[Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long

Sun Jul 11 00:18:10 UTC 2010

Please let me clarify, because this whole discussion is being taken out of
context.

At no point did I EVER call anyone on this thread, or that is a part of the
OpenSim Community "stupid".

My exact words were:

*>> Seems pretty foolish.  Stupid people do stupid things.*

I was referring to NYC college kids spending $100,000 on a "Facebook Clone".

A simple Google search could display at least 1,000+ examples of "Facebook
Clones" that are freely available (that probably could have been updated or
modified).  Not sure that $100,000 was needed to create yet another one.

Just because Facebook changed their Privacy Settings, doesn't mean they
needed to go to the extreme and say "Hey, we all need to band together and
try to create a new Facebook."

You'll need a LOT more than $100,000 (just on server equipment and bandwidth
alone) to even come close to where "Facebook" even is.

My only point was, I don't think that money (without even sitting down and
thinking about how that money will be spent, or even WHY we are trying to
fund raise) will "solve" our perceived "problems".

If the "problem" seems to be that we're "not moving fast enough" then what
exactly is the expectation of this one user?

Are they expecting a "finished" product?  If that's the case, then the one
user may be waiting a very very very long time, because from what I
understand... "OpenSim" is not intended to even be a "finished product"
(it's only a "core" on which other platforms will be built).

*> Not everyone will tell you to fork off. *

I do understand that some things do need to be worked on in core.  I do
understand that we should probably sit down and draw out a "road map" and at
least publicly post a "road map" (based on a timeline) and also include a
list of tasks that need to be done.  So we can at least calculate how many
man hours it would take (and then figure out the costs of doing the labor)
and then conduct a "feasibility study" just to make sure that we're not
tossing money into a hole (if we spend this money, what will be the end
result, and does it make sense to do it?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feasibility_study

Anytime you begin fund raising (or looking for sponsorship) it's at least
smart to sit down and think about the economic feasibility (cost/benefit
analysis) and determine what the smartest route will be.

If someone wants a "CryEngine" type environment, then spending $1,000,000 on
OpenSim development might not be the best solution, especially when you
factor in the cost of development time (and how long it could push a
follow-on project back) when simply buying a license for "CryEngine" (and
developing/modifying an existing stable core) might be more cost feasible.

I hate to remind everyone that we are basing "OpenSim" on a 2003 era
technology, and there are still a lot of questions in my mind about whether
we will ever "meet" the many expectations of the users that are asking for a
"finished product" (especially when "OpenSim" is only meant to be a "core"
and NOT a "finished product").

That was my whole point, and I believe those saying "Hey, we need more
money!!" have missed the whole point.

I may have sounded "extreme" but I'm just saying let's be "sensible" before
we try to fund raise.  If fund raising is the ultimate solution, then yes I
promise that I will do what I can to help bring in the funds necessary to
get the "end result" accomplished (possibly even throw in $100,000 or so of
my own money) but even $100,000 probably won't do much of anything when you
look at the over all cost of a project.

My first question is:

1) What exactly is the "end result" that we are looking for and what still
needs to be done, and is there a list of tasks that you expect to accomplish
with this "fund raising" effort?

2) How can you even create an "estimate" of what you need (as far as funds)
without even having a "task list" and without even asking the developers how
many man hours it would take to do each of those tasks (and a cost estimate
as to how much each task will cost to complete).

3) How can you even say "Let's do fund raising" without a task list, and
without even a discussion as to whether these "tasks" will even be accepted
into "OpenSim" core?  (Your efforts may not be accepted into "core" and then
what?)

4) Has anyone sat down and figured out the economic feasibility?  Will
spending $100,000 (or a $1,000,000) on a new "core" make sense?  What are
the expected end results?  Will the project even be completed before it
becomes useful?  (i.e. If it takes 4 more years to reach a point where the
"core" can do everything that we want it to do, and then another 2 years of
development to create a "finished platform" with all the features that you
want added, will spending 6 years of cash still meet the "feasibility"
schedule?  (Meaning will it even make sense, especially when 6 years from
now, it's possible that a whole new core could be written from scratch for
under a million dollars that could rival even the "Frostbite 2.x" engine?

http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,693558/DirectX-11-Frostbite-2-engine-Battlefield-uses-Compute-Shader-for-Deferred-Shading/News/

I'm not talking about the costs of developing the whole "finished product"
I'm simply talking about the costs of developing the "core" engine behind
the product.

5) Whoever is looking for this "finished product" have they looked at any
various groups (i.e. SciSim, realXtend, Diva Distro, etc.) that are working
on distributions, and have they considered which group is close to the
expectations that they are looking for in a "finished product" since OpenSim
core is NOT intended to be a "finished product"?

6) What changes in "core" are necessary, or still need to be done, in order
to justify this "substantial fund raising" effort?  What is the expected end
result?

7) The idea of "hey, let's fund raise" can be a very valid point, but let's
at least post a list of tasks that we expect to accomplish, as well as an
expected timeline, and then sit down and mull over whether this even makes
sense or not.  Is the technology that we're currently working on, going to
hit a "dead end" (or "road block") and would it make more sense to abandon
"OpenSim 1.0" and begin to look at things like "OpenSim 2.0" and maybe spend
the money on a new and improved architecture (not entirely based on Second
Life backwards compatibility).

8) Will "OpenSim" architecture ever reach the point of "maturity" that
certain individuals are expecting?  What exactly are the "user" expectations
of this "finished product"?  (OpenSim was never intended to even be a
"finished product" so it seems odd to think that "Hey OpenSim isn't done
yet?")

9) Would it make sense to begin looking at things like the "Frostbite 2.x"
core (instead of the old SL core) and begin looking at the future (and not
the 2003-era past) and begin thinking about ways to reach the performance
levels of a "2009 era" frostbite 2.x core engine) instead of a "1991 era"
Active Worlds type of engine (i.e. Second Life)

You may seem to believe that this questions are "insults" to the project (or
even developers) but on the contrary.

I think the original post was a big slap in the face to the core developers
(and that's what I was fairly upset at the original post) because it almost
seems as if "Hey you guys are not doing anything, and not moving fast enough
for what 'I' want!!"  without any real statement of what you are actually
expecting, because "OpenSim" may never even meet your "expectations").  So
post your expectations first, and then ask how much it will cost to even get
there (and whether your "expectations" will ever make it into core or not).

Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth.  I've been wrong before, if
you don't like my opinion, I'm sure I'll have another.  ;-)

God bless the "Open Source" community.  I'm just saying let's have some
intelligent discussion, before we run of waving our banners, and holding
telethons to raise "substantial" amounts of money without any real clue as
to what that money will even be used for, or where it will even go.

If I remember correctly, the "OpenSim" fund was only meant to accept up to
$1,000USD so your suggestions of "substantial amounts" of money would
contradict the original "thoughts" behind the donations behind OpenSim core.

So "where" the donations will even go, is another discussion in itself.

http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Donations

Will it go towards a improving an existing "finished product" distribution?
 (i.e. OSgrid, realXtend, Diva Distro)

I believe the original poster is looking for a "finished product" and that
is what I'm afraid is the "biggest flaw" in this whole argument, because the
original poster may never be happy, because I don't think it was the
intentions of the "core dev's" to ever make a "finished product".

Just things to mull over.  I could be wrong, and things could always change
tomorrow, but I'm just re-emphasizing what has already been discussed (over
the past 2+ years).

*> this has been a terribly aggressive response *
*> to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions.       *

My intent is to only cause people to "think" before they "act".  Post your
expectations first, and then ask "How much will it cost to get what I want."
and then I think it would be more accepted.

I'm not saying that money isn't good, but let's just spend it wisely, and
make sure that the money being "raised" is going to at least have the end
result that the original poster is expecting.

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Gary Starkweather <gstark at rustycat.com>wrote:

>  Au contraire, Jon...
>
> This exchange (including the heated or extreme bits) is testimony to the
> vitality of the OpenSimulator community.
>
> It is the nature of open communities of all sorts that discussions are
> woolly and outlier opinions approach extremes.
>
> As several have said, read the whole thread and seek out the reasonable
> posts far a better sense of common thinking - and mebbe even consensus on
> some things ;-}
>
>
>
> On 09/07/2010 8:56 AM, Jon Brouchoud wrote:
>
> I completely agree with Enslar... this has been a terribly aggressive
> response to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions.
>
>  If anyone is reading this thread, who had been thinking about getting
> involved, or how they might contribute to OpenSim in some way, I wouldn't
> blame them for thinking twice.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie <melanie at t-data.com> wrote:
>
> Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should
> be clear after reading the thread.
>
> Melanie
>
> enslerklaar at holotech.net wrote:
> >> I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it
> >> isn't).
> >
> >> Seems pretty foolish.  Stupid people do stupid things.
> >
> >> If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then
> >> at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what
> >> it is that you're trying to accomplish.
> >
> > Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with
> > OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and
> > presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion,
> > hostility and downright insults.
> >
> >> We have no clue what direction you are trying to head....
> >
> > Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the
> > consensus was "We don't really have one." Now we get people screaming
> > "DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP!"
> >
> > The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say,
> > "It's not as straightforward as you may think," but this type of
> > response is completely uncalled for.
> >
> > I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in
> > OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently
> > the best advice in this thread is "fork off".
> >
> >> Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are
> >> probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen.
> >
> > P.S. Diaspora isn't a "Facebook clone". It's an entirely different
> > approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think.
> >
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