Chat log from the meeting on 2014-02-05

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[11:07] Mircea Kitsune: regions with a size other than 512 x 512
 
[11:07] Mircea Kitsune: regions with a size other than 512 x 512
 
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: variable regions. its the replacemnet for mega regions. ok. more a new type of mega region
 
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: variable regions. its the replacemnet for mega regions. ok. more a new type of mega region
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[12:10] Mircea Kitsune: ok
 
[12:10] Mircea Kitsune: ok
 
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[[Category:Office Hour Logs]]

Latest revision as of 14:20, 25 October 2015

[11:07] Mircea Kitsune: regions with a size other than 512 x 512
[11:07] Richardus Raymaker: variable regions. its the replacemnet for mega regions. ok. more a new type of mega region
[11:08] Mircea Kitsune: Sorry, 256 x 256
[11:08] tx Oh: ah.
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: Single regions that can be larger than 256 x 256 but in multiples(?) of 256m on a side.
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: only problem i have installed the server again. but my var dont show terrain
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks is online.
[11:08] delta zed: I convertd some space to bullet physics for a while but i still have avatar movement issues so i went back toode... novar for me
[11:08] Andrew Hellershanks: They are an alternative to mega regions.
[11:08] Richardus Raymaker: hi andrew
[11:08] logger sewell: Hi Justin
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Richardus
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Justin.
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: hi justin
[11:09] tx Oh: huhu justin
[11:09] Jos Joszpe: hello from me too :0
[11:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hey folks
[11:09] Andrew Hellershanks: That bug report I filed the other day was useful as someone else provided a patch.
[11:09] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi JCC
[11:09] Richardus Raymaker: tried to poke misterblue. but he's hideing under the memory chips i think
[11:10] Dev Random: Andrew: that was my patch. Did you try it out?
[11:10] Richardus Raymaker: hello dev. whats that patch doing ?
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: Dev, I have to check. I don't remember at the moment. I think it looked ok.
[11:11] tx Oh: is there a way to get the uuid of a region? i just forgot it and have no .ini backup of it
[11:11] Dev Random: basically getting an exact match for UUID if possible, othewise grabbing longest..
[11:11] Richardus Raymaker: i wish bullet did have smooth walking and flying
[11:11] Andrew Hellershanks: I havne't applied it to my standalone. I'll have to check the grid.
[11:12] Richardus Raymaker: but i firts need to know why i dont see the pinhead on my var. no terrain visible at all. only with some cams you see flash
[11:12] Andrew Hellershanks: tx: The region uuid will be in the regions table
[11:13] tx Oh: andrew: but it's on osgrid and i can't access it, the old regions db is also deleted
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: maybe not if it has been removed
[11:13] Justin Clark-Casey: if the regions db is deleted... then you don't have any region data anymore anyway, right?
[11:14] Andrew Hellershanks: Dev: No, I haven't applied it to the grid code yet.
[11:14] tx Oh: yepp. not so important. i may ask one of the admins later
[11:15] Dev Random: k.. just wondering.. Ihad to contrive the situation, so wanted to make sure it worked for real.
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: tx no oar ?
[11:15] Andrew Hellershanks: You could also find region UUID in the land tables but that would be harder to track down.
[11:15] tx Oh: ok. i need to log off. rl is calling
[11:15] Richardus Raymaker: bye tx
[11:15] tx Oh: yes, i have the oar, is the uuid in there?
[11:15] Mircea Kitsune: Someone still plays RL? ;)
[11:16] Mircea Kitsune: Anyay, later, take care
[11:16] Andrew Hellershanks: Dev: Right. I will have to try that on a test grid or in my standalone.
[11:16] Dahlia Trimble is online.
[11:16] tx Oh: richardus: the uuid is somewhere in the oar?
[11:16] Mircea Kitsune: BTW. I had a question about var regions, wasn't sure if this was clarified
[11:17] tx Oh sits in a cafe
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm still puzzled about a different problem. I have over 4.8 million entries in the estate manager table.
[11:17] Andrew Hellershanks: s/have/had/
[11:17] Richardus Raymaker: no, but if you have the oar, you can pick a new uuid and load the oar back
[11:17] Mircea Kitsune: Will there still be some way so viewers without support for them can access them? Only logical way would be for Opensim to trick the viewer into seeing multiple neighboring regions, in case it's detected that the viewer can't combine
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: sorry everyone crazy morning for me, doing 10 things at once here
[11:17] tx Oh: but the space is occupied by the old regions uuid "-)
[11:17] Dahlia Trimble: hi :)
[11:17] Mircea Kitsune: I might use var regions sometime too, but wouldn't want people to require special viewers to come over
[11:17] Nebadon Izumi: i will keep checking, if anyone needs me directly ping me on IM
[11:18] tx Oh: huhu nebadon
[11:18] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Hi Dahlia
[11:18] Mircea Kitsune: hi
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: hi dahlia
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks: tx: Could you get the region uuid from your avatar home location or your last location?
[11:18] Richardus Raymaker: i like to know if something changed with var regions because the terrain is not visible
[11:18] tx Oh: andrew" i will ask an admin
[11:18] Simulator Version v0.5 shouts: OpenSim 0.8.0 Dev          966ab21: 2014-01-24 00:17:39 +0000 (Unix/Mono)
[11:18] tx Oh: ok, cya
[11:18] Andrew Hellershanks nods to tx
[11:18] tx Oh: /waves
[11:18] Dahlia Trimble: no justin today?
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: I saw him login
[11:19] Justin Clark-Casey hides
[11:19] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: haa
[11:19] Andrew Hellershanks: He is here.
[11:19] tx Oh: justin also likes to have my seat :-)
[11:19] Dahlia Trimble: oh he's hiding :P
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin is not as easy to spot as he once once as he is no longer wearing a yellow outfit. :)
[11:20] Andrew Hellershanks: s/he once once/he once was/
[11:20] Richardus Raymaker: still easy to spot, some place. only whote outfit :)
[11:20] Dahlia Trimble: well I can never spot anyone anyway
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: I still need to take some time to file a whole bunch of bug reports.
[11:21] Andrew Hellershanks: Filed a few this past week but I still have around 10 more.
[11:22] Dahlia Trimble: bugs? pffft. There are no bugs, only features :P
[11:22] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:22] delta zed: three is a terrain config option in the ini file for var regions... ... did you set that properly?
[11:22] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, ohh then am on the right track with screaming for years that microsoft need to stop with adding features :P
[11:23] Dahlia Trimble: :)
[11:23] Mircea Kitsune: I'd imagine var regions mean that both terrain and prims are part of that one large region
[11:23] Richardus Raymaker: Dahlia, the only var config i know is the one in regions.ini. besides that config worked fine a few weeks ago
[11:24] Dahlia Trimble: hmm?
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: but now spontanic a compleet new install with old configs show invisible pinhead
[11:24] Sarah Kline: Var regions are not perfect...its work in progress
[11:24] Richardus Raymaker: hi sarah. i know. i hope i can catch misterblue tonight. maby he knows more
[11:26] Dev Random: Since there's a lull, I'm going to throw in a question...
My Radar window "distance" column changes colour at 20m here, but I can hear Justin from here (22.5m). 
Seems to change colour at say_distance in other sims.
Wonder if there's something special about this one.
[11:26] Dahlia Trimble: Dev, there is a config variable which allows setting chat distance
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: not sure if the radar use fixt value's the opensim regions can have custom settings
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: usually its set to 30
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: SL uses 20 I believe
[11:27] Richardus Raymaker: yes. i think its hard coded in viewer
[11:27] Dahlia Trimble: for radar it probably is
[11:28] Andrew Hellershanks: Chat distance may be set longer here so that everyone can see chat during the meetings.
[11:28] Dev Random: also.... http://code.google.com/p/singularity-viewer/issues/detail?id=1354
[11:28] Dev Random: Singularity devs say it should change
[11:29] Dev Random: trivial issue, just wondered.
[11:29] Dahlia Trimble: maybe ask in IRC in #SingularityViewer
[11:30] Dahlia Trimble: I suspect other viewers have similar problems
[11:30] Dev Random: true. Firestorm is same. that's why I wondered if it might be problem with OS.
[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: no, it's a featyre :)
[11:31] Dev Random: ha
[11:31] Dahlia Trimble: *feature even
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: I believe chat distance is longer here
[11:31] Justin Clark-Casey: it's a server-side thing
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey wraps up one other voice and other IM convo
[11:32] Richardus Raymaker: firestorm is running a bit behind singularity sofar i see. at least with var's
[11:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't believe there's any way yet of communicating voice distances to the viewer from the simulator
[11:32] Dahlia Trimble: doesnt firestorm wait between releases?
[11:33] Richardus Raymaker: still running the lastest firestorm beta release
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: well, any other opensim topics today?
[11:34] Mircea Kitsune: Can't think of much sadly
[11:34] Mircea Kitsune: My question wasn't answered I think though:
[11:34] Fearghus McMahon: hi all
[11:34] Mircea Kitsune: Will there still be some way so viewers without support for them can access them? Only logical way would be for Opensim to trick the viewer into seeing multiple neighboring regions, in case it's detected that the viewer can't combine
[11:34] Justin Clark-Casey: i'm going to be on holiday or in budapest from thurs to mon so wo't be very active
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: that's the kind of thing megaregions did, but I suspect it would be extremely difficult or impossible for var regions
[11:35] Mircea Kitsune: ok
[11:35] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, I know of no plans for such
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: keep your laptop home justing ! :)
[11:35] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: nah, I'm taking 2 laptops
[11:35] Richardus Raymaker: omg..
[11:35] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. Nice thing would have been if they were treated as megaregions for normal viewers, and var regions when support for that is detected
[11:35] Mircea Kitsune: But likely hard so yeah
[11:35] Fearghus McMahon: ah a real one....and a decoy?
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: a big one and a small one
[11:36] Mircea Kitsune: BTW. Will megaregions eventually be deprecated and unsupported? I imagine there might be less of a purpose for them now
[11:36] Mircea Kitsune: Or var regions and megaregions somehow combined\
[11:36] Mircea Kitsune: Turned into one system
[11:36] Richardus Raymaker: fearghus, i guess just to keep in balance with wlaking
[11:36] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, I bet it could work but I dont think anyone is willing to implement it
[11:36] Fearghus McMahon: lol
[11:36] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: I believe robert wanted to keep megaregions working, though I think there are bugs atm (?)
[11:36] Andrew Hellershanks: On holiday and taking multiple laptops? I would leave mine at home. My laptop died so I could take one of justins 2 since he has a "spare". :)
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: but megaregions were always a workaround so there's no sense in keeping them around forever
[11:37] Mircea Kitsune nods, agrees
[11:37] Dahlia Trimble: anyway varregions only use one UDP port, fooling the viewer into thinking it was many regions would require many UDP ports
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: the small one is a netbook so not much good for anything really serious
[11:37] Richardus Raymaker: i dont think mega\s get depricated for now. but the get possible less support.
[11:37] Justin Clark-Casey: even the big one is very long in the tooth now
[11:37] Fearghus McMahon: oh a question...though not sure if it was asked already or even appropriate now......whats the effect of the robuust update here on osgrid?....does it have an effect on inventory?
[11:37] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, right now I just need something I could use on my work bench where I work on some electronics stuff.
[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: Richardus, noboby is supporting megas anymore
[11:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I have supported megas in the past
[11:38] Dahlia Trimble: oh didnt know that :/
[11:38] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, not wanted to sound so negative :)
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I would look to get them working again if robert doesn't first, but I wouldn't support them forever
[11:39] Mircea Kitsune: I wonder another thing too: Will var regions be a separate system and module? I assume the best way would be to just specify a region size. If you leave it at the default of 256, it works as before. If greater or smaller, it can activate the "var" system
[11:39] Dahlia Trimble: I dont think robert is planning on working on them but I could be wrong
[11:39] Richardus Raymaker: but mega's have already just a very bad side because its useing way to much udp ports
[11:39] Justin Clark-Casey: I think he said he would but I may also be wrong
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Varregion shows the details
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: Micea, its already working that way without module sofar i know. you just set the size
[11:40] Mircea Kitsune: oh, thanks
[11:40] Mircea Kitsune: great!
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik they are not a separate system, they are fully integrated into core. I expect that "normal" 256x256 regions are a special case of var region really
[11:40] Richardus Raymaker: 256 is normal and above that mine is goinbg to var
[11:40] Justin Clark-Casey: though I havne't looked at the code in detail
[11:41] Richardus Raymaker: But, i need to get my pinhead visible first :O
[11:41] Andrew Hellershanks: Dev, in testing the code patch, should check that the "order" of the two entries doesn't affect the outcome.
[11:41] Dahlia Trimble: I made a var, the corner region had a pinhead and the rest of it was flat
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: at the moment, I expect master is still pretty unstable
[11:42] Dahlia Trimble: errr.... the corner 256
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... I see two huge problems there IMO. Var regions don't work with ODE, and they can't be neighbored to regions of other sizes.
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: Will both be fixed in time?
[11:42] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, my map show the pinhead corretc. if am teleporting to the pinhead its there. but invisible
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I may well look at var regions in ODE, though I would wait until all other bugs are ironed out
[11:42] Dev Random: Andrew: can do.
[11:42] Justin Clark-Casey: I have no idea about neighbouring, you would really have to ask robert
[11:42] Mircea Kitsune: ok
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: Richardus, oh, I cant even teleport to mine, have to log in to it
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: Mircea. sofar i know you can ahve other neighborns with var's now. it works fine for me if i have 2 normals next to var
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: viewer crashes when I try to teleport
[11:43] Mircea Kitsune: Nice
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia, you maby use older version ?
[11:43] Richardus Raymaker: dahlia. yup. think you betetr try newer version
[11:43] Dahlia Trimble: no its like a couple days old
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: 2 days
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: hmm. it works fine with singularity 1.8.5
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: except no visible default terrain. not with todo terrain fill right now
[11:44] Richardus Raymaker: no own grid
[11:44] Dahlia Trimble: oh I think may be osgrid issue also, not sure
[11:44] Mircea Kitsune: Oh... BTW
[11:45] Mircea Kitsune: Regarding Opensim topics. There's something that's been much in my mind recently. But it's an Opensim + viewer thing, and viewers would all need to be modified if this were ever to happen
[11:45] Richardus Raymaker: well, its anyway not good idea to use imprudence as example.
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: One thing I kinda hate about SL is how you have a limited number of shapes to work with. Cube, Sphere, Cylinder, etc... with hollow, taper, so on. I'd really love to see a flexible system sometime, in which shapes and their properties can too be invented and shared.
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: What do you think? Could Opensim, and in time some viewers, support this?
[11:46] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea? use mesh
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: People could create xml files in viers for example, that define how surfaces and vertices go. Opensim can store and apply them... well I dunno details right away
[11:46] Sarah Kline: try making mesh shapes to build with
[11:46] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, mesh is mesh
[11:47] Mircea Kitsune: But I'm thinking of realtime primitive shapes
[11:47] Mircea Kitsune: Ideally, it will be possible to edit surfaces in-world like you can in a 3D program. Cut, extrude, subdivide, manipulate each vertice. THAT would be the real thing
[11:47] Richardus Raymaker: mesh is now the best solution. maby far in the future something with voxels. but thats really far away
[11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Ahh... voxels
[11:48] Sarah Kline: voxel editing ^^
[11:48] Mircea Kitsune: If only SL primitives could be removed and replaced with that :)
[11:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I think it would be great to have in-world mesh editing,
[11:48] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd vote for that.
[11:48] Dahlia Trimble: ya part of the problem is most tools for manipulating mesh have had several hundred person-years of developement behind them
[11:48] Mircea Kitsune: Justin: Yes. As a replacement to primitive shapes which are hard coded in the viewer
[11:48] Sarah Kline: Cloud party had some really good tools
[11:48] Dahlia Trimble: and duplicating that in a viewer would be a huge undertaking
[11:48] Richardus Raymaker: justin, sl have very nice inworld tools. you build with prims and then make it mesh. still limited. but i wish soemone made one for opensim
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: How about some sort of OpenSimulator/Blender bridge?
[11:49] Richardus Raymaker: i can call one in sl, mesh studio
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: that would be... a huge amount of complex work :)
[11:49] Mircea Kitsune: Andrew: I'd hate having to work with two programs at once. As much as I love Blender
[11:49] Dahlia Trimble: Andrew, it's called collada import
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: though I think something similar has been done in the past with some other system
[11:49] Andrew Hellershanks: dahlia, yea, but that keeps adding new assets to the databases.
[11:49] Mircea Kitsune: What I'd indeed like is SL someday supporting the ability to play with vertices as you wish. And getting rid of the existing hardcoded primitive shapes
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: integration of a model ling program with a virtual environment in real time
[11:49] Justin Clark-Casey: still not collaborative editing though
[11:50] Mircea Kitsune: Now I doubt Linden will do that so quickly. But Opensim could support the ability to store individual vertex points... or custom shape definitions
[11:50] Dev Random: I'd like to have "locked" groups of prims. 
So when I link my component into a build, and then unlink the build, it's still a component, not a group of prims.
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: I think most of the work would be viewer side, as Dahlia days
[11:50] Dahlia Trimble: Linden has looked at it in the past and Ive seen comments that it would be cost prohibitive
[11:50] Mircea Kitsune: yah. Opensim viewers would have to do this
[11:50] Justin Clark-Casey: dev: sounds like multi-level linksets
[11:50] Dev Random: zacly
[11:51] Mircea Kitsune: Dahlia: Why would it be bad on costs?
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, come be done in the simulator, cutting through nasty cruft
[11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I made a new avatar for SL the other day to see what they do for noobs nowdays
[11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it was all mesh on the way in.
[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, because most mesh modeling tools have several hundred person-years of developemnt behind them
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: but again, rlies on extensive changes viewer side, though probably easier than changing the prim editing systems
[11:51] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: terrain, builds, everyyhing
[11:51] Dahlia Trimble: not to mention the patent minefields
[11:51] Richardus Raymaker: well the mesh export function in the viewers. is not default healty for Land Impact costs to.
[11:51] Justin Clark-Casey: probably changes to the protocol as well
[11:51] Mircea Kitsune: ah
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: what about voxels ;)
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: it would be already nice to start with soem working Li in the mesh uploader and costs
[11:52] Mircea Kitsune: And mesh export in the viewer could be nice too. So primitives could be turned into meshes. Though that might not be so helpful
[11:52] Dahlia Trimble: could probably do something with voxels but getting voxels to look like mesh models isnt easy either
[11:52] Justin Clark-Casey: though I expect mixing voxels, prims and mesh would be .... not so easy
[11:52] Richardus Raymaker: justin, i cant find the voxels. the always end under the carpet :)
[11:52] Dahlia Trimble: most voxels look like minecraft :P
[11:52] Andrew Hellershanks: Richardus: Li -> Lithium ??
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: Land Impact
[11:53] Andrew Hellershanks: ah
[11:53] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah. My idea was, meshes could be created entirely in-world. No longer in Blender then uploaded. But this would mean giving SL a full 3D modeling system, from in-world. Who will ever code all that...
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: mircea: singularity had experimental support for mesh export, and turning prims into meshes I believe
[11:53] Mircea Kitsune: nice
[11:53] delta zed: created in world and then uploaded???
[11:53] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: yes, it works
[11:53] Richardus Raymaker: Mircera, viewers have mesh export prims to mesh. but...
[11:53] Sarah Kline: it would be easier to stick avatars inside of Blender instead
[11:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I think land impact is a singificant topic. Nobody likes limits but it's a problem when somebody uses megatextures throughout a sim
[11:54] Dahlia Trimble: voxels in opensim: http://dahliaisland.wwweb3d.net:8099/screenshots/wtfMinecruft.jpg
[11:54] Justin Clark-Casey: dahlia: how did you build those?
[11:54] Richardus Raymaker: justin. without some Li indication and mesh costs. people still go use and upload  bad mesh. because there's no reference in opensim
[11:55] delta zed: I'd be willing to bet the 3D printing stuff will generate differrnt design tools..and options for much simpler in-world design paradigms than merging the blender interfacce
[11:55] Justin Clark-Casey: richardus: yeah, I think it's a sifnificant missing thing
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: really need to install my old duke nukem 3d :)
[11:55] Dahlia Trimble: justin, its a region module which converts geometry to voxels and displays them with box prims
[11:55] Vivian Klees: upload it to the beta grid first to see
[11:55] Richardus Raymaker: thats what i do vivian. but not everybody likes , wants or can use and upload mesh to sl
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: mircea wants soemthing what sim city use as tool i think
[11:56] Richardus Raymaker: but its longbtime ago i have seen that build tool
[11:57] Mircea Kitsune: Not as familiar with recent Simcity releases, but what I'm thinking of basically is having "A Blender / Maya / 3D max inside the viewer and working directly in-world"
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Just thought of something else. Land has the concept of traffic but the stat is always shown as 0. Is it possible to enable traffic stats for regions or is there no code written to support that feature?
[11:57] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: if someone builds that, then they'll charge $4K like Autocad
[11:57] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: Can't say for sure, but I don't think supporting code exists yet
[11:57] Dahlia Trimble: Mircea, I wouldn't hold my breath :)
[11:57] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, ok.
[11:57] Mircea Kitsune: I know... it would be very difficult to do :P
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: there is LandData.Dwell, which I'm guessing is the stat
[11:58] Andrew Hellershanks: Justin, yeah, I think that is the name.
[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: it wouldnt surprise me if LL had spend $10 million developing the viewer, and it wouldnt surprise me if developing maya and max costs more
[11:58] Justin Clark-Casey: andrew: nothing ever sets it though, as far as I can see
[11:58] Dahlia Trimble: and blender has zillions of devs
[11:59] Sarah Kline: then we could have NPC's to generate traffic
[11:59] Justin Clark-Casey: but in principle a module could collect avatar data and calculate some kind of dwell number :)
[11:59] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: camping chairs FTW!
[11:59] Mircea Kitsune: Still, the overall problem is that... building has divided between too many things recently. Basic primitives, then sculpties, now mesh... would be awesome if the viewers in Opensim's world at least could centralize it to one, complete, global thing
[11:59] Sarah Kline: lol
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks: The dwell stat was always a bit up in the air in SL as to what it meant or how it was measured.
[11:59] Andrew Hellershanks grins at BlueWall
[11:59] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: :)
[12:00] Cuteulala Artis is offline.
[12:00] Richardus Raymaker: well, the seems to fight bots still there. no land buying bots allowed soon on mainland in sl
[12:00] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: Justin, have yougiven any thought to NPC having inventory?
[12:01] Fearghus McMahon: if there is no land to buy...they bots will die out on their own......or start slaughtering avatars in SL
[12:01] Andrew Hellershanks: oh, I still haven't finished enabling some of the os functions to support NPCs
[12:01] Mircea Kitsune: Would it help if they did? I assume they can be scripted to create any item at will
[12:01] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: not really. Would require a lot of changes, especially if one wanted any kind of persistence
[12:01] Mircea Kitsune: Although... a NPC's items still need to be stored somewhere
[12:02] Mircea Kitsune: yeah
[12:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: just shrott term would be ok
[12:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: maybe in a datastructure in the module?
[12:02] Richardus Raymaker: Box it mercia and place it in the bookcase
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: probably not easy since one would have to store data in memory which isn't done for avatars
[12:02] Mircea Kitsune: BlueWall: Easiest way now is to have the script that spawns NPC's also handle what items they give and such. Sadly
[12:02] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: the creating prim could supply it wne created.
[12:02] Justin Clark-Casey: probably would require quite a lot of refactoring to provide different inventory methods for npcs compared to avatars
[12:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: I was playing with some of those and attachments.
[12:03] delta zed: NPC attachements work fine as inventory holders
[12:03] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: having an inventory would allow them to be moved to another region ?
[12:03] Dahlia Trimble: an attachment can give, at least in SL
[12:04] Justin Clark-Casey: bluewall: well, that would mean putting the inventory to a service or transferring it with them when they crossed regions
[12:04] delta zed: and they transport vias the notcard generated so all you have to do is replicate the notecard across region borders
[12:04] delta zed: assuming the same asset service
[12:04] Richardus Raymaker: why replicate the notcecard. it would be nice if its just reading the notecard from grid by uuid
[12:05] Mircea Kitsune: BTW... I sorta had one more question about var regions...
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: technical posisble not possible
[12:05] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: ok, thanks. I was looking into that a few days ago and had some thoughts. I will look at it further if I get some time
[12:05] Mircea Kitsune: Will they allow us to create something like this, within a single region? http://www.desktophdw.com/wallstock/nature-pc-wallpapers-free-downloadwallpaper-water-nature-landscape-desktop-high-definition-desktop-wallpapers-gialxlf.jpg
[12:05] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: it looks a littl tricky to pull it off w/o eating up memory
[12:05] Mircea Kitsune: Maybe not quite as big but still
[12:05] Richardus Raymaker: windlight / lightshare with the right viewer settings is doing already part
[12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Meant in terms of size, and huge complete landscapes
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: well, you could technically do that now with a higher server-side default draw distance, albeit with region crossings
[12:06] vegaslon plutonian: something that big would be impossible to terraform you would have to create it in another program and upload
[12:06] Justin Clark-Casey: it will probablyi be your viewer graphics card that starts crying first
[12:06] Dahlia Trimble: I think there are limits on terrain texturing in varregions
[12:06] Mircea Kitsune: Yeah, but with a lot of regions it is somewhat harder
[12:07] Dahlia Trimble: may need to use mesh terrain
[12:07] Mircea Kitsune: true true
[12:07] Dahlia Trimble: and mesh makes a lousy terrain
[12:07] Mircea Kitsune: Ah. Mesh terrain would kinda tuin the purpose in a sense
[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: Dahlia. i think for good terrain you betetr use mesh
[12:07] Mircea Kitsune: There is a sim on the main grid though which uses a huge mesh to create the immersive terrain outside if simulator bounds
[12:07] Richardus Raymaker: did nebadon not have a mesh terrain soemwhere to ?
[12:07] Dahlia Trimble: for good terrain you need a special shader but cant do that without hacking up the viewer
[12:08] logger sewell: I need to get back to work ya'l have a good week :)
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: i have a seen a sim in opensim that where com pleet mesh.
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: includeing the terrain.
[12:08] Richardus Raymaker: bye logger
[12:08] Fearghus McMahon: mesh terrain......I want "physical" water....*duck*
[12:09] Mircea Kitsune: bye
[12:09] Andrew Hellershanks: I should be heading out shortly.
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: alright, I need to attend to some other stuff too
[12:09] Justin Clark-Casey: goodbye folks
[12:09] BlueWall.Slade @gateway.bluewallvirtual.net:8002: thanks JCC
[12:09] Fearghus McMahon: tc Justin
[12:10] Justin Clark-Casey: won't be around much wed to next mon but will be here next tues
[12:10] Mircea Kitsune: But yeah. Overall it is somewhat hard to find a good way of doing the 3D models in a virtual space like SL really. I think primitives and to some extent meshes are kinda a thing of the past  too. Bu eh... that's sorta beyond Opensim's scope
[12:10] Richardus Raymaker: Fearghus, just want opensim version ic an do what i want , its close but just did bite me again
[12:10] Mircea Kitsune: ok
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