Chat log from the meeting on 2014-05-27

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[11:00]  Region found!
[11:00]  Region found!
[11:00]  Mata Hari: hi Dan
[11:00]  Teleport completed from https://osgrid/region/Sandbox%20Plaza/203/38/22
[11:00]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:00]  Connected
[11:00]  Richardus Raymaker: hi all
[11:00]  dan banner: hey rich
[11:01]  Connecting to in-world Voice Chat...
[11:01]  Connected
[11:01]  Dev Random: How may avs does it take to overheat my laptop? Fan quit.... 73 deg now....
[11:01]  dan banner: better get some canned air
[11:01]  TBG Renfold: not many by the sounds of it :P
[11:01]  Mata Hari: I could pile on a ton of mesh if you'd like to really roast it
[11:02]  Dev Random: brb with Ragegast
[11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi folks
[11:03]  Mata Hari: hi Justin
[11:03]  TBG Renfold: hiya
[11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: this is one of those days where I'm being pulled in at least 2 different directions at once
[11:03]  Sarah Kline: hiyas
[11:03]  dan banner: heya justin
[11:03]  Mata Hari: competing teams of horses.....being drawn and quartered?
[11:03]  Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: mentally, it sometimes feels like it :)
[11:04]  Nebadon Izumi is Online
[11:04]  TBG Renfold: had that last week on a project, everyone wanted a piece of me at once
[11:05]  Nebs Metal Bar Stool v1.5 (w/sit & launch): Hello Nebadon Izumi, enjoy your sit..
[11:05]  Nebadon Izumi: hello everyone
[11:05]  Mata Hari waves
[11:05]  TBG Renfold: hi
[11:05]  dan banner: hey neb
[11:05]  Sarah Kline: hello
[11:06]  Richardus Raymaker: hi neb
[11:06]  dan banner: had an issue crop up last night, not sure how isolated it is but it probably needs to be fixed before the release
[11:06]  dan banner: robert is aware of it
[11:06]  dan banner:
[11:06]  Justin Clark-Casey: oh man, that's so not what I like to hear ;)
[11:07]  dan banner: ya me either
[11:08]  Mata Hari: what's the issue?
[11:08]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think it was always going to be the case that as more people tested 0.8, bulletsim issues were going to come up
[11:08]  Mata Hari: lag.....
[11:09]  dan banner: mata from what robert said it has to do with linked mesh/sculpted objects
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: what I may well do is put RC2 out soon and then just add in necessary bulletsim fixes
[11:09]  Justin Clark-Casey: otherwise this just drags out indefinitely
[11:09]  dan banner: ya
[11:09]  dan banner: RC2 would be good
[11:09]  dan banner: and by a little time for robert
[11:09]  Mata Hari: yeah....I meant "lag" in that I asked what the issue was, then you posted the link, then my chat message got printe
[11:09]  dan banner: buy*
[11:10]  dan banner: oh your lag got lagged?
[11:10]  Mata Hari: yes "p
[11:10]  dan banner: ok
[11:10]  Justin Clark-Casey: other than buletsim issues, I think we're pretty much there but I might not get time to push it through today
[11:11]  Mata Hari: there was a patch that someone posted in my Mantis that has a fix for debug line numbers....might be worth including it if it's "good"
[11:11]  dan banner: the user that had that exception was last attempting to track down which object it was so perhaps we can use it to help reproduce the exception
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I will look at that. Really want to avoid much more since every bug fix is unfortunately also a potential regression
[11:12]  Justin Clark-Casey: which might not get picked up until months down the line
[11:12]  Mata Hari nods
[11:13]  Mata Hari: and since Diva seems to be becoming somewhat active again, it would be really nice if she'd take a moment to fix all those HG friends issues
[11:13]  Richardus Raymaker: you better hang this somewhere around.
[11:13]  dan banner: for the most part i think bullet is doing pretty well
[11:14]  Dahlia Trimble is Online
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it' also has vastly better performance from my experience
[11:14]  dan banner: yup
[11:14]  Justin Clark-Casey: with ODE, if you make a couple of moderately complex objects physical the physcis frame times leap up
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: but of course, ODE will be present for a long, long time as a fallback, if not forever
[11:15]  dan banner: the only other major issue i have seen is the collision bug
[11:15]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I've seen discussion of that on and off
[11:16]  Dev Random: actually, I have 100MB of physics logs for radams from a regions where the collisions have stopped working
[11:16]  Justin Clark-Casey: I'm still confused as to whether it was isolated to bullet only or is actually a general issue
[11:16]  dan banner: ya it kind of ruins things like teleporters, etc
[11:16]  Mata Hari: oh....that reminds me.....@Robert, if you want some fun tp to Sandbox Plaza II and *walk out....the orange bits of the landing platform are very slightly raised (maybe 0.1m) and unless you approach them at 90 degress you can get stuck
[11:16]  dan banner: i switched lbsa back to ode and the teleporters have not failed
[11:17]  dan banner: on bullet they would break after 12 to 24 hrs
[11:17]  Mata Hari belatedly realizes that Robert isn't here :p
[11:17]  Dahlia Trimble waves
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: heh
[11:17]  Justin Clark-Casey: hi dahlia
[11:17]  TBG Renfold: lol
[11:17]  TBG Renfold: there was me looking around as well lol
[11:18]  Mata Hari: I was there yesterday and wondered if Dan had added a force field there or something
[11:18]  dan banner: there where?
[11:18]  Mata Hari: Sandbox II
[11:18]  dan banner: ahh
[11:18]  dan banner: the teleporter?
[11:19]  dan banner: oh
[11:19]  dan banner: nvm
[11:19]  Mata Hari: yes, I just tped in and tried to walk out onto the stuck on the orange thingies
[11:19]  dan banner: ya
[11:19]  Dev Random: flypaper
[11:19]  Mata Hari: and they're barely most 0.1m
[11:19]  dan banner: small edges are still a little problematic
[11:20]  Richardus Raymaker: hmm
[11:20]  dan banner: just need bigger steps lol
[11:20]  Sarah Kline: wear flat shoes instead of stillettos
[11:20]  Mata Hari: I was barefoot at the time :p
[11:21]  Mata Hari: @Justin: I've been watching the inventory fetch closely the last little while and it might be just a coincidence but if I expand all folders when the fetch gets stuck the ones that are invariably incomplete are the V3 ones.....the #Firestorm AO folder and the Outfit folder.....ones where the contents are entirely "links" to other inventory items.....maybe that will help to track it down when you tackle that
[11:21]  Sarah Kline: i cant say I've had a problem though
[11:21]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: It would surprise me if there's a correlation but I'll bear it in mind
[11:22]  Justin Clark-Casey: it is true that such requests generate a few more inventory calls but that should be swamped by all the others going on
[11:22]  Mata Hari: maybe a race condition?
[11:23]  Mata Hari: and that's how it gets "stuck"
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: My chief susppicion is that the number of inventory calls is overwhelming the inventory service, making it either reply very slowly or some requests timeout
[11:23]  Justin Clark-Casey: then the throttling signals the server would give to the viewer don't really work properly, so the re-requests are never made
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: there's a complex mechanism behind this, which is why it's not an easy fix
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: though I could be wrong, but won't know until I've inveistgafed this possibliity
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: in other situations, the inventory service may not be so heavily loaded and so others don't see ths issue
[11:24]  Mata Hari: seems like a distinct possibility
[11:24]  Justin Clark-Casey: or I might be barking up the wrong tree entirely
[11:25]  Mata Hari: I find it curious that my AO folder needs to be fetched at all, though, since I haven't made any changes to its contents in months
[11:25]  Justin Clark-Casey: I believe some viewres are very aggressive with inventory fetch
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: for AO viewer reasons, I've heard - though I don't know the fine detail
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: something to do with them requiring a certain asset which they know is linked in the inventory somrewhere but they don't know where, so they have to fetch the whole thing....
[11:26]  Dahlia Trimble: Im not all that familiar with inventory, but I thought part of http inventory was to do bulk transactions; that many folders and items could be sent to the viewer in a single request?
[11:26]  Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: yeah - not sure how much that facility is used
[11:27]  Mata Hari: there is a timing component to it never happens in a Plaza (or in SL)
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: could be because they have very good connections to inventory service
[11:28]  Justin Clark-Casey: but I'm theoriizing
[11:28]  Mata Hari: some in some way the region server is involved
[11:29]  Mata Hari: (which surprises me a little....I would have thought inventory fetch was a transaction between the viewer and the login or asset server rather than passing through the region server
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think it's to do with the requets from the region simulator to the service
[11:29]  Justin Clark-Casey: which is why in stats you see the number of requests pile up
[11:30]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: THey are proxied throug hthe simulator, llike many requests
[11:30]  Mata Hari: ah
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: I wonder if there is any real need to proxy them at all
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: why would the region need to be involved?
[11:31]  Dahlia Trimble: other than legacy code
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: there are experimental ways to go direct to inventory service, I can't remember the security implications of such
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: at least, I think there are, right Neb?
[11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: technical you would say its safer if the viewer conenct straight to ribust. but...
[11:32]  Justin Clark-Casey: it also puts more load on the inventory service directly since theat needs to handle more logic, CAPS, etc.
[11:32]  Billy.Bradshaw mata: you could try switching off HTTP inventory on the viewer, see if that makes a difference
[11:32]  Richardus Raymaker: thats the bad side
[11:33]  Justin Clark-Casey: mata: do you have http inventory disabled?
[11:33]  Mata Hari: or at least maybe add some way to re-start it via a console command if it gets stuck...anything to not get into perpetual mess since you can't change outfits until it finishes loading that folder
[11:33]  Mata Hari: I have tried both ways
[11:33]  Dahlia Trimble: the inventory server needs to be involved anyway unless the region is able to cache somehow
[11:33]  Mata Hari: currently I have it enabled
[11:33]  Billy.Bradshaw mata: noted
[11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: I believe the region needs to be involved for UDP inventory or for setting up CAPS
[11:34]  Dahlia Trimble: but once the CAPS are set...
[11:35]  Dahlia Trimble: anyway I'm just curious, not suggesing a rewrite
[11:36]  Justin Clark-Casey always treats all suggestions as demands for a rewrite ;)
[11:36]  Mata Hari: lol
[11:36]  Dahlia Trimble: ok well then I expected it committed by next tuesday :P
[11:37]  dan banner: with viewer source too ;p
[11:37]  Richardus Raymaker: 3.. 2.. 1..
[11:37]  Mata Hari: and fully tested and debugged by Thurdays :p
[11:38]  Justin Clark-Casey: ha
[11:38]  Mata Hari: in general, though, once you manage to get logged in with inventory it's pretty darn stable and smooth
[11:39]  Dahlia Trimble: sometimes takes several minutes for my AO to start up
[11:39]  Annabelle Fanshaw is Online
[11:40]  Caro Fayray: i always log into the sandbox then it loads fast and once done is fine
[11:40]  Mata Hari: though I think FS has a new bug.....if you log in very high in the air your legs get stuck in "flying" animation
[11:41]  Mata Hari: I do too, when I didn't last log out stark naked :p
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: I think these are also issues with a "p2p" approach. You have to somehow avoid one "bad" node from causing problems with the session
[11:41]  Caro Fayray: ah lol
[11:41]  Justin Clark-Casey: and the LL protocol wasn't built for that scenario, as they have all their services in the same high performance data centres. I should thinik
[11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks is Online
[11:42]  Andrew Hellershanks: Almost missed the meeting
[11:43]  Dahlia Trimble: Andrew, its ok, as long as you have it implemented, tested, and committed by next tuesday :)
[11:44]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:44]  Justin Clark-Casey: yep
[11:44]  Andrew Hellershanks thinks he still has some fine tuning to do on ossearch for event listings.
[11:46]  Andrew Hellershanks: Should I leave so you can continue talking about me? It seems awfully quiet in here.  ;)
[11:47]  Caro Fayray: listening:)
[11:47]  TBG Renfold: < same
[11:47]  Justin Clark-Casey is debugging something else at the same time
[11:47]  Mata Hari: don't think there's much else....kind of in a holding pattern until 0.8 I assume
[11:47]  Dahlia Trimble: we were talking about invenory glitches
[11:47]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was distracted by the major downpour and minor thunderstorm or I would have been here earlier.
[11:48]  Kayaker Magic: I'd like to bring up a mantis #6743
[11:48]  Caro Fayray: we had that too
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: it's far easier not ot have big changes right now. Once 0.8 is out it will be more open season again,
[11:48]  Justin Clark-Casey: though not everybody pays attention to that ;)
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: I need to go over my pending bug reports to see if there are ones I need to mantis.
[11:48]  Mata Hari: yeah, totally understand that
[11:48]  Kayaker Magic: There are complex rules about what llGetRot returns, and most of them work in OpenSim,
[11:48]  Kayaker Magic: until the avatar sits down, then it returns the wrong thing.
[11:48]  Andrew Hellershanks: How close are we to 0.8 now?
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: I am very close to putting out 0.8 rc2 but probably will not have time today
[11:49]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok
[11:49]  Justin Clark-Casey: a lot of regression have now been fixed.
[11:50]  Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          9bae636: 2014-05-24 00:12:23 +0100 (Unix/Mono)
[11:54]  Justin Clark-Casey: any other topics right now?
[11:54]  Andrew Hellershanks: Is the bug re: line number reporting for LSL errors completely squashed?
[11:55]  Richardus Raymaker: good question to know
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: Alerci put an additioanl patch in mantis 6764
[11:55]  Justin Clark-Casey: would be great if I could have confirmation that it improves matters further
[11:55]  Andrew Hellershanks: Right. I haven't had a chance to run some of my own tests. Hope to do that soon.
[11:57]  Mata Hari doesn't know how to or I would
[11:57]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have large scripts I can use for testing.
[11:57]  Kayaker Magic: People have differing ideas about that "large" means in a script...
[11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: Almost 1,900 lines
[11:58]  Richardus Raymaker: 10 goto 10
[11:58]  Mata Hari: I can test it on one that is 5 scripts working together with a total of around 4000 lines
[11:58]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have two scripts working together that are almost 3,000 lines
[11:59]  Richardus Raymaker: thats big
[11:59]  Justin Clark-Casey: I am surprised anbody can write such a big script in LSL without their eyeballs popping out
[11:59]  Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus, yup. And it was a pain when the line numbers for errors were out by what seems like hundreds of lines.
[11:59]  Mata Hari: or more :p
[12:00]  Andrew Hellershanks: justin, not much different than writing a program in some other language.
[12:00]  Mata Hari: other than being really, really clumsy
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, but you don't get nice stuff like splitting it up into logical files, object oreintation, etc
[12:00]  Justin Clark-Casey: instead you have to do insane things with strided lists, etc.
[12:01]  Kayaker Magic: Then there are the fireStorm pre-processor issues, doubles the size of your script and fails to display errors on lines above around 1900
[12:01]  Mata Hari: and passing strings back and forth
[12:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: I did split it up.
[12:01]  Andrew Hellershanks: OO is for the weak. ;)
[12:01]  Richardus Raymaker: yes. lsls is not the mosty nice lanbgauge for complex things
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I guess you cna split it up, then you have to have some bespoke inter-script comms
[12:01]  Mata Hari: assembler!
[12:01]  Justin Clark-Casey: I do think it's a fine language for small things but I wouldn't want to write anything big in it...
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: OO? meh. Replace LSL with Forth :P
[12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: yeah. My two scripts communicate with each other at times.
[12:02]  Andrew Hellershanks: Dahlia, that would be neat.
[12:02]  Richardus Raymaker: pain full andsrew, especiall if iths physic object and use sensors. that combination is so problematic. or where
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: or better yet, List :)
[12:02]  Dahlia Trimble: errr Lisp
[12:03]  Kayaker Magic: listhp
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: ok, I need to go and attend to business
[12:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey: thanks for the meeting, folks
[12:03]  Mata Hari: just write it straight in binary.....
[12:03]  Sarah Kline: byes
[12:03]  Dahlia Trimble: cya jcc
[12:03]  Kayaker Magic: bye!
[12:03]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, tc, Justin
[12:03]  Mata Hari: bye Justin
[12:03]  Caro Fayray: bye justin and ty
[12:03]  Annabelle Fanshaw: waves
[12:03]  dan banner: bye all
[12:03]  Justin Clark-Casey waves
[12:04]  dan banner is Offline
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