Please let me clarify, because this whole discussion is being taken out of context.<div><br></div><div>At no point did I EVER call anyone on this thread, or that is a part of the OpenSim Community "stupid".</div>
<div><br></div><div>My exact words were:</div><div><br></div><div><b><i>>> Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things.</i></b></div><div><br>I was referring to NYC college kids spending $100,000 on a "Facebook Clone".</div>
<div><br></div><div>A simple Google search could display at least 1,000+ examples of "Facebook Clones" that are freely available (that probably could have been updated or modified). Not sure that $100,000 was needed to create yet another one.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just because Facebook changed their Privacy Settings, doesn't mean they needed to go to the extreme and say "Hey, we all need to band together and try to create a new Facebook."</div><div>
<br></div><div>You'll need a LOT more than $100,000 (just on server equipment and bandwidth alone) to even come close to where "Facebook" even is.</div><div><br></div><div>My only point was, I don't think that money (without even sitting down and thinking about how that money will be spent, or even WHY we are trying to fund raise) will "solve" our perceived "problems".</div>
<div><br></div><div>If the "problem" seems to be that we're "not moving fast enough" then what exactly is the expectation of this one user?</div><div><br></div><div>Are they expecting a "finished" product? If that's the case, then the one user may be waiting a very very very long time, because from what I understand... "OpenSim" is not intended to even be a "finished product" (it's only a "core" on which other platforms will be built).</div>
<div><br></div><div><b><i>> Not everyone will tell you to fork off. </i></b></div><div><br></div><div>I do understand that some things do need to be worked on in core. I do understand that we should probably sit down and draw out a "road map" and at least publicly post a "road map" (based on a timeline) and also include a list of tasks that need to be done. So we can at least calculate how many man hours it would take (and then figure out the costs of doing the labor) and then conduct a "feasibility study" just to make sure that we're not tossing money into a hole (if we spend this money, what will be the end result, and does it make sense to do it?)</div>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feasibility_study">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feasibility_study</a></div><div><br></div><div>Anytime you begin fund raising (or looking for sponsorship) it's at least smart to sit down and think about the economic feasibility (cost/benefit analysis) and determine what the smartest route will be.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If someone wants a "CryEngine" type environment, then spending $1,000,000 on OpenSim development might not be the best solution, especially when you factor in the cost of development time (and how long it could push a follow-on project back) when simply buying a license for "CryEngine" (and developing/modifying an existing stable core) might be more cost feasible.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I hate to remind everyone that we are basing "OpenSim" on a 2003 era technology, and there are still a lot of questions in my mind about whether we will ever "meet" the many expectations of the users that are asking for a "finished product" (especially when "OpenSim" is only meant to be a "core" and NOT a "finished product").</div>
<div><br></div><div>That was my whole point, and I believe those saying "Hey, we need more money!!" have missed the whole point.</div><div><br></div><div>I may have sounded "extreme" but I'm just saying let's be "sensible" before we try to fund raise. If fund raising is the ultimate solution, then yes I promise that I will do what I can to help bring in the funds necessary to get the "end result" accomplished (possibly even throw in $100,000 or so of my own money) but even $100,000 probably won't do much of anything when you look at the over all cost of a project.</div>
<div><br></div><div>My first question is:</div><div><br></div><div>1) What exactly is the "end result" that we are looking for and what still needs to be done, and is there a list of tasks that you expect to accomplish with this "fund raising" effort?</div>
<div><br></div><div>2) How can you even create an "estimate" of what you need (as far as funds) without even having a "task list" and without even asking the developers how many man hours it would take to do each of those tasks (and a cost estimate as to how much each task will cost to complete).</div>
<div><br></div><div>3) How can you even say "Let's do fund raising" without a task list, and without even a discussion as to whether these "tasks" will even be accepted into "OpenSim" core? (Your efforts may not be accepted into "core" and then what?)</div>
<div><br></div><div>4) Has anyone sat down and figured out the economic feasibility? Will spending $100,000 (or a $1,000,000) on a new "core" make sense? What are the expected end results? Will the project even be completed before it becomes useful? (i.e. If it takes 4 more years to reach a point where the "core" can do everything that we want it to do, and then another 2 years of development to create a "finished platform" with all the features that you want added, will spending 6 years of cash still meet the "feasibility" schedule? (Meaning will it even make sense, especially when 6 years from now, it's possible that a whole new core could be written from scratch for under a million dollars that could rival even the "Frostbite 2.x" engine?</div>
<div><br></div><div><a href="http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,693558/DirectX-11-Frostbite-2-engine-Battlefield-uses-Compute-Shader-for-Deferred-Shading/News/">http://www.pcgameshardware.com/aid,693558/DirectX-11-Frostbite-2-engine-Battlefield-uses-Compute-Shader-for-Deferred-Shading/News/</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm not talking about the costs of developing the whole "finished product" I'm simply talking about the costs of developing the "core" engine behind the product.</div><div><br>
</div><div>5) Whoever is looking for this "finished product" have they looked at any various groups (i.e. SciSim, realXtend, Diva Distro, etc.) that are working on distributions, and have they considered which group is close to the expectations that they are looking for in a "finished product" since OpenSim core is NOT intended to be a "finished product"?</div>
<div><br></div><div>6) What changes in "core" are necessary, or still need to be done, in order to justify this "substantial fund raising" effort? What is the expected end result?</div><div><br></div>
<div>7) The idea of "hey, let's fund raise" can be a very valid point, but let's at least post a list of tasks that we expect to accomplish, as well as an expected timeline, and then sit down and mull over whether this even makes sense or not. Is the technology that we're currently working on, going to hit a "dead end" (or "road block") and would it make more sense to abandon "OpenSim 1.0" and begin to look at things like "OpenSim 2.0" and maybe spend the money on a new and improved architecture (not entirely based on Second Life backwards compatibility).</div>
<div><br></div><div>8) Will "OpenSim" architecture ever reach the point of "maturity" that certain individuals are expecting? What exactly are the "user" expectations of this "finished product"? (OpenSim was never intended to even be a "finished product" so it seems odd to think that "Hey OpenSim isn't done yet?")</div>
<div><br></div><div>9) Would it make sense to begin looking at things like the "Frostbite 2.x" core (instead of the old SL core) and begin looking at the future (and not the 2003-era past) and begin thinking about ways to reach the performance levels of a "2009 era" frostbite 2.x core engine) instead of a "1991 era" Active Worlds type of engine (i.e. Second Life)</div>
<div><br></div><div>You may seem to believe that this questions are "insults" to the project (or even developers) but on the contrary.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the original post was a big slap in the face to the core developers (and that's what I was fairly upset at the original post) because it almost seems as if "Hey you guys are not doing anything, and not moving fast enough for what 'I' want!!" without any real statement of what you are actually expecting, because "OpenSim" may never even meet your "expectations"). So post your expectations first, and then ask how much it will cost to even get there (and whether your "expectations" will ever make it into core or not).</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth. I've been wrong before, if you don't like my opinion, I'm sure I'll have another. ;-)</div><div><br></div><div>God bless the "Open Source" community. I'm just saying let's have some intelligent discussion, before we run of waving our banners, and holding telethons to raise "substantial" amounts of money without any real clue as to what that money will even be used for, or where it will even go.</div>
<div><br></div><div>If I remember correctly, the "OpenSim" fund was only meant to accept up to $1,000USD so your suggestions of "substantial amounts" of money would contradict the original "thoughts" behind the donations behind OpenSim core.</div>
<div><br></div><div>So "where" the donations will even go, is another discussion in itself.</div><div><br></div><div><a href="http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Donations">http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Donations</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>Will it go towards a improving an existing "finished product" distribution? (i.e. OSgrid, realXtend, Diva Distro)</div><div><br></div><div>I believe the original poster is looking for a "finished product" and that is what I'm afraid is the "biggest flaw" in this whole argument, because the original poster may never be happy, because I don't think it was the intentions of the "core dev's" to ever make a "finished product".</div>
<div><br></div><div>Just things to mull over. I could be wrong, and things could always change tomorrow, but I'm just re-emphasizing what has already been discussed (over the past 2+ years).</div><div><br></div><div>
<b><i>> this has been a terribly aggressive response </i></b></div><div><b><i>> to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions. </i></b></div><div><br></div><div>My intent is to only cause people to "think" before they "act". Post your expectations first, and then ask "How much will it cost to get what I want." and then I think it would be more accepted.</div>
<div><br></div><div>I'm not saying that money isn't good, but let's just spend it wisely, and make sure that the money being "raised" is going to at least have the end result that the original poster is expecting.</div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 10, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Gary Starkweather <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:gstark@rustycat.com">gstark@rustycat.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<span><span>Au contraire</span></span>,
Jon...<br>
<br>
This exchange (including the heated or extreme bits) is testimony to
the vitality of the OpenSimulator community.<br>
<br>
It is the nature of open communities of all sorts that discussions are
woolly and outlier opinions approach extremes.<br>
<br>
As several have said, read the whole thread and seek out the reasonable
posts far a better sense of common thinking - and mebbe even consensus
on some things ;-} <br><div><div></div><div class="h5">
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 09/07/2010 8:56 AM, Jon Brouchoud wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>I completely agree with Enslar... this has been a terribly
aggressive response to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions.
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If anyone is reading this thread, who had been thinking about
getting involved, or how they might contribute to OpenSim in some way,
I wouldn't blame them for thinking twice. </div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie <span><<a href="mailto:melanie@t-data.com" target="_blank">melanie@t-data.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote>Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is
approachable should<br>
be clear after reading the thread.<br>
<br>
Melanie<br>
<div>
<div><br>
<a href="mailto:enslerklaar@holotech.net" target="_blank">enslerklaar@holotech.net</a>
wrote:<br>
>> I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is
(and what it<br>
>> isn't).<br>
><br>
>> Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things.<br>
><br>
>> If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money,
then<br>
>> at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on
what<br>
>> it is that you're trying to accomplish.<br>
><br>
> Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with<br>
> OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and<br>
> presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion,<br>
> hostility and downright insults.<br>
><br>
>> We have no clue what direction you are trying to head....<br>
><br>
> Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the<br>
> consensus was "We don't really have one." Now we get people
screaming<br>
> "DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP!"<br>
><br>
> The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to
say,<br>
> "It's not as straightforward as you may think," but this type of<br>
> response is completely uncalled for.<br>
><br>
> I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money
in<br>
> OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it;
apparently<br>
> the best advice in this thread is "fork off".<br>
><br>
>> Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are<br>
>> probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen.<br>
><br>
> P.S. Diaspora isn't a "Facebook clone". It's an entirely different<br>
> approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think.<br>
><br>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<pre><fieldset></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Opensim-dev mailing list
<a href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de" target="_blank">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a>
<a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Opensim-dev mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de">Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev" target="_blank">https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>