logs
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe someone should watch commit messages?
[11:07] sacha Magne: none of our regular users read th commits
[11:07] Nebadon Izumi: and parsing each change into the proper wiki spots
[11:07] Justin Clark-Casey: good point Homer
[11:08] paulie Flomar is Online
[11:08] BlueWall Slade: if it's in the code, it will show up onteh classes docs at
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: no, cause people often done do method level documentation
[11:08] Justin Clark-Casey: don't do
[11:08] Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:09] Homer Horwitz: And DB changes won't be in the code anyway
[11:09] BlueWall Slade: that would help a lot, even for us who are learning teh code
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: why do people want to knwo about db changes?
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: Sorry about the lag folks, it will calm down once log ins settle a bit
[11:09] Charles Krinkeb: Every time we change a database field, it causes chaos that goes on for a couple of days or more. Thats the current hot button for me. The next one is the new OpenSim.ini settings. Neither of which is easily discerned from the commit logs.
[11:09] BlueWall Slade: hmm, maybe 3rd party apps?
[11:09] Nebadon Izumi: for those struggleing to reach the couches
[11:09] Blaksmith Rubble: wheeee, things are going VERY slow here today
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: why do db changes cause chaos?
[11:10] sacha Magne: cause of the missing dll
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: OpenSim.ini I can understand more
[11:10] sacha Magne: pple expect the head working as is
[11:10] Charles Krinkeb: DB changes cause sims to not work anymore. For instance, the localID caused both sqlite and mssql to stop working and hours of effort by folks to figure it out.
[11:10] Homer Horwitz: Changes in the OpenSim.ini are usually documented in the OpenSim.ini.example, no?
[11:10] Charles Krinkeb: NO
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: but that was not a db change - it was really a code change
[11:10] Charles Krinkeb: thats the point
[11:10] Homer Horwitz: Hm, ok.
[11:10] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, they aren't always
[11:10] BlueWall Slade: yes, I think the changes are documented there
[11:11] Hiro Protagonist is Online
[11:11] Homer Horwitz: They should, I'd say. It's the reference for the OpenSim.ini, after all.
[11:11] Charles Krinkeb: Well, I would argue that that code change caused sqlite and mssql to stop working and if we had a wiki entry it might have saved a few hours of frustration.
[11:11] Justin Clark-Casey: the bug was actually accidental
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: it was not an intentional change
[11:12] Homer Horwitz: Charles: I don't think so in that instance. The code change wasn't a DB change; so you wouldn't have noticed anything, I guess.
[11:12] Blaksmith Rubble: I'm about to take my sim down for this.. someone is crossing back and forth over and over and over and over killing my bandwidth
[11:12] Justin Clark-Casey: dos attack!
[11:12] Charles Krinkeb: It was merely an example, justin. My plea is for us to give a tiny bit more thought to "significant changes", where 'significant" is defined as "probably causing ten or more folks on IRC to go : why is it broken?"
[11:13] Charles Krinkeb: thats all
[11:13] sacha Magne: like the newpackage to add
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: Yes, I agree with the general point. Hopefully a mailing list post will get some attention
[11:13] Homer Horwitz: If people are using trunk, but don't read the commit messages, will they search the wiki?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: well to be honest
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: i wish our svn log was on our wiki
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: is that possible?
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: part of it is
[11:13] Hiro Protagonist: !that would be sweet
[11:13] Ralf Schlegel: Is there a way for commit logs to be auto posted to the wiki? At least that would be a start in getting the information on changes more acessible?
[11:13] Nebadon Izumi: that might go a long long way to less confusion
[11:13] Homer Horwitz: Hm, interesting pint.
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: if you look on the dev docs page
[11:13] Homer Horwitz: *point
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: yea but its not clearly easy to find
[11:14] Charles Krinkeb: Homer. The point is that we can tell folks that ask "why is it broken" to search the wiki and cut down on answering the same question 100 times.
[11:14] Nebadon Izumi: we should have a change log easily visible near the download links
[11:14] Homer Horwitz: Well, we currently can do a "read the commit messages", no? And don't ;)
[11:14] Darren Vayandar: I always use this:
[11:14] sacha Magne: what is a commit message ?
[11:15] Nebadon Izumi: thats a nice one
[11:15] sacha Magne: how do add a packet on xxxxx
[11:15] Ralf Schlegel: what about a wiki FAQ liason? If we see multiple requests for a problem, we posted it on the wilki and the solution. Before another IRC member asks?
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: it's the message you see in irc, sacha
[11:15] sacha Magne: my sim is broken
[11:15] Charles Krinkeb: I dont want to hijack the meeting for this one point. Suffice it to say, I make a plea to both developers and users to help with our documentation.
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: sounds like some of this might be more suited to the thursday wiki session
[11:15] sacha Magne: i know justin
[11:15] sacha Magne: but the pple in opensim
[11:15] sacha Magne: don't
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: sacha: ah, I see
[11:15] sacha Magne: they just popup for help
[11:15] Homer Horwitz: If you are follwing trunk, you should know what a commit message is. Otherwise, please use the official releases. An automatic filter to damp down the noise, if you want.
[11:15] sacha Magne: and leave asap
[11:15] Justin Clark-Casey: Homer: yeah, the problem is people still use trunk anyway
[11:16] Justin Clark-Casey: for the shiny
[11:16] BlueWall Slade: do we have an official release tht is compatible with teh UGAIM at OSGrid ATM?
[11:16] Hiro Protagonist: you mean #opensim Sacha?
[11:16] sacha Magne: yes hiro
[11:16] Homer Horwitz: For the record: I'm not against putting more info on the Wiki :) I'm just not sure it will help.
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: why not?
[11:17] Hiro Protagonist: it's not just the shiny Justin
[11:17] Hiro Protagonist: for instance, right now, the binary release will not connect to osgrid
[11:17] BlueWall Slade: someone pointed out that the official stable has a note on the wiki that it's not compatible with OSGrid
[11:17] Hiro Protagonist: t isnt
[11:17] BlueWall Slade: Hiro++
[11:17] Justin Clark-Casey: that's true
[11:17] Hiro Protagonist: Sacha, I hate to say it, but I no longer even monitor #opensim
[11:18] sacha Magne: i know hiro ;)
[11:18] sacha Magne: i do monitor
[11:18] sacha Magne: and most of the "weekender" are not comp pple
[11:18] Hiro Protagonist: I try again once in a while, but everyone I've tried to help there in the past three months has had serious issues
[11:18] Hiro Protagonist: and not with openim
[11:18] Hiro Protagonist: *opensim
[11:18] Justin Clark-Casey snorts
[11:19] Blaksmith Rubble: most issues in #Opensim are loopback and database stuff
[11:19] Hiro Protagonist: my problem with helping out there is all the know it alls who wont read doc
[11:19] sacha Magne: or svn is broken
[11:19] sacha Magne: well, my opensim is broken
[11:19] Hiro Protagonist: or bitch about pasting configs
[11:19] Hiro Protagonist: etc
[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, this is why I was a little concerned about posting binaries
[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: the hypothesis being that it raises precisely that noise level
[11:20] Charles Krinkeb: I have to go to another meeting, back in a while to read the log
[11:20] Justin Clark-Casey: bye Charles
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: k Charles
[11:20] Homer Horwitz waves
[11:20] BlueWall Slade: bye Charles
[11:20] Hiro Protagonist: so anyway
[11:20] Hiro Protagonist: How's trunk LOL
[11:20] Nebadon Izumi: not too bad we are a few revs back here but close
[11:20] Simulator Version v0.4b shouts: OpenSimulator Server (OS Fedora Core release 6 (Zod) Kernel \r on an \) ChilTasks:True PhysPrim:False on Mono 2.3a
[11:21] sacha Magne: justin: i still not freeze :)
[11:21] Blaksmith Rubble: mine is on 7576 .. still going ok ..
[11:21] Hiro Protagonist: have the telporting/region crossing issues been addressed?
[11:21] Justin Clark-Casey: sacha: small mercies
[11:21] sacha Magne: i hope it will pass the 1h targer :)
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: Wright Plaza has been holding up well
[11:22] Nebadon Izumi: im pretty happy with it at the moment
[11:22] daTwitch joins #osgrid-wp
[11:22] Homer Horwitz: Hiro: Addressed yes. Solved no.
[11:22] Hiro Protagonist: Thanks Homer :)
[11:22] Hiro Protagonist: nothing like a straight asnwer :D
[11:22] Homer Horwitz: Not completely, at least.
[11:23] Hiro Protagonist: how's the SOG/SOP work going?
[11:23] Justin Clark-Casey: hai, slow as a turtle
[11:24] Hiro Protagonist nods
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: but slow and steady :)
[11:24] Hiro Protagonist: slow is ever better than stopped or backwards
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: er, wins the day, hopefuly ( or cuts down the bugs)
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it remains in my mind. I'm quite keen on writing unit test support in some areas before refactoring
[11:24] Blaksmith Rubble: ooh, just noticed, I have my radar HUD on, and I don't have the purple hair!
[11:24] Justin Clark-Casey: them. Less chance of me breaking things unknowingly :)
[11:25] Hiro Protagonist nods
[11:25] Hiro Protagonist: unit tests ftw :)
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, a lot of the stuff I've done is necessary infrastructure for doing them at all
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: thats good Blaksmith
[11:25] Justin Clark-Casey: hopefully they will get easier to write
[11:25] Nebadon Izumi: new hippo viewer maybe?
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: btw, has anybody had a chance to try
[11:26] Justin Clark-Casey: this is the progressive texture patch updated by jhurliman
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: hows everyones experience with new Hippo 0.4.0 btw?
[11:26] Alby Damden is Offline
[11:26] Hiro Protagonist: so far so good re: hippo viewer
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: pretty good
[11:26] Nebadon Izumi: nice, yea its been nice and smooth here for me
[11:26] Blaksmith Rubble: ahh yes, I'm using the hippo viewer too now .. still a few quirks to get used to
[11:26] Hiro Protagonist: oh, this is slightly off-topic
[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: but I wanted to let y'all know you'll be seeing my brother around (juan_moe)
[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: be sure to give him the 'special' treatment LOL
[11:27] Homer Horwitz: progressing texture: Nope, didn't notice it. But I'll give it a try.
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, the become a god and kick him off the sim whilst cackling treatment? :)
[11:27] Fly Man: Uhm, special treatment ?
[11:27] Torrance Miles: I was just using Hippo (on a Mac) and after 3 crhases just now, I switched back to the SL viewer to see if that helps
[11:27] sacha Magne: good old bashing Hiro ?
[11:27] Fly Man: Like hang him in the Christmas tree ?
[11:27] Blaksmith Rubble: lol
[11:27] Hiro Protagonist: something to that effect :D
[11:27] Justin Clark-Casey: Homer: cool - I'm a bit leary of sticking it in trunk again afater last time
[11:27] Fly Man: *rofl*
[11:28] Hiro Protagonist: he's a good guy, different skillset than me, and will be bringing up a region or two soon
[11:28] Homer Horwitz: Well, it worked quite well for me last time, to :)
[11:28] Homer Horwitz: *too
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: hiro: what is his skillset?
[11:28] Hiro Protagonist: he's more of a windows guy
[11:28] Homer Horwitz: Well, nothing you can do... I'll have to live with it...
[11:28] Hiro Protagonist: not too much for programming, but generally pretty good with hardware and software installation
[11:28] Hiro Protagonist: svn is new to him
[11:28] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, there seem to be some unfortunat obscre cases
[11:29] Hiro Protagonist: once up to speed, he will make a great tester
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: which might only turn up with lots of people banging on it, unfrotauntely
[11:29] Homer Horwitz: Justincc: After last time, I'll try to corrupt some textures and have a look what happens.
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: excellent
[11:29] Justin Clark-Casey: If we can ge tthat patch in, it will reduce the load on the sims
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I think at the moment we keep resending the full quality texture for every request
[11:30] Homer Horwitz: I think so, yes.
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: I might also be talking out of my hat - I'm not completely intimate with the area. But either way it should help sim performance
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: So if testers can try it that would be most welcome
[11:30] Justin Clark-Casey: mantis 2655
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: k cool
[11:31] Nebadon Izumi: i can try later, though i have some running around to do after the meeting
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: cool
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: anyone interested theres some free sculpty available in the sandbox here
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: just some samples of things ive been working on
[11:32] Blaksmith Rubble: cool
[11:32] Nebadon Izumi: have some packs im making to share with everyone
[11:32] BlueWall Slade: heh, thanks Nebadon
[11:33] Mikelo Serevi: I grabbed some earlier, but haven't tried them yet.
[11:33] Fly Man: I have some info about the Map
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: they work great with sculpt meshing
[11:33] Fly Man: Been working with some ppl
[11:33] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:33] Fly Man: and they explained me how the best way of making a map would be
[11:33] Fly Man: but this will take some time to have it working
[11:33] Fly Man: as we're reliant of "working" regions that show their map
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: cool, well the fact your making ground is great
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: map definatly needs love
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[11:34] Fly Man: Yup
[11:34] Blaksmith Rubble: oh, speaking of meshing and scuplting .. I have a weird one... on one of my sims, I have sculpted stairs, and when you first get there, and let everything rez in, you can not walk down the stairs
[11:34] Fly Man: Well, it will show 9 tiles
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: do anything cool with CodeIgnitor yet?
[11:34] Fly Man: Yeah
[11:34] Fly Man: Lots ;)
[11:34] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:34] Fly Man: But that's for another meeting :p
[11:34] Blaksmith Rubble: you hover in the air .. .. .until... you edit the stairs, take a step, then release edit, then you can walk up and down em
[11:34] Fly Man: Tried to convert the landtool into CodeIgnitor
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: ah nice
[11:35] Fly Man: as CI has XMLRCP services
[11:35] Fly Man: so that would be nice for the inworld search
[11:35] Fly Man: if I can get it to work on Hippo
[11:35] Nebadon Izumi: nice
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: eee, yet another web application framework :)
[11:35] Fly Man: Justin, one of many ;)
[11:35] Fly Man: I started with Joomla ;)
[11:36] Fly Man: so then Neb told me about CI
[11:36] sacha Magne: do we have some implementation of "avatar loadin" ?
[11:36] Fly Man: and that does the trick even better ;)
[11:36] sacha Magne: from the web
[11:36] Fly Man: Sacha, nope
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: so what's better about CI?
[11:36] Fly Man: at this moment that part is on hold from me out
[11:36] Fly Man: JCC, the XMLRPC calls ;)
[11:36] Nebadon Izumi: Adam was who told me about CI
[11:37] Nebadon Izumi: he thought it would be a good basis for the Web Interface
[11:37] Fly Man: Well, the great point is that it works with classes
[11:37] Fly Man: and you can extend those with your own stuff
[11:37] Fly Man: so for example
[11:37] BlueWall Slade: xmlrpc is pretty easy in drupal too
[11:37] Fly Man:
[11:37] Fly Man: will show a search
[11:37] Fly Man: but
[11:38] Fly Man: will show all avatars that will be available
[11:38] Fly Man: for usage inworld
[11:38] Fly Man: No more index,php?module=<something)
[11:38] Fly Man: but clean /something/ url's
[11:38] Nebadon Izumi: thats nice
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: those urls can get out of control fast
[11:39] Nebadon Izumi: all 10 miles long
[11:39] Fly Man: uhm, like this:
[11:39] Fly Man: ?
[11:39] Homer Horwitz: Don't you bookmark them?
[11:39] Homer Horwitz: I mean, short URLs are nice if you have to type them...
[11:40] Homer Horwitz: But I usually don't.
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: well also making hyperlinks too
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: those big ones are not good to work with ever
[11:40] Nebadon Izumi: imho
[11:40] sacha Magne: .
[11:40] sacha Magne: speaking of that...
[11:40] Fly Man: But still, Adam has a point with that tool :)
[11:40] Fly Man: It shows progress :)
[11:40] Fly Man: and it will allow XMLRPC calls from OS => OSgrid website
[11:41] Fly Man: and OSgrid => OS
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: very cool
[11:41] Nebadon Izumi: the website definatly has lots and lots of room for improvement
[11:41] Fly Man: I agree
[11:42] Fly Man: But talking about the map
[11:42] Fly Man: Did anyone have an idea how to build the map ?
[11:42] Nebadon Izumi: it will be cool to when i as a sim owner can log into say website and have limited control over my sims via a control panel or something
[11:42] Fly Man: as Homer thought the P2P of the regions building the map
[11:42] Homer Horwitz: Hm?
[11:43] Fly Man: would be better then holding the maptiles at 1 place
[11:43] Blaksmith Rubble: I'm sure the p2p setup of the maps is good for easing the bandwidht on the main asset server
[11:43] Homer Horwitz: Well, *fetching* the maptiles from the regions distributes the load. Fetching them from a central map-tile store will need a big pipe alone for the map.
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: yea having them at 1 place will definatly make it faster
[11:43] Homer Horwitz: Slower?
[11:43] Nebadon Izumi: my only concern was converting centraly
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: if we could pull the preconverted image from the regions to cache
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: then that would be awesome
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: sold alot of issues
[11:44] Fly Man: Well, I was thinking about a tile service
[11:44] Fly Man: that the regions can activate
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: sold=solve
[11:44] Fly Man: that shifts the regions map tile over the network
[11:44] Fly Man: if a region isn't online
[11:44] Nebadon Izumi: im just wary of having osgrid have a central server thats caching and converting map tiles all day long
[11:44] Fly Man: another region near it will still have the map tile for it
[11:44] Homer Horwitz: Nebadon: I've no idea about the bandwidth of the pipe OSGrid is attached to...
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its pretty fast
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: its Level 3 network
[11:45] Blaksmith Rubble: on that one, I vote that it stays "per region" .. not centralized
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: i think its atleats 100mb
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: minimum
[11:45] Nebadon Izumi: there are no real slow networks on Level 3
[11:45] Fly Man: Well, this was a thought of me
[11:46] Fly Man: Is it possible to "detect" what regions are near your own region
[11:46] Blaksmith Rubble: but, not everyone is on a lvl 3 network
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi: no but is
[11:46] Fly Man: so does a region "know" who his neighbours are ?
[11:46] Nebadon Izumi:
[11:46] Blaksmith Rubble: too bad my remote server won't run os ... it's on a nice fat pipe
[11:47] Fly Man: because then I think the region itself will be a node for the map tiles
[11:47] Fly Man: if the region next to you isn't online
[11:47] Fly Man: provide the maptile for it from your own cache
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: my concern isnt bandwidth
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: its cpu cycles converting map tiles
[11:47] Nebadon Izumi: in a limited hardware situation
[11:47] Fly Man: True
[11:48] Fly Man: but when a region server comes online
[11:48] Fly Man: "hits" the grid server
[11:48] Fly Man: the grid server checks if it's available
[11:48] Blaksmith Rubble: but, then again, aren't the tiles stored as a UUID in the asset server?
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: yes a jp2000
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: we need jpeg
[11:48] Fly Man: after that, the grid server could get a JPG tile from the server
[11:48] Nebadon Izumi: hence the conversion
[11:48] Fly Man: and save that somewhere
[11:48] Fly Man: but the trick is
[11:49] Fly Man: that would mean that the gridserver hosts the tiles
[11:49] Blaksmith Rubble: each region cache the 16 or so regions around em?
[11:49] Fly Man: and that it will have a lot tiles
[11:49] Fly Man: when it's busy processing a request
[11:49] Fly Man: it will slow down
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: yea its alot of tiles and alot of processing when we are talking about 5000 sims
[11:49] Hiro Protagonist: ok peeps - I gotta duck out for a bit - dont have too much fun without meh ;)
[11:49] Hiro Protagonist: Neb I'll get with ya later about the search cron
[11:49] BlueWall Slade: see ya Hiro
[11:49] Nebadon Izumi: ok later man
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: whenever your ready
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: we'll get it working
[11:50] Blaksmith Rubble: c-ya Hiro
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: Blue, I needs ta talk with you later on -money
[11:50] Fly Man: Laterz Hiro
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist waves
[11:50] BlueWall Slade: ok
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist: bye for now :D
[11:50] Hiro Protagonist is Offline
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: so yea on a small grid it wont make much impact
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: but im looking down the road
[11:50] Nebadon Izumi: when osgrid is 5 times the size it is now
[11:50] Fly Man: but can a region server itself cache the JPG's around him
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: hmm i guess it could be made too
[11:51] Fly Man: because then you would have a region that doesn't respond
[11:51] Fly Man: "broadcast" the UUID
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: right now only the simulator itself stores the jpg image in memory
[11:51] Nebadon Izumi: its not ever written to DB
[11:51] Blaksmith Rubble: heck, it's already caching ip addy's and not releaseing them when a sim drops and comes back up .. (proven with 2 different manits entries.. one from me, and one form someone else)
[11:51] Fly Man: and get back the info from 1 of the regions nearby
[11:52] Torrance Miles: geographical grid proximity is not equal to network proximity, is Grid proximity the best way to go about caching?
[11:52] BlueWall Slade: can we make a quick mention of ?
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: sure Blue have at it
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: i guess the lindens were busy today
[11:52] Fly Man: Is that the HG issue ?
[11:52] Nebadon Izumi: probably will be until after the holidays
[11:53] BlueWall Slade: was hoping Whump would be here
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: yea he may be lingering in IRC i saw him join IRC right as the metting begun
[11:53] Homer Horwitz: He's on IRC
[11:53] BlueWall Slade: it is an issue with the viewer
[11:53] whump: Hey, I'm listening, been in meetings.
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: so maybe he'll respond
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: there he is
[11:53] Nebadon Izumi: :)
[11:53] philippeD quits saying ":"Ex-Chat""
[11:53] Fly Man: :)
[11:53] whump: So I have an update.
[11:53] BlueWall Slade: Hi whump
[11:53] philippeD joins #osgrid-wp
[11:53] whump: We've taken it into triage, to see what level of effort will be required.
[11:53] BlueWall Slade: ok, diva and I went to the OpenSource meeting yesterday and brought up the issue
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: ok, nice
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: I was going to ask if i needed to file against the viewer instead of svc
[11:54] whump: So I'll report back next week with an update.
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: so, thanks - that was it just seeing what we neet to do
[11:54] BlueWall Slade: thank you very much
[11:55] Fly Man: whump, will Babage be joining us next week ?
[11:56] whump: I don't know. It's best to ask him directly since he's eight hours ahead of me.
[11:56] BlueWall Slade: whump, if you need anything from us - give a shout, & thanks :)
[11:56] Fly Man: Okay, will try to grab his coat when he's on :)
[11:56] Nebadon Izumi: ok well with the holidays quickly approaching i suspect things might slow down a bit for everyone
[11:57] Fly Man: Well, I was hoping that Melanie will help with the Classifieds
[11:57] Fly Man: to get those to work
[11:57] Fly Man: then my main issue is the User Server
[11:57] Fly Man: and the lack of "user profile"
[11:57] BlueWall Slade: I'm asking Santa for a 100MBit pipe for my reginos :D
[11:57] Nebadon Izumi: heheh
[11:58] Charles Krinkeb: 2 engineers came in my office just as the meeting got going <sigh>.
[11:58] Fly Man: because my wish for 2009 is:
[11:58] Fly Man: To have a user profile that shows a better date and more things then just 1-1-1970 00:00:00
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: hehe yea
[11:58] Fly Man: So maybe Santa will be nice for us ;)
[11:58] Blaksmith Rubble: heheh.. that rez date makes me feel a few years younger than I actually am LOL
[11:58] Nebadon Izumi: i suppose we'll have to figure something out for everyone already signed up
[11:59] Fly Man: Well, we have the original date for ppl that signed up
[11:59] Fly Man: we just didn't implement something "permanent"
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: ah yea
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: thats true
[11:59] Fly Man: and I think Sdague could help with that
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: there might be some people on this grid that dont have that info
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: im not sure
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: some of the accounts here are really really old
[11:59] Fly Man: Then, they will be at 1-1-1970 ;)
[11:59] Nebadon Izumi: yea
[12:00] Blaksmith Rubble: yah, I"m sure the database upon sign-up on the web page has when someone created their acct
[12:00] Nebadon Izumi: we could probably set that for something more realistic though
[12:00] Fly Man: But a working User Profile would be nice
[12:00] Fly Man: then Picks and Classifieds can be held
[12:00] BlueWall Slade: hehe, back when OpenSim ran on vacuum tubes and punch cards
[12:00] Fly Man: so Charles, can I suggest a point for 0.7 ?
[12:00] Blaksmith Rubble: lol
[12:01] Fly Man: as you're the Admin for Mantis
[12:01] Charles Krinkeb: sure
[12:01] Nebadon Izumi: rofl
[12:01] Fly Man: "A working User Server that can hold Picks, Classifieds and Groups"
[12:01] Fly Man: and the "normal" stuff that a profile would contain
[12:01] Charles Krinkeb: absolutely. that is one of the key things that will send us off into the stratosphere. That is, all of us, all the grids.
[12:02] Fly Man: There is also a Mantis still open
[12:02] Fly Man: as a hanger for more then 1 thing
[12:02] Fly Man: maybe we can use that one for the 0.7 release
[12:02] Fly Man: if you can mark it "use for 0.7"
[12:02] Charles Krinkeb: # ?
[12:03] Fly Man: 2476
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: wowsers
[12:03] Fly Man: that one was made out of 5 other Mantises
[12:03] Charles Krinkeb: k
[12:03] BlueWall Slade: also, shouldn't we have a stable binary that wil talk to the OSGrid UGAIM?
[12:03] Charles Krinkeb: I thought we did have a stable binary
[12:03] Justin Clark-Casey: hey good point - maybe it's worth releasing a special osgrid binary
[12:03] Homer Horwitz: Yep, but none that can talk to OSGrid.
[12:04] Fly Man: Huh ?
[12:04] BlueWall Slade: the wiki says that it doesn't connect to OSGrid
[12:04] Fly Man: I thought the one on the OSgrid website works ?
[12:04] Charles Krinkeb: I would argue that the general purpose binary should talk to OSGrid, or any other grid using OpenSim from svn.
[12:04] Homer Horwitz: Well, that's a bit difficult, no? Either OSGrid will be stable (not trunk), or trunk (then the stable release won't work).
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: well, everyone was keen to stop regions with incompatible interfaces from logging on
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: so now that is physically prevented
[12:04] Fly Man: Yes
[12:05] Fly Man: and it says everywhere on the website, inworld, etc
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: we have our own release
[12:05] Fly Man: so ppl would know
[12:05] BlueWall Slade: it should be be able to pass the level test for whatever head is
[12:05] Justin Clark-Casey: to be honest, if you're following trunk on the grid then that's gonna happen
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i update it constantly
[12:05] Fly Man: I always ask Nebadon to update the version on the website
[12:05] Fly Man: for the Q&A hours on Saturday
[12:05] Charles Krinkeb: OSGrid tries to use the latest "functional" svn. Thats one of the key points of OSGrid.
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: yea i update it every couple of days
[12:05] Fly Man: so that one should work with OSgrid
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: i try to keep the osgrid binary close to svn unless things go really bad
[12:05] Nebadon Izumi: then i lock it up for a bit
[12:06] BlueWall Slade: and it's on the OSGrid site?
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yes sir
[12:06] Homer Horwitz: Ah, ok. Not the 0.6 release then.
[12:06] Fly Man: Uhm, yes
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: downloads section
[12:06] BlueWall Slade: ok, thanks
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: if you ever want it updated just ping me
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: i'll try to get a new revision posted within a few hours
[12:06] Homer Horwitz: I thought you meant our 0.6-stable branch
[12:06] Fly Man: Homer, no
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: yea stable wont connect
[12:06] BlueWall Slade: Hiro's brother was trying to connect and he was telling me tha tit wouldn't
[12:06] Nebadon Izumi: unfortuantly
[12:06] Fly Man: the stable branch won't connect
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: its prior to 7304
[12:07] Homer Horwitz: That's what I meant :)
[12:07] Fly Man: the "OSGrid specific" one will connect
[12:07] Charles Krinkeb: 0.6 stable has breaking changes as ugaim changed soon after that release.
[12:07] BlueWall Slade: so, I'll know where to send ppl - thanks
[12:07] Mikelo Serevi: I was getting an error that the version was wrong when I tried to connect with the svn version
[12:07] Fly Man: Blue, that version also has Search enabled
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats been a bit complicating, but most people testing opensim for the 1st time look at you like your speaking chinese when you ask them if they used svn
[12:07] BlueWall Slade: could the changes be back-ported to stable?
[12:07] Fly Man: so ppl will be enabled as well :)
[12:07] Nebadon Izumi: alot of people just have no clue what svn even is
[12:07] Homer Horwitz: BlueWall: No way.
[12:08] BlueWall Slade: ok
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: generally if you do getting opensim working isnt a problem
[12:08] Homer Horwitz: Not without making stable unstable ;)
[12:08] BlueWall Slade: hehe, ok
[12:08] Fly Man: Well, we talked about making a :"stable" release
[12:08] Fly Man: after Adam and Tedd made changes
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: someone did note on the wiki that its not osgrid compatible
[12:08] Fly Man: that was 2 weeks ago
[12:08] Nebadon Izumi: the stable branch
[12:09] Fly Man: Did we drop that idea in the last week ?
[12:09] Charles Krinkeb: I believe it is still reasonable to say "the price of playing poker in this game is you need to be conversant with the tools for svn, compilation and configuration"
[12:09] Fly Man: or are we still using that topolgy ?
[12:09] Homer Horwitz: charles: +1
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: yea thats why its best to point those folk to the osgrid binary
[12:09] Nebadon Izumi: anyone who stares at you blankly when you say svn
[12:09] Blaksmith Rubble: hehe
[12:09] Homer Horwitz: Fly: I guess we might be able to reach a stable state in a few weeks.
[12:09] Homer Horwitz: Months, latest.
[12:10] Homer Horwitz: Around june, crossing should work again :P
[12:10] Fly Man: Ghehehe
[12:10] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[12:10] Fly Man: I was hoping more like before Christmas a release that works
[12:10] BlueWall Slade: woah, lol
[12:10] Fly Man: and one we can call stable
[12:10] Fly Man: that would be a good idea ;)
[12:10] Homer Horwitz: ROTFL.
[12:10] BlueWall Slade: I was thinking that script-crossing was working
[12:10] Charles Krinkeb: As we continue to get more and more new users, getting them compiling is more challenging, but as long as we can keep our testers and users engaged in software development, we will have a better product.
[12:10] Fly Man: Then people don't need to be working at Christmas Day can play on OpenSim ;)
[12:10] BlueWall Slade: it was a lot of fun trying to sail in Hiro's boat with that :)
[12:11] BlueWall Slade: we need some snowball fights :)
[12:11] Fly Man: Well, I have some Mantises to run by you all
[12:11] Fly Man: if that's okay
[12:11] Fly Man: as I think they're already finished off
[12:11] Fly Man:
[12:12] Fly Man: I thought this was implemented recently ?
[12:12] Richardus Raymaker is Online
[12:12] Homer Horwitz: It was?
[12:12] Fly Man: Uhm, yes ?
[12:12] Charles Krinkeb: All I need to close a Mantis is "half a hint that it now works" and I'm off and "resolving".
[12:12] Fly Man: that's why I ask ?
[12:12] Homer Horwitz: Ah, you said "I thought", so I thought you have more info about it.
[12:13] Charles Krinkeb: resolve 2469 ?
[12:13] Fly Man: Well, i've seen some "messages" in the region server that showed the right values
[12:13] Fly Man: but haven't seen them after 7290
[12:13] Blaksmith Rubble: my feet don't go into the floor in my sims anymore
[12:13] Homer Horwitz: Well, I guess accrording to the wording it is done.
[12:13] Blaksmith Rubble: I'm a few inches (or cm) above the ground, but that's acceptable
[12:13] Homer Horwitz: You won't see the message anymore.
[12:14] Fly Man p
[12:14] sacha Magne: did u get disconnected from the regionserver without notice ?
[12:14] Fly Man: No, it's the "explaining" message
[12:14] Homer Horwitz: I'm quite sure the *function* isn't implemented.
[12:14] Fly Man: I ran all the tests in the client
[12:14] Homer Horwitz: Because it mainly is used for interest lists (finding out what a viewer can see).
[12:14] Homer Horwitz: (if I remember correctly)
[12:14] Fly Man: and all the errors that I found are on the Mantis
[12:14] Fly Man: with the info that it gives back
[12:15] sacha Magne: the regionserver said the viewer didn't reply to ping and close the connection serveside
[12:15] Fly Man: Homer, this one I hope you can tell me more about
[12:15] Fly Man:
[12:15] Fly Man: RetrieveInstantMessages
[12:15] Richardus Raymaker is Online
[12:16] Fly Man: as I thought this was resolved when Friends module worked
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: does anybody know if grid inventory transfer works?
[12:16] Homer Horwitz: No idea. That's for retrieveing stored IMs.
[12:16] Freeview 1.2 + Youtube Player: Welcome to FreeView - your free, open-source television!
[12:16] sacha Magne: justoin ? hg ?
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: eg. if two people are on regions on entirely separate parts of the grid
[12:16] Justin Clark-Casey: nah, just ordinary grid mode
[12:16] Homer Horwitz: Not much to do with Friends. Except that offline friend offers are stored IMs too.
[12:17] sacha Magne: dunno, i don't think it work
[12:17] Fly Man: Okay, then I will keep it open for now
[12:17] Blaksmith Rubble: I know inventory transfer works on the same sim at least now
[12:17] Fly Man: And there's 2 messages that are related to the Mute List
[12:17] Charles Krinkeb: Put a note on any Mantis that anyone feels is resolved, assign it to me if possible, or just let me know via IRC or email and I will resolve and then close a week later.
[12:17] Fly Man: any suggestions / ideas ?
[12:17] Justin Clark-Casey: yep, same sim does - I suspect grid doest nof rom looking at the code
[12:17] Richardus Raymaker: i need a LM so i can try HG.
[12:18] Justin Clark-Casey: but I was a little surprised it appeared to work on my test grid setup - though the regions are right next to each other - possibly that might pla y a role
[12:18] Homer Horwitz: Yep
[12:18] Homer Horwitz: If you have a child in the region, it probably works, too.
[12:18] Homer Horwitz: Didn't look at the inv-transfer, but if it is a system-IM, too, it will work with a child, I think.
[12:19] Blaksmith Rubble: fly, maybe we can try after this meeting
[12:19] Taoki joins #osgrid-wp
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: mmm, according to the code it shouldn't - but I might be missing something
[12:19] Justin Clark-Casey: thanks Homer
[12:19] Homer Horwitz: Not sure about it :)
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: okay, I'm gonna go
[12:20] Fly Man: k
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: ok Justin
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: see you folks later
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: great meeting this week
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: not to much fuss from the sim
[12:20] Blaksmith Rubble: ok, c-ya JCC
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: nice and relaxed, I thought :)
[12:20] Charles Krinkeb: The best part is the region held up.
[12:20] Fly Man: Charles, can you add HyperGrid to the Mantis as a Category ?
[12:20] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah,. sim isn't too bad as long as you don't walk about ;)
[12:20] Homer Horwitz: Yep, I'm hoping out, too. See you in IRC...
[12:20] Nebadon Izumi: ok thanks everyone for coming
[12:20] Charles Krinkeb: I dont know how to change categories, but I'll chat with others and see.
[12:21] Fly Man: Thank you :)
[12:21] BlueWall Slade: thanks everybody! nice meeting.
[12:21] Fly Man: also from Diva :)
[12:21] Charles Krinkeb: got it.
[12:21] Homer Horwitz waves and poofs.
[12:21] Charles Krinkeb: I need to go pretend I'm working by heading to the lab and reading my new 'Kindle"
[12:21] Blaksmith Rubble: other than me fighting bandwidht because someone kept slamming my sim log in, log out, in , out, et.. it did handle well
[12:22] Fly Man: Good luck Charles :)
[12:22] Justin Clark-Casey is Offline
[12:22] Blaksmith Rubble: hehehe
[12:22] Charles Krinkeb: Which has "C# The Complete Reference" loaded into it *and* will search.
[12:22] Richardus Raymaker: that sounds bad blaksmith
[12:22] Blaksmith Rubble is pretending to be working while here at the meeting lol
[12:22] Charles Krinkeb is Offline
[12:22] justincc parts #osgrid-wp
[12:23] Sydney Idealist: meeting over?
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: we can keep chatting
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: its very casual
[12:23] Nebadon Izumi: but yea it normally runs 1 hour
[12:23] Blaksmith Rubble: wow, mega re-route to my remote server...
[12:23] Blaksmith Rubble: 5 new ip addresses just popped in on the traceroute
[12:24] HomerH parts #osgrid-wp

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